Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Rogga on August 05, 2021, 07:18:09 pm
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Hi fellow windies.
A bit of an awkward situation. A good customer of mine informed me by email that my employee had cracked a georgian window on his period house. He said he was upstairs when he heared a noise and went to the room the noise came from to see my employees brush close to the cracked pane. My employee at that time was carrying on window cleaning. The owner said there had been no cracked pane prior to us turning up. I questioned my employee at the end of his shift. He was unaware of any cracked pane and had cleaned the window in a normal manner as he had done many times before. The crack looks like a spiders web in appearance. I believe him as i really quizzed him. He is a very honest decent lad but the owner insists that it was us that did the damage. Ive been recently told that its a bit of a speciality job with the top section of the frame needing replacing. The cost from a reputable window firm is £335. Ouch! Have we been very unlucky. Could the georgian pane have been chipped or weakened and any light pressure on the glass would have created the crack. Ive been window cleaning for many years and ive seen many things but this is very new to me. Any thoughts will be very much welcome. Thanks
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A piece of glass and a tub of putty £10 . touch up with paint , cant see where you get £334 from
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Get a second quote as that sounds very very expensive. If it's period glass then it will weaken at the top first as glass is technically a liquid and will over decades thin at top.
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Looks like the whole top sections gone to me.
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These days they aren’t individually glazed,just 1 big piece of glass with the bars put over the top of the glass
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That looks like toughened glass to me.
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If that's fitted into a ground floor window frame and the glass is modern it would have been manufactured and tested in accordance to be 6206 for architectural glazing a would be almost impossible to break using a wfp .
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oh i see its completly shattered
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Ive been a bit neglectful on this. I need to go and investigate. Get the ladders off. Take my own photos. Also ring the window company responsible for the quote and ask fora breakdown of the work. I cant help feeling that this could have happened at anytime with potential fault with the glass and we came along and sped up the process. If we had been fully responsible then the plastic would have been straight out and the proper end to it finalised. Still would have questioned why the quote is high though. Cheers for your input folks.
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If that's fitted into a ground floor window frame and the glass is modern it would have been manufactured and tested in accordance to be 6206 for architectural glazing a would be almost impossible to break using a wfp .
Not with hot water it’s not.
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Did he raise it with your employee immediately after it allegedly happened? Id imagine that would be most people's initial instinctive reaction bit fishy if he didn't imho
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to me it looks like an impact, stone, air rifle pellet - possibly the corner of a brush, but you'd have to hit it damn hard
as said - as he was there why did he not question the employee there and then ?
how long after the "incident" did he finally contact you?
I would say not all as it seems...
Darran
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I know it’s high up but the damage looks like a stone from someone using a strimmer to me , I would expect to see a scratch not a shattered pain of glass
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Yeah it looks like a lawn mower or strimmer but I’ve known panes of glass to just have this happen out of the blue,a glazier I spoke to said if you keep cleaning with very hot water although you can’t see it if there are very small discrepancies in the glass over time it can weaken it,I had one on a very cold morning she said to me it just went pop out of the blue it won’t stop me cleaning with hot water though 🤣.
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Thanks. Youve raised an interesting question that i hadnt thought of. Why didnt he take it up with my employee at the time. Im not saying he is being underhand but it would be the natural thing to do. I will arrange a meet up with the owner and take my employee when i go inspect the damage. From the look of the crack its shape is that of an impact crack rather than a stress or pressure crack and that puts us in the dock. I think a face to face with all parties is needed before i submit to coughing up. Cheers again
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If this is toughened glass as it looks in the picture then It would take a lot of force to break it. Its toughened and then stronger as its smaller so would take a lot of force to break and then it would shatter if he kept cleaning if he had not noticed.
One of two ways:
Employee has banged the window with the edge of his brush when starting and broke it and feels a dick about owning up.
Or
Windows cleaned and then broken by a third party but owner assumes it was your guy as nobody else been near his windows that he knows of?
The repair cost would be to visit and temporary glaze whilst toughened is being made but would not expect it to cost more than £150 tops (Im an ex glazer).
Your issue is do you want to lose hi m and not how it got broken.
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Was the top sash open when your cleaner arrived? Did he use a pole to push the window up closed?
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So what options do you have?
Pay up and keep the customer, not pay and lose them.
I would pay them and explain this incident has been a very positive learning curve, it’s helped you realise your liability insurance is woefully inadequate for how you work has evolved over the last few years, to protect your self from future incidents you have upgraded your insurance, which will mean a slight increase in your prices …. Then increase his price by £7 a clean
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It doesn’t matter how toughened it is if it has microscopic flaws in the glass it will crack with hot water,the chances of you or your employee cracking it with cold are slim to non it’s always easy to blame the bloke that spends more time with the glass ie the window cleaner.
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Slightly off topic and tongue in cheek but i sometimes wonder should we wear a body cam, would eliminate a lot of the try ons
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Slightly off topic and tongue in cheek but i sometimes wonder should we wear a body cam, would eliminate a lot of the try ons
We do about 8000 cleans a year and my last broken glass or scratched glass was about 3 years ago
It’s a non issue for us really
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agree ( even as little as 8,000 a year ;D )
been a good 4 years since someone scratched a window - and that actually polished out
other than that in 11 years ive only had 4 incidents - totalling a cost to me of around 350 quid
Darran
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agree ( even as little as 8,000 a year ;D )
;D
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If it old glass it doesn't take much for it to break, for this reason I try to avoid old house s like that
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Again some great responses. I think upping the price to upgrade liability insurance with this type of house is definately something i should consider. He heared 'the noise' whilst on the upper floor in another room that puts us down as liable in his mind. He then saw the shattered glass. We've never had a problem with this type of house although there is one we do that seems to have another cracked window every time we return. Not us honest. The guy seems to be running the property down. It seems to indicate that the glass on the older properties can be very vulnerable. These houses on my rounds are well priced and for that reason i'd like to keep them but may have to explain the need to increase insurance cover. The owner has been a good customer over many years and we do his fathers period property too so the suggestion of paying and to learn his also very much on the cards. By the way i use a cold water system so the chances of a stress crack might not be an issue. The temperature outside on the day was not extreme.
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Is there a camber to the lawn around that area. To me it looks like a stone chip from a lawnmower or strimer but it needs to be at an angle to send it that high.
Tony
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If he has no proof and the employee claims he is innocent then just walk away and lose the customer.
Or pay for it and hope he doesn't dump you anyway.
I had an employee who reversed Into someone's car. He got out and went and shoved a note through her door to let her know with my number on....Very noble of him but cost me £300 for his do gooding . :D
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An update on the previous report. I arranged to meet with my customer at his house and i took my employee accused of the damage. We viewed the window from inside the rear bedroom and it is shattered but hasnt collapsed in or out. The point of the impact is on the middle section of the top row of squares. The window is one pain divided into six by stick on 'frets'. My employee in front of the customers said that he had control of the pole and brush and that he starts in the corner and not in the middle section where the impact is. The customers said that it was high and a tricky angle and my employee may have not seen or heared the impact and noise. We went outside to view the angle and height from the floor and it posed no problems whatsoever as we could see easily the whole window and there were no angles or obstructions. During the meet and my defense based on trust in the employee and his statement. Also that there could have been a prior fault with the glass, my prosecutors rolled their eyes in disagreement as they had us banged to rights. It wasnt about the money it just didnt stack up that he was negligent enough the band hard enough in a negligent manner on the glass to cause the damage and not be aware of the spread of the crack over the other panes. It baffles him and me. As a sign of goodwill i offered to pay half as there was a lot of doubt involved. This was us admitting anything but a reasonable gesture. That was refused and now i wait for his next move.
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Stick to your guns if you're sure it wasn't your employee's fault. Double glazed units can just shatter for no apparent reason. It's rare but it does happen. Temperature, expansion, packers too tight etc.
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Google it. Or check this site out: https://www.windowsonlineuk.co.uk/blog/causes-double-glazing-crack/
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Thanks Simon interesting read. I got a call from the owner a couple of hours ago accepting the offer of half the cost of the quote from the glaziers. He said this may increase if they have to replace the existing frets if they cant cut them out without damaging them. I almost offered half for this too as i felt sorry for him but pulled back to just agree to proceed step by step. He is getting the work done immediately. Its been tough not to give in and pay for the whole lot as there is a fair bit at stake. Thanks for everyones support it has helped form my decision.
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He probably genuinely believes your employee did it. Difficult situation I know but now you're lumbered with half the cost & feeling eternally grateful for something you probably didn't do. It's hard to believe it was a coincidence and that it just shattered on it's own but I think that's probably what happened, especially with the temperature recently. I had similar recently with some scratched panes. I'm sure it wasn't us. They were already there. And I wouldn't expect any loyalty either. He'll probably cancel soon. If not I think I'd cancel him anyway. Once bitten & all that.
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paying half the cost was the best outcome in this situation i think........i clean some listed buildings and some of the georgian sash windows are in a shocking state,there is no way im paying full price of replacement if i damage a pane or two...ive even refused to clean some other listed buildings until they get their windows replaced......
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If you clean those old windows you will crack a few unless you turn it down heat wise,old panes of glass generally have the odd small crack in a corner when it’s hardly visible once you give it hot it cracks from corner to corner in a lot of cases.
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If you clean those old windows you will crack a few unless you turn it down heat wise,old panes of glass generally have the odd small crack in a corner when it’s hardly visible once you give it hot it cracks from corner to corner in a lot of cases.
ive been cleaning these period properties for years with hot water all year round no problems....the only glass ive cracked was a little double glazed UPVC opener which already had a small crack in it a few years ago
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Having an issue myself at the mo, customer has accused me of breaking a window and owes me £45 which isn't forthcoming. So angry about it, it's the fact he's questioning my honesty that's riling me. Nothing to do with hot water, I'm cold, window has a round hole in it with cracks going off, he reckons its either me or the chap who did his facias despite the fact this twat has a sports field at the end of his garden where people knock golf balls about etc. Stood my ground and he paid me for a while(didn't want to continue cleaning but leaving would have looked sus) but since having the glass replaced he hasn'tpaid. Going to leave me well out of pocket if I have to chase payment through legal means but not having him cast aspersions on my honesty. Lost money already this week from a lady who swears blind she paid me when she hasn't (now bacs only). When you do something wrong ie break something etc then it's the customers perogative to be compensated but when you just do your job perfectly well and then have to fight for your money or write it off it does my head in.
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Yes - I had one like that backed onto a playground - funny thing was between his initial photo showing the broken window and me going round it received another blow and another hole/crack ;D
So no liability there!
Unfortunately people nowadays always look for the easiest way to get someone else to pay - don’t take it personally they just can’t process the alternative scenario in the brain
I think by the strict letter of the law he has to pay you for your service/work done then take court action for damages he thinks you caused - but the has to prove it
Darran
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Having an issue myself at the mo, customer has accused me of breaking a window and owes me £45 which isn't forthcoming. So angry about it, it's the fact he's questioning my honesty that's riling me. Nothing to do with hot water, I'm cold, window has a round hole in it with cracks going off, he reckons its either me or the chap who did his facias despite the fact this twat has a sports field at the end of his garden where people knock golf balls about etc. Stood my ground and he paid me for a while(didn't want to continue cleaning but leaving would have looked sus) but since having the glass replaced he hasn'tpaid. Going to leave me well out of pocket if I have to chase payment through legal means but not having him cast aspersions on my honesty. Lost money already this week from a lady who swears blind she paid me when she hasn't (now bacs only). When you do something wrong ie break something etc then it's the customers perogative to be compensated but when you just do your job perfectly well and then have to fight for your money or write it off it does my head in.
Unless you're owed north of a couple of hundred quid is it worth getting too wound up about?
Just text that 'perhaps they've forgotten' and if no response simply call round.
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Having an issue myself at the mo, customer has accused me of breaking a window and owes me £45 which isn't forthcoming. So angry about it, it's the fact he's questioning my honesty that's riling me. Nothing to do with hot water, I'm cold, window has a round hole in it with cracks going off, he reckons its either me or the chap who did his facias despite the fact this twat has a sports field at the end of his garden where people knock golf balls about etc. Stood my ground and he paid me for a while(didn't want to continue cleaning but leaving would have looked sus) but since having the glass replaced he hasn'tpaid. Going to leave me well out of pocket if I have to chase payment through legal means but not having him cast aspersions on my honesty. Lost money already this week from a lady who swears blind she paid me when she hasn't (now bacs only). When you do something wrong ie break something etc then it's the customers perogative to be compensated but when you just do your job perfectly well and then have to fight for your money or write it off it does my head in.
Unless you're owed north of a couple of hundred quid is it worth getting too wound up about?
Just text that 'perhaps they've forgotten' and if no response simply call round.
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It's definitely not worth getting wound up about and if you can pass on the secret to "switching off" and not letting it bother me then I implore you to share because unfortunately I don't posses that mind skillset that allows me to do that. Too much time on my own to over think things has always been a down side to this job.
I've text twice(polite reminders) and will go round next week and hope I can keep my cool.
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Having an issue myself at the mo, customer has accused me of breaking a window and owes me £45 which isn't forthcoming. So angry about it, it's the fact he's questioning my honesty that's riling me. Nothing to do with hot water, I'm cold, window has a round hole in it with cracks going off, he reckons its either me or the chap who did his facias despite the fact this twat has a sports field at the end of his garden where people knock golf balls about etc. Stood my ground and he paid me for a while(didn't want to continue cleaning but leaving would have looked sus) but since having the glass replaced he hasn'tpaid. Going to leave me well out of pocket if I have to chase payment through legal means but not having him cast aspersions on my honesty. Lost money already this week from a lady who swears blind she paid me when she hasn't (now bacs only). When you do something wrong ie break something etc then it's the customers perogative to be compensated but when you just do your job perfectly well and then have to fight for your money or write it off it does my head in.
he s probably on holiday...a lot of customers are at this time of year...ive noticed a slow down in some payments but this is normal in the month of august..i usually get a bumper september payment wise......im off to greece on the 5th september so ill be getting payments dropping into my account every day im away.....
for me any domestic jobs i clean that are £45 a pop and upwards are only one clean without payment before cleaning ceases(apart from the odd commercial job)until i get paid,usually these are 6 or 8 weekly jobs so plenty of time for them to pay
how often do you send a text reminder?i usually text 5 or 6 customers around 14 days after the clean which 90% of customers will respond and pay within 24 hours,i only have to do this a few times a month
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Having an issue myself at the mo, customer has accused me of breaking a window and owes me £45 which isn't forthcoming. So angry about it, it's the fact he's questioning my honesty that's riling me. Nothing to do with hot water, I'm cold, window has a round hole in it with cracks going off, he reckons its either me or the chap who did his facias despite the fact this twat has a sports field at the end of his garden where people knock golf balls about etc. Stood my ground and he paid me for a while(didn't want to continue cleaning but leaving would have looked sus) but since having the glass replaced he hasn'tpaid. Going to leave me well out of pocket if I have to chase payment through legal means but not having him cast aspersions on my honesty. Lost money already this week from a lady who swears blind she paid me when she hasn't (now bacs only). When you do something wrong ie break something etc then it's the customers perogative to be compensated but when you just do your job perfectly well and then have to fight for your money or write it off it does my head in.
he s probably on holiday...a lot of customers are at this time of year...ive noticed a slow down in some payments but this is normal in the month of august..i usually get a bumper september payment wise......im off to greece on the 5th september so ill be getting payments dropping into my account every day im away.....
for me any domestic jobs i clean that are £45 a pop and upwards are only one clean without payment before cleaning ceases(apart from the odd commercial job)until i get paid,usually these are 6 or 8 weekly jobs so plenty of time for them to pay
how often do you send a text reminder?i usually text 5 or 6 customers around 14 days after the clean which 90% of customers will respond and pay within 24 hours,i only have to do this a few times a month
I only text reminders when a custys gets 2 cleans behind and the 3rd is coming up, with some I let it go 3 as it's only a small amount. This particular amount of £45 consists of two cleans, the 1st of which was now over 17 weeks ago.
I know this time of year the amount of outstanding debt increases, mines probably double what it usually is right now, but as you say, a text reminder usually does the trick, this blokes ignoring them. I'll see what happens next week.
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Having an issue myself at the mo, customer has accused me of breaking a window and owes me £45 which isn't forthcoming. So angry about it, it's the fact he's questioning my honesty that's riling me. Nothing to do with hot water, I'm cold, window has a round hole in it with cracks going off, he reckons its either me or the chap who did his facias despite the fact this twat has a sports field at the end of his garden where people knock golf balls about etc. Stood my ground and he paid me for a while(didn't want to continue cleaning but leaving would have looked sus) but since having the glass replaced he hasn'tpaid. Going to leave me well out of pocket if I have to chase payment through legal means but not having him cast aspersions on my honesty. Lost money already this week from a lady who swears blind she paid me when she hasn't (now bacs only). When you do something wrong ie break something etc then it's the customers perogative to be compensated but when you just do your job perfectly well and then have to fight for your money or write it off it does my head in.
he s probably on holiday...a lot of customers are at this time of year...ive noticed a slow down in some payments but this is normal in the month of august..i usually get a bumper september payment wise......im off to greece on the 5th september so ill be getting payments dropping into my account every day im away.....
for me any domestic jobs i clean that are £45 a pop and upwards are only one clean without payment before cleaning ceases(apart from the odd commercial job)until i get paid,usually these are 6 or 8 weekly jobs so plenty of time for them to pay
how often do you send a text reminder?i usually text 5 or 6 customers around 14 days after the clean which 90% of customers will respond and pay within 24 hours,i only have to do this a few times a month
I only text reminders when a custys gets 2 cleans behind and the 3rd is coming up, with some I let it go 3 as it's only a small amount. This particular amount of £45 consists of two cleans, the 1st of which was now over 17 weeks ago.
I know this time of year the amount of outstanding debt increases, mines probably double what it usually is right now, but as you say, a text reminder usually does the trick, this blokes ignoring them. I'll see what happens next week.
He paid me.... quite shocked, so pleasant it was quite creepy, no apology for blaming me for his window though, but very apologetic about late payment.. Its defo time i had a break, only had two days annual leave this year and i'm clearly overthinking stuff, time to recharge the batteries.