Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: combat1 on February 09, 2021, 02:52:24 pm
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So my van has passed it’s m.o.t.!
Next project is to insulate my tank a bit better.
Currently using fibreglass blanket and fleece blanket.
Thought about 50mm polystyrene panels?
Apparently PIR panels need a 20 mm gap.
Not got enough room for that.
Anybody got any knowledge?
Thanks
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So you have 2 blankets and 50mm of polystyrene and it's not working???
Personally I would get the 50mm polystyrene as close to tank as possible and eliminate any air gaps, tape up all joints and put blankets over top. The Celotex/PU/PIR type insulation is better than polystyrene but significantly more expensive.
The fiberglass blanket type stuff should not be compressed as they rely on the trapped air pockets.
I think that sometimes a 20mm air gap is used to minimise condensation on cold surfaces. ie. the 20mm gap is between a cold exterior house wall and the insulation, I don't think that is needed when insulating a tank as the cold is on the outside of the insulation, so any condensation would not be trapped.
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Thanks, I really appreciate the help.
Just got the blankets at the moment, which work fairly well. Water is still fair at 15.30.
Polystyrene was a possibility, not got it yet.
I think that’s the way I will go.
I should have mentioned I use an immersion.
Thanks
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Thanks, I really appreciate the help.
Just got the blankets at the moment, which work fairly well. Water is still fair at 15.30.
Polystyrene was a possibility, not got it yet.
I think that’s the way I will go.
I should have mentioned I use an immersion.
Thanks
I would just try the polystyrene as it is much cheaper than PIR - not as good an insulator but should work fine. Be careful as I know someone who insulated their tank and cranked up the thermostat. The water was so much hotter the next day that they cracked a pane!!! So make sure your thermostat on the immersion isn't set too high. I think Wickes sell the polystyrene at reasonable costs and sizes.
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Brilliant, great to get help. Thanks
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What’s the regs on using an emersion does anyone know insurance wise having it in your house or van.
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What’s the regs on using an emersion does anyone know insurance wise having it in your house or van.
I would guess the IET 18th edition wiring regulations would be a good starting point for best practice but legally I don't think there is a reg for van mounted mains equipment.
As for insurance I would say always best to inform your insurance company that you are using mains heater in van same as you would inform insurance of using a diesel heater water heater in your van with frost stat?
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Different regs m8 I asked the plumber I had doing some work at my house yesterday he said why do you want it doing I said no I have a diesel heater he said oh right,he said if I want it doing it would have to be done using a metal tank and the biggest they do is 300ltrs which heats up to 80degrees.
I asked him about a plastic tank and it having a 2kw or 3kw emersion element and he said legally it couldn’t be done by him and he didn’t know an electrician that would do it,I’m just interested to know how people have done it legally indoors or in the vehicle.
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I’m not saying it can’t be done obviously there’s people doing it but have they informed their insurance I’m just wondering where it stands if they have a fire.
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Different regs m8 I asked the plumber I had doing some work at my house yesterday he said why do you want it doing I said no I have a diesel heater he said oh right,he said if I want it doing it would have to be done using a metal tank and the biggest they do is 300ltrs which heats up to 80degrees.
I asked him about a plastic tank and it having a 2kw or 3kw emersion element and he said legally it couldn’t be done by him and he didn’t know an electrician that would do it,I’m just interested to know how people have done it legally indoors or in the vehicle.
All tradespeople have their own views on what can and can't be done. For example, i have been struggling to find a 2kw 27 inch element anywhere, so today I got a sparky round to have a look at hooking me up a 16amp rig for the 3wk element already fitted in my tank. He told me its cheaper and perfectly fine to wire up the element with 10 metres of 2.5mm flex cable, a heavy duty rubberised 13amp plug and plug it into my kitchen in the oven socket.
Other sparkies would advise otherwise I'm sure, so I told him I would have a think about it.
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Thanks, I really appreciate the help.
Just got the blankets at the moment, which work fairly well. Water is still fair at 15.30.
Polystyrene was a possibility, not got it yet.
I think that’s the way I will go.
I should have mentioned I use an immersion.
Thanks
I would just try the polystyrene as it is much cheaper than PIR - not as good an insulator but should work fine. Be careful as I know someone who insulated their tank and cranked up the thermostat. The water was so much hotter the next day that they cracked a pane!!! So make sure your thermostat on the immersion isn't set too high. I think Wickes sell the polystyrene at reasonable costs and sizes.
What temp would you recommend on the thermostat? Mine is currently set at 65c
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Different regs m8 I asked the plumber I had doing some work at my house yesterday he said why do you want it doing I said no I have a diesel heater he said oh right,he said if I want it doing it would have to be done using a metal tank and the biggest they do is 300ltrs which heats up to 80degrees.
I asked him about a plastic tank and it having a 2kw or 3kw emersion element and he said legally it couldn’t be done by him and he didn’t know an electrician that would do it,I’m just interested to know how people have done it legally indoors or in the vehicle.
Your plumber friend will be talking about a house install i.e. an immersion install to provide hot water to a household, which is a different kettle of fish altogether. Sometimes plumbers are better not to speculate on what an electrician can and can’t do.
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No I explained to him about the setup that was all to see where people stood he had of course not heard of it being done all he said was with water and electricity there are strict laws,his words not mine a heating element shouldn’t be put into a plastic tank it should be fitted to a metal tank and the biggest he could get his hands on would be a 300ltr one,the plastic tank with electricity was his main concern.
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No I explained to him about the setup that was all to see where people stood he had of course not heard of it being done all he said was with water and electricity there are strict laws,his words not mine a heating element shouldn’t be put into a plastic tank it should be fitted to a metal tank and the biggest he could get his hands on would be a 300ltr one,the plastic tank with electricity was his main concern.
Better make sure you have a metal kettle then and not a plastic one.
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Different regs m8 I asked the plumber I had doing some work at my house yesterday he said why do you want it doing I said no I have a diesel heater he said oh right,he said if I want it doing it would have to be done using a metal tank and the biggest they do is 300ltrs which heats up to 80degrees.
I asked him about a plastic tank and it having a 2kw or 3kw emersion element and he said legally it couldn’t be done by him and he didn’t know an electrician that would do it,I’m just interested to know how people have done it legally indoors or in the vehicle.
Interesting. I am surprised a plumber would know anything about electrical regs. I believe plumbers have to abide by WRAS regulations. If they are working on Gas then they are legally required to be Gas Safe registered.
The electrical supply to a domestic immersion heater element is not something a plumber is qualified to install. Yes the can connect a flex to an outlet but they not legally allowed to install a new circuit as it's notifiable work (unless they are certified to notify). Also the electrical regs are not a legal requirement they are a guide!!!! I don't believe there is a Law in the UK governing electrical installations apart from notifiable works. If you were a landlord or had public in a building you own then to cover your self you might get a suitably qualified electrician to provide an EICR (Electrical Installation Condition Report) and have any faults rectified as that is enough proof to an insurance company that you have protected public safety.
There is obviously H&S at work act and The Electricity at Work Regulations (EWR) 1989 that must be complied with as its 'at work' if the immersion heater is used for work!
UK electrical regs are quite complex - some aspects are law depending on what you are doing, others are advisory, and then there is what is safe to do!!!
Bottom line is if you use an immersion heater can you prove to an insurance company that: a. it's installed safely, and b. did you tell them of the modification?
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Thanks, I really appreciate the help.
Just got the blankets at the moment, which work fairly well. Water is still fair at 15.30.
Polystyrene was a possibility, not got it yet.
I think that’s the way I will go.
I should have mentioned I use an immersion.
Thanks
I wouldn’t be too fussy about it being totally insulated, infact you are better off having some heat escape as your tank then acts like a giant radiator to prevent your equipment from freezing overnight.
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Different regs m8 I asked the plumber I had doing some work at my house yesterday he said why do you want it doing I said no I have a diesel heater he said oh right,he said if I want it doing it would have to be done using a metal tank and the biggest they do is 300ltrs which heats up to 80degrees.
I asked him about a plastic tank and it having a 2kw or 3kw emersion element and he said legally it couldn’t be done by him and he didn’t know an electrician that would do it,I’m just interested to know how people have done it legally indoors or in the vehicle.
All tradespeople have their own views on what can and can't be done. For example, i have been struggling to find a 2kw 27 inch element anywhere, so today I got a sparky round to have a look at hooking me up a 16amp rig for the 3wk element already fitted in my tank. He told me its cheaper and perfectly fine to wire up the element with 10 metres of 2.5mm flex cable, a heavy duty rubberised 13amp plug and plug it into my kitchen in the oven socket.
Other sparkies would advise otherwise I'm sure, so I told him I would have a think about it.
That's the thing about UK electrical installations is that the regulations are a guide and you need skill to interpret them. Was the electrician who suggested the 2.5mm cable an older chap? I suspect he was.
To be honest 3000watts is right on the edge of what is allowed on a 13A plug. The immersion heater will be pulling 3000watts for quite a few hrs so you need to get the best quality cable, connectors etc you can, don't scrimp at all.
As the cable is outdoors that helps with heat dissipation plus a cooker oven socket is fed with a thicker cable usually fused at 40Amps! So the cooker socket is not a 'standard' socket!
Plus as it's on a flying lead it comes under portable appliance regs not domestic installation so again different regs and guides.
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Different regs m8 I asked the plumber I had doing some work at my house yesterday he said why do you want it doing I said no I have a diesel heater he said oh right,he said if I want it doing it would have to be done using a metal tank and the biggest they do is 300ltrs which heats up to 80degrees.
I asked him about a plastic tank and it having a 2kw or 3kw emersion element and he said legally it couldn’t be done by him and he didn’t know an electrician that would do it,I’m just interested to know how people have done it legally indoors or in the vehicle.
All tradespeople have their own views on what can and can't be done. For example, i have been struggling to find a 2kw 27 inch element anywhere, so today I got a sparky round to have a look at hooking me up a 16amp rig for the 3wk element already fitted in my tank. He told me its cheaper and perfectly fine to wire up the element with 10 metres of 2.5mm flex cable, a heavy duty rubberised 13amp plug and plug it into my kitchen in the oven socket.
Other sparkies would advise otherwise I'm sure, so I told him I would have a think about it.
That's the thing about UK electrical installations is that the regulations are a guide and you need skill to interpret them. Was the electrician who suggested the 2.5mm cable an older chap? I suspect he was.
To be honest 3000watts is right on the edge of what is allowed on a 13A plug. The immersion heater will be pulling 3000watts for quite a few hrs so you need to get the best quality cable, connectors etc you can, don't scrimp at all.
As the cable is outdoors that helps with heat dissipation plus a cooker oven socket is fed with a thicker cable usually fused at 40Amps! So the cooker socket is not a 'standard' socket!
Plus as it's on a flying lead it comes under portable appliance regs not domestic installation so again different regs and guides.
So you saying its not ideal but he's right and it would be fine?
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So you saying its not ideal but he's right and it would be fine?
Although, many years ago I was employed as an electrician by MoD I have not passed the regs (17th at time). So although I wouldn't do it as long as you use good quality parts you should be OK should being operative word. I would get the electrician to wire up both ends and to test it and give you a receipt for the work!!!
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If you can get a qualified electrician to give you a ticket for it,that was the plumbers dilemma he didn’t seem to think you would do.
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I have a 3kw immersion, ive tried it but i darent leave it on overnight, the cable and plug get very hot.
I will change it for a 2kw
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I have a 3kw immersion, ive tried it but i darent leave it on overnight, the cable and plug get very hot.
I will change it for a 2kw
What cable are you using?
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Another noob question for you heating pros..
If I switch on my element at say 10pm and by 5am it reaches the set temp on the thermostat, does the thermostat just cut out, or will it come back on if the water temp drops below the set temp?
Also what is the best temp to set at this time of year so odont crack glass? Is 60c too hot, considering i have a proper insulated tank??
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Thermostat will switch element on and off to maintain approximate temp.
As for temp I would start at 45 to 50 at tank. In this weather and with lack of experience be careful to keep water moving on glass. Don't dwell too long on the glass, keep brush moving. That should minimise risks of cracking a pane.
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If you clean windows with temperatures like that this week you’ll crack glass.
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If you can get a qualified electrician to give you a ticket for it,that was the plumbers dilemma he didn’t seem to think you would do.
What are you and your plumber friend on about? You don’t need a ‘ticket’ to get a socket added to your property.
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If you clean windows with temperatures like that this week you’ll crack glass.
You have way more experience of hot water than me.
What temps in tank do you think are safest and any tip on using hot water?
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Over ten years I've fitted three 3kw elements in 3 Wyedale tanks and one 2kw element.
If you are going 3kw I would get an electrician to wire into your circuit board and leave you with a 16 amp socket. Then you can put a 16 amp plug on your heater and away you go.
I removed my 3kw heater and put in a 2kw and reverted to 13 amp extension lead off of my garage spur.
The worst that happened to me is the element blew when I dopily didn't have enough water in the tank to cover the element. It just immediately stopped working. The next day I screwed in a new element.
As for insulation I use 50mm celotex which is easily sawed to size but also have plywood on top to put a reel and battery on.
I leave a gap in the panel at the back of the tank about 1000mm x 400mm so that the warm water warms the van space too.
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M8 at the moment I would use warm water my frost stat has been on a few times today and has just gone off again,I would get the reel hot then turn it off.
If I turn it on in - temperatures it’s on minimum we are talking about cleaning windows in -6-7 so thermal shock will happen as everyone will have the heating ramped up indoors,this week is sacked off m8 the roads are like glass anyway.
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So hot water is no good on cold days too? Who’d have thought it.
Seems like an expensive way to keep your van warm. I personally prefer a £45 space heater.
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Another noob question for you heating pros..
If I switch on my element at say 10pm and by 5am it reaches the set temp on the thermostat, does the thermostat just cut out, or will it come back on if the water temp drops below the set temp?
Also what is the best temp to set at this time of year so odont crack glass? Is 60c too hot, considering i have a proper insulated tank??
You wont have 60c water coming out of the brush once you've reeled out half your hose on frosty ground......you lose a lot of heat from the hose....itll be just warm at the brush end which is what you want or you d be cracking a lot of glass!👍😄
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If you clean windows with temperatures like that this week you’ll crack glass.
You have way more experience of hot water than me.
What temps in tank do you think are safest and any tip on using hot water?
The water will be nowhere near 60c at brush end once it's gone through 100m of hose and its lay on cold ground...
The only thing I would watch out for is if the glass has even the tiniest crack in it warm water can make it worse and cause it to go bigger.....
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The hotter the water on the glass, the quicker it will freeze actually on the glass on conservatories where there is no heating inside :)
The ones you got to watch out for are the old single pane glass with putty because if a nail is touching the glass the hot water will just crack the glass.
Snowed today whilst working and sills were freezing up with ice as I was cleaning them but only used water at about 30degrees, won't go hotter when temperature doesn't get above zero until the afternoon.
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If you clean windows with temperatures like that this week you’ll crack glass.
You have way more experience of hot water than me.
What temps in tank do you think are safest and any tip on using hot water?
The water will be nowhere near 60c at brush end once it's gone through 100m of hose and its lay on cold ground...
The only thing I would watch out for is if the glass has even the tiniest crack in it warm water can make it worse and cause it to go bigger.....
You and your hose on the ground Daz you should stop using that refrigerated hose m8,hose on the ground or not mine gets piping hot m8 this week has been sacked off,the only thing missing this week would be a begging bowl cleaning in this kind of weather if you tripped over at the moment and fell on grass it would be like falling on a bed of nails lol.
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The hotter the water on the glass, the quicker it will freeze actually on the glass on conservatories where there is no heating inside :)
The ones you got to watch out for are the old single pane glass with putty because if a nail is touching the glass the hot water will just crack the glass.
Snowed today whilst working and sills were freezing up with ice as I was cleaning them but only used water at about 30degrees, won't go hotter when temperature doesn't get above zero until the afternoon.
my water was around 45 c today even with 100m out...it was a lovely,cold,bright, sunshine day......id much rather work in this weather than the wet days we ve had! 8)
i even picked up 6 weekly £60 office job.........happy days.... :)
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I don’t know Daz before long m8 you’ll be back to full time with no spare time the amount of work you say your picking up week after week lol,might be time for sorting some Chaff.
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If you can get a qualified electrician to give you a ticket for it,that was the plumbers dilemma he didn’t seem to think you would do.
What are you and your plumber friend on about? You don’t need a ‘ticket’ to get a socket added to your property.
You do need to get a certificate from the electrician that fitted it to say it’s been tested and is fitted safely , if you sell the house any alterations have to be tested , I had a socket put on the garage wall outside and the electrician gave me a certificate and said to keep it as if we moved we would have to supply it to the new owners for the survey firm to see and prove that it had been fitted according to the standards required not just done by myself .
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If you can get a qualified electrician to give you a ticket for it,that was the plumbers dilemma he didn’t seem to think you would do.
What are you and your plumber friend on about? You don’t need a ‘ticket’ to get a socket added to your property.
You do need to get a certificate from the electrician that fitted it to say it’s been tested and is fitted safely , if you sell the house any alterations have to be tested , I had a socket put on the garage wall outside and the electrician gave me a certificate and said to keep it as if we moved we would have to supply it to the new owners for the survey firm to see and prove that it had been fitted according to the standards required not just done by myself .
Exterior sockets, as long as they are added to an existing circuit, are not notifiable but it's always good practice to have the test certificate. In the event of a fire you have proof that the socket install was done correctly. Selling wise it is also good to have certification as some surveys/solicitors documents will ask if you have any electrical test certificates including EICR (Electrical Inspection Condition Report). If you have them if saves aggro plus stops buyers 'renegotiating prices'.
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You have a heating element that’s going into a plastic water container that is not designed for that,you know an electrician that’ll do that then forget the external sockets I have them that’s totally different.
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This may help
Polypropylene (PP) was developed in the 1970’s since then it has become a standard material used in chemical applications. It can be fabricated into different size tanks and can handle solutions up to 190°F. The larger tanks with high solution temperatures and “wave action” from parts on hoists create an increased possibility of tank failure.
Immersion heaters used in Polypro can range from just about any heater (Over-the-side, L-shaped or bottom, Screw-plug or screw-in, flanged) we manufacture. Temperature control and liquid level sensors are a Must-Have in any plastic or Plastic lined tank. If there is tank failure, solution evaporation, pump hose evacuating the tank, or a faulty drain valve then the level safety device will shut the heater off safely.
190 f is about 85 degrees c so setting to 65 c is well within a safety margin - although I doubt anyone has a water level switch an immersion element blows almost instantly if exposed to air
Darran
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I thought water tanks in houses were also under pressure ?
Darran