Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: nathankaye on October 02, 2018, 10:40:38 am
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(broad sweeping statement alarm 😂)
Al lot of new and I suppose existing wfp'ers usethe excuse of health n safety when explaining to new customers as to why they have switched onto wfp and it's the first line of defence when argued alongside traditional cleaners. (primarily residential work).
I've seen other threads on facebook groups that ridicule and attack ones for using ladders. I just wonder if sometimes as a trade we jump on the health n safety bandwagon as well?
For instance, I believe this is mad.
Sat having a coffee and came back to the van to witness a tree being cut down by a dude on a ladder which hasn't been tied off and using a chainsaw!
Another worker stopping traffic as a large and heavy branch is cut and left to fall onto the road or wherever it chose to land.
However I am convinced that health n safety would get involved in this case but window cleaning on domestic? Open for debate
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1538473234_Screenshot_20181002-104037.png)
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He'll be harnessed.
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It's all down to the individual which method is best for them. Trad is cheap and easy to set up where wfp is more expensive. The price you pay is for a better safer method for doing the same job. Wfp was never introduced as a better method for quality and better results for standard houses.
If a method for doing the same job massively reduces the risk of injury or even death, then there is no argument.
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I don't explain my choice of tools to the customer they want clean windows that's what I give them the choice of method and tools is mine and I choose wfp end of ;D
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I don't explain my choice of tools to the customer they want clean windows that's what I give them the choice of method and tools is mine and I choose wfp end of ;D
I used to when it was all relatively new and they wondered what it was all about. Some really didn't like it as it was so different. However, very few expect anything different now. Most make sure that I use wfp before I start
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for me personally i find wfp does a better job done properly and gives a deeper clean so i always start with that line, ocasionally i'll throw in the safety aspect to certain customers with hard to reach windows but wfp has the added bonus of not having to go on tiled roofs etc too so no chance of broken tiles, picked a few jobs up from that too in past!!
each to theyre own but for me i'd rather be safer on the ground.
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As soon as someone invents a way he can do as good (or better) a job from the ground, quicker and more safely, he'll do it that way. Until then, this is the safest practicable way.
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Wfp is not really an excuse it is reality fact a safer way to clean
Personally I always promoted the quality o the customer first over h&s because that’s what they are interested in
Unfortunately h&s can easily get out of control if the job has been risked accessed then use a ladder it may not be practical for a cherry picker here and may even have been more risky
There are still plenty of people around who poo poo h&s usually because they don’t want to pay for the extra equipment required - landlords are the worst, wanting roof cleans done but expect you to walk on the steep pitch roof with no safety equipment etc..
Just remember lose a limb or your life it cannot be replaced
Darran
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Wfp is not really an excuse it is reality fact a safer way to clean
Personally I always promoted the quality o the customer first over h&s because that’s what they are interested in
Unfortunately h&s can easily get out of control if the job has been risked accessed then use a ladder it may not be practical for a cherry picker here and may even have been more risky
There are still plenty of people around who poo poo h&s usually because they don’t want to pay for the extra equipment required - landlords are the worst, wanting roof cleans done but expect you to walk on the steep pitch roof with no safety equipment etc..
Just remember lose a limb or your life it cannot be replaced
Darran
I'm quite sure for a lot it's that they don't like the speed.
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Using a ladder, day in, day out is a arguably a breach of h s at work act. Or working at heights. If using an alternative is reasonably practicable. Innit
Wfp is cheaper than a funeral.
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Using a ladder, day in, day out is a arguably a breach of h s at work act. Or working at heights. If using an alternative is reasonably practicable. Innit
Wfp is cheaper than a funeral.
This is the problem, so much lawyer speak that it’s never straight forward as things could be, window cleaning comes under short duration and therefore acceptable - a trad cleaner can point out that going to ionic and spending £10k on a wfp system is not a real alternative- also maybe the trad cleaner cannot drive
Darran
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Using a ladder, day in, day out is a arguably a breach of h s at work act. Or working at heights. If using an alternative is reasonably practicable. Innit
Wfp is cheaper than a funeral.
This is the problem, so much lawyer speak that it’s never straight forward as things could be, window cleaning comes under short duration and therefore acceptable - a trad cleaner can point out that going to ionic and spending £10k on a wfp system is not a real alternative- also maybe the trad cleaner cannot drive
Darran
Then he/she can trad and use a backpack and a cheap pole for the upstairs for a few hundred quid.
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In the eyes of health and safety if your employees can't do their job safely then they can't do the job irrespective of equipment cost.
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Using a ladder, day in, day out is a arguably a breach of h s at work act. Or working at heights. If using an alternative is reasonably practicable. Innit
Wfp is cheaper than a funeral.
This is the problem, so much lawyer speak that it’s never straight forward as things could be, window cleaning comes under short duration and therefore acceptable - a trad cleaner can point out that going to ionic and spending £10k on a wfp system is not a real alternative- also maybe the trad cleaner cannot drive
Darran
An interesting side point from an health aspect and I don't know if it was just my nurse or if anybody else has had the same experience.
After I had a health scare I booked in for my first Mot at the doctors and one of the fitness questions was in relation to exercises. I can't remember the scale of it, but along the lines of:
"apart from walking when your working and going to the shops etc, do you do much extra walking."
From previous questions she knew I was a window cleaner and I do a lot of walking with the nature of the job. But apart from school runs etc I don't do a lot of extra walking apart from the odd wknd etc. But all of that wasn't allowed, so on her paper I do no form of exercise at all.......... Absolutely ridiculous
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Using a ladder, day in, day out is a arguably a breach of h s at work act. Or working at heights. If using an alternative is reasonably practicable. Innit
Wfp is cheaper than a funeral.
This is the problem, so much lawyer speak that it’s never straight forward as things could be, window cleaning comes under short duration and therefore acceptable - a trad cleaner can point out that going to ionic and spending £10k on a wfp system is not a real alternative- also maybe the trad cleaner cannot drive
Darran
Then he/she can trad and use a backpack and a cheap pole for the upstairs for a few hundred quid.
Maybe - if that’s known about however humping barrels and backpacks about bring there own h&s issues and again if you can’t drive then wfp is not an alternative
You can be tied up in knots on whatever route you take
Darran
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He is trying to clean a window in the picture?
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Using a ladder, day in, day out is a arguably a breach of h s at work act. Or working at heights. If using an alternative is reasonably practicable. Innit
Wfp is cheaper than a funeral.
This is the problem, so much lawyer speak that it’s never straight forward as things could be, window cleaning comes under short duration and therefore acceptable - a trad cleaner can point out that going to ionic and spending £10k on a wfp system is not a real alternative- also maybe the trad cleaner cannot drive
Darran
An interesting side point from an health aspect and I don't know if it was just my nurse or if anybody else has had the same experience.
After I had a health scare I booked in for my first Mot at the doctors and one of the fitness questions was in relation to exercises. I can't remember the scale of it, but along the lines of:
"apart from walking when your working and going to the shops etc, do you do much extra walking."
From previous questions she knew I was a window cleaner and I do a lot of walking with the nature of the job. But apart from school runs etc I don't do a lot of extra walking apart from the odd wknd etc. But all of that wasn't allowed, so on her paper I do no form of exercise at all.......... Absolutely ridiculous
walking is minimal in this job with wfp these days....i used to do a lot more walking up and down ladders.
now postmen walk a lot! ;D
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It's not as bad as it was....
A few years back someone (prolific on this site at the time) was charging people for a window cleaning h&s training course. I believe there was some kind of con so he was getting like £1500 per person off the government too.
According to some of the mugs folk who went on it he said that:
1. While cleaning windows you should have a cordoned off saftey zone with a distance from the operator at least the full height of the pole. No idea how he imagined that was in any way "reasonably practicable" on a residential round.
2. There is NO safe, reasonably practicable way of cleaning a window above a flat roof. People paid him money for that golden nugget. ::)roll
I don't clean windows above flat roofs because it's easier and more cost effective to avoid carrying ladders and clambering up them (or hiring a cherry picker, erecting a scaffold tower, bungee jumping from a hot air balloon, whatever) for 0.001% of the windows out there. That's my decision. However, if I were charging people money to show them the safest way to clean a window, I'd show them the safest way to clean a window.
Not seen him on here in a while and his h&s "training" business has been dissolved, meanwhile the window cleaning industry carries on without 30ft force fields and everything is fine.
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ladders are still essential for some work.....for instance i had a large domestic job to clean the other day and texted the night before to leave the side gate unlocked...she forgot(only the second time shes forgot in years)it took me an extra 5 mins to get my ladders off and get over the gate.this job is 6 weekly and i didnt fancy just cleaning the fronts(its an £80 job).i still made £80 for an hours work.......
some other large domestics have large flat roof kitchen extensions,some of them with glass roofs that i clean....these jobs would be impossible to clean without ladders....
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If you have top earning stuff that you might need ladders for is suppose I see your point Daz, but personally I am 99.9% ladderless now and loving it.
I've almost forgotten I've got a roof rack ;D ;D
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even without the larger good paying jobs i still need ladders for locked/bolted gates occasionally.they come in handy every week....
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even without the larger good paying jobs i still need ladders for locked/bolted gates occasionally.they come in handy every week....
For me if gates are locked even though i send a text reminder, then back won't get cleaned and I still charge. If they forgot its not my fault. Those are my terms that I make clear from the start. Rarely a problem.
Climbing over gates these days are a recipe for disaster. You damage anything your to blame. Plus technically it could be seen as break and enter.
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I have to check and record the condition of ladders weekly and before every use. If HSE were to audit us and this hadn’t been done, I’d be in trouble! All our guys do a ladder course too.
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even without the larger good paying jobs i still need ladders for locked/bolted gates occasionally.they come in handy every week....
For me if gates are locked even though i send a text reminder, then back won't get cleaned and I still charge. If they forgot its not my fault. Those are my terms that I make clear from the start. Rarely a problem.
Climbing over gates these days are a recipe for disaster. You damage anything your to blame. Plus technically it could be seen as break and enter.
Are you for real?I would nt dream of charging full price for doing half a job....also breaking and entering climbing over a gate?I doubt it.....
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I don't charge full price if I can't complete a job. My round is very compact and I just move on to the next job. However, I do have a handful of customers who wouldn't hear of me accepting less than full price if they forget to unlock a gate especially after I'd called them.
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I don't mess around climbing gates. I text night before and if the property is still secured by a locked gate, I charge them 75% of the full price. This is clearly stated on my info sheet that all my new customers get and all my existing customers know also.
If however I fail to text the night before, well its just charged accordingly to what's cleaned as it's my fault.
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Depends, if she’s fit, I’ll climb over the gate. If she isn’t I don’t. Odd innit how the brain works, but that’s usually the criteria.
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some of my customers go on holiday and lock their gate only at these times.i dont notify these customers so i dont know until i turn up.it takes 2 mins to put a section of ladder either side of their gate to access the backs.....
other times i use my ladders to lean over and unbolt a gate( i also have a little step up for these too)
luckily its only for the odd job here and there as most are easy access or leave them unlocked after a text the night before....
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I have to check and record the condition of ladders weekly and before every use. If HSE were to audit us and this hadn’t been done, I’d be in trouble! All our guys do a ladder course too.
thats ridiculous! ::)roll
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even without the larger good paying jobs i still need ladders for locked/bolted gates occasionally.they come in handy every week....
For me if gates are locked even though i send a text reminder, then back won't get cleaned and I still charge. If they forgot its not my fault. Those are my terms that I make clear from the start. Rarely a problem.
Climbing over gates these days are a recipe for disaster. You damage anything your to blame. Plus technically it could be seen as break and enter.
most of the time you can get over a gate without even touching the gate(ladder section either side)
what happens if you text a customer the night before to leave the gate unlocked and their away?you clean the fronts and bill them for the whole house....i wouldnt be happy thats for sure if you were my window cleaner! ::)roll ;D.....
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even without the larger good paying jobs i still need ladders for locked/bolted gates occasionally.they come in handy every week....
For me if gates are locked even though i send a text reminder, then back won't get cleaned and I still charge. If they forgot its not my fault. Those are my terms that I make clear from the start. Rarely a problem.
Climbing over gates these days are a recipe for disaster. You damage anything your to blame. Plus technically it could be seen as break and enter.
most of the time you can get over a gate without even touching the gate(ladder section either side)
what happens if you text a customer the night before to leave the gate unlocked and their away?you clean the fronts and bill them for the whole house....i wouldnt be happy thats for sure if you were my window cleaner! ::)roll ;D.....
They have a choice to text back as well you know.
Most of my customers will text back and say
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1538642217_aviary-image-1538642225121.jpeg)
I personally don't mind this and will charge accordingly. If they don't let you know for the sake of not sending a text then they know the terms and conditions. It really is that simple
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1538652367_Screenshot_20181004-122244_Gallery.jpg)
Only customer who needed a text the night before and she FORGOT AGAIN!!! ::)roll
This is an 8 weekly job in the middle of loads of compact 4 weekly estate work....
I'm now thinking of adding an extra charge every time they forget for getting the ladders off!
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1538652367_Screenshot_20181004-122244_Gallery.jpg)
Only customer who needed a text the night before and she FORGOT AGAIN!!! ::)roll
This is an 8 weekly job in the middle of loads of compact 4 weekly estate work....
I'm now thinking of adding an extra charge every time they forget for getting the ladders off!
Problem is though buddy she knows you will do that so she won't care if she forgets, that's her expectations from you from now on. That's why it keeps happening.
Trust me. If you made it clear on your texts or from the start if gates are locked after you've taken the precation to text her that the back won't get cleaned and x will be charged (in your favour). It puts more pressure on customers to remember to unlock the gate.
It just setting out expectations and educating them to the way you work. I've never had a problem with this method. If I did, they would be dropped.
If one of my customers are on holiday they they always let me know. Same way as they tell the milkman and the newsagents paper delivery to be suspended.
Give it a try mate. It works.
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1538652367_Screenshot_20181004-122244_Gallery.jpg)
Only customer who needed a text the night before and she FORGOT AGAIN!!! ::)roll
This is an 8 weekly job in the middle of loads of compact 4 weekly estate work....
I'm now thinking of adding an extra charge every time they forget for getting the ladders off!
Problem is though buddy she knows you will do that so she won't care if she forgets, that's her expectations from you from now on. That's why it keeps happening.
Trust me. If you made it clear on your texts or from the start if gates are locked after you've taken the precation to text her that the back won't get cleaned and x will be charged (in your favour). It puts more pressure on customers to remember to unlock the gate.
It just setting out expectations and educating them to the way you work. I've never had a problem with this method. If I did, they would be dropped.
If one of my customers are on holiday they they always let me know. Same way as they tell the milkman and the newsagents paper delivery to be suspended.
Give it a try mate. It works.
i dont normally have many problems paul but lately ive had a fair few who ve forgot to unlock their gates for me after a text the night before.....like i say this womans done it twice in a row but never forgot previously......maybe shes got early onset dementia? ::)roll
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See now dazmond is happy ( well not happy but he's made the effort ) to make sure the jibs done for her even tho she's not opened the gate, now if that was on a commercial site all hell would brake loose from an h&s point.
It's like Jesus AV a moment ......
Rams needs to be sorted out, so go take 10 mins while we email this
Ladder permits
Working at height permit
At least 2 guys footing the ladders for him to step over
H&s is mad sometimes ....... We have a site were we clean windows, we have to put barriers all the way along and completely section off each area, sometimes complete sections, cones not good enough for some
Every site has there own h&s and some see common sense other see an opportunity to target the contractors and make themselves look special
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1538652367_Screenshot_20181004-122244_Gallery.jpg)
Only customer who needed a text the night before and she FORGOT AGAIN!!! ::)roll
This is an 8 weekly job in the middle of loads of compact 4 weekly estate work....
I'm now thinking of adding an extra charge every time they forget for getting the ladders off!
I have one who forgets 50% of the time, I clean the front first, put a full priced note through, go round back and if it's locked, full price it is,
pays every time, after a reminder, ::)roll
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See now dazmond is happy ( well not happy but he's made the effort ) to make sure the jibs done for her even tho she's not opened the gate, now if that was on a commercial site all hell would brake loose from an h&s point.
It's like Jesus AV a moment ......
Rams needs to be sorted out, so go take 10 mins while we email this
Ladder permits
Working at height permit
At least 2 guys footing the ladders for him to step over
H&s is mad sometimes ....... We have a site were we clean windows, we have to put barriers all the way along and completely section off each area, sometimes complete sections, cones not good enough for some
Every site has there own h&s and some see common sense other see an opportunity to target the contractors and make themselves look special
i feel better now after reading this...... ;D
ive got commercial jobs too but never need any RAMS(just proof of PL insurance for some of em).....
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See now dazmond is happy ( well not happy but he's made the effort ) to make sure the jibs done for her even tho she's not opened the gate, now if that was on a commercial site all hell would brake loose from an h&s point.
It's like Jesus AV a moment ......
Rams needs to be sorted out, so go take 10 mins while we email this
Ladder permits
Working at height permit
At least 2 guys footing the ladders for him to step over
H&s is mad sometimes ....... We have a site were we clean windows, we have to put barriers all the way along and completely section off each area, sometimes complete sections, cones not good enough for some
Every site has there own h&s and some see common sense other see an opportunity to target the contractors and make themselves look special
i feel better now after reading this...... ;D
ive got commercial jobs too but never need any RAMS(just proof of PL insurance for some of em).....
Most larger commercial customers will have there own on site h& s officer he should be getting you to do a rams for every type of job you do on site , one for wfp , one for gutter vaccing , one for pressurewashing ,and so the list goes on if they don’t get you to do that they will be in serious trouble should an accident happen , all commercial customers no matter how small have a duty of care to you and the public,and there staff to get a rams from you that’s the law . However we do a number of large hotels for a very well known company and they have never asked for anything not evan pl insurance I have spoken to them several times about it but they just don’t bother shocking really but I have paper copy’s done should the worst happen at least I have covered my own back
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In my previous job on a chemical complex I asked a visitor not to park his vehicle in an area which was closed to vehicles for h and s reasons (risk of explosion due to the air intake on his vehicle possibly causing a disastrous spark)
He ignored me
10 minutes later I told a crane driver to move a portakabin and block his exit from the site
His face was a picture
took him about 2 hours to get on his way ;D