Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: jo5hm4n on April 08, 2020, 10:03:37 am
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Okay so first of all i have contacted pure freedom several times to try and resolve the issue. Still not successful so will get in contact with them again, however i thought i would post on here first to see if any of you guys have ever had similiar problems!
System: 650L Delivery Only Twin Pump/Controller Single Battery system, no split relay, charged every night. Shurflo Pumps, pure freedom controllers, 110A Leisure Battery. 4 Year old system installation by Pure Freedom.
So the problem started about 3 months ago when the battery voltage seemed low, and one of the controllers kept turning off randomly when in use, so i thought it was a wiring issue. Then however i kept checking the Voltage and it was reading between 11.6-12.2, which im told is very low! Should be reading about 12.4-12.8 for a normal healthy battery?
The battery is 1 year old. I thought, right maybe it is the pumps that are the problem? They hadn't been changed for 4 years and i wondered if they were drawing more power. So we changed the pumps. This did increase the flow, and decrease the time it took for battery to go low, but it still did not fix the problem at all.
So i thought right its got to be either the wiring or the battery? Ordered a replacement battery and immediately the battery was reading much higher again 12.5/12.6. This was 4 weeks ago. I also replaced the inline fuse and wiring on one of the flow controllers to see if that effected things.
Well that was 4 weeks ago and things seemed okay. The battery voltage wasn't perfect but it was reading 12.6 or higher most mornings after a full charge, and my worker said it was lasting all day no issues at all as it should be.
Last friday after a day of work i checked his system and it was reading 11.9 when not in use, which to me i am pretty sure is far too low even after a 6 hour work day for one operator. So didnt worry too much and left it.
My employee went out Monday all day no problems, however Monday night he forgot to put the system on charge(this is rare he does this).
So he went out all day Tuesday without system being charged. He lasted until 3pm and with about an hours work left to go his system died on him, both controllers turned off completely. Now this i can understand as its happened to me before 2 years ago with another van system that was working perfectly fine.
Anyway so he charges the system last night, and he said he checked the voltage before charging it and it was reading 7.5??????
He charged the system for well over 12 hours last night, and this morning hes gone to turn it on and the voltage is only reading 11.9 not in use.
So i popped over to see what the issue was. By the time i got there 15 minutes later the reading was now at 11.7 not in use. After talking to him for about 15 minutes about why this could be happening the voltage was now reading 11.3 not in use.
So what the hell could this issue be? I've changed both pumps, the battery, some of the wiring from 1 controller to battery. What else could be doing this? Could it be the C Tek Charger i use? Is it knackered? Is the wiring knackered? Needs all replacing? I just don't know what to do, but i can't believe that 2 batteries back to back are faulty knackered it doesn't add up.
Its a simple system so im baffled to what is wrong here.
Please help if you can ;) ;) ;) ;)
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I’d recheck all connections. Maybe some are hidden under sheathing or similar.
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I’m leaning toward a battery fault , either that or you are taking too much from the battery before it gets a recharge .
I use a 110 amp , I consume about 35 amps a day , it then gets put on charge when I get home , it’s usually fully charged by bedtime , it’s then switched off and rested until the morning , in the morning it always reads 13.2
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Yes,spunds like a wiring issue.
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Okay so first of all i have contacted pure freedom several times to try and resolve the issue. Still not successful so will get in contact with them again, however i thought i would post on here first to see if any of you guys have ever had similiar problems!
System: 650L Delivery Only Twin Pump/Controller Single Battery system, no split relay, charged every night. Shurflo Pumps, pure freedom controllers, 110A Leisure Battery. 4 Year old system installation by Pure Freedom.
So the problem started about 3 months ago when the battery voltage seemed low, and one of the controllers kept turning off randomly when in use, so i thought it was a wiring issue. Then however i kept checking the Voltage and it was reading between 11.6-12.2, which im told is very low! Should be reading about 12.4-12.8 for a normal healthy battery?
The battery is 1 year old. I thought, right maybe it is the pumps that are the problem? They hadn't been changed for 4 years and i wondered if they were drawing more power. So we changed the pumps. This did increase the flow, and decrease the time it took for battery to go low, but it still did not fix the problem at all.
So i thought right its got to be either the wiring or the battery? Ordered a replacement battery and immediately the battery was reading much higher again 12.5/12.6. This was 4 weeks ago. I also replaced the inline fuse and wiring on one of the flow controllers to see if that effected things.
Well that was 4 weeks ago and things seemed okay. The battery voltage wasn't perfect but it was reading 12.6 or higher most mornings after a full charge, and my worker said it was lasting all day no issues at all as it should be.
Last friday after a day of work i checked his system and it was reading 11.9 when not in use, which to me i am pretty sure is far too low even after a 6 hour work day for one operator. So didnt worry too much and left it.
My employee went out Monday all day no problems, however Monday night he forgot to put the system on charge(this is rare he does this).
So he went out all day Tuesday without system being charged. He lasted until 3pm and with about an hours work left to go his system died on him, both controllers turned off completely. Now this i can understand as its happened to me before 2 years ago with another van system that was working perfectly fine.
Anyway so he charges the system last night, and he said he checked the voltage before charging it and it was reading 7.5??????
He charged the system for well over 12 hours last night, and this morning hes gone to turn it on and the voltage is only reading 11.9 not in use.
So i popped over to see what the issue was. By the time i got there 15 minutes later the reading was now at 11.7 not in use. After talking to him for about 15 minutes about why this could be happening the voltage was now reading 11.3 not in use.
So what the hell could this issue be? I've changed both pumps, the battery, some of the wiring from 1 controller to battery. What else could be doing this? Could it be the C Tek Charger i use? Is it knackered? Is the wiring knackered? Needs all replacing? I just don't know what to do, but i can't believe that 2 batteries back to back are faulty knackered it doesn't add up.
Its a simple system so im baffled to what is wrong here.
Please help if you can ;) ;) ;) ;)
My gut is going with p&f's response.
I would check to see what charge your ctek charger is putting out first when connected directly to your battery.
You need to test this at the battery with a multimeter using the direct current volt settings. This must be tested at the battery terminals. Forget the controllers read out atm.
Ideally you should see a charge voltage of around 13.9 or higher voltage. If it's lower then suspect the battery charger.
Then put the charger onto the van's starter battery. If it shows a higher voltage then the charger looks ok and focus must go back to the battery.
There are some leisure batteries that are class c. These are useless for window cleaners. You need to look at class b.
On the ncc verified leisure battery scheme report a class c leisure battery from Halfords is only good for 80 discharge cycles.
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I’d recheck all connections. Maybe some are hidden under sheathing or similar.
Don't think it can be the connections because i checked the voltage between the battery and the controller and it was almost exactly the same. The issue seems to be either with the charger or the battery itself.
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I’m leaning toward a battery fault , either that or you are taking too much from the battery before it gets a recharge .
I use a 110 amp , I consume about 35 amps a day , it then gets put on charge when I get home , it’s usually fully charged by bedtime , it’s then switched off and rested until the morning , in the morning it always reads 13.2
Could you do me a massive favour please? Could you check your voltage at the battery after its been charged, but also whilst its being charged to see how much the charger is actually providing to the battery?
The battery gets recharged every day normally without any issues for 4 years so i dont think its that.
I think its a battery fault too. I checked 3 different c Tek Chargers today and all of them read 12.6 on the battery whilst connected to power. This should be alot higher. I checked another slightly dud battery ive got and that was reading 13.0 with the same 3 chargers straight away. So i think the issue is with the battery not the charger.
Pure freedom have said they will send a replacement battery out, but they have no idea why a month old battery is only showing 12.6V when connected to charger and mains.
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My gut is going with p&f's response.
I would check to see what charge your ctek charger is putting out first when connected directly to your battery.
You need to test this at the battery with a multimeter using the direct current volt settings. This must be tested at the battery terminals. Forget the controllers read out atm.
Ideally you should see a charge voltage of around 13.9 or higher voltage. If it's lower then suspect the battery charger.
But put the charger onto the van's starter battery. If it shows a higher voltage then the charger looks ok and focus must go back to the battery.
There are some leisure batteries that are class c. These are useless for window cleaners. You need to look at class b.
On the ncc verified leisure battery scheme report a class c leisure battery from Halfords is only good for 80 discharge cycles.
So i checked 3 different C Tek Chargers today and read exactly the same reading on the battery terminal of 12.6 when charging. I connected the same chargers to a different battery(another slightly dud one) and this was reading 13.0 when charging.
So the fact that the chargers are all consistently the same surely the problem must be with the battery.
I just find it odd that a battery less than a month old is showing a charging voltage of less than another battery which is a year old(also dud).
Pure Freedom are sending me a replacement battery.
I am not sure what class the battery is, but its the highest recommended one from PureFreedom.
This is the battery i use - https://purefreedom.co.uk/platinum-110ah-leisure-battery.html
Has worked spot on for the last 4 years, only been having problems last 3 months with 3 different batteries!! Weird!!
I'm going to redo all the wiring when this replacement battery arrives
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what split charge relay are you using? if you are not using one then you should be.
could be a long list of things, you are the best person to diagnose as you are there, check and re check everything, could even be a corroded fuse or your calibration settings too high so the pumps are drawing a lot of power
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what split charge relay are you using? if you are not using one then you should be.
could be a long list of things, you are the best person to diagnose as you are there, check and re check everything, could even be a corroded fuse or your calibration settings too high so the pumps are drawing a lot of power
Not using Split charge relay and happy with our system without one for now. What should Calibration settings be on? Standard Pure Freedom Controller.
Thanks
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My gut is going with p&f's response.
I would check to see what charge your ctek charger is putting out first when connected directly to your battery.
You need to test this at the battery with a multimeter using the direct current volt settings. This must be tested at the battery terminals. Forget the controllers read out atm.
Ideally you should see a charge voltage of around 13.9 or higher voltage. If it's lower then suspect the battery charger.
But put the charger onto the van's starter battery. If it shows a higher voltage then the charger looks ok and focus must go back to the battery.
There are some leisure batteries that are class c. These are useless for window cleaners. You need to look at class b.
On the ncc verified leisure battery scheme report a class c leisure battery from Halfords is only good for 80 discharge cycles.
So i checked 3 different C Tek Chargers today and read exactly the same reading on the battery terminal of 12.6 when charging. I connected the same chargers to a different battery(another slightly dud one) and this was reading 13.0 when charging.
So the fact that the chargers are all consistently the same surely the problem must be with the battery.
I just find it odd that a battery less than a month old is showing a charging voltage of less than another battery which is a year old(also dud).
Pure Freedom are sending me a replacement battery.
I am not sure what class the battery is, but its the highest recommended one from PureFreedom.
This is the battery i use - https://purefreedom.co.uk/platinum-110ah-leisure-battery.html
Has worked spot on for the last 4 years, only been having problems last 3 months with 3 different batteries!! Weird!!
I'm going to redo all the wiring when this replacement battery arrives
You need to change just one thing at a time. It's a process of elimination. Eventually you will get to the bottom of it.
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I have changed everything except the charger, and the wiring. Im losing patience now, its cost my worker 2 days income which could of easily been avoided if i just went chicken oriental and got the whole lot done ages ago. Downtime can be more costly then replacement parts!
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According to the NCC verified leisure battery report this battery is a class c and is good for 70 discharge and recharge cycles. And they aren't even full discharge cycles - only to 50% DOD (depth of discharge)
https://www.thencc.org.uk/downloads/Leisure_Battery_Register_Website_November_2019.pdf
Its not a quality battery and in my opinion totally not suitable for window cleaning. That's why you are getting so many failures. Tell P/F to send out a quality battery.
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I will second the above , I used to use those batteries in 85 amp size , I was only paying about £50 a pop so that’s the sign that they are not the best out there .
That battery that is in current use , is it running 2 controllers and 2 pumps all the time ?
Do you have power reels ?
I’m still going with a cheap battery that has been used beyond safe discharge levels !
I will check the details you ask for in a mo , the battery has been at rest over night so I can guarantee that it will be around the 13.2 mark
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According to the NCC verified leisure battery report this battery is a class c and is good for 70 discharge and recharge cycles. And they aren't even full discharge cycles - only to 50% DOD (depth of discharge)
https://www.thencc.org.uk/downloads/Leisure_Battery_Register_Website_November_2019.pdf
Its not a quality battery and in my opinion totally not suitable for window cleaning. That's why you are getting so many failures. Tell P/F to send out a quality battery.
I wouldn't take that information as gospel though Spruce.
I've been using a Yuasa Halfords hlb681 battery for more than 2 years and it gets charged after every working day so has well in excess of the 85 charging cycles that chart suggests.
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OK so just got those figures you wanted , I am using a Numax XV31MF 105 amp and am charging with a £40 Halfords Advanced fully automatic charger .
Battery charged and rested ......13.1V
Charger at full supply....................14.7V
Charger on maintain......................13.7V
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What Ctek charger are you using?
It will be mxs. (Something).
Also, if your worker is perhaps forgetting more than he says to charge the battery this could be the problem too.
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What you are saying about your Ctek makes sense , as it senses the battery getting full it then lowers the charging voltage .
If the battery is shot the charger thinks it’s full and lowers the charge rate , so your battery never actually charges due to the memory of it being destroyed .
I have an 85 amp Numax that behaves exactly the same , mind you I was using it to start the van and run a pump and diesel heater , it lasted 1 year and never had a bench charge , the only charge it got was from the alternator and 120w of solar
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That being said I am Numax through and through now , £96 for a 105 amp is peanuts
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What Ctek charger are you using?
It will be mxs. (Something).
Also, if your worker is perhaps forgetting more than he says to charge the battery this could be the problem too.
Ctek MXs5.
No its not that because before "Corona" i checked that the van was on charge every night before leaving the office.
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According to the NCC verified leisure battery report this battery is a class c and is good for 70 discharge and recharge cycles. And they aren't even full discharge cycles - only to 50% DOD (depth of discharge)
https://www.thencc.org.uk/downloads/Leisure_Battery_Register_Website_November_2019.pdf
Its not a quality battery and in my opinion totally not suitable for window cleaning. That's why you are getting so many failures. Tell P/F to send out a quality battery.
If this is accurate then i can't understand why for the last 4 years we have had literally 0 issues with this battery. I've also spoke to PureFreedoms managing director in depth about this battery and he said they have tested and used about 5 different batteries over the years and this has proved to be the best for them with the least amount of returns and complaints.
If you know the MD at PF then you know he has a good general knowledge of most things i've spoken to him about a dozen times and half the things he talks about goes straight over my head, he gets too technical at times! Some companies the office staff are just air heads!!!
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I will second the above , I used to use those batteries in 85 amp size , I was only paying about £50 a pop so that’s the sign that they are not the best out there .
That battery that is in current use , is it running 2 controllers and 2 pumps all the time ?
Do you have power reels ?
I’m still going with a cheap battery that has been used beyond safe discharge levels !
I will check the details you ask for in a mo , the battery has been at rest over night so I can guarantee that it will be around the 13.2 mark
The battery in use, is currently only running 1 pump and 1 controller, no electric reel either. If anything the battery is overkill for its use.
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OK so just got those figures you wanted , I am using a Numax XV31MF 105 amp and am charging with a £40 Halfords Advanced fully automatic charger .
Battery charged and rested ......13.1V
Charger at full supply....................14.7V
Charger on maintain......................13.7V
See now that voltage reading is impressive! If my battery could read those levels it would proably last 3 days without needing a charge.
Out of curiosity can i assume you were checking the voltage reading from battery terminals rather than the controller. I've noticed that there is often volt drop between the controller and the battery of about 0.3 or sometimes higher.
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According to the NCC verified leisure battery report this battery is a class c and is good for 70 discharge and recharge cycles. And they aren't even full discharge cycles - only to 50% DOD (depth of discharge)
https://www.thencc.org.uk/downloads/Leisure_Battery_Register_Website_November_2019.pdf
Its not a quality battery and in my opinion totally not suitable for window cleaning. That's why you are getting so many failures. Tell P/F to send out a quality battery.
If this is accurate then i can't understand why for the last 4 years we have had literally 0 issues with this battery. I've also spoke to PureFreedoms managing director in depth about this battery and he said they have tested and used about 5 different batteries over the years and this has proved to be the best for them with the least amount of returns and complaints.
If you know the MD at PF then you know he has a good general knowledge of most things i've spoken to him about a dozen times and half the things he talks about goes straight over my head, he gets too technical at times! Some companies the office staff are just air heads!!!
I can only quote what the NCC themselves say regarding their testing process. I can only hope as a consumer that their performance findings and ratings aren't biased.
With modern leisure vehicles featuring more technology and electrical appliances than ever before, buying an NCC Verified Leisure Battery gives consumers confidence that the battery they purchase for use is fit for purpose and will perform as advertised. Also, the NCC is encouraging its leisure vehicle member manufacturers to fit NCC verified leisure batteries.
Battery verification comes via a comprehensive, industry leading, testing process conducted by suitably certified and audited test houses. Batteries will be verified and labelled accordingly, into three categories: A, B and C, depending on their capacity and intended purpose:
• Category A is for batteries with a higher storage capacity for people who frequently use their touring caravan or motorhome away from an electrical hook-up:
• Category B batteries are aimed at those who frequently use sites with hook-up facilities, but require a greater battery capacity to operate devices such as motor movers:
• Category C batteries are for users that require a lower capacity battery to cover basic operation of their habitation equipment for short periods away from an electrical hook-up:
They say that most manufacturers have signed up to this concept. So the manufacturers of Platinum Batteries haven't challenged the charging cycle performance of that 'model' of battery.
There are a couple of battery manufacturers that don't appear on this list - I presume that its because they haven't signed up to having their battery performance rated.
A few years back numerous windies were recommending the Halford's supplied Leisure battery made by Yuasa as a good buy. When then started hearing more and more complaints of batteries not lasting. There wasn't an answer to this until the NCC Verified Leisure Battery testing provided the answer.
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All at terminals with a stand-alone power analyser, as you can see here the charger isn’t plugged in
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1586426035_C8CD3900-0DFE-47C8-9D2F-02EDC09C434C.png)
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what split charge relay are you using? if you are not using one then you should be.
could be a long list of things, you are the best person to diagnose as you are there, check and re check everything, could even be a corroded fuse or your calibration settings too high so the pumps are drawing a lot of power
Not using Split charge relay and happy with our system without one for now. What should Calibration settings be on? Standard Pure Freedom Controller.
Thanks
you should be using one, fit a split charging relay controller, very easy to install,
https://purefreedom.co.uk/flowmaster-digital-pump-controller-with-battery-charger-facility.html
calibration varies from controller to controller, you can set the calibration by using the auto cal feature in the controller, or set it yourself it is very easy to do
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But I think you have to remember to turn those controller ones off when you finish work?
I'd rather have a fully automatic battery to battery charger or scr to help top up.
Just my two pennies worth.
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But I think you have to remember to turn those controller ones off when you finish work?
I'd rather have a fully automatic battery to battery charger or scr to help top up.
Just my two pennies worth.
no you can leave them on or turn them off makes no difference, they are a fully automatic voltage sensing split charge relay, I have them in 5 out of 7 of my vans(2 have smart alternators so use b2b chargers) and I never have to recharge the batterys
for the cost which is only slightly more than a normal flow controller they are well worth it, battery to battery chargers are much higher cost
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The Spring one I had some years back (v7 I think) you had to hold the enter button after use to put it in charge mode if memory serves me right? And leaving the display flashing ‘CHG’ all night whilst not charging is surely a drain even if a small one. So they’re not fully automatic like a battery to battery or scr. And I thought they had a very low charge rate. They were only on the standard skinny little cables that came with the controller. Maybe the newer ones are better but I didn’t think much of it personally.
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The Spring one I had some years back (v7 I think) you had to hold the enter button after use to put it in charge mode if memory serves me right? And leaving the display flashing ‘CHG’ all night whilst not charging is surely a drain even if a small one. So they’re not fully automatic like a battery to battery or scr. And I thought they had a very low charge rate. They were only on the standard skinny little cables that came with the controller. Maybe the newer ones are better but I didn’t think much of it personally.
This is one of the reasons I rarely post on forums now, there is always someone who has little or no experience who knows it all, I wasn’t trying to convince you Simon I was trying to help the op when I shouldn’t have bothered as there is not even a thank you. You can tell this forum is full of window cleaners
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Scrimble thank you for your input on split relay charge. I've been using leisure battery only and charging now for 4 years and its worked just fine for us, other than these recent issues so too be honest i dont want to change over. New battery has now been sent out i will be testing it on monday!
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I have changed everything except the charger, and the wiring. Im losing patience now, its cost my worker 2 days income which could of easily been avoided if i just went chicken oriental and got the whole lot done ages ago. Downtime can be more costly then replacement parts!
Spot on there much more costly to be off rather than to have paid 100quid or so for a pump etc.