Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Amazin on August 22, 2020, 08:25:01 am
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Was reading news about gymshark's success from few gym bros to being valued at $1.4bn. I can't help but to think about what we're doing. I know many of us are earning a very good wage, perhaps most of us don't earn £500 per day but still better than most jobs.
For the highly ambitious few, if you're really want to go big. Which direction would you be thinking of taking your WC business to next?
some pointers wold be great
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I suppose you’ve got;
Creating a big company, I.e 10’s of staff.
Going into production, like gardiners etc.
Or, just hitting the jackpot with commercial contracts.
Those are the three most obvious.
Problem with window cleaning is, it kind of is what it is, it’s very hard to scale it up in the same way as gym shark for example.
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If I wanted to go big, I'd get out of window cleaning to do it.👍
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Window cleaning itself is never going to be big,
Your looking more at "contract cleaning" type of biz where you offer cleaning as a package like mitre or Norse
Just as the little guys feel bigger companies bring the prices down, the one man bands are a big block on a company going really big in the window cleaning sector
Darran
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You cant , theres not enough profit margin in it .
I think Lee pryor once quoted some figures of 1 million turnover to net profit 150k or something like that. When you add up all whats involved in getting to that level why would you do it when you could have just 1 guy working with you and stay just under VAT paying him 15/20k a year.
I mean to be a really big business with 10 million turnover or something would take a monumental effort, 100 vans or more....its not worth it, better looking for something else if you want to be a millionarie. Its not that easy to build systems and scale when you are relying on low payed numptys to go out and clean the work to the required standard.
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You cant , theres not enough profit margin in it .
I think Lee pryor once quoted some figures of 1 million turnover to net profit 150k or something like that. When you add up all whats involved in getting to that level why would you do it when you could have just 1 guy working with you and stay just under VAT paying him 15/20k a year.
I mean to be a really big business with 10 million turnover or something would take a monumental effort, 100 vans or more....its not worth it, better looking for something else if you want to be a millionarie. Its not that easy to build systems and scale when you are relying on low payed numptys to go out and clean the work to the required standard.
That’s right, it’s just not that kind of business. It isn’t scalable in the same way as others. You can have many staff, but they can only clean x amount of windows per day. There’s a limit to the earning potential, per van, per day.
On the whole, window cleaning suits small scale business models, or one man bands.
For me, window cleaning is a relatively stress free, simple job. That’s why I stick at it!
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We have no product. We’re just selling labour.
Can still earn a damn good living though.
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I think the problem is for a lot of window cleaners (myself included) is this is the first business they have had so they want to try and scale it without any real business knoweldge or experience of growing and scaling a business...not realising that they are struggling and banging their head against a wall because the basic model just isnt great. ....Perhaps if you were a business owner from another background you would easily see why its not really been done.
If it was easy it would have been done by now on a huge scale and to my knowledge it hasnt, at least not domestically, i mean there will be businesses with 5/10 or maybe 20 vans but really thats not a "big" business in the real world its a small enterprise.
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Lee Pryor broke it down like this:
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£1millon turnover
£150k vat
£384k 12 cleaners (includes holiday pay NI ect)
£45k 2 office staff
£39k van finance
£30k premises rent and bills
£40k diesel
£12k vehicle maintenance
£12k consumables - poles resin brushes ect ect
£2.5k accountant fees
£30k marketing (to maintain NOT grow)
£255,500.00 gross profit
£48,545 corporation tax at 19%
£206,955.00 Net profit
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why would you do it when you could have just 1 guy working with you and stay just under VAT paying him 15/20k a year.
Because if you did that (say your worker is self employed) you’d be earning:
Turnover : £85k
Salary of worker : £17.5k
Expenses-Fuel etc (20% of turnover) : £17k
Gross profit : £50,500
Corporation tax (19%) : £9,595
Net Profit : £40,905
£41k is alright I suppose, but which would you rather have? £41k or £207k
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I know which I would rather have.
I would also advise anyone considering taking someone on to employ them and do it properly. Not self employed.
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I’m not up for the stress. I do nigh on £50k a year turnover on 6 hours a day. I love my work life balance.
Don’t get me wrong, £200k plus a year is a very very nice wage. But to bank role a business the size of lee’s, whilst paying my mortgage and bringing up a family, just doesn’t interest me.
Lee had to make sacrifices most of us just aren’t in a position to do. Like selling our houses and moving in with parents.
It’s a very personal situation for most people.
Glad it worked for lee. Glad it works for those who want to remain a sole trader. Ultimately, though, window cleaning will always be a small business for the many.
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If there was big money in window cleaning you would have the big money chasers going after it, as Iv said many times there a reason why there is no Amazon or Virgin window cleaning.
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Window cleaning has always been a lifestyle choice it enables you to earn more than a lot of trades and still have your freedom I can’t see it in our lifetime as being anything else,employ small and don’t have intense hassle because it can be at times.
If someone said to me I’ll pay you 200k before the dreaded but you’ve got to employ 10+ people I know what I’d say to them,no thanks because then you’re life just becomes about work 1-2 million a year is not a big business but in this industry you’d feel like you were working in one with the stress at times. I can’t see me buying a swivel chair anytime soon in 30-40 years time it’ll be over enjoy living being a millionaire isn’t all it’s cracked up to be I know enough of em 🤣.
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Lee Pryor broke it down like this:
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£1millon turnover
£150k vat
£384k 12 cleaners (includes holiday pay NI ect)
£45k 2 office staff
£39k van finance
£30k premises rent and bills
£40k diesel
£12k vehicle maintenance
£12k consumables - poles resin brushes ect ect
£2.5k accountant fees
£30k marketing (to maintain NOT grow)
£255,500.00 gross profit
£48,545 corporation tax at 19%
£206,955.00 Net profit
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why would you do it when you could have just 1 guy working with you and stay just under VAT paying him 15/20k a year.
Because if you did that (say your worker is self employed) you’d be earning:
Turnover : £85k
Salary of worker : £17.5k
Expenses-Fuel etc (20% of turnover) : £17k
Gross profit : £50,500
Corporation tax (19%) : £9,595
Net Profit : £40,905
£41k is alright I suppose, but which would you rather have? £41k or £207k
Open your eyes Pete, even if he is getting £207K a year which I very much doubt ( for a start employee costs and others are way off) you still haven't deducted all the marketing costs and hours he has put into it before getting to this point, this has to be paid back before a real profit is made, put it this way if you had 3 million ( and I suspect he thinks its worth a lot more) to invest/buy would you put it into a company where it would take 15 to 20 years of problem free trading before you break even, its a house of cards/vanity project and he well knows it.
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Was reading news about gymshark's success from few gym bros to being valued at $1.4bn. I can't help but to think about what we're doing. I know many of us are earning a very good wage, perhaps most of us don't earn £500 per day but still better than most jobs.
For the highly ambitious few, if you're really want to go big. Which direction would you be thinking of taking your WC business to next?
some pointers wold be great
ironically ive just bought some jogging pants and a t shirt from gymshark for the first time the other day.....really good fitting clobber.....not too expensive either!(£25 each including delivery)....... :)
as for getting big in window cleaning...no...its not for me...id rather spend my time getting bigger in the gym myself..... ;D
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The op didn’t specify what big money to him was. I think anything into six figures is still considered high earning but everything is relative.
What everyone is searching for whether we realise it or not is contentment.
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The op didn’t specify what big money to him was. I think anything into six figures is still considered high earning but everything is relative.
What everyone is searching for whether we realise it or not is contentment.
I think some people struggle to accept that many others do have just that- without being millionaires or requiring constant recognition.👍
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Lee Pryor broke it down like this:
—
£1millon turnover
£150k vat
£384k 12 cleaners (includes holiday pay NI ect)
£45k 2 office staff
£39k van finance
£30k premises rent and bills
£40k diesel
£12k vehicle maintenance
£12k consumables - poles resin brushes ect ect
£2.5k accountant fees
£30k marketing (to maintain NOT grow)
£255,500.00 gross profit
£48,545 corporation tax at 19%
£206,955.00 Net profit
—
why would you do it when you could have just 1 guy working with you and stay just under VAT paying him 15/20k a year.
Because if you did that (say your worker is self employed) you’d be earning:
Turnover : £85k
Salary of worker : £17.5k
Expenses-Fuel etc (20% of turnover) : £17k
Gross profit : £50,500
Corporation tax (19%) : £9,595
Net Profit : £40,905
£41k is alright I suppose, but which would you rather have? £41k or £207k
I'd rather have 207k but would I rather have 207k and all the stress and struggle that would entail or would I rather invest in another business and have got their much easier that was my point.
But 85k minus 17.5k = 67.5k
Fuel costs for 2 vans would be about £2.5k a year.
2 lots insurance and tax is another 2k
1k accountant
I can't see there being much more than 10k a year total expenses.
So that's 57.5k
Take home would be about 46k in salary/dividends.
Now If the worker does 250 a day x 5 or 1250 a week
That would mean you only had to work 2 days a week to get it up to VAT turnover... to take home 46k
Considering all the stress of a much larger operation that's not a bad lifestyle at all especially when factor in you have 5 free days a week to pursue another business perhaps.
Of course everyone would want the 207k instead but at what cost to your sanity.
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The op didn’t specify what big money to him was. I think anything into six figures is still considered high earning but everything is relative.
What everyone is searching for whether we realise it or not is contentment.
That's the curse of the human condition always searching for contentment and happiness, something very few will ever find and I can say one thing I've never heard anyone say they found it in money. Yet we all pursue it like its going to bring us an end goal, when no one wants an end goal they just want the journey. How many times have you got something you wanted and then don't want it once you've got it. It's pure madness.
Bit of philosophy for you.
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Be careful what you wish for you mean.
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206-000 net profit how did you work that 1 out then.
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There’s plenty of millionaire stock market traders . That’s where you should look if you want to earn big
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There’s also plenty of traders that don’t earn the same as window cleaners.
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If I wanted to go big, I'd get out of window cleaning to do it.👍
Thanks, that made me feel better :-\
There’s plenty of millionaire stock market traders . That’s where you should look if you want to earn big
sure but how many of them are successful in the long term? only a minority. I rather stick to a real business. Perhaps not in window cleaning in the long term.
The op didn’t specify what big money to him was. I think anything into six figures is still considered high earning but everything is relative.
What everyone is searching for whether we realise it or not is contentment.
yeah true, personally for me I want to earn few hundred thousand per year. That's the money after everything including tax so the business need to generate considerable net profit.
perhaps window cleaning by itself is not enough. maybe do it as part of a larger business?
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Dont listen to them Amazin. Just remember whos giving the advice on here. People you have never met, which 99% of them are one man bands that have absolutley no first hand experience on subjects such as this. In the end your business is what you make of it. Thats the fun part. It is entirely possible to scale up this business and earn great money, while at the same time removing yourself from the day to day opperation, giving you back the freedom of your time. I have just bought 3 new vans taking us to 15 and £1.3 million a year turning. We have never been busier than right now. Taking on 70-100 new customers a week. I intend to be at £2 million a year within 4/5 years, and that includes taking a 1-2 year growth break from the end of this year.
As it says at the bottom of all my posts, The best way to predict the future is to create it.
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Out of that 1.3 million what do you end up with after everything is paid out like wages taxes vehicle maintenance etc
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Enough to have a nice life.
Sorry dont really want to get into the to and fro. I dont come on here much anymore, I just cant stand someone with goals and ambitions being talked out of it by people that dont know what their talking about. Ive spent the last 15 years being told what cant be done on here and elsewhere and yet here I am with it done.
Sorry. I wont be answering questions here because it always goes the same way with the same people. I can imagine who will be along in a minute to tell me im wrong. Have a good weekend guys.
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Dont listen to them Amazin. Just remember whos giving the advice on here. People you have never met, which 99% of them are one man bands that have absolutley no first hand experience on subjects such as this. In the end your business is what you make of it. Thats the fun part. It is entirely possible to scale up this business and earn great money, while at the same time removing yourself from the day to day opperation, giving you back the freedom of your time. I have just bought 3 new vans taking us to 15 and £1.3 million a year turning. We have never been busier than right now. Taking on 70-100 new customers a week. I intend to be at £2 million a year within 4/5 years, and that includes taking a 1-2 year growth break from the end of this year.
As it says at the bottom of all my posts, The best way to predict the future is to create it.
Fair play to you but he/she wants to know how to do it?
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A very very good standard of living can be achieved with no need to be on the tools with far less staff,very difficult to be a cash rich millionaire at this game not saying it can’t be done I’m sure it has somewhere in the world if you want to be a millionaire you need to be earning while you are asleep in a lot of cases.
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Out of that 1.3 million what do you end up with after everything is paid out like wages taxes vehicle maintenance etc
It's irrelevant what Lee takes home at the end of the day - the simple facts are you can make a good biz by scaling up and no need to be on the tools, you can also make a good living as a stand alone one man outfit - even with the size of Lees operation he is hardly a pebble on Brighton beach in biz terms - that's not a criticism it's reality , 2 million turnover is not massive considering the outgoings when compared to say a software developer or you tuber!
Who like to be Jeff bezos ? - I read somewhere amazons profit margin is less than 3%
Having staff is no more stress than being on your own, in someways less stressful - each to their own
Darran
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Genuine question for lee...how do you get that many customers a month? Do you target all the new build estates?
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Of course it matters what he ends up with that’s a ridiculous statement for you to make if you are in any business you are in it to make money,my issue is with just that point what you would end up with.
125k after Tax to run 10-15 vans imo is not worth it just my opinion double that with 10 vans of course it would be.
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Lol 3% of trillions of dollars pounds lira pesos euros 🤣,not 20% of 1-2 million look at it like that eggs and apples.
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Of course it matters what he ends up with that’s a ridiculous statement for you to make if you are in any business you are in it to make money,my issue is with just that point what you would end up with.
125k after Tax to run 10-15 vans imo is not worth it just my opinion double that with 10 vans of course it would be.
Exactly that's the difference in a business and a vanity project, I asked a hypothetical question, would anybody looking to invest in a business pay 3 million for Lees business and not one on here said they would, that says it all.
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Buy a McDonald’s or kfc franchise and you’ll make more money than you can in window cleaning
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I knew the guy who took 1 of the first ones on in the south east coast he paid at the time back in the 80s 250-500k,it made him millions by the time he retired.
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Enough to have a nice life.
Sorry dont really want to get into the to and fro. I dont come on here much anymore, I just cant stand someone with goals and ambitions being talked out of it by people that dont know what their talking about. Ive spent the last 15 years being told what cant be done on here and elsewhere and yet here I am with it done.
Sorry. I wont be answering questions here because it always goes the same way with the same people. I can imagine who will be along in a minute to tell me im wrong. Have a good weekend guys.
The only reason you're told you are wrong is because you are wrong and have no real answers for those who are prepared to tell you that, its why once again your only defence is to play the victim.
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Of course it matters what he ends up with that’s a ridiculous statement for you to make if you are in any business you are in it to make money,my issue is with just that point what you would end up with.
125k after Tax to run 10-15 vans imo is not worth it just my opinion double that with 10 vans of course it would be.
No it doesn't - same as I have no interest or need to know your profit - differing ways to make a living - as long as you do, who cares
Just you perceive your valuation on things and assume it's not worth it- is well worth it to some one else
Why you think running 15 vans is a vanity thing is beyond me
Darran
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I don’t think it’s a vanity thing at all the opposite in fact,my point when this first started on other threads weeks ago was that if someone not just him had 10 vans out and it netted him 10-13 grand a month it wouldn’t be worth the agro with all those employees he ain’t to far in front of someone with a couple of employees with top quality work.
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Pay 3 million for it lol 20% profit per annum how much would someone be expected to pay for that then,I would say 450-600,000 again - the Tax.
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Dont listen to them Amazin. Just remember whos giving the advice on here. People you have never met, which 99% of them are one man bands that have absolutley no first hand experience on subjects such as this. In the end your business is what you make of it. Thats the fun part. It is entirely possible to scale up this business and earn great money, while at the same time removing yourself from the day to day opperation, giving you back the freedom of your time. I have just bought 3 new vans taking us to 15 and £1.3 million a year turning. We have never been busier than right now. Taking on 70-100 new customers a week. I intend to be at £2 million a year within 4/5 years, and that includes taking a 1-2 year growth break from the end of this year.
As it says at the bottom of all my posts, The best way to predict the future is to create it.
Got to say that's serious going fair play 👍
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Pay 3 million for it lol 20% profit per annum how much would someone be expected to pay for that then,I would say 450-600,000 again - the Tax.
You realise that the profit is business profit and not Lees personal profit right?
Business profit and Lees personal earnings are two different things... (this is the same for most limited businesses)
I’d imagine Lee is being paid a wage and taking dividends etc... so the business profit is a little irrelevant in this context as his own wages will seen as a business expense.
Some of the stuff you say in relation to tax is questionable at best mate, I’m not sure you should be giving advice on it mate as you could mess someone up who doesn’t know better.
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Well I’ve not had anyone come on here that’s turning over 1 million and tell me any different,look at your million and deduct all those expenses with 10-15 staff then deduct your Vat and Tax before you know it a million notes don’t go far.
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Of course it matters what he ends up with that’s a ridiculous statement for you to make if you are in any business you are in it to make money,my issue is with just that point what you would end up with.
125k after Tax to run 10-15 vans imo is not worth it just my opinion double that with 10 vans of course it would be.
No it doesn't - same as I have no interest or need to know your profit - differing ways to make a living - as long as you do, who cares
Just you perceive your valuation on things and assume it's not worth it- is well worth it to some one else
Why you think running 15 vans is a vanity thing is beyond me
Darran
The op is looking to know is it possible to make 200K net profit running a window cleaning business, how do you answer this without discussing a persons profit ?
15 vans become a vanity project when the owning of 15 vans and all the stuff that comes with them is more important than the money they make you, example, Lees expenses are way too high to make real money which could have easily been sorted with a 15 van franchise, but then he wouldn't be the 17 employee boss and have 15 vans and all that goes with them to show off.
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Its a nice thought having fifteen vans plus but i couldn't do with the stress of running it .i know you have worked hard for it lee so good on you 🙂👍
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There’s stress and it being worth it all my argument is 150 or 200000 would not be worth it in my eyes this is nothing personal to Lee or anyone else in this position,I can imagine some of the stress involved but when you compare it to someone that just works for a bank and earns this as a wage I know which I’d choose it wouldn’t be the window cleaning option.
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Once you get a certain level of income its diminishing return anyway what that extra gets you.
Earn 50k a year and your life doesn't get much better earning 100k a year.
You just buy a bigger house, newer car, better brand name on your clothes etc.
I'm happy with how much I earn as a sole trade but I would like the free time a bigger business owner has that's the real success to me not the money its the time to enjoy it.
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This is the dilemma in any business I remember talking to a miserable millionaire once he said I wish I’d stayed small I have no time my kids have grown and left home and I wasn’t there,I said to him about making the jump to bigger things and his advise was you have to either stay smallish or go very big it’s very difficult being in between.
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good advice, im only 5ft 8. so I will always be a short ar$e.... lol
Darran
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I did say to him your Mrs doesn’t like you being in between us you miserable sod.
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Once you get a certain level of income its diminishing return anyway what that extra gets you.
Earn 50k a year and your life doesn't get much better earning 100k a year.
You just buy a bigger house, newer car, better brand name on your clothes etc.
I'm happy with how much I earn as a sole trade but I would like the free time a bigger business owner has that's the real success to me not the money its the time to enjoy it.
This is the point though the bigger business owner in this job doesn’t always get the free time,you would have just as much free time if you have a couple employed properly that knew the majority of the work and were able to do it on their own in a separate van.
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I have made it big after 4 years of leaving window cleaning, my round made a few K a month with little responsibility which is a good wage to some people . I started trading the stock market, and designing trading systems for funds . I enjoyed the window cleaning days though , especially now with lack of exercise
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I have made it big after 4 years of leaving window cleaning, my round made a few K a month with little responsibility which is a good wage to some people . I started trading the stock market, and designing trading systems for funds . I enjoyed the window cleaning days though , especially now with lack of exercise
I've often wondered how you are getting on. Glad its working for you.
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Make sure you stay indoors lockdown where you are again 🤣🤣🤣🤣
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I have made it big after 4 years of leaving window cleaning, my round made a few K a month with little responsibility which is a good wage to some people . I started trading the stock market, and designing trading systems for funds . I enjoyed the window cleaning days though , especially now with lack of exercise
......i much prefer working part time now,low stress,fresh air and earning around £4k a month window cleaning......
well done for trying something different!
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You’ve made it big when you are happy healthy and wake up and not have to worry about the bills,it also helps if you’re not laying next to Gemma Collins or similar 🤣🤣,making it through life happy is making it not having millions of ££ I see miserable people like that on a daily basis believe me.
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Daz you doing 4 k a month now you gone back to being part time 🤣🤣🤣,haven’t you heard the new grand a week is 2 grand we are living in the 21st century m8 lol.