Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Tom-01 on May 25, 2019, 11:06:40 am
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Hi guys
For those who employ, what are the pro's and cons?
What demographic of person is best suited? I'm thinking someone who needs the stability, who has a bit of responsibility, mortgage or rent to pay etc.
Do you pay a straight salary? Or a lower salary with targeted earnings, building in quality control related bonuses?
Do you have set start times and finish times each day? Scheduled breaks etc?
Thanks
Tom
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I’ve had two blokes work for me at the same time and nothing but hassle and letting me down, that’s after I had numerous blokes before but it’s hard to find a decent reliable hardworking and trusting bloke. I was paying £10 an hour doing 8 hour days so ok not huge amounts but definitely more than a factory job. I have now gone full circle and downsized and sold work and work alone again with very little stress. You might be lucky and find one of the few decent workers out there and be all good and reliable but I’ve learnt for me staying on my own is much better albeit a little boring but that’s what AirPods and podcasts are for.
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Pro
Earn more money and/or work less
Con
Ballache
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Pro's able to take on commercial work and other bigger jobs that one man would find too much to handle.
Pro's, having an employee can give you extra motivation if needed.
Con's, by the time you pay a decent wage which in my opinion is needed in order to get a decent employee, plus expenses there's not a lot of profit left on the labour alone.
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Ask yourself where your business wants to be in a few years.
If you can earn £300 a day cleaning windows on your own and that’s enough for you, stick to it.
If you want to build something that will bring in a wage in retirement, then start employing.
Be prepared to learn as you grow.
It’s very stressful.
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I've employed many people over the last 20 years. Unfortunately I can't facilitate you with a magic formula for how to make it work.
People say: don't employ friends and family. My old man and me have been partners for nearly 30 years (our first business was a video shop when I was 13 (glad I got out of that game)) and my best friend since I was 5; was my highest earner and is now my general manager, he's worked for the company longer than I have ( 21 years for him, 20 for me ).
I currently have 16 employees, ages 18 - 50 some married with kids, some still at home with mum, some still at home with mum when they started and now married with kids.
A planned and robust recruitment process helps. I've got pretty good at interviews which I used to detest. Our newest employee is a guy I knew at school, he got the job because in the interview he said: I'm sick of driving jobs, who piss you off as soon as there's any shortage of work and I see lads working for you year after year....
I pay minimum wage 37.5 hours per week. Every week, then a monthly performance bonus. I try to be as laid back and flexible as possible. I keep an eye on targets and timesheets, if someone is not pulling their weight it's discussed in our weekly meeting, where everyone is given a chance to voice their opinion.
I don't earn huge amounts of money (yet), I'll bet many of you walk away with more money in your pocket than I do at the end of the month. What I do have is a long term plan and the security of knowing that if there's something that happens I'm financially stable, the business is not reliant on me.
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I have only ever employed one person - my son -in law from 2011 until 2015 when we came to an agreement where he bought about 2K of work off of me and we went separately. We had and have an amicable relationship.
I paid him for 32 guaranteed hours per week at £10 per hour, let him use the old van from 2012 until he finished but he worked with me out of my van and his van was used for gutter vac gear and generator.
I also paid him bonuses of £100 per month for getting all the work done on schedule and a further quarterly bonus of an extra £100 if the quarter's work got completed on schedule.
He got paid holidays and had private use of the van.
If I was doing it now I would do similar but probably pay £12.50 per hour with slightly higher targets and bonuses.
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I have only ever employed one person - my son -in law from 2011 until 2015 when we came to an agreement where he bought about 2K of work off of me and we went separately. We had and have an amicable relationship.
I paid him for 32 guaranteed hours per week at £10 per hour, let him use the old van from 2012 until he finished but he worked with me out of my van and his van was used for gutter vac gear and generator.
I also paid him bonuses of £100 per month for getting all the work done on schedule and a further quarterly bonus of an extra £100 if the quarter's work got completed on schedule.
He got paid holidays and had private use of the van.
If I was doing it now I would do similar but probably pay £12.50 per hour with slightly higher targets and bonuses.
Tightwad.
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I've employed many people over the last 20 years. Unfortunately I can't facilitate you with a magic formula for how to make it work.
People say: don't employ friends and family. My old man and me have been partners for nearly 30 years (our first business was a video shop when I was 13 (glad I got out of that game)) and my best friend since I was 5; was my highest earner and is now my general manager, he's worked for the company longer than I have ( 21 years for him, 20 for me ).
I currently have 16 employees, ages 18 - 50 some married with kids, some still at home with mum, some still at home with mum when they started and now married with kids.
A planned and robust recruitment process helps. I've got pretty good at interviews which I used to detest. Our newest employee is a guy I knew at school, he got the job because in the interview he said: I'm sick of driving jobs, who piss you off as soon as there's any shortage of work and I see lads working for you year after year....
I pay minimum wage 37.5 hours per week. Every week, then a monthly performance bonus. I try to be as laid back and flexible as possible. I keep an eye on targets and timesheets, if someone is not pulling their weight it's discussed in our weekly meeting, where everyone is given a chance to voice their opinion.
I don't earn huge amounts of money (yet), I'll bet many of you walk away with more money in your pocket than I do at the end of the month. What I do have is a long term plan and the security of knowing that if there's something that happens I'm financially stable, the business is not reliant on me.
Really? ::)roll
You ve got 16 people working for you and you don't have as much profit left over as a one man band?I think you must be pulling our leg mate.......
Something does add up.....literally!
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I've employed many people over the last 20 years. Unfortunately I can't facilitate you with a magic formula for how to make it work.
People say: don't employ friends and family. My old man and me have been partners for nearly 30 years (our first business was a video shop when I was 13 (glad I got out of that game)) and my best friend since I was 5; was my highest earner and is now my general manager, he's worked for the company longer than I have ( 21 years for him, 20 for me ).
I currently have 16 employees, ages 18 - 50 some married with kids, some still at home with mum, some still at home with mum when they started and now married with kids.
A planned and robust recruitment process helps. I've got pretty good at interviews which I used to detest. Our newest employee is a guy I knew at school, he got the job because in the interview he said: I'm sick of driving jobs, who piss you off as soon as there's any shortage of work and I see lads working for you year after year....
I pay minimum wage 37.5 hours per week. Every week, then a monthly performance bonus. I try to be as laid back and flexible as possible. I keep an eye on targets and timesheets, if someone is not pulling their weight it's discussed in our weekly meeting, where everyone is given a chance to voice their opinion.
I don't earn huge amounts of money (yet), I'll bet many of you walk away with more money in your pocket than I do at the end of the month. What I do have is a long term plan and the security of knowing that if there's something that happens I'm financially stable, the business is not reliant on me.
Really? ::)roll
You ve got 16 people working for you and you don't have as much profit left over as a one man band?I think you must be pulling our leg mate.......
Something does add up.....literally!
That's because you listen to too much BS on here, think how much you would have left from your turnover if you had to pay an employee a decent wage plus costs, you would be lucky to have between £5k and £10k left over, remember there are one man bands on here turning over £100k a year.
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I've employed many people over the last 20 years. Unfortunately I can't facilitate you with a magic formula for how to make it work.
People say: don't employ friends and family. My old man and me have been partners for nearly 30 years (our first business was a video shop when I was 13 (glad I got out of that game)) and my best friend since I was 5; was my highest earner and is now my general manager, he's worked for the company longer than I have ( 21 years for him, 20 for me ).
I currently have 16 employees, ages 18 - 50 some married with kids, some still at home with mum, some still at home with mum when they started and now married with kids.
A planned and robust recruitment process helps. I've got pretty good at interviews which I used to detest. Our newest employee is a guy I knew at school, he got the job because in the interview he said: I'm sick of driving jobs, who piss you off as soon as there's any shortage of work and I see lads working for you year after year....
I pay minimum wage 37.5 hours per week. Every week, then a monthly performance bonus. I try to be as laid back and flexible as possible. I keep an eye on targets and timesheets, if someone is not pulling their weight it's discussed in our weekly meeting, where everyone is given a chance to voice their opinion.
I don't earn huge amounts of money (yet), I'll bet many of you walk away with more money in your pocket than I do at the end of the month. What I do have is a long term plan and the security of knowing that if there's something that happens I'm financially stable, the business is not reliant on me.
Really? ::)roll
You ve got 16 people working for you and you don't have as much profit left over as a one man band?I think you must be pulling our leg mate.......
Something does add up.....literally!
That's because you listen to too much BS on here, think how much you would have left from your turnover if you had to pay an employee a decent wage plus costs, you would be lucky to have between £5k and £10k left over, remember there are one man bands on here turning over £100k a year.
....16 x £5k.... sounds like more money than most 1 man bands 🤔
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Profit isn't always money in your pocket. Like I said, it's long term thinking. How many one man bands have mortgage payments effecting their bottom line? Also, I don't have 16 window cleaners, I have 16 employees. Some of them are a straight up overhead.
Maybe I do have more money than some but it isn't as much as you might think.
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Anyway, the money is irrelevant. The thread is about employing people.
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I've employed many people over the last 20 years. Unfortunately I can't facilitate you with a magic formula for how to make it work.
People say: don't employ friends and family. My old man and me have been partners for nearly 30 years (our first business was a video shop when I was 13 (glad I got out of that game)) and my best friend since I was 5; was my highest earner and is now my general manager, he's worked for the company longer than I have ( 21 years for him, 20 for me ).
I currently have 16 employees, ages 18 - 50 some married with kids, some still at home with mum, some still at home with mum when they started and now married with kids.
A planned and robust recruitment process helps. I've got pretty good at interviews which I used to detest. Our newest employee is a guy I knew at school, he got the job because in the interview he said: I'm sick of driving jobs, who piss you off as soon as there's any shortage of work and I see lads working for you year after year....
I pay minimum wage 37.5 hours per week. Every week, then a monthly performance bonus. I try to be as laid back and flexible as possible. I keep an eye on targets and timesheets, if someone is not pulling their weight it's discussed in our weekly meeting, where everyone is given a chance to voice their opinion.
I don't earn huge amounts of money (yet), I'll bet many of you walk away with more money in your pocket than I do at the end of the month. What I do have is a long term plan and the security of knowing that if there's something that happens I'm financially stable, the business is not reliant on me.
Really? ::)roll
You ve got 16 people working for you and you don't have as much profit left over as a one man band?I think you must be pulling our leg mate.......
Something does add up.....literally!
That's because you listen to too much BS on here, think how much you would have left from your turnover if you had to pay an employee a decent wage plus costs, you would be lucky to have between £5k and £10k left over, remember there are one man bands on here turning over £100k a year.
....16 x £5k.... sounds like more money than most 1 man bands 🤔
Its only £80k (I say only lol) when you think of what some on here claim to be earning on their own its not a lot, that said I suspect Soupy would be getting more than that but as he said not as much a some would think.
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Well said Boris ( Soupy ) - very relevant posts !
One of the best questions to ask - Am I the right sort of person to employ.
Some people are, many are not
employing brings different problems and challenges - no more so than sone of the days working on the glass, if your employing then you need to move away from the tools
like myself I was taken ill last year - and still can not to physical work - but with employees the biz chugs on
I built up the biz as I have no decent pension =, so when ready I can still have an income or sell off for something (hopefully) obscenely large amount of dosh ;D
as already mentioned - its not all about cash
Darran
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Sell said Boris ( Soupy ) - very relevant posts !
One of the best questions to ask - Am I the right sort of person to employ.
Some people are, many are not
employing brings different problems and challenges - no more so than sone of the days working on the glass, if your employing then you need to move away from the tools
like myself I was taken ill last year - and still can not to physical work - but with employees the biz chugs on
I built up the biz as I have no decent pension =, so when ready I can still have an income or sell off for something (hopefully) obscenely large amount of dosh ;D
as already mentioned - its not all about cash
Darran
This is the type of information that makes me what to keep pushing on and trying to grow/employ.
It has/does drive me nuts trying to find staff etc but you have to think long term
Its easy to think (at 37) I'll just stay on my own and just keep ticking along with no stress and just work forever.
BUT the though of being 57 in the same position, still working, no pension etc fills me with dread which is why it is absolutely imperative that I make it work.
Or at least have a plan, if it's not growing a window cleaning business then maybe property or something else entirely.
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I've recently taken my first employee on who is a family member by marriage and a former long distance lorry driver aged 39! So far so good he's taken to it like a duck to water and has already bought in some new business. The big test though is from tomorrow whilst I'm away on holiday. It'll be nice to have an income coming in whilst I'm not there.
Happy days hopefully!
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I've recently taken my first employee on who is a family member by marriage and a former long distance lorry driver aged 39! So far so good he's taken to it like a duck to water and has already bought in some new business. The big test though is from tomorrow whilst I'm away on holiday. It'll be nice to have an income coming in whilst I'm not there.
Happy days hopefully!
You ll have no round left after 6 months.......he ll take the lot....... ;D
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I'll take my chances
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I've tried in the past to employ, but I'm not the right person to do so, it drives me nuts!
I also wouldn't trust them to work alone and not to declare new work and they would eventually build their own work up whilst I pay them a wage. So nope, I don't wish for the hassle n stress of employing, nor the fact of building work up, only to pay the needed expense of employing someone.
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I've tried in the past to employ, but I'm not the right person to do so, it drives me nuts!
I also wouldn't trust them to work alone and not to declare new work and they would eventually build their own work up whilst I pay them a wage. So nope, I don't wish for the hassle n stress of employing, nor the fact of building work up, only to pay the needed expense of employing someone.
its this mistrust is why you can't employ - done correctly they don't get the chance to 'steal' work
Darran
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my advice would to be to keep the overhead factor as low as possible and have the person come with you in your van.
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my advice would to be to keep the overhead factor as low as possible and have the person come with you in your van.
which is fine while they learn the rounds etc... but 2 men never do double a single man on residential work, then what happens when you start the next person ?
Darran
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I find that when working alone I do in 6 hours what we do together in 4.
I also found that the two guys I had working with me in my van both ate with their mouths open.
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Working 2 to van is good on some days but on others that are less compact it eats into profit especially the more driving there is.
I think it depends on the team if one guy is slower than the other it's becomes a waste of time but if they are both in sync it can work well.
I've worked with guys that were better as a 2 man and guys that were better on their own.
So it depends
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I've tried in the past to employ, but I'm not the right person to do so, it drives me nuts!
I also wouldn't trust them to work alone and not to declare new work and they would eventually build their own work up whilst I pay them a wage. So nope, I don't wish for the hassle n stress of employing, nor the fact of building work up, only to pay the needed expense of employing someone.
its this mistrust is why you can't employ - done correctly they don't get the chance to 'steal' work
Darran
Darran, what processes do you have in place to avoid the mistrust
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I've tried in the past to employ, but I'm not the right person to do so, it drives me nuts!
I also wouldn't trust them to work alone and not to declare new work and they would eventually build their own work up whilst I pay them a wage. So nope, I don't wish for the hassle n stress of employing, nor the fact of building work up, only to pay the needed expense of employing someone.
its this mistrust is why you can't employ - done correctly they don't get the chance to 'steal' work
Darran
Darran, what processes do you have in place to avoid the mistrust
hmmmmm...
don't really mistrust any of the guys but we work the following ways..
vans and equipment are parked at unit - not taken home
vans tracked and work time set - so if someone comes back with a slow day we can look at the route
no-one has a 'round' they do all the rounds we typically have 3 'rounds' of any given day - 2 single man and a 2 man day - so the guys always have different houses to clean - never the same ones month in month out
bonus for bringing in new work
we are nice bosses that pay pretty good money ;D
Darran
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Picture it build it up to the point you are stacked out with work with hardly any gaps,you have 1-2 good workers but then all of a sudden they decide it ain’t for them.
This game a hell of a lot of people use it as a stop gap job unless it’s there business because keeping it simple allows you the flexibility to work and do what work when you choose,different ball game employing overnight you must put the hours in you must work in the rain you must generate enough money per month.
I’ve done it before and it’s a different job entirely,remember no one works or sees you’re business like you do it’s just a job to employees those that don’t see that are either lying or kidding themselves.
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A lot of the hot water haters I reckon employ why would you want the extra expense if you’re not using it day in day out I wouldn’t,the more I think about it the costs in my head keep going up and up lol.
Double you’re earnings after every expense you’ll still be lucky to be making money but at least it’ll give you bragging rights down the pub saying you employ,like I say no one treats you’re car like there own if you have very good work you don’t want to lose I would tread careful letting Jeremy kyles extras loose on it 😂
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If you cannot build a business by employing then the problem is you are a lousy businessman,
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A lot of the hot water haters I reckon employ why would you want the extra expense if you’re not using it day in day out I wouldn’t,the more I think about it the costs in my head keep going up and up lol.
Double you’re earnings after every expense you’ll still be lucky to be making money but at least it’ll give you bragging rights down the pub saying you employ,like I say no one treats you’re car like there own if you have very good work you don’t want to lose I would tread careful letting Jeremy kyles extras loose on it 😂
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1559122039_th0SSL88VR.jpg)
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It all depends on what a particular 1 man band is earning,if you are earning 25-30k as a 1 man band then the need to push on or employ would seem a better idea.
If you’re at VAT limit or there abouts what have you got to earn when employing to end up with a similar amount in you’re pocket still,it’s a lot more scrubbing of windows than some may think.
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I don't scrub 'em anymore ;D
Darran
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It will be for me again but not at the moment I want a hassle free existence in the not to distant future,anyone who says employing is not hassle is pullong the wool or trying to.
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Our latest did one day and gave his notice! ;D
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Our latest did one day and gave his notice! ;D
how long had he been working for you?
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Our latest did one day and gave his notice! ;D
how long had he been working for you?
One day?
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Our latest did one day and gave his notice! ;D
how long had he been working for you?
😂😂😂
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It's hard in this business because when you employ you need to generate extra work fast. Problem with that comes a lot of Messer's, non payers etc. Then there the learning curve and getting up to speed of the employee which can take months. Then there's the little things that p you off...not cleaning sills, leaving gates open, walking across neighbours garden, not returning pump off, forgetting to post notes, the list goes on. Then there's the weather which you must crack on no matter what. Paying them for holidays is quite sickening when no money is coming in. There's the extra admin of organising sheets, texting customers, dealing with complaints. All the extra b******s with payrol, time sheets, pension, extra costs. Wasting fuel, damaging van or equipment, buying extra equipment. Not really having a day off because you are wondering what employee is getting up to out in your van, what's he going to do today to cost you money. That's before they are ringing in sick. Oh and after a few months of you putting up with all that and training them up etc just when you think you might start to turn a profit they bugger off leaving you with too much work or having to find someone else and go through it all again.
I believe having multiple employees and office staff etc would make all the above much easier but when you are starting out into it wow it's a lot of extra hassle and I can see why a lot who have tried employing just decide to stay solo. There becomes a point in life where extra money just isn't worth extra hassle and losing sleep over.
That said I've just set on a new guy lol because I feel like I give up on the idea because it's hard then I will have quit and I hate the thought of quitting more than i hate the struggle of growth.
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It's hard in this business because when you employ you need to generate extra work fast. Problem with that comes a lot of Messer's, non payers etc. Then there the learning curve and getting up to speed of the employee which can take months. Then there's the little things that p you off...not cleaning sills, leaving gates open, walking across neighbours garden, not returning pump off, forgetting to post notes, the list goes on. Then there's the weather which you must crack on no matter what. Paying them for holidays is quite sickening when no money is coming in. There's the extra admin of organising sheets, texting customers, dealing with complaints. All the extra b******s with payrol, time sheets, pension, extra costs. Wasting fuel, damaging van or equipment, buying extra equipment. Not really having a day off because you are wondering what employee is getting up to out in your van, what's he going to do today to cost you money. That's before they are ringing in sick. Oh and after a few months of you putting up with all that and training them up etc just when you think you might start to turn a profit they bugger off leaving you with too much work or having to find someone else and go through it all again.
I believe having multiple employees and office staff etc would make all the above much easier but when you are starting out into it wow it's a lot of extra hassle and I can see why a lot who have tried employing just decide to stay solo. There becomes a point in life where extra money just isn't worth extra hassle and losing sleep over.
That said I've just set on a new guy lol because I feel like I give up on the idea because it's hard then I will have quit and I hate the thought of quitting more than i hate the struggle of growth.
yep my experience too mate...ive had around 80 lads working with me in the past in my trad days,albeit on a casual basis(cash in hand).i hated it...truly.......i much prefer working by myself...
also with WFP you can earn a lot more money than ladder work so no need to employ to make a half decent living.......
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Good grief 80 ? - mind you if your offering cash in hand it’s not really employing
Good points in that getting the first one up and running is a big learning curve but really if you’ve trained them well most of the above doesn’t happen very often - and if you really are constantly worrying ..about that then employing is not for you.
Darran
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Good grief 80 ? - mind you if your offering cash in hand it’s not really employing
Good points in that getting the first one up and running is a big learning curve but really if you’ve trained them well most of the above doesn’t happen very often - and if you really are constantly worrying ..about that then employing is not for you.
Darran
yes mate........over a 17 year period when on the ladders(i spent 17 years trad before switching to WFP 9 years ago).....
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Good grief 80 ? - mind you if your offering cash in hand it’s not really employing
Good points in that getting the first one up and running is a big learning curve but really if you’ve trained them well most of the above doesn’t happen very often - and if you really are constantly worrying ..about that then employing is not for you.
Darran
yes mate........over a 17 year period when on the ladders(i spent 17 years trad before switching to WFP 9 years ago).....
Took you a while to figure out employing wasn't for you then :D
Why the hell did you employ 80 lol did you not think after 20 or so maybe something wasn't right haha
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Good grief 80 ? - mind you if your offering cash in hand it’s not really employing
Good points in that getting the first one up and running is a big learning curve but really if you’ve trained them well most of the above doesn’t happen very often - and if you really are constantly worrying ..about that then employing is not for you.
Darran
yes mate........over a 17 year period when on the ladders(i spent 17 years trad before switching to WFP 9 years ago).....
Took you a while to figure out employing wasn't for you then :D
Why the hell did you employ 80 lol did you not think after 20 or so maybe something wasn't right haha
some lasted only a few hours,others 3 days!haha...others were friends who had fallen on hard times,problem was if they were good friends we would end up in the pub at lunchtime sometimes then we never went back to work,some of them are dead now....... :(
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Profit isn't always money in your pocket. Like I said, it's long term thinking. How many one man bands have mortgage payments effecting their bottom line? Also, I don't have 16 window cleaners, I have 16 employees. Some of them are a straight up overhead.
Maybe I do have more money than some but it isn't as much as you might think.
Soupy oh you changed your name!. A good statement to put it in perspective. Because once you pay expenses and VAT. Yes it's not what people think it is the other employees you have which are overheads though I'm assuming they're doing admin or something like that which makes them just an expense however beneficial to the business?
But if your window cleaner employees are making about £100 profit after VAT and expenses per van thats still good.
But I totally understand it's a big operation and some one man bands could chill out work when they like 4 days a week stay just under vat take a whole month off make better profit only and only manage themselves.
But like you say it's about the long-term and how the business can function trickling over even without you not just about the money.