Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: rb4no on January 14, 2020, 03:13:48 pm
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Need some advice on carbon poles. I've two poles an older IONICS carbon pole and a shorter Phantom Carbon pole. The IONICS has a deep thickly coated epoxy coating on it, which I think makes it exceptionally hard wearing, no black hands and no obvious signs of wear, however my phantom pole after a month of usage gives me black hands and looks worn and well used already. It does however still work properly and I actually really like it. Question is could you coat the pole sections with say a clear coat lacquer to seal the pole? Has anyone done this before, if so what prep would you do? thanks ahead!
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I find this black hand thing rather odd.
I used to have two poles, both SLXs (Different lengths) and one gave me black hand something terrible and the other one hardly ever did. My current everyday pole is an Xtreme. Somedays it gives me blackhand and other days it doesn't.
One big help I've found is to keep up with regular maintenance. During the winter, I strip the Xtreme down every two weeks, thorouly clean it inside and out and retape it. If it's been a really wet week I'll do it after one week. Every time I do it I find plenty of grit embedded in the tape.
It would be good to know if they can be recoated but I doubt anything we could apply would last long in the face of all that grit.
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Over Christmas I dug my 4 year old slx 22 out of the garage. It was badly worn (black hands) and all clamps either worn or broken.
I stripped it down, sanded it then treated it to new clamps and a few coats of laquer, I wouldn't say its like new but it's certainly useable and no more black hands.
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Need some advice on carbon poles. I've two poles an older IONICS carbon pole and a shorter Phantom Carbon pole. The IONICS has a deep thickly coated epoxy coating on it, which I think makes it exceptionally hard wearing, no black hands and no obvious signs of wear, however my phantom pole after a month of usage gives me black hands and looks worn and well used already. It does however still work properly and I actually really like it. Question is could you coat the pole sections with say a clear coat lacquer to seal the pole? Has anyone done this before, if so what prep would you do? thanks ahead!
Clear engine lacquer works much better than clear paint lacquer. Halford paint lacquer is rubbish.
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I find this black hand thing rather odd.
I used to have two poles, both SLXs (Different lengths) and one gave me black hand something terrible and the other one hardly ever did. My current everyday pole is an Xtreme. Somedays it gives me blackhand and other days it doesn't.
One big help I've found is to keep up with regular maintenance. During the winter, I strip the Xtreme down every two weeks, thorouly clean it inside and out and retape it. If it's been a really wet week I'll do it after one week. Every time I do it I find plenty of grit embedded in the tape.
It would be good to know if they can be recoated but I doubt anything we could apply would last long in the face of all that grit.
if its one thing i hate about gardiner poles its the joint stop tape.... ::)roll...it gets chewed up when taking the sections apart...it really does my head in...i end up just ripping it off and not bothering with any...IMO they shouldnt have any tape on the sections just the woven in red bands.....
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I rip the tape off too, it's not needed.
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Agree with above. Remove tape as soon as I get a new pole. Extremes still tend to last 2 years so can’t see it makes much difference.
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The composite industry recognise that carbon fibre and polyurethane were made for each other. Standard polyurethane will seal carbon poles with no problem, you can use it as often as you like and as much as you like.
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Hi Chaps
Of course everyone is entitled to maintain and use their carbon fibre poles as they see fit, but I wanted to extend the following caution - :)
We would advise all Gardiner Pole users to not remove and leave off the PVC joint overlap tape from the two positions on the base of each section of the Gardiner poles.
Working without this in place will allow much faster internal carbon on carbon section wear and faster production of carbon dust. It will also invalidate your pole warranty with us.
We advise checking and replacing the tape if needed every 2-3 months on an SLX pole and every 2 months on an Xtreme pole.
To prolong the life of the joint overlap tape, prevent the build up of dirt in the overlap area and generally get the best life from the pole please see our guidance below:
Cleaning Schedule:
1. Keep the pole as clean as possible at all times. Wiping the pole hose after each use will reduce the amount of dirt entering the pole. A wipe with a cloth as you are coiling the hose away is sufficient.
2. Hose the pole down once a week or after working in gritty or sandy environments. To do this, either hose up from the base of the pole with all clamps open or undo clamp bolts until loose and slide sections apart to clean between the sections. Whilst sections are apart check the joint indicator and base tape - if damaged or missing then replace before re-assembling.
Servicing Schedule:
1. In addition to the above schedule we would recommend fully taking apart the pole every 2 months to clean and service. Undoing the clamps bolts until loose will allow the sections to slide apart.
2. Whilst apart, clean and dry all sections and check and replace, if needed, the joint-indicator tape and the wrap of tape at the base of each section.
3. Additionally, a spray of dry-film PTFE spray over the overlap area will improve the life of the pole. DO NOT USE OIL-BASED LUBRICANTS SUCH AS WD-40 or GT-85
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Hi Alex
we mainly use your poles but we do have a few ionics poles, their poles do have like a shinny hard film over the carbon, this seems to make the pole last longer and you do not get the black hands as we do from the SLX poles,is this not something you could add to all your poles ?
Cheers
Martin
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Hi Alex
we mainly use your poles but we do have a few ionics poles, their poles do have like a shinny hard film over the carbon, this seems to make the pole last longer and you do not get the black hands as we do from the SLX poles,is this not something you could add to all your poles ?
Cheers
Martin
Hi Martin
Clear coats can be applied to most tube surfaces in production - usually these would be some kind of Polyurethane lacquer or a shiny epoxy finish.
Why do we generally not use such finishes?
1. Such gloss surfaces are 'softer' and less abrasion resistant compared to a raw carbon fibre finish.
2. These layers do add thickness to each tube wall thickness – because of this it has a negative impact on the weight and rigidity of each tube section
3. We have worked hard to ensure that the outer layer on each of our sections has as little final epoxy material as possible to maximize longevity and performance.
Which poles do you have with the glossy finish – are they hybrid (fibre glass/carbon mix) or full carbon fibre poles? Are they on your everyday poles – if so how long does the gloss finish last?
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personally i wish there was an option to buy your poles alex WITHOUT the joint stop tape applied...it does nothing but chew up and make the pole sections hard to remove when flushing out and this then attracts more dirt and dust that sticks to the sticky tape residue thats left on the pole.
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Hello,
I am now retired so I am selling nothing.
A coating of polyurethane cannot affect the rigidity of a pole.
Not enough on the weight that you would notice.
Get one of your poles, rough it up lightly with a scouring pad to give it a key and give it a coat of polyurethane,
Do this to your poles regularly. it only takes minute and a day to dry it will keep your poles looking and feeling great.
Try it on one or and old complete pole to see what you think.
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personally i wish there was an option to buy your poles alex WITHOUT the joint stop tape applied...it does nothing but chew up and make the pole sections hard to remove when flushing out and this then attracts more dirt and dust that sticks to the sticky tape residue thats left on the pole.
Hi Dazmond
You can of course remove the tape before first use :)
However I can guarantee that using a pole without this fitted will accelerate abrasive wear and will shorten the life of the pole.
Usually all that is needed to keep the tape in good condition is to flush through the pole with water regularly.
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Hello,
I am now retired so I am selling nothing.
A coating of polyurethane cannot affect the rigidity of a pole.
Not enough on the weight that you would notice.
Get one of your poles, rough it up lightly with a scouring pad to give it a key and give it a coat of polyurethane,
Do this to your poles regularly. it only takes minute and a day to dry it will keep your poles looking and feeling great.
Try it on one or and old complete pole to see what you think.
Whilst polyurethane varnish will not 'reduce' the rigidity of carbon fibre as a substance, it will of course impact the performance of a pole compared to a pole built without it.
It is not possible to add a layer of material to the manufacturing process and not have some affect on weight, size and performance. If you factor in the weight and the fractional wall thickness of this on to each layer it will add some weight (affecting rigidity) and it will increase the outer diameter of each section slightly. Add this up over multiple sections and you will fractionally increase the OD of each section (even if just by 0.2mm), the OD of the pole (even if just by 1-2mm) and the overall weight (multiplies up as each section OD increases means the next section needs a slightly larger ID, meaning more material in the tube wall etc.).
I would agree, that for used poles, it can be good practice to apply a thin layer of lacquer as this will help longevity of the pole. It is best to only do this on a pole that has had some wear though as adding it to the section will reduce the tolerances between sections which could cause issues on brand new sections.
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Hi Alex
We have a 65 Swift plus pole fully carbon, and also have their Hydra plus pole these are both covered in the gloss finish, we mainly use two of your Ultimate pole for the higher work and got 6 SLX 30 that we use for everything else, lads love the poles just always moaning especially when raining that their hands get covered in the black stuff, they all dont like wearing gloves
Martin
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Hi Alex
We have a 65 Swift plus pole fully carbon, and also have their Hydra plus pole these are both covered in the gloss finish, we mainly use two of your Ultimate pole for the higher work and got 6 SLX 30 that we use for everything else, lads love the poles just always moaning especially when raining that their hands get covered in the black stuff, they all dont like wearing gloves
Martin
Hi Martin
The higher level poles such as 65ft+ do not tend to attract anywhere near the same amount of abrasive wear we find as a domestic 25-30ft poles. This is mainly down to the lack of repetitive extending/retracting of the same top few sections, hundreds of times a day . This will probably be the main reason they do not produce black dust, rather than the outer surface coating. I imagine that the Ultimate poles also do not produce much black carbon either due to the height they are used at.
It may be worth you trying one of your teams used SLX30 poles with a thin coat of lacquer to see if it improves it - it may not though as a lot of the black dust will be from the inside surfaces which the lacquer will not be on.
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Cheers Alex, will give it a go
Martin
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Alex,
It does not affect the rigidity, only the price from your manufacturer to you. What you have come out with above is a classic load of nonsense a manufacturer will give you because he knows that the aggravation will put the price to a level you would not be prepared to pay.
This black hand thing should not happen, you do not get it with fishing rods and they are made in the same way and the same raw materials.
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personally i wish there was an option to buy your poles alex WITHOUT the joint stop tape applied...it does nothing but chew up and make the pole sections hard to remove when flushing out and this then attracts more dirt and dust that sticks to the sticky tape residue thats left on the pole.
If you wedge something between the clamp body to open it fully the sections come apart easily😉
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I am now wondering if the people with black hand are the same people that don’t maintain the 3M tape on the poles , I maintain my tape and have never even had as much as a grey hand !
Just saying ;D :D ;D
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Alex,
It does not affect the rigidity, only the price from your manufacturer to you. What you have come out with above is a classic load of nonsense a manufacturer will give you because he knows that the aggravation will put the price to a level you would not be prepared to pay.
This black hand thing should not happen, you do not get it with fishing rods and they are made in the same way and the same raw materials.
Hi Nick
Carbon fishing poles cannot really be compared with telescoping window cleaning carbon poles in relation to production of carbon dust as they operate in such a different way. Fishing poles use push-joints and simply do not attract anywhere near the levels of abrasion or wear as an internally sliding telescopic pole.
Users of our Super-Lite modular poles do not get any problems with carbon dust – this is because they work in the same way as a fishing pole with non-telescoping sections. They also use external pole hose which is another reason that poles wear from the inside from the dirt that the pole hose pulls in.
This is why we recommend that pole hose is wiped down after each job as it greatly reduces the wear inside the sections on the telescopic pole.
We do not just make the poles that you see on our window-cleaning website – we also make poles with many different finishes for different markets and industries. We currently make a telescopic pole for one commercial client that does have a high-gloss finish. In our long-term testing this pole does not last or perform as well as those with our more usual matt carbon finish. They do look good to start with though and this is what the client wants 😊
A gloss finish is not more expensive for us to manufacture - It would be easier for our factory processes for us to make all poles with a gloss finish as we would not have to be so precise with the final layup of outer layers. Each section could then be made more quickly and with less care, have the final finish ground back down to correct tolerances and then coated with the gloss finish. The current process is more time consuming, needs more precision and results in a certain amount of rejected sections as there is ‘nowhere to hide’ with the finish.
Who knows though with the price of carbon fibre going up, it may be that we decide to go down this route to save some costs in the future and keep our prices competitive for the end user?
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I am now wondering if the people with black hand are the same people that don’t maintain the 3M tape on the poles , I maintain my tape and have never even had as much as a grey hand !
Just saying ;D :D ;D
Who knows ;D
I do have clients who meticulously flush out their telescopic pole after each days work, clean the overlaps weekly and renew the tape whenever needed. These clients never seems to get black hands or much noticeable pole wear - one of them has a 7 year old SLX that looks almost like new.
Thinking about it - just as well most are not like him ;D
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I’m a bit like him Alex ;D ;D
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And as you know, I have already bought my 3 brushes for this decade ;D
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Why is it that my old IONICS carbon pole has a very thick and shiny surface, after many years of usage only gives very little dust. Does the hard epoxies used have anything to do with the finished quality of the pole?