Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Suffolkcleaners on February 27, 2019, 09:38:48 pm
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Hi Guys
I have been a sole trader for years and have an opportunity to take a lad on who is really reliable. No previous experience with our line of work but I would train him up etc and possibly even provide a van and equipment for him. A few questions I have...
1..... How exactly do I go about doing it?
2.... The tax side of things stresses me out-is there a way where they sort there own tax out and my company name is not used?
3.... I have more than enough work for one person but not enough for two so I could get him to canvass to build the round up until he has enough to go full time. Would this be a good idea?
4.... Would paying a hourly wage or percentage be the best way? I'm thinking percentage to give them more incentive.
5.... What contract/peace of mind could I have to make sure it doesn't go tits up in terms of him turning against me and trying to nick work down the road etc(I'm over worrying here but just curious)
Basically what is the least most complicated way to get someone on board on a part time basis(Ad hoc) to start with and then with the view of building the work up so he can have more.
Also is it actually worth it? I'm assuming at first I would take a loss for a while if I provided van etc. I wouldn't want to make a mistake and then end up being worse off than I am now.
It's not entirely financial it would just be nice to have someone on board who I know can cover holidays and if I'm ill etc. Also now With a baby(like this week up at the hospital) I haven't been able to cover all my work.
Any advice would be hugely appreciated. My main worries are the Tax side of things and all the bits I need to do to do it above board. COuldn't they just be self employed? Is there anyway to avoid the actual employed route? As this way I wouldn't have to worry about there tax or holiday/sickness pay etc.
Or am I living in a fairytale world? Sorry for so many questions but I wouldn't know where to start.
Thank you again in advance :-)
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0 hours? They probably won’t stick around though.
If it’s long term, give them a proper contract.
Tax is easy, ask your accountant to do PAYE each month. Don’t forget to offer a pension. And get employers liability.
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Can’t they go self employed and I just provide them the work and they take a percentage? This lad is aware the work is only Ad hoc to start with and also knows that the round would have to be built up before I could offer more work.
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Hi Guys
I have been a sole trader for years and have an opportunity to take a lad on who is really reliable. No previous experience with our line of work but I would train him up etc and possibly even provide a van and equipment for him. A few questions I have...
1..... How exactly do I go about doing it?
Take him on a trial period - say 6 months where either party can cancel if it’s not working out then move on from there
2.... The tax side of things stresses me out-is there a way where they sort there own tax out and my company name is not used?
Initially take him on as self employed for the period above - he can invoice you each week - it’s then up to him if he fills out his tax return
3.... I have more than enough work for one person but not enough for two so I could get him to canvass to build the round up until he has enough to go full time. Would this be a good idea?
BAD! - your business YOU get the work - it’s a tough time and you will have to work hard
4.... Would paying a hourly wage or percentage be the best way? I'm thinking percentage to give them more incentive.
Up to you, but hourly rate is the way forward after the trial period
5.... What contract/peace of mind could I have to make sure it doesn't go tits up in terms of him turning against me and trying to nick work down the road etc(I'm over worrying here but just curious)
Everyone is entitled to an employment contract go to ACAS for examples
Basically what is the least most complicated way to get someone on board on a part time basis(Ad hoc) to start with and then with the view of building the work up so he can have more.
Zero hours contract but if the guy needs a full time wage/job then he won’t go for it, if you can’t generate more/enough work over 3 months from his initial start - forget it
Also is it actually worth it? I'm assuming at first I would take a loss for a while if I provided van etc. I wouldn't want to make a mistake and then end up being worse off than I am now.
No van - 6 months training then work together for at least another 6 - then and only then get van 2
It's not entirely financial it would just be nice to have someone on board who I know can cover holidays and if I'm ill etc. Also now With a baby(like this week up at the hospital) I haven't been able to cover all my work.
For me it was always a plan to have staff - so that was my aim - been extremely ill now for 13 months - totally unable to work - yet my biz turns over more and grows bigger each month
Any advice would be hugely appreciated. My main worries are the Tax side of things and all the bits I need to do to do it above board. COuldn't they just be self employed? Is there anyway to avoid the actual employed route? As this way I wouldn't have to worry about there tax or holiday/sickness pay etc.
Or am I living in a fairytale world? Sorry for so many questions but I wouldn't know where to start.
Thank you again in advance :-)
Staff is a big step, and there are many here say it does not work, tbh that’s more to do with themselves - being self employed, biz owner is a selfish thing on many levels, from no one can clean as good as me, to don’t fancy working today through to employing friends and family and not setting out ground rules.
IF you take someone on then be professional, proper start times, proper training and guidance don’t take everything personally most of all when they f**k - bite your tongue, count to ten and re train and talk to them getting into a hissy fit will not help you or them
Darran
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Wow. Thank you Darren for such a detailed response. It’s giving me a lot of food for thought. My initial hunch is it’s prob not for me taking someone on. I’m quite a stressy person. It’s just a shame as this lad seems willing.
Will certainly have a think. Cheers again 👍
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Ps sorry to hear your health isn’t too good Darren and good for you for making the business week still 😀
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*work
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No worries - I’m through the worst and mentally in s good place - we are back to leafleting and getting 4 or more enquires a day - best response we’ve had from leaflets 👍
If you can make the step - then go for it
Darran
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Good to hear you’re through the worse Darran. Thanks for tips. With regards to the 6 month trial period and then being self employed is this something (I’m assuming) I have to let my accountant know etc and inform HMRC? It’s this side of things that stresses me out.
Also if they are prepared to canvass(paid canvassing I mean) couldn’t this be a way to build it up?
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I also read somewhere that even if you took them on as self employed it can all go tits up in terms of HMRC deeming it that they are actually classed as employed (unless you prove otherwise etc etc)
It just seems such a minefield and not sure if it seems worth it. There just doesn’t seem an easy way to get this lad on board. I have a lot of respect for you managing to make that step though.
Moron doesn’t help I’m a stressy person so maybe it’s not for me Lol
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Sorry (predicted text not moron) meant it also doesn’t help
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Well they are either employed or self employed, definition can be found on .gov site.
If you are wanting to actually build a business then you want an employee not a subby.
Maybe you are just worrying too much, give them a 3 month temporary contract with the promise of a permanent one if they complete the 3 month probation.
Give it your best shot for 3 months and it either works out or it doesn't.
I first started employing a year ago, part timers....had about 4-5 come and go for various reasons. Some good and some bad experiences but it won't stop me employing because it's what I want to do so I will persevere.
I'm also looking for a full timer soon but before intake someone on I will fill the round to bursting point first....
I also wouldn't p about working as a 2 man for too long., Get em in for a month or two, then give them the keys and let them loose, you wanna know sooner rather than later if they can cope put on there own. No point wasting a year to find that out.
A good saying is be slow to hire and fast to fire.
So basically take your time picking a candidate, get them in give a em a couple of months if it's not working try someone else. You'll know with weeks if they are going to be someone you want in your business.
I let a guy go after just 3 days lol, it just wasn't going to work..and I made that mistake by being too quick to hire the first one that came along...I learned from that so get stuck in and learn some lessons and stop being scared, life is about taking (calculated) risks and making mistakes..
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They can’t be self employed if they’re using your tools, working to your hours and you are responsible for the work. Be careful.
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So how do I ensure they are self employed oooooog? Make them pay for the equipment themselves so it’s classed as them buying it? Also sure they can work there own hours as long as the work is done.
Also in this probation period of say 3 months I understand nothing would have to be said? As you have 3 months to declare when starting up? Is that right? As long as it’s under the 3 months just to trial them out?
Also if I can get through the loop holes and get them self employed does this mean they are entirely responsible for everything and on there tax forms it would just go down as self employment? Do they put on there returns the percentage they pay me? Or Is that me that does that?
So is it better for hourly or percentage to fall within the self employed category? Anything else I need to know?
Sorry for so many questions.
Thanks
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So how do I ensure they are self employed oooooog? Make them pay for the equipment themselves so it’s classed as them buying it? Also sure they can work there own hours as long as the work is done.
Also in this probation period of say 3 months I understand nothing would have to be said? As you have 3 months to declare when starting up? Is that right? As long as it’s under the 3 months just to trial them out?
Also if I can get through the loop holes and get them self employed does this mean they are entirely responsible for everything and on there tax forms it would just go down as self employment? Do they put on there returns the percentage they pay me? Or Is that me that does that?
So is it better for hourly or percentage to fall within the self employed category? Anything else I need to know?
Sorry for so many questions.
Thanks
Zero hours contract is the safest as you are in effect not contracted to each ither between "assignments"
With a permanent contract and a probabtionary period you can get rid of them at any time, before 2 years they cannot claim unfair dismissal however you still have to follow a disciplinary and grievance procedure.
Note - contracts are a complicated issue, you need to speak to ACAS or a company who specialises in employment law
Having jumped straight into full time contracts before i personally would look to either start with zero hours or if not the a Temporary contract which has a clear end date so worse case scenario if you want to get rid and you think they are going to kick up a fuss you are not stuck with them for too long.
Ok if you are an extablished employer and confident and experienced ideally staff want full time permanent contracts but in your case a zero hours or temporary one would give you more piece of mind as you are essentially testing the waters.
I had a guy on zero hours wanting sick pay after only working with me for a month then he was off for a month! luckily he hadnt done enough hours to qualify.
You have to be carefull, which is why i say speak to ACAS because even on a zero hours contract they still have statutory rights to sick pay if they work over a certain amount of hours.
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So if I went for the zero hours contract could they still be self employed?
Isn’t there a way to just make them self employed and THEY sort out tax. THEY sort out everything but you just provide them with work. They take there share and I take mine? Could a contract or letter be drawn up to this effect?
TBH if I have to go down the route of employing them or worry about statutory sick pay and all that I will very likely not bother. It’s just too stressful!
They don’t make it easy for you to grow do they? Just wish there was a way to take this lad on without all this stress. Obviously a lot do and pay cash in hand but that’s no way for me. I need to sleep at night.
It just doesn’t seem like it might be worth it
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https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/selfemployed-contractor
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Thank you for that ooooog. I just don’t think this is the route for me. What about setting up a franchise? Are the rules different there?
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So if I went for the zero hours contract could they still be self employed?
Isn’t there a way to just make them self employed and THEY sort out tax. THEY sort out everything but you just provide them with work. They take there share and I take mine? Could a contract or letter be drawn up to this effect?
TBH if I have to go down the route of employing them or worry about statutory sick pay and all that I will very likely not bother. It’s just too stressful!
They don’t make it easy for you to grow do they? Just wish there was a way to take this lad on without all this stress. Obviously a lot do and pay cash in hand but that’s no way for me. I need to sleep at night.
It just doesn’t seem like it might be worth it
No mate, you need to understand the difference between employed and self employed. Just do some googling or better yet go on the ACAS website...it has all the info.
Yes you can have self employed guys doing work for you...they are contractors in effect...but if you are telling them when and what to do it's likely they will fall under the definition on employed by default. Which again is why you need to know the difference
No, it's a nightmare mate, join the club you get to a point where you need to grow (I'm in the same boat) and everything is stacked against you. But there no easy way around it, of course you can use self employed guys or you can franchise but you need to make sure they are actually self employed and not "disguised" employees which is what a lot of window cleaners are trying to do when they talk about using self employed guys.
It's a bit like the VAT threshold, you have to decide whether it's worth it in the long term as in the short term it's going to be a backwards step in income until you get them up to speed and get the extra work. And then just when you start making a profit out of it they find another job or go on the sick leaving you with a tonne of work you can't cover lol ...I imagine the first one to be the hardest from what I've heard it's gets easier after one or two guys as you have cover and procedures in place etc.
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Blimey it does seem a minefield. I’m not entirely sure it’s worth it you know with just one person on board. Say you had to go to the employers route through defalult and then you have employers liability all the sick pay holidays etc etc. You say give them 50/60/70 % and then you take your share. Just seems an awful lot of stress and hassle just to take on one guy.
I get the logic that if you want to grow and grow you have to go through the early stages and stresses BUT I only want to take this one guy on for a bit of extra help and also a bit of company. Does get solitary out there alone all the time. But hey looks as though that’s something that I will have to accept. Done it enough years now.
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Try it for a year and see how you find it?
It’s not super complicated.
Not sure two guys in one van is ideal productively, but if it’s more about company then who cares? Do what’s right for you.
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Its no more a minefield than working for yourself, you employ them, pay them an hourly rate minus a percentage to allow for holiday pay, change your insurance to allow for employees, the only real difference in tax will be employer NI and the workplace pension which aren't hard to work out and allow for, if your plan is to grow beyond the VAT threshold and your mainly domestic then also make plans for it now.
In my opinion good reliable employees need to be paid well so if you expect massive returns on employee labour you may be in for a shock.
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you do seem a little obsessed with the person being self employed - you really have nothing to fear employing whether it be 1 or more staff. - franchise is IMO more complicated and the person needs cash to by the franchise and or equipment
we aim for PAYE staff to cost around 25 to 30% of their work turnover so for example you pay £10 ( a bit more with NI, pension etc ) then the turnover of work from them needs to be £47 per hour ( taking into account holidays )
I don't agree with putting them out quickly - not man number 1 - you want this guy to know all the ins/outs proper techniques - how to save time on a job - have the best quality then pass that down to man number 2
there after you can start trimming the training
Darran
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Thank you for the comments guys. As usual it’s fantastic to get advice on here. Thank you. A lot to think about.......
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If you are thinking of employing purely for the sake of helping a friend out when you don't really have the desire to grow your business then you need to ask yourself why are you doing it if not to make a profit and grow. Employing someone on PAYE isn't as difficult as it seems, so is doing their wages, tax, NI contributions, sick pay, holiday pay. Make sure you have employers liability insurance if you do. It's a learning curve but you soon pick it up when you employ someone. It has it's good points and bad points.
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If you are paying him when he’s on holiday he is also working when you are off too therefore you should still be making money out of that,I look at it as you’ll be doing half the work and when yo and running should be making more money regardless of the overheads.
You just need a biggish float to allow you through the first year so you don’t have to worry about at least 2/3rds of his wages in the first year,the key is to pay more than he’ll get doing anything else similar work wise.
It works well if you find the right person I would have them with me for the first year that’s what I did when traditional only but I didn’t pay enough if I’m honest although saying that the way there life’s were they would have gone on to do other things anyway due to there private lives being run by their partners.
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The hardest thing is getting them to reach your gross hourly target between £38 To £45 per hour .
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The hardest thing is getting them to reach your gross hourly target between £38 To £45 per hour .
All about pricing the work high enough and keeping it condensed,