Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Dean champion on January 24, 2022, 08:56:37 pm
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had an absolute nightmare with my Genie hot box from The cleaning warehouse. Just had them remove it a few weeks back as it kept shutting down during the day and was running at 22c (from reel not brush head) between shut downs, had it back a week running at 36c (from reel not brush head) and now it’s shutting down again and running at 22c.
Back on the phone with them today asking what are they going to do next about it and there getting back to me after speaking to the boss. Already lost 2days work for the removal and re fit and £100 in diesel getting there and back as it’s 6 hours each way. What would you guys expect from them now if you was in my position??
I would say they have been more then helpful with trying to rectify the issue but I’m back to square one now after today
What does your guys water come out at from reel as I don’t think mine has ever got to the optimal temp ???
Thanks
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Nightmare when things go wrong.
Do you know what size heater it is?
If it’s a 9kw then you should get scalding hot from it.
5 kw then 40 degrees should still be easy.
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5kw heater but it’s is not a webasto heater like others
They said It can hit 45c but only hit 36c at best on my one which I feel now has not been right from the off
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I feel your pain mate ,having lost two days work,it all sounds very stressful
I fully appreciate the benefits of hot water,but more things can go wrong,I use cold water ( not the best in winter ) less things to go wrong,and in the event of breakdowns easier to repair yourself
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What I would suggest for when you get it sorted, is have some sort of pressure relief valve fitted or recycle feature.
That means hot water will go back to the tank warming it up and giving you hotter water as the day goes on, but also it will stop the heater shutting down during the day which can stop a lot of problems. They like to keep running.
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had an absolute nightmare with my Genie hot box from The cleaning warehouse. Just had them remove it a few weeks back as it kept shutting down during the day and was running at 22c (from reel not brush head) between shut downs, had it back a week running at 36c (from reel not brush head) and now it’s shutting down again and running at 22c.
Back on the phone with them today asking what are they going to do next about it and there getting back to me after speaking to the boss. Already lost 2days work for the removal and re fit and £100 in diesel getting there and back as it’s 6 hours each way. What would you guys expect from them now if you was in my position??
I would say they have been more then helpful with trying to rectify the issue but I’m back to square one now after today
What does your guys water come out at from reel as I don’t think mine has ever got to the optimal temp ???
Thanks
You really need a 9kw heater to get decent heat to your reel and hose/brush....
Any window cleaners who have had the 5kw heaters installed have only managed to get luke warm water at best to their brush head at this time of year....
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Also why is it shutting down during the day?
Are you plugging the return valves back into your tank between jobs?
Do you fire it up first thing in the morning before driving to your first job?
What battery bank are you using?(you need at least 2 x105ah batteries in tandem)
Are you charging them up every night?
Do you have a split charge relay fitted too?
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Insufficient batteries and charging can reduce heat from your heater...
Not enough fuel in your tank can also shut your heater down
Not plugging back into return valves within a few mins will also cause your heater to shut down
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5kw heater but it’s is not a webasto heater like others
They said It can hit 45c but only hit 36c at best on my one which I feel now has not been right from the off
What make of diesel heater is it then?
I'm sure all hydronic diesel heaters work in the same way. They are basically designed as engine preheaters for use in areas that experience subzero temperatures.
When they are fired up they heat the coolant water in the engine to bring the engine up to normal operating temperature. When they are first fired up they produce heat in full output mode. Once the coolant water reaches a predetermined temperature the heater (furnace) then goes into a reduced heat output mode. Once the coolant water has reached its highest temperature (around 80 degrees C) (I can't remember the exact settings) the heater automatically goes into shutdown mode. This shutdown can take around 90 secs on a Webasto Thermo Top C. As the heater is still switched on, the heater's water pump will continue to circulate coolant water.
If the coolant water drops to say 65 degrees, the heater will reactivate, which will take another 90 secs.
What the wfp suppliers have done is adapted this principle to the window cleaning industry.
The heater heats up an internal water circuit which includes a header tank and 1 or 2 heat exchangers depending on the system.
The heat exchangers are plate to plate heat exchangers. They zap or transfer the heat produced in the internal circuit to the water being pumped to your pole.
The first issue. If you start your diesel heater as you are about to start your first clean, a 5kw heater is never going to heat your water fast enough, and it will take forever to get any heat at the brush head. So the recommendation is to start your heater on the way to your first job.
Let's look at the second issue. Let's say your heater has gone into shutdown mode as its reached its highest internal circuit temperature. You start cleaning windows. The temperature will be zapped from the internal circuit bringing it down to that 65 degree mark. The heater will then fire up again and take around 90 seconds to come fully into heat mode. While this is happening, your water started off hot and went cold when the internal temperature dropped well below 65 degrees until the heater fully started. Now you are back to the first issue. Added to this, what little heat that was in the water was lost to the environment from the hose on the ground.
One solution is to fit a pressure relief valve after your hot box to divert hot water back to your tank when you switch your pole tap off. Yes, your pump will run all the time, but it will keep your heater working. Ionics use this solution with their hot water system. They use a 65psi relief valve.
My solution was to add another heat exchanger, a 3rd Shurflo pump (I have a 2 man system) and a 12v digital temperature controller. With my 9kw Webasto heater I have set my controller to activate this 3rd pump at 83 degrees C and switch it off at 78 degrees C. So if I spend an hour talking, my heater will just remain in this reduced heat output mode until I start cleaning again. Even although I have set my output water temperature to my pole at 50 degrees C at the heater, it takes a long time before I feel any benefit at the brush head. In fact, with the hose running across a length of cold grass, the temperature at the brush head is barely lukewarm.
My gut is telling me that it's an application issue rather than a mechanical issue with your heater.
TBH my water isn't set hot enough for me to see any major cleaning rate improvement. But it's nice to have more manageable hoses. I can adjust the mixer valve to obtain a higher output water temperature, but if I do, I starve the second heat exchanger of heat.
Many years ago I made up a test rig to experiment with diesel hot water systems.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1643103971_Various june 2016 197.jpg)
A 5kw barely managed to heat 1.5lpm of water to my brush head from 9 degrees to 35 degrees C. The calculation stated that to do this the heater would have to generate 2.65kw of heat. At first glance a 5kw should be able to do this, but nearly 50% of the heat produced by these heaters goes out of the exhaust and other heat loss areas.
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Spruce, wtf are you doing cleaning windows? You’re too clever mate!
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Nearly spat my drink out looking at that contraption Spruce :D
How do even conceive such an idea, Legend.
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Strange, I have a 5kw Webasto on a boat that heats the hot water tank and radiators so can’t be that bad 🤷♂️
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Talking of hot water. What happened to the fella who was going to go into production?
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Strange, I have a 5kw Webasto on a boat that heats the hot water tank and radiators so can’t be that bad 🤷♂️
That’s totally different you are constantly re circulating the water in that scenario with window cleaning the water is exiting the loop onto the glass
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Talking of hot water. What happened to the fella who was going to go into production?
Chris dall do you mean ?? He’s gone very quite not Hurd a thing since .
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Talking of hot water. What happened to the fella who was going to go into production?
Chris dall do you mean ?? He’s gone very quite not Hurd a thing since .
Richie, wasn’t it?
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P&F.
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P&F.
That's the geezer
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I admired Richie for his ability to take something apart and redesign something different, like he did with those Chinese air heaters.
It's the ability some have to be able to think and act out of the proverbial box I admire. He was also trying to make an affordable hot water heater for the proverbial masses - a potential Henry Ford of the window cleaning industry.
I have no idea why he has gone quiet regarding his heater, but I did have a few concerns myself, which may have been unfounded in practice.
Hot air rises, and mounting the unit vertically with the heater on top meant pushing those exhaust gasses downhill and out through the exhaust pipe through the floor. I did think that this would cause issues. Better it would have been to have the exhaust gasses exiting through the roof of the van, but that would open a whole new can of worms. When the air heater shuts down, latent heat from the heater pipe would rise and could cause internal damage to the heater components, like warping the plastic blower fans, for example.
The other concern was the copper tube he tightly wound inside the heating tube - his heat exchanger. When heat is applied to copper, the copper degrades/deteriorates over time. Yes, there is water passing through it, but those exhaust gases are very hot, burning away at the outside of the copper tube.
Safety would be another concern. Even with a copper heat exchanger, that heating tube the exhaust gases are channelled though would be extremely hot.
I would also worry about water in the copper tube overheating when the operator turned off the tap. I think Richie incorporated a pressure relief valve that would release/bleed very hot water back into the tank. This meant the pump would have been running continuously. But I felt that was open to risk.
I'm registered with the Chinese air heater page on Facebook. Those Chinese heaters are not the most reliable. Users using the heater for the purpose it's designed for report no end of failures after a relatively short period of time in operation. Glowplugs seem to be high on the failure list, as are fuel pumps. Many heaters need to have their fuelling rate reset as some complain they over fuel and coke up very quickly. They don't appear to be set up at the factory to be a 'plug and play' item.
These, however, are just my opinions and in no way are meant to detract from the efforts Rich has put into this concept.
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Thanks all for the info specially spruce
Answers to many questions below
What make of diesel heater is it then? It’s a Russian make which name I can’t make out on the warrant card supplied with the hotbox heater, all the info is English just the name of company is Russian
Are you plugging the return valves back into your tank between jobs? I don’t do this between jobs only on the way to the first
Do you fire it up first thing in the morning before driving to your first job? Yes on timer
What battery bank are you using?(you need at least 2 x105ah batteries in tandem) Yes
Are you charging them up every night? Yes
Do you have a split charge relay
fitted too? Yes
Also why is it shutting down during the day?
System has been shutting down due to code
25 appearing on digital pane. The info below is what was sent to me by supplier when code first appeared
technical has provided me with the following in regards to the error code you are seeing.
Code 25 = The coolant is being heated up too quickly.
The cause of this is due to the pre-heater goes into the cooling down mode three times in one cycle in less than 6 months.
The method of repair for this are the following: Check the entire liquid circuit for air blocks, Check the pump, Check the overheating sensor and the temperature sensor, Check the antifreeze for suitability at current ambient temperatures.
After they had this info they removed hotbox from van to fix in there yard, they replaced coolant pump , digital panel and flushed header tank / radiator ( I think I’m saying that right) , and sent heater to supplier which was diagnosed as ok and sent for re fit. After re fit was all working in yard aswell as for me on glass for 4 days 36c from reel then code 25 appeared again shutting down system. Iv not used it since.
Wish I’d looked at getting the 9kw but didn’t even give it a thought as I’m a one man band, might get them to fit the 9kw and pay the extra if the faulty hotbox needs replacing altogether?
Thanks
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id stick with webasto...they are far more reliable...id be seriously wanting my money back if i had your problems dean....you shouldnt be having these problems mate....
it should be working and be reliable day after day for a few years at least
i hope you get it sorted!what a ball ache for you esp in this cold weather!
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Thanks all for the info specially spruce
Answers to many questions below
What make of diesel heater is it then? It’s a Russian make which name I can’t make out on the warrant card supplied with the hotbox heater, all the info is English just the name of company is Russian
Are you plugging the return valves back into your tank between jobs? I don’t do this between jobs only on the way to the first
Do you fire it up first thing in the morning before driving to your first job? Yes on timer
What battery bank are you using?(you need at least 2 x105ah batteries in tandem) Yes
Are you charging them up every night? Yes
Do you have a split charge relay
fitted too? Yes
Also why is it shutting down during the day?
System has been shutting down due to code
25 appearing on digital pane. The info below is what was sent to me by supplier when code first appeared
technical has provided me with the following in regards to the error code you are seeing.
Code 25 = The coolant is being heated up too quickly.
The cause of this is due to the pre-heater goes into the cooling down mode three times in one cycle in less than 6 months.
The method of repair for this are the following: Check the entire liquid circuit for air blocks, Check the pump, Check the overheating sensor and the temperature sensor, Check the antifreeze for suitability at current ambient temperatures.
After they had this info they removed hotbox from van to fix in there yard, they replaced coolant pump , digital panel and flushed header tank / radiator ( I think I’m saying that right) , and sent heater to supplier which was diagnosed as ok and sent for re fit. After re fit was all working in yard aswell as for me on glass for 4 days 36c from reel then code 25 appeared again shutting down system. Iv not used it since.
Wish I’d looked at getting the 9kw but didn’t even give it a thought as I’m a one man band, might get them to fit the 9kw and pay the extra if the faulty hotbox needs replacing altogether?
Thanks
There is no way that this size of heater will heat up the water too quickly. It either sounds like a faulty temperature sensor or a water pump issue. When I say water pump issue, this could also mean the controllers on the PC board as well as cabling and connectors to the water pump.
I have often wondered when suppliers would be tempted to cut costs and fit Chinese and/or Russian manufactured diesel heaters.
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had an absolute nightmare with my Genie hot box from The cleaning warehouse. Just had them remove it a few weeks back as it kept shutting down during the day and was running at 22c (from reel not brush head) between shut downs, had it back a week running at 36c (from reel not brush head) and now it’s shutting down again and running at 22c.
Back on the phone with them today asking what are they going to do next about it and there getting back to me after speaking to the boss. Already lost 2days work for the removal and re fit and £100 in diesel getting there and back as it’s 6 hours each way. What would you guys expect from them now if you was in my position??
I would say they have been more then helpful with trying to rectify the issue but I’m back to square one now after today
What does your guys water come out at from reel as I don’t think mine has ever got to the optimal temp ???
Thanks
Mine is around 65-70c after it's gone through 100m of hose(coiled on my reel)so very hot..too hot to put my hand under it for long....less when off the reel...esp in cold weather...in summer it can still be at 60c at brush head even with most of my hose off the reel...
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Iv decided that if my hotbox 5kw needs replacing all together I will upgrade to the 9kw but yet to hear back from them
Thanks for info and advice
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Couldn't they configure these heaters so if the heater malfunctions you can quickly bypass the heater and clean with cold?
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Couldn't they configure these heaters so if the heater malfunctions you can quickly bypass the heater and clean with cold?
You can run it with the boiler off and use cold water if you want to .
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How long have you had it?
if your going for a full refund (seeing as you have now let them repair it) I think it has to be less than 3 months old to be classed as not fit for purpose - if you used a credit card to pay pass it over to them to get the money back
Darran
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Iv decided that if my hotbox 5kw needs replacing all together I will upgrade to the 9kw but yet to hear back from them
Thanks for info and advice
The Chinese also make a copy of the Webasto Thermo 90 ST. I see a Russian manufacturer Autoterm do a 5kw and a 14kw. 14kw is far too big for our application.
Personally, I believe as a single operator you still need a 2 man system. This is so you can connect the second unit back up to your tank. With a controller set low you can just bleed enough heat back to your tank so your heater doesn't switch off.
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Any news Dean?
It would be great if you could get your money back and get grippatank or pure freedom to fit you a proper webasto thermo pro 90 instead of the cheap chinese/russian rubbish.....
Webasto are expensive but you get what you pay for..they are a quality ,reliable heater....
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Looking at the Cleaning Warehouse website their hotbox is only £300 cheaper than a webasto from Grippa, so not really a cheap option (£3000 as opposed to £3302),price does not include fitting.
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No news from them yet
But today I took this info from Dazmond -:
Are you plugging the return valves back into your tank between jobs? I don’t do this between jobs only on the way to the first.
So started doing the info above today and the system has been working for a full day with no codes/shutting down. Iv just keep the hotbox continually running ( as spruce advice which they like to do ) either on the glass or back to tank between jobs. So the hotbox don’t have to keep cooling down then heating up which it obviously don’t like, wish I was advised of this on fitting. This also helps with warming the water in tank to feed to hotbox which helps with getting the water temperature up at brush head, I was expecting more ( as in temp ) from this one man heater so every little helps. Would advise any one to get the 2 manner.
Always used the cleaning warehouse for all my gear which been happy with so went with them for hotbox not really looking at price but I wasn’t expecting a Russian heater. Should of done a bit more homework on it.
Yes spruce the manufacturer of heater is Autoterm found ther web address last night for them amongst all the Russian on warrent card.
Now I’m after more advice from you guys :)
For cold nights, Does anyone put pump on low flow say 25, with batteries on charge. Then set timer on hotbox to start up early morning around 5am for a few hours before starting work to warm up water in tank to feed help with reaching higher temps at brush head through the day ?? How long do you think it would have to run to warm a 600 litre tank ??
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Good stuff mate....yes it's imperative you plug back into your tank within 2 mins(to avoid heater shutting down)in between jobs and leave it plugged in at lunchtime too with your engine running to keep your water hot....
First thing in the morning before you leave for work...
1.start your van
2.fire up your heater with engine running
3.leave your heater running all day plugging into tank when not cleaning
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As for overnight heating if you don't have frost stat just put an oil filled radiator in the back on freezing nights...
Charge your batteries up EVERY NIGHT ALL YEAR ROUND with a decent charger like a ctek or numax commercial charger
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Dean your water will be hotter in the warmer months...
Have you checked the temperature of your water after 15 mins of firing up your heater?(coiled hose temperature)
Is it luke warm?or too hot to put your hand under it?
On a cold day you ll lose heat the more hose you have off your reel...which is just as well as you d be cracking glass if it was red hot at your brush end
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No news from them yet
But today I took this info from Dazmond -:
Are you plugging the return valves back into your tank between jobs? I don’t do this between jobs only on the way to the first.
So started doing the info above today and the system has been working for a full day with no codes/shutting down. Iv just keep the hotbox continually running ( as spruce advice which they like to do ) either on the glass or back to tank between jobs. So the hotbox don’t have to keep cooling down then heating up which it obviously don’t like, wish I was advised of this on fitting. This also helps with warming the water in tank to feed to hotbox which helps with getting the water temperature up at brush head, I was expecting more ( as in temp ) from this one man heater so every little helps. Would advise any one to get the 2 manner.
Always used the cleaning warehouse for all my gear which been happy with so went with them for hotbox not really looking at price but I wasn’t expecting a Russian heater. Should of done a bit more homework on it.
Yes spruce the manufacturer of heater is Autoterm found ther web address last night for them amongst all the Russian on warrent card.
Now I’m after more advice from you guys :)
For cold nights, Does anyone put pump on low flow say 25, with batteries on charge. Then set timer on hotbox to start up early morning around 5am for a few hours before starting work to warm up water in tank to feed help with reaching higher temps at brush head through the day ?? How long do you think it would have to run to warm a 600 litre tank ??
The trouble is that most suppliers of any equipment don't always have hands-on experience with the stuff they are selling. I seem to think that Alex Gardiner was the only supplier who still maintained a small window cleaning round that he used to test new equipment. I'm not sure if he still does that now. If he does, then I just don't know where he finds the time.
I have my own version of a froststat. I have a 12v digital temperature controller with a heating mode. The temperature sensor is fitted to the bulkhead connector out to my pump. When the temperature inside the heater drops to 3 degrees C the digital controller switches the heater on. I have set my controller to switch off at 9 degrees. I don't circulate any hot water through my hose reel and back to the tank.
At 9 degrees C when the controller switches the heater off, the internal hot water circuit is at around 75 degrees C. I have found that the heater casing does get a little warm, which does keep the temperature in the van above freezing where we live on the North East coast. It might not be the same inland, where temperatures drop much lower.
The important thing is to keep your diesel heater from freezing up. You will have antifreeze in the internal water circuit so that won't be the problem, but you will have pure water in the other side of the heat exchanger which will freeze. Plate to plate heat exchangers aren't cheap.
https://www.butlertechnik.com/webasto-motor-home-plate-heat-exchanger-with-mixer-valve-4111209a-p1516
I just use my system to bleed heat out of the system automatically. But tbh, the amount of hot water going to the tank doesn't make much difference to the water temperature in the tank. Personally, I would rather not heat the water in the tank specifically, as I see that as wasted energy. It costs enough to run a diesel heater just heating the water I am using to clean windows with.
But this is my opinion. There is/was a cleaner in Andover who used a 5kw diesel heater to only heat the water in his tank and then pumped that warm water to his brush head. He had a couple of videos on YouTube showing his setup, but I couldn't find them last time I searched.
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I’m not dead , still very much alive !
I decided not to produce in the end due to supply issues through Covid.
I have redesigned now , not due to problems , just a simplified layout which has given me hotter water to boot .
It’s now horizontal and much shorter which is a bonus , only needs one 105 amp battery and runs on half a litre per hour ;D
The copper coils have fared extremely well , as Spruce pointed out it was a concern to begin with if they would last or not , I have only just last weekend had the first customers unit back to replace his coil , it didn’t fail , he neglected to refit the flow sensor whilst doing some maintenance, the result was a super heated coil that went pop when he forgot to turn his water pump on , the flow sensor would have prevented the heater firing up but it wasn’t there was it John ;D :D
I think mine has been in service for 3 years now and all it’s had replaced is a glow plug at £11 a fuel pump at £15 so not too bad !
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I’m not dead , still very much alive !
I decided not to produce in the end due to supply issues through Covid.
I have redesigned now , not due to problems , just a simplified layout which has given me hotter water to boot .
It’s now horizontal and much shorter which is a bonus , only needs one 105 amp battery and runs on half a litre per hour ;D
The copper coils have fared extremely well , as Spruce pointed out it was a concern to begin with if they would last or not , I have only just last weekend had the first customers unit back to replace his coil , it didn’t fail , he neglected to refit the flow sensor whilst doing some maintenance, the result was a super heated coil that went pop when he forgot to turn his water pump on , the flow sensor would have prevented the heater firing up but it wasn’t there was it John ;D :D
I think mine has been in service for 3 years now and all it’s had replaced is a glow plug at £11 a fuel pump at £15 so not too bad !
Hi Richie, I'm glad you are still around. Nice to see you. :)