Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Chris Cottrell on September 16, 2019, 06:56:57 pm

Title: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on September 16, 2019, 06:56:57 pm
Guys n Girls your help is needed
Ive been using the above RO unit for several years with great results my water quality after the RO was around 15-20ppm and a 7ltr tank of resin was lasting me a month,

Now since Gardiners have stopped stocking the replacement filters for this I've struggled to find good filters its getting so bad that I cant get the ppm down to anything lower than 80pp, I even replaced the TLC350 membranes after 8 months as I thought they had had it but it was no different, I've changed the prefilters but still no good also noticed that the inlet pressure had dropped to 40psi so bought a new pump head from Pure Freedom which did speed up the production rate but still not the water quality. this had a detrimental effect on my motor because of it running so fast the motor got hot and cut out so that resulted in a new motor from pure freedom but still poor water quality, and today I've tried changing the base manifold on the RO because there was some hard water scaling on the inside and I thought it may have been letting air in to the system but no luck, still poor water quality

Im now changing resin every other day and its costing a fortune

I don't know what the heck is going on here I'm at a lose, any ideas why my water quality is so bad
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: P @ F on September 16, 2019, 07:38:58 pm
Sounds like a new RO is going to be the cheapest route
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on September 16, 2019, 08:11:11 pm
but I've replaced everything except for the actual housings, a new RO is not the problem im sure of it
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on September 16, 2019, 08:18:40 pm
ive fitted a new sediment filter, a new fibrodyne carbon filter, 2x TLC 350 Membranes, new Pentair PRF manifold, a new pump & new motor the only part not replaced is the housings that hold the filters and im sure they don't affect the water quality
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Smudger on September 16, 2019, 08:26:58 pm
Have you sterilized them lately ?

if I remember correctly before fitting now membranes your supposed to flush the chambers through with bleach
( it has been 7 years since I had the merlin )

Darran
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on September 16, 2019, 09:08:29 pm
Have you sterilized them lately ?

if I remember correctly before fitting now membranes your supposed to flush the chambers through with bleach
( it has been 7 years since I had the merlin )

Darran

Tell me more Darran I've never heard anyone mention anything about sterilisation of those housings
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: P @ F on September 16, 2019, 10:34:05 pm
Chuck em in a bucket of bleach
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Smudger on September 17, 2019, 02:19:40 pm
Have you an instruction manual ?

I'm positive that before putting in new membranes I had to put in a teaspoon of bleach in each chamber and run it then put in the membranes

Darran
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: PHILIP HARDY on September 17, 2019, 02:23:37 pm
You have either got a bad membrane or unpurified water is leaking by it possibly because its not fitted right, take it out and check all the seals and make sure its located properly.
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Smudger on September 17, 2019, 02:52:08 pm

NOTE: The system should be sanitized whenever a membrane elementor filter is replaced.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/821306/Ge-Merlin.html?page=20#manual

hope this helps

Darran
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Smudger on September 17, 2019, 02:54:58 pm
Chris - on another matter could you email me please

darran@odbodscleaning.co.uk


cheers
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on September 17, 2019, 06:00:00 pm

NOTE: The system should be sanitized whenever a membrane elementor filter is replaced.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/821306/Ge-Merlin.html?page=20#manual

hope this helps

Darran

I understand the need for sanitizer as I’ve never done that at all but this week I’ve fitted a new manifold and still bad water quality
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: AuRavelling79 on September 18, 2019, 05:15:42 am
I recently bought new improved membranes from Gaps Water and they are excellent. Coming out at 005/010 whereas previously it was 012/018.

I have a 10" sediment filter before the 18" carbon filter. Ppm in is high 200's and pressure about 55/65.
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Slacky on September 18, 2019, 07:23:35 am
Dodgy seal letting dirty water through?
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Alex Gardiner on September 18, 2019, 08:26:28 am

NOTE: The system should be sanitized whenever a membrane elementor filter is replaced.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/821306/Ge-Merlin.html?page=20#manual

hope this helps

Darran

I understand the need for sanitizer as I’ve never done that at all but this week I’ve fitted a new manifold and still bad water quality

The only thing I can think of is a damaged brine  seal or a damaged O ring seal on the end of one of your membranes.
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: AuRavelling79 on September 18, 2019, 09:42:05 am
What is a brine seal Alex?
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Spruce on September 18, 2019, 04:13:42 pm
What is a brine seal Alex?

Its the big seal at the one end of the membrane
Here's an example
https://www.wateranywhere.com/brine-seal-for-standard-1812-residential-membranes/
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on September 19, 2019, 06:35:34 pm

NOTE: The system should be sanitized whenever a membrane elementor filter is replaced.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/821306/Ge-Merlin.html?page=20#manual

hope this helps

Darran

I understand the need for sanitizer as I’ve never done that at all but this week I’ve fitted a new manifold and still bad water quality

The only thing I can think of is a damaged brine  seal or a damaged O ring seal on the end of one of your membranes.

Still perplexed I’ve checked the brine seals they look to be absolutely fine, it was suggested by someone that the pump may have blown open the filters if the pressure was too high, ive checked tonight to see what it’s like from tap only pressure (30psi) and water quality is even worse it’s coming out at 150ppm the filters don’t look like they’ve collapsed

Any other ideas guys this is doing my head in not to mention the cost in resin usage at the moment
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Dave Willis on September 19, 2019, 07:23:18 pm
Do they have a backflush valve on those things?
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: P @ F on September 19, 2019, 08:10:29 pm
How much water do you need per day ?
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: AuRavelling79 on September 19, 2019, 08:34:23 pm
How long since you've replaced the carbon  filter??
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on September 19, 2019, 09:49:40 pm
How much water do you need per day ?

4 vans with tanks ranging from 500- 800lt used  4-5 days a week so a fair bit

Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on September 19, 2019, 09:51:14 pm
How long since you've replaced the carbon  filter??

Last changed beginning of Aug
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Smudger on September 19, 2019, 10:43:55 pm
Personally, I think its time to move onto a 4040

the carbon filter on those is only good for 6000 litres - you need to be changing it every week or at least have another carbon in front of the ro unit

are all the seals and as importantly the housing free from ALL damage and nicks, I have to say at that TDS your leaking tap water into the system.  your welcome to pop over and set it up at mine to see if we can see a problem

Darran
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: AuRavelling79 on September 20, 2019, 08:45:14 am
Okay so your carbon filter is six weeks in. I change mine about that often and if I don't ppm goes up and production slows (and may shorten membrane life).

Further I am only feeding two vans and I would probably go for a higher capacity RO if I was feeding four.

I also have only water rates and no meter.
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Richard Groves on September 20, 2019, 10:34:53 am
Some times it's better just to say enough and cut your losses. As others have said it's time for a 4040. Your increased resin costs and lost time and expense would  have paid for it by now.
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Richard Groves on September 20, 2019, 11:41:49 am
The pentair or merlin was designed as a low cost compact on demand ro filter for domestic applications. I  started out with a merlin but ditched it within a year. It has a poor rejection rate and  wastes a lot of water. Its been adopted by window cleaners because of its plug and go simplicity and compact size but that's about the only positive  I can see.
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on September 21, 2019, 10:41:26 am
The pentair or merlin was designed as a low cost compact on demand ro filter for domestic applications. I  started out with a merlin but ditched it within a year. It has a poor rejection rate and  wastes a lot of water. Its been adopted by window cleaners because of its plug and go simplicity and compact size but that's about the only positive  I can see.

I have found it to be a great tool it produced water fast and could cope with filling 4 vans so was a win win for me, the only downside was this recent lack of water quality for which i'm stumped to find the cause of
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on September 22, 2019, 08:33:03 am
has anyone got any views or experience with the upgraded 750 membranes for the PRF RO, what pressure is ideal for these?
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: AuRavelling79 on September 22, 2019, 09:25:39 am
See my post from earlier on. I bought a set from Gaps Water and installed them 1st week in August.
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on September 22, 2019, 09:28:48 am
See my post from earlier on. I bought a set from Gaps Water and installed them 1st week in August.

Ahh thanks I did see that and I liked it too, must have a re read of these comments
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: AuRavelling79 on September 22, 2019, 09:30:32 am
Me again...

It's running right now.

Ppm in 231
Ppm out 005
Pressure 57psi
Carbon filter last changed with membranes.

From memory the old ones six/eight weeks in would be about 10ppm.
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: AuRavelling79 on September 25, 2019, 08:00:41 am
Any update Chris? Did you solve it?
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on September 25, 2019, 08:17:28 am
Not yet I’m going to order some of those 750 membranes and try those there can’t be anything  left to change after that it will essentially be a whole new system
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on October 04, 2019, 05:21:16 pm
Update

I’ve replaced the TLC350 membranes today for the upgraded 750’s and that’s brought the TDS  down to 28ppm before it goes into the resin canister

The old membranes that I installed in May seem ok but do appear to be open on the side not sure if this was the cause or not
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: AuRavelling79 on October 05, 2019, 10:53:58 am
Update

I’ve replaced the TLC350 membranes today for the upgraded 750’s and that’s brought the TDS  down to 28ppm before it goes into the resin canister

The old membranes that I installed in May seem ok but do appear to be open on the side not sure if this was the cause or not

100% the cause. They wouldn't work if split like that. Also 28ppm seems high to me. What's your input?
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on October 05, 2019, 11:01:27 am
Input TDS is around 500

Output has now settled down to 23ppm

I calculate that to be a 95% rejection rate
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: AuRavelling79 on October 05, 2019, 03:32:22 pm
Ah right - that's an exceptionally high input so that might explain it.
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: P @ F on October 06, 2019, 09:39:29 am
I take it those split membranes where new in when the whole issue started  ?
If so I would be  sending them right back , that’s manufacture defect surely ?
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on October 06, 2019, 01:12:29 pm
I take it those split membranes where new in when the whole issue started  ?
If so I would be  sending them right back , that’s manufacture defect surely ?

I am considering this
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on October 07, 2019, 12:28:37 pm
Well what a laugh I’ve just spoken to WCW in barry and I don’t think he could have been more unhelpful if they tried the first person I spoke to about the membranes cut me off the second person pretty much dismissed any idea that they could possibly be faulty and was very reluctant to get me a returns no, he did get a rtn for me but said sorry we don’t except any rtns after 14 days but I’m welcome to send them back to them anyway wouldn’t say what if anything they would do after that though

Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Smudger on October 07, 2019, 08:01:28 pm
When were they purchased ?

if online you have 28 days for a full refund regardless of fault


Darran
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Chris Cottrell on October 07, 2019, 08:33:38 pm
When were they purchased ?

if online you have 28 days for a full refund regardless of fault


Darran

They were purchased in May it’s taken me several attempts at trying to find the cause of poor water quality
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Smudger on October 07, 2019, 09:20:55 pm
Hmmm,

Difficult, as it’s a wearing item ( I know it’s split ) this may make it hard to get a refund unless you show premature failure - possibly something direct from pentair themselves ?


Darran
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Spruce on October 08, 2019, 08:19:21 am
Hmmm,

Difficult, as it’s a wearing item ( I know it’s split ) this may make it hard to get a refund unless you show premature failure - possibly something direct from pentair themselves ?


Darran

I'm sure that somewhere in the small print Pentair will note that the r/o is designed for domestic use. They will probably reject any claim as the r/o is being used for industrial/commercial applications.

Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Smudger on October 08, 2019, 10:30:31 am
Hmmm,

Difficult, as it’s a wearing item ( I know it’s split ) this may make it hard to get a refund unless you show premature failure - possibly something direct from pentair themselves ?


Darran

I'm sure that somewhere in the small print Pentair will note that the r/o is designed for domestic use. They will probably reject any claim as the r/o is being used for industrial/commercial applications.

Good point

Darran
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Ian will on June 09, 2021, 09:50:54 pm
What was the outcome in the end, did you get anywhere?
Title: Re: Pentair PRF RO system. WHAT the blazers is going on !!
Post by: Spruce on June 10, 2021, 04:12:55 pm
What was the outcome in the end, did you get anywhere?

Chris doesn't come on here very often. He's been on here once since he created this post in 2019.