Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Mike Burd on April 16, 2020, 06:36:36 pm

Title: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Mike Burd on April 16, 2020, 06:36:36 pm
Got 3 workers. All in their own vans. Totally contactless system in place. One guy says he’s not happy working in pandemic but other two Want to work.  Have them the choice morning after lockdown and had a vote. Obviously it’s pretty safe. We’ve not lost any work.

Any way unhappy worker has had 11 complaints in 3 weeks and getting shirty over it. Have warnedHim but he’s saying shouldn’t be working and that’s why he’s making mistakes. Have offered him unpaid leave, holiday pay but now he’s saying he’s stressed and he’s depressed. Have checked and not allowed to furlough as I’ll get a subbie to cover his  work.

In conversation with solicitor and he says ordinarily it’s gross misconduct and dismissal but solicitor reckons he’ll claim unsafe and tread carefully.

Not after advice. Just sharing.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Dave Willis on April 16, 2020, 06:52:13 pm
Yep there was a thread about this. Problem is it could depend on who he lives with too. Maybe his wife is high risk or even his mother/father if he’s still at home.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Mike Burd on April 16, 2020, 07:03:43 pm
Yep there was a thread about this. Problem is it could depend on who he lives with too. Maybe his wife is high risk or even his mother/father if he’s still at home.
Cheers. I’ll see if I can find it. No, he’s in a house share. No one needing shielding so can’t furlough him. If I could at this point I would. Its been two days of raised voices and just want him gone now but can’t sack him as he’s just over 2 years.  Not even registered with a GP but claiming depression.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: dazmond on April 16, 2020, 07:11:48 pm
Got 3 workers. All in their own vans. Totally contactless system in place. One guy says he’s not happy working in pandemic but other two Want to work.  Have them the choice morning after lockdown and had a vote. Obviously it’s pretty safe. We’ve not lost any work.

Any way unhappy worker has had 11 complaints in 3 weeks and getting shirty over it. Have warnedHim but he’s saying shouldn’t be working and that’s why he’s making mistakes. Have offered him unpaid leave, holiday pay but now he’s saying he’s stressed and he’s depressed. Have checked and not allowed to furlough as I’ll get a subbie to cover his  work.

In conversation with solicitor and he says ordinarily it’s gross misconduct and dismissal but solicitor reckons he’ll claim unsafe and tread carefully.

Not after advice. Just sharing.

thats the problem with employing.......glad im not in your shoes mate.......years ago you could just sack him and replace him with someone who wants to work......different these days unfortunately....... :(
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Mike Burd on April 16, 2020, 07:19:37 pm
Found the earlier thread. This guy is into music and ifs writing a score for a film (token pay) and I think he just wants to be furloughed to work on it. When the self employment 80% was announced he assumed I’d close up. Idiot didnt realise he works for a limited company and thought we were carrying on just because I wouldn’t get paid.

Accountant reckons we could close it down and furlough everyone but we can work safely and our customers seem exceptionally happy to see us so why would I. One of my guys couldn’t afford child maintenance on 80% and I couldn’t make up the shortfall. I’m in an at risk category myself and wouldn’t step foot in a supermarket but in my opinion we’re working like clockwork and no contract with customers. Love it!  ;D
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Richard iSparkle on April 16, 2020, 07:48:17 pm
solicitors will always advise you the most risk free way to go about things. they dont take risks. its not what you ask their advice for.

i think i would probably give discuss it with him, and if needed to give him a warning about dismissal, then get rid of him as you would at any other time.

he probably won't take you to court over it, but sometimes i think you need to show that you just won't stand for nonsense like this.

how long's he been working for you for anyhow?
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Smudger on April 16, 2020, 07:57:23 pm
he said over 2 years...

why not furlough him ?  you don't have to furlough all your staff

Darran
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Mike Burd on April 16, 2020, 08:28:22 pm
he said over 2 years...

why not furlough him ?  you don't have to furlough all your staff

Darran
Not allowed because we’re taking a subbie to cover his work. Basically we’d just be giving him government paid holiday. Employment specialists said we can’t do it.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Mike Burd on April 16, 2020, 08:29:13 pm
solicitors will always advise you the most risk free way to go about things. they dont take risks. its not what you ask their advice for.

i think i would probably give discuss it with him, and if needed to give him a warning about dismissal, then get rid of him as you would at any other time.

he probably won't take you to court over it, but sometimes i think you need to show that you just won't stand for nonsense like this.

how long's he been working for you for anyhow?
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: NWH on April 16, 2020, 08:31:16 pm
Get him when he comes back lol,does he still go shopping if he does that’ll give you a true insight into what he’s up to.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Smudger on April 16, 2020, 08:39:18 pm
Then it's time off unpaid - simple

Then on return you give him a list of errors with a  final written warning for poor work

Darran
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Ooooooog on April 16, 2020, 09:15:59 pm
Verbal, then written warning, then dismissal.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Lee Pryor on April 16, 2020, 09:30:34 pm
You can actually go straight to final warning if you can justify it. Especially if he has worked for less than 2 years.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Mike Burd on April 16, 2020, 09:31:37 pm
According to the solicitor we’ve got to tread carefully . My instinct is to sack him and I could barely contain my anger this morning. I’m working towards getting rid as the relationship is finished as far as I’m concerned. 

Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: KS Cleaning on April 16, 2020, 09:37:31 pm
I think you should be consulting ACAS mate. If you don’t go through the proper channels for dismissal you are leaving yourself wide open.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Mike Burd on April 16, 2020, 09:48:22 pm
I think you should be consulting ACAS mate. If you don’t go through the proper channels for dismissal you are leaving yourself wide open.
Trying to do it properly hence solicitor involved. In his opinion ordinarily it’s gross misconduct.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: NWH on April 16, 2020, 09:53:27 pm
Just make an excuse when it calms down and sack him.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: davids3511 on April 16, 2020, 11:19:50 pm
I think you should be consulting ACAS mate. If you don’t go through the proper channels for dismissal you are leaving yourself wide open.
Trying to do it properly hence solicitor involved. In his opinion ordinarily it’s gross misconduct.
Can't see how it's not gross misconduct even in these unusual circumstances. Let him keep going out and he'll single handedly finish your business. 11 in 3 weeks is really bad, especially for 2 years experience.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: dazmond on April 17, 2020, 08:07:55 am
I think you should be consulting ACAS mate. If you don’t go through the proper channels for dismissal you are leaving yourself wide open.
Trying to do it properly hence solicitor involved. In his opinion ordinarily it’s gross misconduct.
Can't see how it's not gross misconduct even in these unusual circumstances. Let him keep going out and he'll single handedly finish your business. 11 in 3 weeks is really bad, especially for 2 years experience.

I bumped into one of your franchisees the other day.....glad to see another window cleaner TBH!had a bit of a chat with him(from a distance obviously)....👍
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Stoots on April 17, 2020, 08:15:40 am
Just sack him. Hes refusing to work and he's making loads of mistakes.

Just follow your disciplinary procedure if you are worried. Written warning for the mistakes, another for refusing to work.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Dry Clean on April 17, 2020, 08:53:46 am
Just sack him. Hes refusing to work and he's making loads of mistakes.

Just follow your disciplinary procedure if you are worried. Written warning for the mistakes, another for refusing to work.
You cant sack someone for refusing to work during this pandemic and he's covering his backside by saying its being forced to work while being scared that's causing him to make the mistakes, his solicitor is right when he says the op needs to tread carefully.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Richard iSparkle on April 17, 2020, 09:11:48 am
you can sack someone for anything you want.

the question is is it worth the risk.

the risk of sacking him is he could decide to pursue you for unfair dismissal or similar.

the risk of keeping him are

1. it costs you money in the short term with him working badly
2. you loosing customers because of his bad attitude about being in work
2. it does your head in and leaves you angry and frustrated about work etc
3. it has a knock on effect to other employees.

just balance the cost of keeping him against the cost of sacking him.

he'll have 'mates' telling him that he shouldn't be working and that you cant sack him at the moment. when he realises you are serious about it he may well change his tune.

to be honest, i'd be most likely to follow the standard disciplinary procedure and sack the bloke unless he quickly changes his attitude and performance.

personally im not that interested in solicitors and their opinions. solicitors are risk averse and its their job to tell you what the risks are etc. my wife worked in HR for years and she's the same. fortunately i have her friends who are in HR and one of them I can have direct conversations like... 'so i need to get rid of this person... how do i do that the safest way...'

your an entrepreneur. we are risk takers.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Dry Clean on April 17, 2020, 09:19:59 am
Richard Iv a mate who got £40k for unfair dismissal, anyone of us can get emotional and angry when being taking for a mug by an employee or other, it takes a solicitor to keep us focused and to tell us how it is.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Richard iSparkle on April 17, 2020, 09:25:46 am
Richard Iv a mate who got £40k for unfair dismissal, anyone of us can get emotional and angry when being taking for a mug by an employee or other, it takes a solicitor to keep us focused and to tell us how it is.

yeh there's a risk for sure.

that sounds pretty extreme at 40000 so id be really interested to see that details.

i'd still probably sack the guy but like i say its about balancing the risks.

this sort of thing does my head in. sometimes you have to show you'll have the fight
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Soupy on April 17, 2020, 09:36:19 am
Richard Iv a mate who got £40k for unfair dismissal, anyone of us can get emotional and angry when being taking for a mug by an employee or other, it takes a solicitor to keep us focused and to tell us how it is.

yeh there's a risk for sure.

that sounds pretty extreme at 40000 so id be really interested to see that details.

i'd still probably sack the guy but like i say its about balancing the risks.

this sort of thing does my head in. sometimes you have to show you'll have the fight

To avoid unfair dismissal you'd probably need to suspend, on full pay, while you carry out an investigation. Have meetings, which would be difficult and as always, if there's an argument, the deck is stacked in their favour.

Furlough him on 80% for three weeks. Then decide what to do in three weeks time. Your HR person might be right, maybe not. I'd put my money on there being way bigger fish to fry as far as HMRC go, it's 80% of one employed window cleaners wage, the budget for this runs into the hundreds of billions.

It's going to cost you either way IMO, this is the best option for everyone involved.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Ooooooog on April 17, 2020, 09:56:41 am
Don’t think you can furlough someone and then get someone else in to do their work.

Run through your Covid risk assessment with him again,  in detail and explain why it is safe.
You can’t start pandering to someone’s anxieties.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Soupy on April 17, 2020, 09:57:42 am
Don’t think you can furlough someone and then get someone else in to do their work.

Run through your Covid risk assessment with him again,  in detail and explain why it is safe.
You can’t start pandering to someone’s anxieties.

What happens if he catches it?
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Ooooooog on April 17, 2020, 10:20:00 am
Don’t think you can furlough someone and then get someone else in to do their work.

Run through your Covid risk assessment with him again,  in detail and explain why it is safe.
You can’t start pandering to someone’s anxieties.

What happens if he catches it?

If he implements the procedures and uses the PPE, then there’s little risk.

What if someone crashes into him at work?
There’s always a risk of something happening.

Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Richard iSparkle on April 17, 2020, 10:26:39 am
We’re all gonna catch it

Nobody can know or prove  where they caught it from, but if he’s following safe working,

window cleaning, in a van on your own, with social distancing  is low risk.

Going to a shop or catching a bus is high risk
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Soupy on April 17, 2020, 10:46:49 am
Don’t think you can furlough someone and then get someone else in to do their work.

Run through your Covid risk assessment with him again,  in detail and explain why it is safe.
You can’t start pandering to someone’s anxieties.

What happens if he catches it?

If he implements the procedures and uses the PPE, then there’s little risk.

What if someone crashes into him at work?
There’s always a risk of something happening.

I was more concerned about the 5-7 days that he's wandering around your customers unaware he has it.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: G Griffin on April 17, 2020, 10:54:55 am
Richard Iv a mate who got £40k for unfair dismissal, anyone of us can get emotional and angry when being taking for a mug by an employee or other, it takes a solicitor to keep us focused and to tell us how it is.
Wasn't he one of the princes in the Tower?
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Dry Clean on April 17, 2020, 11:06:35 am
Richard Iv a mate who got £40k for unfair dismissal, anyone of us can get emotional and angry when being taking for a mug by an employee or other, it takes a solicitor to keep us focused and to tell us how it is.
Wasn't he one of the princes in the Tower?
No this was long before that, he was a union rep though, I'm sure you remember those Griff, you weren't always a Tory. lol
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Ooooooog on April 17, 2020, 11:07:55 am
Don’t think you can furlough someone and then get someone else in to do their work.

Run through your Covid risk assessment with him again,  in detail and explain why it is safe.
You can’t start pandering to someone’s anxieties.

What happens if he catches it?

If he implements the procedures and uses the PPE, then there’s little risk.

What if someone crashes into him at work?
There’s always a risk of something happening.

I was more concerned about the 5-7 days that he's wandering around your customers unaware he has it.

Issue a mask daily, gloves for each property, even over shoe things if you like.
Clean all vans and kit with hot soapy (soupy?) water every morning. Email all invoices, or defer payment for a couple of months?
If customers don’t want you there, then tell them you’ll be round when they’re ready.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Den68 on April 17, 2020, 11:10:15 am
Don’t think you can furlough someone and then get someone else in to do their work.

Run through your Covid risk assessment with him again,  in detail and explain why it is safe.
You can’t start pandering to someone’s anxieties.

What happens if he catches it?

If he implements the procedures and uses the PPE, then there’s little risk.

What if someone crashes into him at work?
There’s always a risk of something happening.

I was more concerned about the 5-7 days that he's wandering around your customers unaware he has it.
. Soupy  your  signature is great 😂
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: AuRavelling79 on April 17, 2020, 11:42:04 am
What was this employee like before this CV stuff?

If he was a good solid worker then I'd cut him some slack and say he must work with PPE and he can be very  careful. But there are a few things I don't get.

I find I am a bit slower in this CV situation  (taking precautions, more careful about hygiene and payment slips engaging with yakky customers, taking a little longer on houses which are normally unoccupied but people are about) but no less effective in quality of work.

If he has been a good worker and is not in the "vulnerable" category  I would call him in and have a discussion and tell him ...

1. I value his work until this point.
2. Being scared is no reason not to go to work as a socially distancing window cleaner. If he goes to the shops or out for exercise then solo WC should be fine. (one of my daughters works in a care home and one works in a supermarket and WC is far far less risky to the point of almost zero IMO)
3. I expect him to work and do a good job like his fellow employees who are willing to work. If there is any reasonable thing he needs for "protection" (he already has soap and water on board I presume?) like mask/gloves I would supply it.
4. The next time I receive a valid complaint from a customer will result in a disciplinary escalation.

If he refuses to work after the above then I would say I'm sorry but by keeping you on I am putting the whole business in jeopardy - you and I will have to part company - get your things and leave and I will forward you any owed money on payday.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: NWH on April 17, 2020, 11:56:31 am
At the end of the day if he wants to take it further that’s up to him but most people wouldn’t,first time he did something wrong he’d get a warning second time for something small he’d get another-written then some people would make his life miserable enough he’d go on his own.
If he went of his own accord you have no come back do you,just saying what some other people would do I couldn’t be that cruel 😉
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Slacky on April 17, 2020, 11:59:45 am
Don’t think you can furlough someone and then get someone else in to do their work.

Run through your Covid risk assessment with him again,  in detail and explain why it is safe.
You can’t start pandering to someone’s anxieties.

What happens if he catches it?

He'd have to prove it was caught whilst at work and as a result of his employers negligence.

Sack him.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Slacky on April 17, 2020, 12:00:43 pm
Don’t think you can furlough someone and then get someone else in to do their work.

Run through your Covid risk assessment with him again,  in detail and explain why it is safe.
You can’t start pandering to someone’s anxieties.

What happens if he catches it?

If he implements the procedures and uses the PPE, then there’s little risk.

What if someone crashes into him at work?
There’s always a risk of something happening.

I was more concerned about the 5-7 days that he's wandering around your customers unaware he has it.

He's not going round the customers properties French kissing them is he?
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: G Griffin on April 17, 2020, 12:09:55 pm
Richard Iv a mate who got £40k for unfair dismissal, anyone of us can get emotional and angry when being taking for a mug by an employee or other, it takes a solicitor to keep us focused and to tell us how it is.
Wasn't he one of the princes in the Tower?
No this was long before that, he was a union rep though, I'm sure you remember those Griff, you weren't always a Tory. lol
As much as I respect the Tory policy on the grant(s), I can also see through it.
It's not free money and they're not doing it for us, the window cleaners. It's an economic measure that will work, hopefully.
I don't see it as too good to be true. I see it as good and true.
There's no panic in Griffin Towers.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Smudger on April 17, 2020, 12:29:50 pm
Any help....

The government’s position is also consistent with the view currently being taken by ACAS, whose recent guidance (https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus) states:

“Some people might feel they do not want to go to work if they’re afraid of catching coronavirus. This could particularly be the case for those who are at higher risk.

An employer should listen to any concerns staff may have and should take steps to protect everyone. For example, they could offer extra car parking where possible so that people can avoid using public transport.

If an employee still does not want to go in, they may be able to arrange with their employer to take the time off as holiday or unpaid leave. The employer does not have to agree to this.

If an employee refuses to attend work without a valid reason, it could result in disciplinary action.”

It is worth noting, however, employees’ general right not to not to be subjected to any detriment or dismissal for leaving or refusing to return to a workplace where an employee is in danger which he/she “reasonably believed to be serious and imminent and which he could not reasonably have been expected to avert” under the ERA 1996.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: NWH on April 17, 2020, 12:31:59 pm
I must say though at the moment he would seem to have you over a barrel,any mention that he was told he had to go out to work from the beginning of all this and during would have a very good chance of winning in any court imo.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: AuRavelling79 on April 17, 2020, 01:08:34 pm
I must say though at the moment he would seem to have you over a barrel,any mention that he was told he had to go out to work from the beginning of all this and during would have a very good chance of winning in any court imo.

Not clear to me what is being said here.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: NWH on April 17, 2020, 01:34:08 pm
Sorry I mean if he were to be sacked he would have a good case.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: AuRavelling79 on April 17, 2020, 01:41:39 pm
Sorry I mean if he were to be sacked he would have a good case.

I don't see that.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Smudger on April 17, 2020, 02:27:14 pm
Over 2 years employment for one - insisting he work in a pandemic/national emergency for 2  - however if the errors/customer complaints are logged and discussed officially with the employee then you can start with written warnings leading to dismissal

Darran
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: AuRavelling79 on April 17, 2020, 03:09:51 pm
Over 2 years employment for one - insisting he work in a pandemic/national emergency for 2  - however if the errors/customer complaints are logged and discussed officially with the employee then you can start with written warnings leading to dismissal

Darran

He's not insisting he does anything not permitted by the government and indeed he is following government advice where it says businesses should continue if not specifically closed and can continue if it can be done so maintaining social distancing.

Twenty years ago employees in window cleaning were routinely sent up ladders 100 times a day; nowadays they deal with trip hazards and traffic. Corona is a very manageable risk for a wfp window cleaner. You need to be more cautious and thoughtful but it is easily done with good risk management.

Non essential factory work continues, non essential manufacturing continues as does construction. All these have far greater possibility of human to human contact than most external wfp work.

Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Smudger on April 17, 2020, 03:36:08 pm
Nothing is as simple and black/white or right/wrong, while you say he can work due to one line of text the overall message is stay at home, as I said before were not going to "work" as in a pace we are travelling from one property to another - no one can be certain you won't come into contact with people accidentally.

Rightly or wrongly this person claims to be worried about infection - as an employer you just need to realise and accept that ( even if it is a load of old bollo )

The simple and easy solution is give the guy time off, that's unpaid - he has has a subby lined up so no issue and in 12 weeks see if he wants to return to work or not otherwise issue a redundancy notice.

Darran
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Mike Burd on April 17, 2020, 03:44:40 pm
Any help....

The government’s position is also consistent with the view currently being taken by ACAS, whose recent guidance (https://www.acas.org.uk/coronavirus) states:

“Some people might feel they do not want to go to work if they’re afraid of catching coronavirus. This could particularly be the case for those who are at higher risk.

An employer should listen to any concerns staff may have and should take steps to protect everyone. For example, they could offer extra car parking where possible so that people can avoid using public transport.

If an employee still does not want to go in, they may be able to arrange with their employer to take the time off as holiday or unpaid leave. The employer does not have to agree to this.

If an employee refuses to attend work without a valid reason, it could result in disciplinary action.”

It is worth noting, however, employees’ general right not to not to be subjected to any detriment or dismissal for leaving or refusing to return to a workplace where an employee is in danger which he/she “reasonably believed to be serious and imminent and which he could not reasonably have been expected to avert” under the ERA 1996.
Yep, I offered holiday/unpaid leave two weeks ago, but at this stage following the raised voices with regard to the complaints and his unwillingness to accept there was any justification for them, he's just gone sick with "depression". He's received a letter advising him of the options he's been given:

Following on from the telephone conversations with myself and Mike earlier today and with Mike on Wednesday evening, I just wanted to confirm the position at the present time.
We understand you have concerns with regards to with Coronavirus, however we can continue to work and all small businesses have been encouraged to work by the Government if they can work safely. I have investigated the possibility of furloughing just you but we are unable to do this because we need to hire someone short term to do the work you don’t want to do.
We have implemented as many measures as we can to ensure all staff’s safety, including notifying all customers that windows are to be cleaned the day before you are due,  advising that we will not post paper invoices and are sending electronic invoices where possible, advising customers that we will adhere to the 2 metre distance and ensuring a supply of gloves for all staff to wear. We have also stopped going through houses to access back windows and stopped all internal cleans. In addition you work alone.
We have booked you off for the rest of this week and next week as sick.  Going forward if you wish to carry on sick leave we will need a certificate.  We have also offered you the option to take holidays or unpaid leave or a combination of both. We have strived to do everything we can as a responsible employer.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Mike Burd on April 17, 2020, 03:54:01 pm
Richard Iv a mate who got £40k for unfair dismissal, anyone of us can get emotional and angry when being taking for a mug by an employee or other, it takes a solicitor to keep us focused and to tell us how it is.

yeh there's a risk for sure.

that sounds pretty extreme at 40000 so id be really interested to see that details.

i'd still probably sack the guy but like i say its about balancing the risks.

this sort of thing does my head in. sometimes you have to show you'll have the fight

To avoid unfair dismissal you'd probably need to suspend, on full pay, while you carry out an investigation. Have meetings, which would be difficult and as always, if there's an argument, the deck is stacked in their favour.

Furlough him on 80% for three weeks. Then decide what to do in three weeks time. Your HR person might be right, maybe not. I'd put my money on there being way bigger fish to fry as far as HMRC go, it's 80% of one employed window cleaners wage, the budget for this runs into the hundreds of billions.

It's going to cost you either way IMO, this is the best option for everyone involved.
I'm not willing to furlough someone when I have been advised he doesn't qualify for the scheme by the employment specialists we've retained. My suspicion is the reason he's refusing unpaid or holiday entitlement is to force us into furloughing him.

His attitude towards the complaints and his general attitude have left me with little doubt that he's got to go now. My plan is immediately upon his return to issue a written warning regarding the complaints and his attitude  and go from there.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Slacky on April 17, 2020, 04:52:43 pm
Lay him off?
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: AuRavelling79 on April 17, 2020, 06:43:52 pm
Richard Iv a mate who got £40k for unfair dismissal, anyone of us can get emotional and angry when being taking for a mug by an employee or other, it takes a solicitor to keep us focused and to tell us how it is.

yeh there's a risk for sure.

that sounds pretty extreme at 40000 so id be really interested to see that details.

i'd still probably sack the guy but like i say its about balancing the risks.

this sort of thing does my head in. sometimes you have to show you'll have the fight

To avoid unfair dismissal you'd probably need to suspend, on full pay, while you carry out an investigation. Have meetings, which would be difficult and as always, if there's an argument, the deck is stacked in their favour.

Furlough him on 80% for three weeks. Then decide what to do in three weeks time. Your HR person might be right, maybe not. I'd put my money on there being way bigger fish to fry as far as HMRC go, it's 80% of one employed window cleaners wage, the budget for this runs into the hundreds of billions.

It's going to cost you either way IMO, this is the best option for everyone involved.
I'm not willing to furlough someone when I have been advised he doesn't qualify for the scheme by the employment specialists we've retained. My suspicion is the reason he's refusing unpaid or holiday entitlement is to force us into furloughing him.

His attitude towards the complaints and his general attitude have left me with little doubt that he's got to go now. My plan is immediately upon his return to issue a written warning regarding the complaints and his attitude  and go from there.

Look at the front page of Lee Pryor's website - it is obvious that "other responsible window cleaning companies" are working and taking steps to protect their employees and their customers.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: simon w on April 17, 2020, 07:19:55 pm
Why don't you just tell him the truth 'you don't like him and you don't want him working for you anymore'.

Truth is there will be other guys willing to fill his place a team player and someone who likes you, your other employees and is willing to do a good job and keep your customers happy.

He's had two good years working for you it sounds like it's time for him to move on he'll be happier working elsewhere  ;D
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Stoots on April 17, 2020, 07:24:39 pm
Just sack him. Hes refusing to work and he's making loads of mistakes.

Just follow your disciplinary procedure if you are worried. Written warning for the mistakes, another for refusing to work.
You cant sack someone for refusing to work during this pandemic and he's covering his backside by saying its being forced to work while being scared that's causing him to make the mistakes, his solicitor is right when he says the op needs to tread carefully.

You can sack someone for whatever you like, whenever you like.

However if he has been employed over 2 years he could claim unfair dismissal so to cover your back you should follow your companys disciplinary procedure. Refusing to work is a breach of contract that counts as misconduct. Simply give him a verbal warning, if he still refuses, written, final and then sack him.

As long as the employer is following government guidelines and can provide the correct PPE and social distancing etc then the employee has no grounds to refuse to work.

I agree the employee could try to make things awkward, but i wouldnt be blackmailed by him, document everything and follow the right procedures and he hasnt a leg to stand on.

Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: NWH on April 17, 2020, 08:29:24 pm
Richard Iv a mate who got £40k for unfair dismissal, anyone of us can get emotional and angry when being taking for a mug by an employee or other, it takes a solicitor to keep us focused and to tell us how it is.

yeh there's a risk for sure.

that sounds pretty extreme at 40000 so id be really interested to see that details.

i'd still probably sack the guy but like i say its about balancing the risks.

this sort of thing does my head in. sometimes you have to show you'll have the fight

To avoid unfair dismissal you'd probably need to suspend, on full pay, while you carry out an investigation. Have meetings, which would be difficult and as always, if there's an argument, the deck is stacked in their favour.

Furlough him on 80% for three weeks. Then decide what to do in three weeks time. Your HR person might be right, maybe not. I'd put my money on there being way bigger fish to fry as far as HMRC go, it's 80% of one employed window cleaners wage, the budget for this runs into the hundreds of billions.

It's going to cost you either way IMO, this is the best option for everyone involved.
I'm not willing to furlough someone when I have been advised he doesn't qualify for the scheme by the employment specialists we've retained. My suspicion is the reason he's refusing unpaid or holiday entitlement is to force us into furloughing him.

His attitude towards the complaints and his general attitude have left me with little doubt that he's got to go now. My plan is immediately upon his return to issue a written warning regarding the complaints and his attitude  and go from there.

Look at the front page of Lee Pryor's website - it is obvious that "other responsible window cleaning companies" are working and taking steps to protect their employees and their customers.
He is going back to work because he has lots of employees and probably knows the work will get eaten alive by the hyenas in his areas which it would do,work will be canvassed to death everywhere customer loyalty will be tested over the next couple of years big time.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: NWH on April 17, 2020, 08:35:29 pm
It’s not a case that he or anyone is acting responsibly like all of us working you have to keep going as much as you can,like I said other WCs will be out looking for business.
Forget the furlough business with this job it’s all based on loyalty and trust,if decide not to work I know for a fact people still want there windows cleaned I’ve heard it for nearly 5 weeks,a company of a certain size would lose 100s if not 1000s of customers if they didn’t work for nearly 2 months.
Say what you like about the guidelines etc people are saying it doesn’t effect you blah blah blah,you decide to stay at home for whatever reason you have in you’re head customers have their view about wanting the windows cleaned.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Jay Le Huray on April 18, 2020, 09:57:34 am
you might be interested in reading this

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/careersandeducation/coronavirus-what-to-do-if-you-think-you-might-be-laid-off/ar-BB12OEih?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: NWH on April 18, 2020, 10:18:27 am
By the time you’ve read up on your rights got  a solicitor etc you will be out of you’re house evicted cars and vans towed away,they’ll be so many for sale boards about it’ll look like they are plugging local elections.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Ascjim on April 19, 2020, 08:22:53 am
you might be interested in reading this

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/careersandeducation/coronavirus-what-to-do-if-you-think-you-might-be-laid-off/ar-BB12OEih?ocid=spartanntp

This is a different situation. Being layed off and being sacked because you refuse to work are different things.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: harleyman on April 19, 2020, 09:57:01 am
Dump and replace with2......
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Dave Willis on April 19, 2020, 10:29:48 am
I don’t see many Tesco staff refusing to work so I guess he’ll go down the non essential worker route.
He’s probably looking at 90% of the country sat on their arses having a free holiday in the sunshine and can’t see why he shouldn’t do the same. Can’t blame him really.

Sack him.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Mike Burd on April 19, 2020, 10:32:45 am
I don’t see many Tesco staff refusing to work so I guess he’ll go down the non essential worker route.
He’s probably looking at 90% of the country sat on their arses having a free holiday in the sunshine and can’t see why he shouldn’t do the same. Can’t blame him really.

Sack him.
My daughter said he makes her really angry when she looks at the millions who’ve lost their jobs and those that have to work in Tescos on far less money. I will be sacking him. It’s just working out how to do it with lead risk.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Soupy on April 19, 2020, 10:47:11 am
I don’t see many Tesco staff refusing to work so I guess he’ll go down the non essential worker route.
He’s probably looking at 90% of the country sat on their arses having a free holiday in the sunshine and can’t see why he shouldn’t do the same. Can’t blame him really.

Sack him.
My daughter said he makes her really angry when she looks at the millions who’ve lost their jobs and those that have to work in Tescos on far less money. I will be sacking him. It’s just working out how to do it with lead risk.

How often do you go round? 8 weekly?
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: G Griffin on April 19, 2020, 10:56:26 am
I don’t see many Tesco staff refusing to work so I guess he’ll go down the non essential worker route.
He’s probably looking at 90% of the country sat on their arses having a free holiday in the sunshine and can’t see why he shouldn’t do the same. Can’t blame him really.

Sack him.
My daughter said he makes her really angry when she looks at the millions who’ve lost their jobs and those that have to work in Tescos on far less money. I will be sacking him. It’s just working out how to do it with lead risk.
Colonel Mustard in the conservatory?
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Mike Burd on April 19, 2020, 11:00:36 am
I don’t see many Tesco staff refusing to work so I guess he’ll go down the non essential worker route.
He’s probably looking at 90% of the country sat on their arses having a free holiday in the sunshine and can’t see why he shouldn’t do the same. Can’t blame him really.

Sack him.
My daughter said he makes her really angry when she looks at the millions who’ve lost their jobs and those that have to work in Tescos on far less money. I will be sacking him. It’s just working out how to do it with lead risk.

How often do you go round? 8 weekly?
About 50/50 8 and 4 weekly.
Title: Re: Employee doesn’t want to work
Post by: Mike Burd on April 19, 2020, 11:01:19 am
I don’t see many Tesco staff refusing to work so I guess he’ll go down the non essential worker route.
He’s probably looking at 90% of the country sat on their arses having a free holiday in the sunshine and can’t see why he shouldn’t do the same. Can’t blame him really.

Sack him.
My daughter said he makes her really angry when she looks at the millions who’ve lost their jobs and those that have to work in Tescos on far less money. I will be sacking him. It’s just working out how to do it with lead risk.
Colonel Mustard in the conservatory?
Ha ha!