Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: GAZZA B on February 17, 2021, 04:43:48 pm
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I have been WFP since 2005 and only use cold water. I have always said it makes no difference if cold or hot.
during this cold spell I needed to think of a way to keep warm. I have been reading on here that if you drop a fish heater in the tank it will at least keep you a little warm , also with better and supple pipes and hose.
Last week I put two fish heaters in the tank 300w each max 34c lagged the tank and wow! what a difference, the tank stayed warm all day and when home was still 26c. Two days ago I bypassed the thermostat so they did not turn off at 34c. In the morning had a reading of 46c made my day so much better.
Now to the fun part, in my opinion and from cleaning windows for a few years the little heat i did have from the water made such a difference to better cleaning including bird poo and the water behaved in a better way while running down the glass and the brush was much smoother over the surface. I will be investigating In getting hotter but not gas as just enjoying having a little heat though out the day. :) :)
Gazza
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Sounds good - where did you buy the heaters from?
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Amazon.co.uk
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Amazon.co.uk
Are these https://amzn.to/2M3Cgx8 (https://amzn.to/2M3Cgx8) the sort of things with the thermostat that you bypassed or more like the basic ones here https://amzn.to/3pw2rtM (https://amzn.to/3pw2rtM)?
Sounds much easier than a 2Kw immersion plus you can distribute them better to reduce cold spots.
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I have been WFP since 2005 and only use cold water. I have always said it makes no difference if cold or hot.
during this cold spell I needed to think of a way to keep warm. I have been reading on here that if you drop a fish heater in the tank it will at least keep you a little warm , also with better and supple pipes and hose.
Last week I put two fish heaters in the tank 300w each max 34c lagged the tank and wow! what a difference, the tank stayed warm all day and when home was still 26c. Two days ago I bypassed the thermostat so they did not turn off at 34c. In the morning had a reading of 46c made my day so much better.
Now to the fun part, in my opinion and from cleaning windows for a few years the little heat i did have from the water made such a difference to better cleaning including bird poo and the water behaved in a better way while running down the glass and the brush was much smoother over the surface. I will be investigating In getting hotter but not gas as just enjoying having a little heat though out the day. :) :)
Gazza
I totally agree with you but expect all the naysayers will poo poo it like normal 😂😂😂
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The first one
It makes a big difference with out cutting a hole in your tank
It won't be as good but believe me when it is cold so nice to have a warm pole and reel ;D
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Sounds good. What did you use to lag your tank?
Thanks.
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Go to b&q and get some insulation foil wrap around your tank at least twice
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Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah 🤣🤣🤣
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You can’t tell people you have to come across it like you did in some way like have a go with someone else’s etc,the way the water reacts on the glass especially the water loving stuff sells it to you and the water hating stuff that spots up just dries like you are holding a hair dryer over the window 👌.
Once you go hot you’ll never go back to cold and you’ll never be left out in it again this time of year with a frozen van either lol.
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Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah 🤣🤣🤣
Didn’t you bang on about lukewarm water not cutting it and that you need the water at 60 degrees plus before it makes a noticeable difference?
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Here we go!
Good post mate on the fish tank heaters.
Can I ask how long you left them in for? And what size tank?
My 2kw immersion in a 350 litre takes 10. / 11 hours to reach max temp.
Just to give you a laugh! My latest project is to insulate my tank with 50 mm polystyrene panels. Bought two for collection.
So big I couldn’t get them in the vehicle!!
Very kind supplier going to deliver!
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Around 14 hours total 600w
Temperature was 47c good enough for me to keep warm all day just enough to make a difference on cleaning, it was amazing to see the birds pool melt just a bit quicker and did speed things up a bit
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I've a funny feeling NWH will be having a wet dream tonight.
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Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah 🤣🤣🤣
Didn’t you bang on about lukewarm water not cutting it and that you need the water at 60 degrees plus before it makes a noticeable difference?
I like you it’s in the detail he’s seen the light don’t spoil his moment.
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I've a funny feeling NWH will be having a wet dream tonight.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 👄👄👄
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Do you think it’s possible to heat your water up with a microwave I’ve just cut a big enough hole in my tank to get one in 🤣🤣🤣🤣
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That is brilliant 👏
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I have to disagree. Been using a 3kw immersion for 10 years in winter and see no improvement in actual cleaning over cold water. It does give you a bigger window of opportunity in regards to working in subzero temperatures and it does make for a much nicer working experience with soft hoses etc. However, IMO there is no significant, or measurable improvement in cleaning from this method of water heating. You would need a 'on-demand' heating source like gas or diesel to reach the kind of temps with consistency to facilitate a meaningful improvement to cleaning. Not the result, as this will be the same as with cold, but more so the ability to remove certain types of soiling easier and in less time.
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I have to disagree. Been using a 3kw immersion for 10 years in winter and see no improvement in actual cleaning over cold water. It does give you a bigger window of opportunity in regards to working in subzero temperatures and it does make for a much nicer working experience with soft hoses etc. However, IMO there is no significant, or measurable improvement in cleaning from this method of water heating. You would need a 'on-demand' heating source like gas or diesel to reach the kind of temps with consistency to facilitate a meaningful improvement to cleaning. Not the result, as this will be the same as with cold, but more so the ability to remove certain types of soiling easier and in less time.
I have to disagree chum. Been using a 3kw element recently and think it makes a notable difference. Cleaning windows is far easier, less scrubbing, dirt just seems to melt off and frames definitely come up cleaner with hot water. The finish on the glass maybe the same but the fact that they dry quicker helps prevent any contamination immediately after iv finished.
Maybe because I'm using a custom built insulated tank with the element so the water seems to be staying very warm to hot all day long. Havnt checked the temp at the brush but its hot enough to steam and I can only hold my hand there for 2 seconds.
I was at a point where I was bored of window cleaning but hot water just makes it more enjoyable all round and much easier.
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I first tried hot water with a gas shower heater years ago now..loved it....then I broke the heater when it went to -10 one night over xmas,bought another one then upgraded my van and fitted it into my new van,then i had a small explosion(gas leak),so I chucked it and tried to convince myself that cold water was just as good as hot for a few months....I then bought a diesel heater just over 3 years ago now.......never looked back.....
I just prefer working with hot water......
I do think the immersions fitted in insulated tanks will be the main way wi ndow cleaners heat their water in the future because we ll all be forced to buy electric vans in a few years and I dont think the diesel heaters will be a convenient option by then....
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I first tried hot water with a gas shower heater years ago now..loved it....then I broke the heater when it went to -10 one night over xmas,bought another one then upgraded my van and fitted it into my new van,then i had a small explosion(gas leak),so I chucked it and tried to convince myself that cold water was just as good as hot for a few months....I then bought a diesel heater just over 3 years ago now.......never looked back.....
I just prefer working with hot water......
I do think the immersions fitted in insulated tanks will be the main way wi ndow cleaners heat their water in the future because we ll all be forced to buy electric vans in a few years and I dont think the diesel heaters will be a convenient option by then....
Hopefully someone can make a dedicated heated tank by then. Rather then a single element i would love to see a heated grid type system in the tank that runs off something like 2.4 kw and better distributes the heat around the tank.
Maybe even have a function that can connect to electric vehicle battery to run at small intervals to keep the water hot.
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The main thing apart from all the bum flufferies like warm hands soft hoses no freezing etc is that it gives you more confidence with what you’re cleaning,you may think cold is as good everyone’s entitled to their opinion but out of the 1000s of windows you clean they don’t all get checked.
Just because the phones not ringing with the job not being bang on means nothing.
There’s no magic wand non of us do a perfect job every time hot or cold but you’ve a far better chance with hot and that’s why it gives you more of an advantage,forget it it’s only good for really dirty stuff it cleans everything better.
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The main thing apart from all the bum flufferies like warm hands soft hoses no freezing etc is that it gives you more confidence with what you’re cleaning,you may think cold is as good everyone’s entitled to their opinion but out of the 1000s of windows you clean they don’t all get checked.
Just because the phones not ringing with the job not being bang on means nothing.
There’s no magic wand non of us do a perfect job every time hot or cold but you’ve a far better chance with hot and that’s why it gives you more of an advantage,forget it it’s only good for really dirty stuff it cleans everything better.
More confidence ? thankfully I have plenty, and the only opinion's that count are from those who pay me to clean their windows,
same old rubbish from those who like their toys and for some reason constantly feel they need to justify them, I don't need my over priced over the top phone, I just wanted one. 😁
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Ok so why don’t you just get a hot water system like me then coz thats what I do when they go wrong I just buy another one lol,more like you’re one of these people that pay 50-60 notes a month for a phone you mean you should have done what I did if you like your toys just buy one outright 🤣🤣🤣
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I've used one of this last night for 3-4 hours and got the water in my tanks to 32-32 degrees. It made a difference to my working day already. Softer hoses ,some bird mark came off easier.
I'll be ordering another one as I have 2 x250 l tanks joined together .
I'll also be looking at insulating the tank too.
For what they cost I think I can't go.wrong
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265050571283
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Ok so why don’t you just get a hot water system like me then coz thats what I do when they go wrong I just buy another one lol,more like you’re one of these people that pay 50-60 notes a month for a phone you mean you should have done what I did if you like your toys just buy one outright 🤣🤣🤣
Iv tried hot water and it made no difference to my working day speed or other, I get no complaints or cancellations due to quality therefore I'm not concerned about it, so to answer your question unlike my phone its just not a toy that would give me any pleasure wasting my money on.
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Yeah yeah go back to sleep 💤
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Yeah yeah go back to sleep 💤
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1613742325_boohoo_zps058c9fe1.gif)
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Good night 🛌
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I've two questions regarding the debate between cleaning with hot or cold water. Why do so many people choose to pre soak roasting trays, pyrex dishes etc in hot water prior to hand washing? Why do people prefer to use hot water over cold to hand wash dishes?
Ever had a coffee or tea ring stain around the inside of the cup or mug and noticed how much quicker and simpler hot water lifts the mark compared to cold water, same principle applies to using hot water over cold for wfp by coincidence, I find it quite amusing the hot / cold debate.
I've used a calorifier tank run off the van radiator to heat my water for wfp and also used a diesel heater for wfp. I've also used cold water for wfp. I know the benefits of using hot over cold and the savings that can be made using cold water so I will always sit on the fence on this debate and remain neutral but smile knowing the advantages and disadvantages of both.
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Hopefully someone can make a dedicated heated tank by then.
Is there a reason why, no one offers electric/immersion heated tanks, but preffer to sell webasto/diesssel heaters?
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Hopefully someone can make a dedicated heated tank by then.
Is there a reason why, no one offers electric/immersion heated tanks, but preffer to sell webasto/diesssel heaters?
Stephen Scargill made me a custom immersion tank that was insulated. It was brilliant. I sold my van with it included though. I think he’s with a company now, it was mentioned in here before.
I’ve got a Grippatank webasto system now, but if I wasn’t as busy as I was, I would definitely go for the same immersion set up.
It’s frost protection, warm water, and comfortable working.
The advantage of grippa system and other Webastos is the simplicity. Flick a switch and I’ve got piping hot water, I can top up my tank at lunch time and still have piping hot water. It just costs thousands more. For me right now, it’s worth it.
Immersions really do have their place though.
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Webasto heaters etc are much more efficient than immersion heaters. It’s on demand as apposed to heating a whole tank of water. Also have the benefit of froststat heating your reels & returning to tank. That’s my understanding of it.
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Hopefully someone can make a dedicated heated tank by then.
Is there a reason why, no one offers electric/immersion heated tanks, but preffer to sell webasto/diesssel heaters?
I have an immersion tank from Stephen scargill that was built to spec.
It is great but of course there are minor negatives such as cold spots and water cooling through the day.
I'm just saying if some egghead put their mind there surely is a better way..
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I've two questions regarding the debate between cleaning with hot or cold water. Why do so many people choose to pre soak roasting trays, pyrex dishes etc in hot water prior to hand washing? Why do people prefer to use hot water over cold to hand wash dishes?
Ever had a coffee or tea ring stain around the inside of the cup or mug and noticed how much quicker and simpler hot water lifts the mark compared to cold water, same principle applies to using hot water over cold for wfp by coincidence, I find it quite amusing the hot / cold debate.
I've used a calorifier tank run off the van radiator to heat my water for wfp and also used a diesel heater for wfp. I've also used cold water for wfp. I know the benefits of using hot over cold and the savings that can be made using cold water so I will always sit on the fence on this debate and remain neutral but smile knowing the advantages and disadvantages of both.
why do we wash dishes with hot water - why clean cloths with hot water ?
simple - you need detergent which works better at high temp to work on the grease - hot water also softens items that were once soft and now solidified - the question is how much frying pan fat do you find on your windows.....?
Dirt is not solidified anything it does not resolve in hot water - hot/cold have the same effect - this part of the job is purely down to your scrubbing and flow.
now stubborn bird poo and salt do react to hot water - so if your on the coast then this will help and if you suffer loads of bird poo there is a benefit
And without question I prefer the soft hoses and warming of the pole.
But here's the rub -
Nearly everyone says hot has a benefit - but does the cost (diesel heater) outweigh the advantages - NO (IMO) -
I can achieve 35 degrees quite easily with immersion heater, and as Gazza found out it stays warm all day
bird poo will melt with a temp of 30 degrees c. and salt at a mere 25 - these temps are more than adequate to use hot at a low cost of £100 and somewhere between £2 and £5 per night with added her protection against frost
The debate/rage starts when those who have wanted to spend 5k want to constantly undermine ANY other form of heating water - silly statements like our hot is better tha =n yours has just lead to a breakdown in decent debates
Darran
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Hopefully someone can make a dedicated heated tank by then.
Is there a reason why, no one offers electric/immersion heated tanks, but preffer to sell webasto/diesssel heaters?
I have an immersion tank from Stephen scargill that was built to spec.
It is great but of course there are minor negatives such as cold spots and water cooling through the day.
I'm just saying if some egghead put their mind there surely is a better way..
if you want to eliminate hot spot buy a small wave maker for an aquarium this circulates water between 400 and 2000 litres an hour - works like a charm
Darran
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Thanks All! I understand differences, still not sure why none of main systems supliers (grippa, ionics, PF, stremeline etc) don't offer immersion heater instalation as an option? It clearly works for many people and should be availiable fitted and tested proffesionally ;D 8)
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Thanks All! I understand differences, still not sure why none of main systems supliers (grippa, ionics, PF, stremeline etc) don't offer immersion heater instalation as an option? It clearly works for many people and should be availiable fitted and tested proffesionally ;D 8)
They will never offer an immersion element installation, they wouldn’t be able to command silly prices because they are an easy DIY fit. Diesel systems on the other hand require a professional install so they can charge what they like......and do.
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Thanks All! I understand differences, still not sure why none of main systems supliers (grippa, ionics, PF, stremeline etc) don't offer immersion heater instalation as an option? It clearly works for many people and should be availiable fitted and tested proffesionally ;D 8)
They will never offer an immersion element installation, they wouldn’t be able to command silly prices because they are an easy DIY fit. Diesel systems on the other hand require a professional install so they can charge what they like......and do.
I think if they offered immersion tanks in the 2.4kw range with an in built wave machine like smudger mentioned, in around the £1500 - £2000 price range, I reckon they would easily sell.
They could even wire it all to a control unit where you could set the temperature and timer etc and all you have to do is plug it in at night.
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As diesel dies a slow death these types of tanks will surely start taking off, unless someone comes up with a radical new way of heating water.
Maybe Hman can come up with something ;D
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Just an update, I was getting 34c from the two 300w heaters overnight. It made a big difference to me on my working day.
I have now bypassed the thermostat on both, yesterday my 400lt tank overnight was 60c. I do live on the coast with a lot of bird poo and it comes off much quicker. when I got home after working from 8am to 3pm my tank temp was still 50c not bad for the price of just dropping two elements in your tank !
the price of electricity per night for 8hrs 600watts ??
not bad surly ?
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One thing to note also, is that your getting higher temps as your week goes on because your not using a whole tank of water. Your results will vary a lot to someone who regularly uses a whole tank of water or who has to top up during the day.
For example, ...... someone with a 650 tank and 2x 300 watt heaters, if they filled their tank up with cold water (around 5 degrees) at this time of year, it would take a whole 70 hours to get that water up to 60 degrees.
This is the website you can use to calculate it;
https://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/calc.html
Immersion is great, but it does have its limits. Especially smaller elements like your using.
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yes that makes a lot of sense thank you
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Thanks All! I understand differences, still not sure why none of main systems supliers (grippa, ionics, PF, stremeline etc) don't offer immersion heater instalation as an option? It clearly works for many people and should be availiable fitted and tested proffesionally ;D 8)
They will never offer an immersion element installation, they wouldn’t be able to command silly prices because they are an easy DIY fit. Diesel systems on the other hand require a professional install so they can charge what they like......and do.
I think if they offered immersion tanks in the 2.4kw range with an in built wave machine like smudger mentioned, in around the £1500 - £2000 price range, I reckon they would easily sell.
They could even wire it all to a control unit where you could set the temperature and timer etc and all you have to do is plug it in at night.
Yes I need one soon ;D That should be the direction for any new company trying to revolutionise the market ;) 8)
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1500-2000 eh well if you go on the Ionic website at the moment they’ll charge you that for a 9kw hot box reconditioned incl fitting,you’ll get your 60 degrees within 10 minutes.
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Where are you taking the temp reading from? The top of the tank will be far warmer than the bottom... where the outlet is.
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Just an update, I was getting 34c from the two 300w heaters overnight. It made a big difference to me on my working day.
I have now bypassed the thermostat on both, yesterday my 400lt tank overnight was 60c. I do live on the coast with a lot of bird poo and it comes off much quicker. when I got home after working from 8am to 3pm my tank temp was still 50c not bad for the price of just dropping two elements in your tank !
the price of electricity per night for 8hrs 600watts ??
not bad surly ?
Was going to ask you how was it making a big difference to your working day, but on the coast says it all, it does surprise me that you are getting 34 degrees from 600watts of heater in 8hours, how much water is that because according to the water heating calculator it would take 36 hours to get 600 litres to 34degrees from a 5 degree start and that doesn't allow for the heat loss over that time.
Water Heating Calculator for Time, Energy, and Power
https://bloglocation.com/art/water-heating-calculator-for-time-energy-
Water Heating Calculator for Time, Energy, and Power The calculators on this page compute how long it takes to heat water, how much energy is consumed, and how much heating power is required. Only input whole numbers, do not use a comma or point.
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Thanks All! I understand differences, still not sure why none of main systems supliers (grippa, ionics, PF, stremeline etc) don't offer immersion heater instalation as an option? It clearly works for many people and should be availiable fitted and tested proffesionally ;D 8)
They will never offer an immersion element installation, they wouldn’t be able to command silly prices because they are an easy DIY fit. Diesel systems on the other hand require a professional install so they can charge what they like......and do.
I think if they offered immersion tanks in the 2.4kw range with an in built wave machine like smudger mentioned, in around the £1500 - £2000 price range, I reckon they would easily sell.
They could even wire it all to a control unit where you could set the temperature and timer etc and all you have to do is plug it in at night.
I agree, people will pay a premium for simplicity.
Or they could buy the parts for £50 and put it in a £300 tank, but they will choose to pay 2k if it has a fancy sticker on it. ???
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Or they will pay more and they can have constant hot water within minutes of turning it on and it’s mobile and doesn’t need plugging in for half a day,people pay for simplicity and quality it’s the way of the world.
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I have to disagree. Been using a 3kw immersion for 10 years in winter and see no improvement in actual cleaning over cold water. It does give you a bigger window of opportunity in regards to working in subzero temperatures and it does make for a much nicer working experience with soft hoses etc. However, IMO there is no significant, or measurable improvement in cleaning from this method of water heating. You would need a 'on-demand' heating source like gas or diesel to reach the kind of temps with consistency to facilitate a meaningful improvement to cleaning. Not the result, as this will be the same as with cold, but more so the ability to remove certain types of soiling easier and in less time.
I have to disagree chum. Been using a 3kw element recently and think it makes a notable difference. Cleaning windows is far easier, less scrubbing, dirt just seems to melt off and frames definitely come up cleaner with hot water. The finish on the glass maybe the same but the fact that they dry quicker helps prevent any contamination immediately after iv finished.
Maybe because I'm using a custom built insulated tank with the element so the water seems to be staying very warm to hot all day long. Havnt checked the temp at the brush but its hot enough to steam and I can only hold my hand there for 2 seconds.
I was at a point where I was bored of window cleaning but hot water just makes it more enjoyable all round and much easier.
Just wondering how the hot is going?😁
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;D ;D ;D ;D
new purchase syndrome ?
Darran
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;D ;D ;D ;D
new purchase syndrome ?
Darran
;D certainly was.
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I have to disagree. Been using a 3kw immersion for 10 years in winter and see no improvement in actual cleaning over cold water. It does give you a bigger window of opportunity in regards to working in subzero temperatures and it does make for a much nicer working experience with soft hoses etc. However, IMO there is no significant, or measurable improvement in cleaning from this method of water heating. You would need a 'on-demand' heating source like gas or diesel to reach the kind of temps with consistency to facilitate a meaningful improvement to cleaning. Not the result, as this will be the same as with cold, but more so the ability to remove certain types of soiling easier and in less time.
I have to disagree chum. Been using a 3kw element recently and think it makes a notable difference. Cleaning windows is far easier, less scrubbing, dirt just seems to melt off and frames definitely come up cleaner with hot water. The finish on the glass maybe the same but the fact that they dry quicker helps prevent any contamination immediately after iv finished.
Maybe because I'm using a custom built insulated tank with the element so the water seems to be staying very warm to hot all day long. Havnt checked the temp at the brush but its hot enough to steam and I can only hold my hand there for 2 seconds.
I was at a point where I was bored of window cleaning but hot water just makes it more enjoyable all round and much easier.
Just wondering how the hot is going?😁
Its going well mate. :D Now the excitement has worn off I totally agree with you btw.
I guess when you spend the money on something you think is going to be great, for a while you really think it is.
I have had my doubts about it for a bit now but I wanted to wait before I posted my thoughts until I had run some little experiments, which has been easier recently when windows dry quicker and I can see the results.
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I have to disagree. Been using a 3kw immersion for 10 years in winter and see no improvement in actual cleaning over cold water. It does give you a bigger window of opportunity in regards to working in subzero temperatures and it does make for a much nicer working experience with soft hoses etc. However, IMO there is no significant, or measurable improvement in cleaning from this method of water heating. You would need a 'on-demand' heating source like gas or diesel to reach the kind of temps with consistency to facilitate a meaningful improvement to cleaning. Not the result, as this will be the same as with cold, but more so the ability to remove certain types of soiling easier and in less time.
I have to disagree chum. Been using a 3kw element recently and think it makes a notable difference. Cleaning windows is far easier, less scrubbing, dirt just seems to melt off and frames definitely come up cleaner with hot water. The finish on the glass maybe the same but the fact that they dry quicker helps prevent any contamination immediately after iv finished.
Maybe because I'm using a custom built insulated tank with the element so the water seems to be staying very warm to hot all day long. Havnt checked the temp at the brush but its hot enough to steam and I can only hold my hand there for 2 seconds.
I was at a point where I was bored of window cleaning but hot water just makes it more enjoyable all round and much easier.
Just wondering how the hot is going?😁
Its going well mate. :D Now the excitement has worn off I totally agree with you btw.
I guess when you spend the money on something you think is going to be great, for a while you really think it is.
I have had my doubts about it for a bit now but I wanted to wait before I posted my thoughts until I had run some little experiments, which has been easier recently when windows dry quicker and I can see the results.
Fair play to you buddy, I know what you mean. I've wasted a few quid on different things in the past- based on a rave review on here, only to find it was totally crap!!😁. The old favourite is how every new brush deals with snail trails SO much better!!
You'll reap the rewards from your immersion set up every winter going forward though- that's where it comes into it's own.👍