Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: P®oPole™ on July 03, 2006, 11:22:01 pm
-
Check out this nutter :o , not a very good angle to have your ladder, and it was footed by a crate pushed up against his car.
Also check out were he has extended the ladder to the last rung, if that roof wasnt there that ladder would surely snap under his weight as you can see he aint small.
-
Dam that looks very unsafe.
Is there anything you can buy, to be able to have those ladders at that angle?
Dave
-
wow, he looks real heavy its a wonder how the ladders never snaped
-
its crazy, I would want some serious money for that sort of lark, fair play to him he was doing a good job, its not very nice to see either. I could of gone and had a friendly word, but what can you do his only earning a living. how else would he reach the facia other than scaffold?
-
Dam that looks very unsafe.
Is there anything you can buy, to be able to have those ladders at that angle?
Dave
There is a product called stable legs, that stops the ladder slipping away from the wall, it also stops the bounce of the ladder,
if he had, had a set he could have also put them on the pitched roof, and this would have made the ladder sturdy, but to buy a product to have a ladder at that angle the answer is no, doesn't matter what you use you should never use a ladder at that angle.
-
he could have also put them on the pitched roof, . . errmmm - no, that would have put him on the point of a triangle which of course is a pivotal point, even more dangerous than that looks.
Although that looks pretty bad I have never heard of a ladder snapping although his weight would pose some serious discussion on that point. He is also only about 3 - 4 feet out of where the ladder should be placed and he is on a triple which has a load of strength, but if that ladder is extended to the last rung that is seriously stupid - should have at least a 3 rung overlap on each extension at that throw. I presume the car was the stopper to stop sliding and movement.
Not condoning and other than the overlap question, his weight and the crate its probably not as bad as it looks. ;D ;D ;D
I'm saying this 'cus I've been there and got the T shirt. If all the points I raise are addressed correctly its as safe as going up any ladder - still not sure about the crate bit tho?
More of a problem as I see it is the side of the house. The ladder angle for that is going to be far too steep to be safe but we all do it because if we dont their wont be any work to do.
I have been working at a height of 25 ft on windows for 3 of the last 4 weeks and the feet have been 6 feet out in a main road, all heavily coned and cordoned off, barriers and high vis tape everywhere - safe as houses except for idiot members of the public who at least a dozen times a day thought it was really funny to kick the ladder bottom and see the decorator hang on for his life - that aint funny!
Most ladder accidents happen because of the need for speed, leaning too far out, placing the feet on an unsafe surface and of course sloping ground. All decorators I know think before going up a ladder and follow all those points with safety in mind and the main point there is speed - when your life is at risk dont rush things.
Reality check guys - to do that house under H&S would add around £700 - 900 to the cost of the job for the hire of scaffold. If it was yours would you pay that extra to the 1 or 2 grand for the painting and decorating cost?
If tradesmen put more thought and less haste into the positioning and taken all the steps to ensure the ladder will not move you cannot do a lot more - other than follow a different profession.
ooops!
JohnL
-
I've done that too - and worse. I stopped doing stuff like that quite some years ago though. I bought a Teleplus Unger pole (non water fed) and cleaned awkward windows with that instead from the ground. Also, the few windows I couldn't clean safely just didn't get done.
In fairness to the guy in the picture, that set up looks a lot worse than it actually is. There is no way the ladder is going to slip. Also, the original poster seemed to be saying it was very lucky that the lower roof was where it was so as to provide support. That may have been part of his planning the job. I've had ladders at that sort of angle and they've never snapped - and that was without support from a lower roof. However, I do know a guy who had a ladder snap on him recently. It was a very old wooden one that other window cleaners had been telling him to change.
-
Yawn....another "idiot".
Can't see what's so horrifying if it's up against the car.
It isn't going to go anywhere.
There seems to a lot of anti-ladder pictures lately.
I think I might take picture of a water-fed-prat actually. ::)
With a hose across a busy pavement,
Leaving doorways slippery,
Waving it around near powerlines,
Or my favourite, creating ice in the winter and thinking that by putting salt on it they're helping the matter.
It's like gravel, you skid on your arse! >:(
-
Hi,
Sorry all the anti-ladder brigade but i think you have this one wrong.
The ladder is a triple and its evenly balanced, perhaps its me got it wrong, but any part of his ladder is not on the last rung, if you visualise the rung lengths (12 i think) then he looks to me to have quite alot of overlap on each section.
As for the car, well i'd rather be footed by a car than a person any day of the week, as long as the handbrake was on !
Not sure about resting on the pitched roof gutter though - with that weight it could take a chunk out !
Carl :)
-
I take the gutter comment back, i dont think there is a gutter there !
;D
-
Yawn....another "idiot".
Can't see what's so horrifying if it's up against the car.
It isn't going to go anywhere.
To be honest i was thinking the same he might be a big fellow but he aint gonna push the car out the way is he, I cant see the problem ???
-
Wish I could see the pics you guys are on about.
I can't see anything appart from a small red cross int the top left of where the pic should be?
And when I click on the jpeg number at the bottom of the pic & click open, It says "no preview available"
Is it just me???
Clear Vision
-
By todays standards the guy is working dangerously, were he caught by a Health & Safety officer he could well be in the do-do.
In the past I've decorated houses like this myself, all off a ladder, walking up to the apex with a 15" roller, laden with Santex on the end of a 6' pole, and yes, using my vehicle or anything else to prop the bottom of the ladder.
But you can't do that now, just like you can't send a 7 year old up a chimney to clean it, those times are past, get caught doing it now and you are in the brown stuff.
Unfortunately, those working safely and correctly don't stand out from the crowd, and it those that stand out that cause the authorities to issue more and more regs.
But as long as we are allowed to work off ladders you will always get idiots that don't follow safe practice, and it is those that draw the eye (just like that one guy in the one photo who is stood there looking at the decorator)
You can't over extend new ladders either, there is an extented lug that prevents you extending it past it's safe limit, also, the ladder's load rating will allow a great deal of weight when fully extended, you could have it horizontal and it wouldn't break, at least with proper trade ladders.
That ladder is wedged and is going nowhere, as dangerous as it looks it won't break either.
Of course it is wrong and in todays climate he shouldn't be doing it, cherry picker or scafolding I'm afraid, expensive? yup, but tough, thats the way it is now.
AS usual Squeaks has to have a pop at WFP (which hasn't been mentioned in this post until he brought the subject up).
You can snag a power line with an aluminium ladder as easily as you can with a pole, quite apart from which they are well insulated anyway, the chances of you electrocuting yourself with either ladder or pole is pretty remote.
Rock salt on the pavement?
In wintery weather, particularly when there is snow on the pavement the council will put the stuff down anyway, and you'd have to be a complete numpty to slip on the gravel...may not be that safe if you have put up a ladder on the stuff though ;)
My high visibility yellow hose lying across the pavement?
Pulease....open your eyes and look where you are walking, take some responsibilty for yourself for gods sake, and don't blame others when you fall over. Even old grannies who can barely lift up their feet manage to negociate the highly dangerous hazzard of a half inch obstacle in their path.
The warning sign you have to put out is also a hazzard for mums with pushchairs on narrow pavements.
Slippery doorways?
Give over, they are no more wet and slippery than they are on any day that it rains. now if you are getting a floor wet that is made out of marble...not many houses have them do they?
Shops maybe, but for myself at least I am in town up to 3 hours before the shops open, even in the darkest depths of winter the doorways are dry...unless its raining of course ;D
you're fishing for Mackeral and catching sprats Rog, dangerous ladder practice doesn't compare at all to the minor hazzards involved with WFP.
Ian
-
Well said Ian, I couldn’t have put it better my self.
Andy
-
AS others have said, it looks a lot worse than it is. I would feel safe enough doing that. That ladders going nowhere.
Not often I take issue with Ian but do take care when there are overhead cables.
They are supposed to be insulated, but I have a hole burned into the side of my angle adapter that proves that not all of them are. I was lucky to be waring thick rubber gloves at the time. That cable was no more than 18ft up and I was using my unger pole. I could well have been killed. Dai
-
you're fishing for Mackeral and catching sprats Rog, dangerous ladder practice doesn't compare at all to the minor hazzards involved with WFP.
Suit yourself, but I won't be agreeing.
Different sorts of dangers that's all.
I'm far less danger to the public though.
As for me digging at wfp, perhaps if people didn't put pointless pictures having a dig at ladders it wouldn't happen.
I'm not the only one who said "So what?"
It's not as if it's someone we know, even if it had been dangerous.(which it wasn't)
This forum's turning into a bunch of fairies. ::)
-
If that chap had a stand off at the top which i can't see he would have a lot better angle and it would have been easier for him to work.
Paul
-
I've said it before, but the worst ladder users are exterior building painters.
I've seen them doing some really dodgy stuff; stood on apex's of porches like a 'tight-rope-walker', painting the areas where their ladders cannot reach.
Big-heavy guys on B & Q ladders with no feet, painting the tops of the gable end of walls.
-
stood on apex's of porches like a 'tight-rope-walker'
. . whats that got to do with ladders? ;D ;D ;D
JohnL
-
Ian well said mate.
Squeaky and gents please refrain from giving out dangerous advice in future, this is clearley unsafe and its wrong for you to say its ok, fair enough the ladder is not going anywere as you say, but it could well do, not to mention its ilegal, W.A.H.R 2005.
-
stood on apex's of porches like a 'tight-rope-walker'
. . whats that got to do with ladders? ;D ;D ;D
JohnL
JohnL,
How do you think they get up to the apex in the first place? Jump? Float? Use a ladder maybe?
I think we're talking about 'working at height' in a dodgy manner.
-
This forum's turning into a bunch of fairies. ::)
Rog,
In any 'dangerous' occupation, the idea is to reduce the possibility of getting killed or injured. Obviously in many dangerous occupations, you can't reduce this chance to zero; but using some intelligence and common-sense; you can reduce the risk overall.
In the British army, a 'gung ho' attitude is strongly frowned upon, bayonets ALWAYS are a last resort, but they're still used when the occasion demands it; when all other possibilities are exhausted.
I can see a comparison between the army's way of managing risk and with the Working at Height Regulations.
All the 'rules' basically say is that working at height should be a last resort, you should use your intelligence and common sense to avoid it, but should there be no other method; then ladders are allowed; using a Ladder Stabilisation Device and tied off, or with some other similar device! (Rog, some 'feet' on your ladders may help.)
Anyway, Window cleaner's shouldn't have to risk their lives, 'Fairy' or not, and if you do risk yourself on a regular basis, just think what the effect a bad fall from a ladder would affect your life and family!
-
AS others have said, it looks a lot worse than it is. I would feel safe enough doing that. That ladders going nowhere.
Not often I take issue with Ian but do take care when there are overhead cables.
They are supposed to be insulated, but I have a hole burned into the side of my angle adapter that proves that not all of them are. I was lucky to be waring thick rubber gloves at the time. That cable was no more than 18ft up and I was using my unger pole. I could well have been killed. Dai
Dai,
Point taken, but the point I was really making was that; Aluminium pole - Aluminium ladder, both can come into contact with overhead cables, overhead cables are a risk to either ladders or poles, but a pretty low risk...even if you were nearly BBQ'd to a crispy frazzle :o
Ian
-
BT are also doing away with there carbon fiber poles for the same reason. and this is HSE making them do it.
-
BT are also doing away with there carbon fiber poles for the same reason. and this is HSE making them do it.
Er...what do BT use poles for?? I really hoe I'm not sounding dense here :-\
I know they have overhead cables mounted on poles, but I presume you don't mean that.
Ian
-
Er...what do BT use poles for?? I really hoe I'm not sounding dense here :-\
Only when you spell "hope" hoe......
-
Hi,
Sorry all the anti-ladder brigade but i think you have this one wrong.
The ladder is a triple and its evenly balanced, perhaps its me got it wrong, but any part of his ladder is not on the last rung, if you visualise the rung lengths (12 i think) then he looks to me to have quite alot of overlap on each section.
As for the car, well i'd rather be footed by a car than a person any day of the week, as long as the handbrake was on !
Not sure about resting on the pitched roof gutter though - with that weight it could take a chunk out !
Carl :)
Well I would leave it in gear too in case the handbrake cable failed.
-
Wish I could see the pics you guys are on about.
I can't see anything appart from a small red cross int the top left of where the pic should be?
And when I click on the jpeg number at the bottom of the pic & click open, It says "no preview available"
Is it just me???
Clear Vision
Just a guess but if you are using Internet Explorer do TOOLS > INTERNET OPTIONS, click the ADVANCED tab. Scroll down and put a tick mark in the SHOW PICTURES box (it's in the MULTIMEDIA section). You must click the APPLY button for this change to register. If that's not the problem then I don't know what else to say.
-
Hello,
I cant help but think that this is all relative to what each individual feels is 'safe' for them.
Personally i would be quite comfortable working with my ladder at that angle and 'footed' by a car, it really wouldnt be a problem for me - i use my own judgement to test the ladder before going up it, and if i feel its a bit dodgy, then i dont go up - simple as that.
However, i used to be a Pro decorator and i used to work in the construction industry so i experienced the 'full blast' of the Health and Safety dept !
My own, and everyone i have ever knowns opinion of the H&S is that they are just a complete bunch of idiots who have absolutely no practical sense whatsoever !
I was a decorator and on some jobs step ladders were eventually banned. ;D lol, not only for decorators but for all trades.
Try and imagine this : decorators, electricians, plasterers, air conditioning ducters/fitters, carpenters, networkers all working in one banking hall, there must have been 25/30 blokes on the job at one given time.
No step ladders allowed. ;D
Everyone had to supply scaffold, it was complete chaos !
Most of the work you needed steps for was just above head height, so you'd spend half an hour looking for you scaffold in the huge pile, then put it up to reach an extra couple of feet. Everyone was doing this so in the tight corners only one trade could work at a time.
The job went over by months. I heard that in the end, it was a nightmare having cost the constuction company a fortune in delay penalties.
The lads and even the site managers went through everything to try and work out why the H&S dept banned step ladders and it was always the same reason it boiled down to.
Insurance Claims.
There was a huge survey in the construction industry to find out how individuals were having accidents - falling from step ladders was right up at the top.
Fall off, claim an accident - Insurance has to cough up compensation. How do they solve this ? the only way the insurance people know how to - ' right, you can't use step ladders anymore !!'
Complete disaster.
It didnt last long, everyone soon got round to using ladders again, it just wasnt practical - either physically or financially.
It wouldn't surprise me one bit, if behind the Health & Safety was a government department backed and funded by a huge consortium of Insurance Companies.
Carl.
-
Well I would leave it in gear too in case the handbrake cable failed.
Because of course a ladder can push a car.... ;D
I go up to a window at that angle every month, but it's only an upstairs on an average semi.
It's because there's no access to the side of the house, so I do it from an adjacent alleyway.
The other day I put it as usual against the wall behind (or so I thought).
But when I got down I'd put it an inch from the wall.
Guess what? It hadn't moved that inch back to the wall at all.....and the ladder was pretty flat like that picture.
Takes a lot to get a ladder to slip.
-
oh no it doesn't Rog,
They can slip when you least expect it, you should never tempt fate or even give the impression that the ladder is as safe as houses when at an acute angle...it isn't...
Ian
-
To reduce the chance of contact with powerlines the featherlight poles I use now come with a height adjustable insulated sections.
But anyone got actual details of any electrical accidents when using poles for window cleaning ?
-
Well I would leave it in gear too in case the handbrake cable failed.
Because of course a ladder can push a car.... ;D
I go up to a window at that angle every month, but it's only an upstairs on an average semi.
It's because there's no access to the side of the house, so I do it from an adjacent alleyway.
The other day I put it as usual against the wall behind (or so I thought).
But when I got down I'd put it an inch from the wall.
Guess what? It hadn't moved that inch back to the wall at all.....and the ladder was pretty flat like that picture.
Takes a lot to get a ladder to slip.
Roger. I have had a ladder slip even when at a normal angle (1 in 4). It depends what it's standing on but sometimes it can be inconsistent. At least get yourself a long non water fed pole to put your hand tools on eh?
-
Jeff, Not one in the UK, in 9 years from when WFP first became available and only one in the USA in 20 odd years.
Andy
-
Ahh, thanks, USA have only two overhead wires horizontally and unearthed. Ours are insulated and the one your most likely to hit with a pole or ladder is the earth.
-
To reduce the chance of contact with powerlines the featherlight poles I use now come with a height adjustable insulated sections.
But anyone got actual details of any electrical accidents when using poles for window cleaning ?
Hi Jeff
No details, but I do know BT are in talks with HSE on the issue
of carbon poles
-
i would love to see the mark that the feet leave on the house with the amount of bounce he would have got from a set of triples at that angle!
-
oh no it doesn't Rog,
They can slip when you least expect it, you should never tempt fate or even give the impression that the ladder is as safe as houses when at an acute angle...it isn't...
Ian
I've had a ladder slip from under me at an approximately a 1 in 5 ratio; I was gaining access to a window above a sloping porch roof; but I thought I was safe because my ladder-feet were in good nick and I'd stamped them into grass.
Without warning they slipped back and luckily enough the porch roof slowed my descent to the ground a tadge.
My finger-tips were bleeding from sliding down the porch roof on my way to earth; but I can't remember doing it.
Luckily enough, apart from a few bruises and sore fingers, I was fine (I'm a Geordie you see).
The thing is, I could've had a 1 in 4 ratio by placing the top of my ladders above the window; but it was a hot day; I was feeling tired and I made a mistake.
-
To reduce the chance of contact with powerlines the featherlight poles I use now come with a height adjustable insulated sections.
But anyone got actual details of any electrical accidents when using poles for window cleaning ?
Never heard of any Jeff but there has been a few accidents involving fishermen and their roach poles touching cables!!