Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Simon Trapani on October 12, 2018, 10:45:27 am
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Although I'm wfp we use 3.5mt two section ladders for occasional flat roof access. We have one on each van. I have a customer who works in health & safety telling me although I don't need to change my ladders, I do need a stabiliser bar. I don't want to tell him his job but I can't see that I do. I employ one person and if we are working together that day we foot the ladder where necessary. We don't take chances. I've looked on the health & safety website but can't seem to get to the bottom of this.
The best I can get is on the Midland Ladder site: https://www.midlandladders.com/standards-explained-i-7 and even then it says: 'Extension ladders over 3.0m when closed must have stabilisers or a wider base to increase lateral stability'. But does this apply to existing ladders still in good condition? Because it also says: 'existing ladders won't need to be replaced straight away if in good condition.'
A stabiliser bar would be totally impractical in a lot of situations. I'd rather just dump those few jobs where a ladder is needed.
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This:
But does this apply to existing ladders still in good condition? Because it also says: 'existing ladders won't need to be replaced straight away if in good condition.'
And this:
A stabiliser bar would be totally impractical in a lot of situations. I'd rather just dump those few jobs where a ladder is needed.
Tell your customer this. If he doesn't agree ask him why and for him to provide official back up.
Then simply ask him if he still wants you to use your existing ladder in the existing way (after risk assessment and footed) on his property or not? If not then say you won't be cleaning certain windows for him anymore. If that is not acceptable to him, agree to differ and say goodbye.
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Existing ladder is ok to use as it currently stands but as and when you replace them they will have to conform to the regs - I take it you or your employee have a ladder inspection cert and keep a ladder log?
Darran
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That’s the way I understood it Darren with regards to our existing ladders. Customer seems to think I need a stabiliser now.
I must admit I don’t have a ladder certificate or keep a log. They are both relatively new (one set under a year old) & I just make a visual inspection. I did 18 years on a ladder & my employee about ten so we’re not novices. Surely common sense prevails? Just seems like more h&s myth & scaremainering. They’re commercial ladders, feet, rungs & styles all in great condition. We don’t use on decking, certain patios, styles on opposing surfaces etc etc.
I can keep a log I suppose just to ‘tick the box’ so to speak. I know you employ a few people Darren so is that what you do?
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I took the course so I have a cert and all ladders are inspected and signed off six monthly any damage between these has to be reported - all ladders are also industrial spec not domestic ( usually domestic ladders have red feet ) as I employ I have to ensure and show a safety record in the event of an accident - employees also took a ladder safety course - that’s me covered so should they do something stooopid I can I took the correct measures - thankfully ladder use is a rare occurrence!
Darran
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Although I'm wfp we use 3.5mt two section ladders for occasional flat roof access. We have one on each van. I have a customer who works in health & safety telling me although I don't need to change my ladders, I do need a stabiliser bar. I don't want to tell him his job but I can't see that I do. I employ one person and if we are working together that day we foot the ladder where necessary. We don't take chances. I've looked on the health & safety website but can't seem to get to the bottom of this.
The best I can get is on the Midland Ladder site: https://www.midlandladders.com/standards-explained-i-7 and even then it says: 'Extension ladders over 3.0m when closed must have stabilisers or a wider base to increase lateral stability'. But does this apply to existing ladders still in good condition? Because it also says: 'existing ladders won't need to be replaced straight away if in good condition.'
A stabiliser bar would be totally impractical in a lot of situations. I'd rather just dump those few jobs where a ladder is needed.
I use the same 3.5m trade ladders as you.....if a customer mentioned this id tell him to mind his own business...jobsworth... ::)roll
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THE STANDARDS ARE NOT LAW!!according to what it says on the midland ladders site so i wouldnt worry about it....
i really hate these health and safety jobsworths... >:(
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i do see some window cleaners using "domestic" ladders for window cleaning occasionally...now IMO that is stupid...their not half as stable and sturdy as proper trade ladders..... ::)roll
i also use a rojack ladderstopper when using my ladders.....
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Thanks guys. It doesn’t really bother me & he’s happy for us to continue to clean his house. It’s just that it’s his job & I don’t think he’s right but I don’t want to tell him his job. I wouldn’t want someone to tell me how to clean windows. I also don’t want him telling tales that we’re not h&s compliant.
I refuse, unless it was law? to go on a ladder course as we have almost 30 odd years or more of ladder experience between us. ‘Money for old rope’ comes to mind. Different if we were novices with ladders.
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No it’s not law, and many h&s “officers” tend to go way over the top on everything to justify there own job but also to make sure they don’t carry the can if it does go t!ts up.
With regards to ladders - as with a lot of health and safety as self employed you can do almost what you like BUT take on staff then it’s a whole different ball game regardless of how long they have used ladders, should the worst happen, even some really freak accident if you can’t show they passed some sort of test ( even of your own making ) you could be held accountable as the employer
I am no way saying you should get certificated or even keep a ladder log, but it’s worth investigating IF only to protect yourself from injury claims in the future
Darran
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Ok thanks Darren. :)
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No it’s not law, and many h&s “officers” tend to go way over the top on everything to justify there own job but also to make sure they don’t carry the can if it does go t!ts up.
With regards to ladders - as with a lot of health and safety as self employed you can do almost what you like BUT take on staff then it’s a whole different ball game regardless of how long they have used ladders, should the worst happen, even some really freak accident if you can’t show they passed some sort of test ( even of your own making ) you could be held accountable as the employer
I am no way saying you should get certificated or even keep a ladder log, but it’s worth investigating IF only to protect yourself from injury claims in the future
Darran
do you remember the health and safety officer on a video demonstrating how to work safely off a ladder a few years ago smudger?HE FELL OFF!! :D :D :D :D
one of the funniest things ive ever seen!! ;D ;D ;D
I HATE HEALTH AND SAFETY OFFICERS!!little hitlers! >:( ;D
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Dude, get an ankalad.
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I certainly do!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd_FMM8FPAU
Darran
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I certainly do!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd_FMM8FPAU
Darran
Geeza's voice at the end....."Well I think that's just proved the system doesn't work?" (http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1539372968_tongue.gif)
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Hi
You may want to read work at height regulations
This is health and safety law
All ladders must be secured
I use microlight ladder stability device for top
When bottom needs securing within risk assessment I use ladder mate
For anybody interested FWC do a IOSH accredited one day course in ladder safety and there is also a course in risk assessment
If anybody lets their employees use ladders without securing the ladder to the building (and accident happens)
I would read corporate manslaughter act
Bryan
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Hi
You may want to read work at height regulations
This is health and safety law
All ladders must be secured
I use microlight ladder stability device for top
When bottom needs securing within risk assessment I use ladder mate
For anybody interested FWC do a IOSH accredited one day course in ladder safety and there is also a course in risk assessment
If anybody lets their employees use ladders without securing the ladder to the building (and accident happens)
I would read corporate manslaughter act
Bryan
Tying off a ladder, unless it's going to be there for some considerable time and/or left unattended, is completely impractical for window cleaning.
Is this online course, along with a ladder log as Smudger suggested, enough to keep the h&s people happy?
https://www.hsqe.co.uk/course/ladder-safety/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw9ZDeBRD9ARIsAMbAmoZXeSeV2WwUc4YvJeScor2Ox5WyZYwIfvFCBQXfNkF70A-nzOGXaPsaAgVLEALw_wcB
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I have a ladder mat for sloping sideways surfaces but if a surface is that slippy we just don't use a ladder. I hate even getting the ladders off for the odd access of a flat roof. There's no way I'm messing about or trusting a ladderstop or similar.
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That will do
Remember h&s is quite subjective with a certificate at least you have shown your aware of safety and taken measures - common sense would say don’t set up a ladder on slopes or on ice etc... but without paperwork you can get bitten by the user or passerby
Unless it’s changed, window cleaning comes under short duration so securing it physically to a wall is not necessary however hooks and or ladder stop would be a reccomended precaution - footing a ladder is the least favoured method
Darran
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I certainly do!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd_FMM8FPAU
Darran
Brilliant!
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Hi Simon
Yes the course as got a lot of benefits
You will learn the correct way in the use of ladders within health and safety law
If anybody as employees
The law says you must give sufficient training in the task to be done
To me a training course is an excellent tool to do this
At the end of the theory and practical there is a tick box exam to show you have understood the course content
Courses can be done around the country
London
Manchester
Scotland
Ireland
I teach the course for the FWC in Manchester
Bryan
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Hi Smudger
Can I ask what course you did
How did they tell you to secure ladder
What was the accreditation for this course
Bryan
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The ladder association
Level
Insp u
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i do see some window cleaners using "domestic" ladders for window cleaning occasionally...now IMO that is stupid...their not half as stable and sturdy as proper trade ladders..... ::)roll
i also use a rojack ladderstopper when using my ladders.....
You actually use one of these dazmond? I just google pictures of one online. I wouldn't trust one of those on any surface. I'd rather be straight onto level dry concrete or tarmac or dug into chippings. If I was on soft enough grass or earth I would stamp the styles into the ground with the bottom rung, making sure the angle was roughly correct without using excessive force.
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i do see some window cleaners using "domestic" ladders for window cleaning occasionally...now IMO that is stupid...their not half as stable and sturdy as proper trade ladders..... ::)roll
i also use a rojack ladderstopper when using my ladders.....
You actually use one of these dazmond? I just google pictures of one online. I wouldn't trust one of those on any surface. I'd rather be straight onto level dry concrete or tarmac or dug into chippings. If I was on soft enough grass or earth I would stamp the styles into the ground with the bottom rung, making sure the angle was roughly correct without using excessive force.
yes i use it for putting ladders on imprinted concrete and certain types of smooth paving slabs...it works a treat....it gives the ladders extra grip
i dont bother using it on rough concrete or grass....no need....the normal rubber feet on my ladders suffices.....
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The Rojacks work well - but like everything you risk access where they work best
Darran