Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: jinky230 on June 25, 2006, 01:05:18 am
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guys food for thought
with traditional window cleaning you only had to keep your sweeguees cloths and ladder in good nick- maintenance was a doddle and costs were moderate
as we move in to wfp have we really looked at the bigger picture, we all insist that it is safer, but are we really justifying our investment.
I look at the maintenance and the amount of things that could go wrong
and compared to traditional this is scary.
pumps and varistreams can pack in
poles clamps can wear
brushes jets and connectors can have faults
hoses can get damaged
battery and chargers can go wrong
ro and di filters can muckup
renewal of resin
then there is the van the wear and tear on vehicle due to excess weight
what if your van is off the road you are not earning
always easy for a mate to transport a ladder for you for a day or 2
then you are let down with suppliers they cant get the parts to you quick enough
so you miss out on several days work and you say it is ok i stay beside my supplier. but what if they are on holiday or do not have the parts in stock
you have now put yourself in the position of relying on equipment
so what do you do - do you backup with buying excess equipment to cover you
then you employ and they need to be equipped and have backup as well.costs start to escolate again
maybe sweeky has got it right and we cant admit it as we are so rapped up trying to justify our investment.
personnally i went into wfp because I have had too many falls from roofs, and I am in a position after many years to afford the crossover, but I do threat for new lads starting out that they do not realise the costs involved not just starting up but the ongoing cost of resin filters and renewing equipment
I believe if you are just doing domestic you need to think this thru before the profits you made traditional start dwindling keeping up with wfp
also meet someone in your area who is also wfp and you can back each other up- equipment wise
wfp is a great system - but at a cost and you need to be prepared to soak these costs which do not stop when you buy a system, once you introduce this to your customers there is no going back, because you have told then it is the best thing since slice bread,just hopely at a cost you can afford
just my view jinky
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Hi Jinky
That must be one of the first honest postings I have seen regarding wfp,
I'm still Traditional, but I am changing over once I can get my funds right, after spending almost £21,000 on builders.
but what I will say to you is that because of this forum, and reading posts on it over the past few months, I had already come to the same conclusion about added costs and replacment parts.
I had already intended to buy replacment parts for everthing including pumps, ro/di, pipes and joints, even spare poles, and brushes,etc. so in affect buying two systems.
Just like you said its extra costs, but one we all must bare, so as not to be out of business for a few days or weeks.
How can you justify to your customer, when you turn up with ladders one day, just because a hose or clip has gone, and you cant get a replacment for a while, so like you said I think spares are a must.
I know a lot of wfp guy's on here already carry spares with them, but more spares = less proffit.
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Yes, its all true. The other thing that wasn't mentioned is that when you start out you usually buy a small RO system and cheap poles etc.
Then with time you start to realise that you need to upgrade things.
However, I still think its better with WFP and the potential for earning more is definitely there.
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Jeff vince is right we all go in with the cheap route in mind and end up buying
dearer poles etc for less hassle, so take this in to concideration
One person I know who did it right from day 1 is gary from glr he went the dearer
route from day one and got it right avoiding false economy
however if you do get it wrong then the cheaper stuff can always act as backup
one of the things I got wrong was buying an unger pole, and before any one sticks up for it, it is just my opinion, I personnallly think they are crap and a total waste of money, an extra couple of quid could have got it right, and I have talked to other wfp and they think the same.
I thought I would load this post for newbees as some guys are under the impression that a couple of quid gets you up and running and might not be prepared for the long term costs.
We want to bring lads on in wfp to bring it into the public eye and have it as standard that the public accept.Not have them go so far then throw it in a cupboard and badmouth the system because they did not cater for costs from the beginning.
jinky
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guys food for thought
with traditional window cleaning you only had to keep your sweeguees cloths and ladder in good nick- maintenance was a doddle and costs were moderate
as we move in to wfp have we really looked at the bigger picture, we all insist that it is safer, but are we really justifying our investment.
I look at the maintenance and the amount of things that could go wrong
and compared to traditional this is scary.
pumps and varistreams can pack in
poles clamps can wear
brushes jets and connectors can have faults
hoses can get damaged
battery and chargers can go wrong
ro and di filters can muckup
renewal of resin
then there is the van the wear and tear on vehicle due to excess weight
what if your van is off the road you are not earning
always easy for a mate to transport a ladder for you for a day or 2
then you are let down with suppliers they cant get the parts to you quick enough
so you miss out on several days work and you say it is ok i stay beside my supplier. but what if they are on holiday or do not have the parts in stock
you have now put yourself in the position of relying on equipment
so what do you do - do you backup with buying excess equipment to cover you
then you employ and they need to be equipped and have backup as well.costs start to escolate again
maybe sweeky has got it right and we cant admit it as we are so rapped up trying to justify our investment.
personnally i went into wfp because I have had too many falls from roofs, and I am in a position after many years to afford the crossover, but I do threat for new lads starting out that they do not realise the costs involved not just starting up but the ongoing cost of resin filters and renewing equipment
I believe if you are just doing domestic you need to think this thru before the profits you made traditional start dwindling keeping up with wfp
also meet someone in your area who is also wfp and you can back each other up- equipment wise
wfp is a great system - but at a cost and you need to be prepared to soak these costs which do not stop when you buy a system, once you introduce this to your customers there is no going back, because you have told then it is the best thing since slice bread,just hopely at a cost you can afford
just my view jinky
Sure thing. The ongoing costs of WFP are higher . Earning a higher hourly rate and getting more customers can help compensate for that but as I have been doing mainly domestic, I now feel that getting a few larger jobs to add to my business will help offset costs. It's a good idea to carry spares. I have spares of some things but not others. I bought a spare battery for my trolley recently and I alternate them when one runs down. It saves unnecessary charging as I couldn't tell at what point to remove the lone battery to charge it. It got me out of jail recently because I left my van lights on and ran the van battery too low to start. I did the jump start from the spare trolley battery.
Although I feel that a fair bit of my existing work is a bit low priced, anything I have taken on in the last year/18 months has been priced more suitably. I get declined on some jobs because of it but hey, that's business - not personal.
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Jinky wrote " guys food for thought
with traditional window cleaning you only had to keep your sweeguees cloths and ladder in good nick- maintenance was a doddle and costs were moderate
as we move in to wfp have we really looked at the bigger picture, we all insist that it is safer, but are we really justifying our investment.
[)color=Blue] (I dont think you can put a price on a life and wfp is an investement in yourself[/color]
I look at the maintenance and the amount of things that could go wrong
and compared to traditional this is scary.
[color=Blue]Scary ? no way 8 years on and it becomes common place, just like a car or ladders they need servicing.[/color]
pumps and varistreams can pack in
[color=Blue] 1 spare pump on my Second pole system) Not everyone needs a varistream. [/color]
poles clamps can wear (I dont use them)brushes jets and connectors can have faults[color=Blue]Jets £3 pack of 6) Connectors John Guest havent needed to relace any.[/color]hoses can get damaged$ years on my current one)
battery and chargers can go wrong
(Battery £14 charger 4 years)
ro and di filters can muckup RO £80/2.5 Yrs)
renewal of resin
then there is the van the wear and tear on vehicle due to excess weight
I use same car/van and carry max 200kg What wear and tear.what if your van is off the road you are not earning
always easy for a mate to transport a ladder for you for a day or 2
Equipement can be moved to another car in 20Min.)
then you are let down with suppliers they cant get the parts to you quick enough
so you miss out on several days work and you say it is ok i stay beside my supplier. but what if they are on holiday or do not have the parts in stock
you have now put yourself in the position of relying on equipmen
[color=Blue]t My 2 suppliers are available 24hr delivery or I can buy local.)
so what do you do - do you backup with buying excess equipment to cover you
then you employ and they need to be equipped and have backup as well.costs start to escolate again
maybe sweeky has got it right and we cant admit it as we are so rapped up trying to justify our investment
. DIY say £600 max.
personnally i went into wfp because I have had too many falls from roofs, and I am in a position after many years to afford the crossover, but I do threat for new lads starting out that they do not realise the costs involved not just starting up but the ongoing cost of resin filters and renewing equipment
I believe if you are just doing domestic you need to think this thru before the profits you made traditional start dwindling keeping up with wfp
also meet someone in your area who is also wfp and you can back each other up- equipment wise
wfp is a great system - but at a cost and you need to be prepared to soak these costs which do not stop when you buy a system, once you introduce this to your customers there is no going back, because you have told then it is the best thing since slice bread,just hopely at a cost you can afford[
color=Blue] (I just told mine it would save my life. Its not a "monster", just a brush on a stick with a pump and power scource )[/color]
just my view jinky
Sorry the blue colour attempt failed.- Jeff
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Nice one Jinky.
All good points, and exactly why I can't be bothered.
As I said on another thread just now, I come home, sit down, and don't think about work until I'm in the car in the morning.
I couldn't be doing with this un-paid messing about with kit.
With that and the maintainance, it's eaten any extra I would make anyway, as it wouldn't speed me up much.
I just spent £30 on a new bucket, rubbers and microfibres.
It hurt, because that's the first money I've spent on equipment this year..... ;)
Rog.
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I`ve cleaned windows for 28 years. February this year I had a fall it broke my fifth vertebrae 11 weeks off work. I consider myself extremely lucky to be able to be back at work. It is a life altering experience. I`m sure the lads that have died this year few they may be would have without doubt preferred to "feed the monster".
Safe window cleaning wishes to you all.
kind regards
Jack Avery
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Jeff good points made and money can be saved if you know about wfp
but look at the newbees , there is one guy on this forum who bought an andrew mc cann trolley and now finds he gets on better with the backpack and the trolley is left in a cupboard.how many guys have bought trailer systems to find that they have bought the wrong thing for the work they want to do, then there is the wrong poles for the wrong heights, you say john guest connectors we had them on our brushes and had to fit release connectors which cost £80 as the brushes would not release from the john guest connectors and we spent more time trying to get the brush of the pole than anything else
the battery charger for my backpack packed in after 6 weeks I contacted the supplier to be told that he does not have a spare, he was very good and sent me an alternative charger , which I have to cut the wires rejoin them to get the charger working
wfp is safer ,
is it quicker on domestic that is debatable
does it cost more - yes
if I was starting again would I go wfp - yes
the post was not put up to say wfp is a monster, but to inform neebees if they do not research it correctly it could turn into a monster, and a drain on their pocket
jinky
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Hi Jinky. Good post mate, i agree with what your saying.
Before jumping in to wfp you have to look at your work to see if its compatable. Mine is, so its worth while but then you have guys like Squeaky who have good work too but wfp is a waste of time & money because it wont suit there work.
Thers a lot to condider with wfp, loads more than i thought, buying the kit is only the start of parting with your cash. I didnt think about the on going cost but im lucky because my work is suited to wfp it can carry the costs.
Macc
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I MUST BE ONE OF THE LUCKY ONES , oops , all i carry is a couple of jubilee clips , and 2 screwdrivers , if anything goes wrong with any thing i have its a 5 mile drive to my supplier , and he is never out of stock of anything !
Rich P @ F
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Debt /investment is the way forward ;)
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jeff no problem you will need to unlock you email so I can contact for a telephone nos, I look forward to a gab
jinky
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This is a good thread which i shall watch with interest.
For me i changed over for two reasons.
The safety aspect of WFP
and i have had a back operation and carring ladders on my shoulder used to play my back up.
Since changing over to WFP this has been a lot less and since getting a tank in my van and not having to lift those 25ltr water containers up i have had no problem.
I think if i stayed on ladders my days as a window cleaner would have been numbered due to my bad problems i have had.
The thing i have noticed once you get your first WFP system thats when the spending starts as you want to add things to make it work better for you.
So the cost just rises you got your system then you find you need a bigger van/car and will we every be happy with what we have got there is always that little something else.
I have no regrets though i am better off financially and enjoy my work more.
Paul
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no doubt about it, it does cost more to work wfp - but not much. Most of the money guys spend on wfp is 'novelty' money, what I mean is, they mght fancy trying a different type of hose/pole/pump etc. The real running costs are quite low comparitively. However, wfp is so much quicker and literally the difference in maintainance is 1 average house per month, now consider that most wcs will do twice the work with wfp over trad and the true value of wfp becomes apparent.
For example
Costs are - 1 merlin sed filter per 3 months (£30), 11ltr resin (£45) plus extra fuel (say extra £10 per week)
Over three months that equals £195 more than traditional.
Now factor in that I can do around £250 per day compared to about £130 traditional (ok so you need to get the extra work but it does build up). Not hard to see that it doesn't take long to make up the extra.
Plus the extra safety and my legs are not killing me when I get home.
For me personally theres no way I'd go back trad but everyone is different and have different rounds - but I bet if squeeky spent an afternoon with a wfp'er he'd change his mind.
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jeff you have mail
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The points made are valid, on going running costs with WFP are far higher than with trad, as of course is your initial investment, even if you go the DIY route you are still going to part with something like £500 to a £1000.
And of course you will be upgrading as you go along, I've recently spent £180 on a new hose reel and 100m of hose, I've replaced my battery once, and my battery charger twice, and I've had one pump burn out on me...
I started out with a trolley system, but I upgraded to a full van mount...more costs to factor in!
But you don't need a load of comercial work to make WFP pay for itself, apart from a handfull of medium size offices, my best earning money is domestic, and a lot of that is on estates, but I don't go in cheap...and this is the important bit....
WFP allows you to work much faster, you WILL get more work done and the biggest problem with this is that just because you are working faster, some will think that means they can charge less money, be more competitive and get more work...
Well you can...but they haven't factored in all those costs have they...they have spent all this money, have much higher on going running costs and they go and charge less money.
For instance; A georgian house you might charge £25 for if working trad (45-60 mimutes hard graft)
Well with WFP that same property will be knocked out in an easy 20 minutes, so cos you are that much faster you only charge the customer a tenner, after all, you can knock out 3 of these in an hour, thats a fiver more per hour than you were gettig prior to WFP....innit?
so all that investment and all you are doing is earning £20-£30 a day more, or maybe not even that...at the end of the year you may have turned over more money, and you'll probably pay less tax too! Great eh? LESS TAX!!!
Less taxx merely means you have earned less money, your income (as against your turnover) will in real terms have dropped.
The single biggest mistake you can do with regards WFP is to start slashing prices and going in cheap because you are now faster at what you do.
And it is happening...in some areas competition as a result of WFP is seeing prices fall.
And it is no good the ladder monkeys gloating over it either...it effects them too, effectively rulling them out of leaded and georgian work (yeah I know...who wants that work anyway!)
But also those slightly larger accounts, the bigger the account, the bigger the difference in the time taken to clean the windows between the two methods.
And then as you realise that because you have gone in cheap, you have to crack the work out at a more and more rapid rate, unfortunately if you start to rush with WFP your standards will really begin to drop, corners start to get cut (and that does play into the hands of the ladder monkeys as they can quickly point out that WFP is rubbish, windows are covered in spots!)
So it is right and proper that those wishing to come into the WFP arena are made aware of that it isn't just the initial high investment in your new system, and you have to cover that cost, but there is also the ongoing extra costs to be made aware of.
Ian
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One of the biggest mistakes that people make is by starting with a trolley and then having to upgrade to a vehicle mount after a few months (who wants to lug heavy jerry cans around?)
I know because years ago I did the same thing and I reckon this was my biggest wasted money spent, as not only did I buy an expensive trolley but then I had to equip my vehicle out as well , fortunately I had also fitted up a trailer system as well as the trolley so I did have an intermediate to use.
My other mistake was purchasing a sectional aluminium pole with twist clamps (very pricey), such a bad pole to use that after 2 months I threw it in the garage until I managed to sell it on.
I bought from one of the established firms (not the industry changing one!) and including trailer costs spent about £6500 on my set up costs, if I did this now I would have not wasted as much money on 'dead ends' and could probably have setup with a similar system for about £2000 (trailer, vehicle, 45ft pole, 30ft pole, 12ft pole, 15ft pole) because costs have come down since then.
If in doubt try someone else system out, work with them for free, and listen to those who have been doing it 'seriously' for at least 3 years, any one who has done it for less time is still learning themselves.
Alex
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One of the biggest mistakes that people make is by starting with a trolley and then having to upgrade to a vehicle mount after a few months (who wants to lug heavy jerry cans around?)
I know because years ago I did the same thing and I reckon this was my biggest wasted money spent, as not only did I buy an expensive trolley but then I had to equip my vehicle out as well , fortunately I had also fitted up a trailer system as well as the trolley so I did have an intermediate to use.
My other mistake was purchasing a sectional aluminium pole with twist clamps (very pricey), such a bad pole to use that after 2 months I threw it in the garage until I managed to sell it on.
I bought from one of the established firms (not the industry changing one!) and including trailer costs spent about £6500 on my set up costs, if I did this now I would have not wasted as much money on 'dead ends' and could probably have setup with a similar system for about £2000 (trailer, vehicle, 45ft pole, 30ft pole, 12ft pole, 15ft pole) because costs have come down since then.
If in doubt try someone else system out, work with them for free, and listen to those who have been doing it 'seriously' for at least 3 years, any one who has done it for less time is still learning themselves.
Alex
Agreed that buying the wrong stuff for the way you wish to work can be a pricey mistake. However, I have never regretted having a trolley even though I soon bought a van mount system afterwards. I find that the trolley still earns its keep very well - though I suppose it depends on what sort of work you do. Knowing what I now know, I would have bought a trolley with attached hosereel though as it would save moving it around so much.
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Im the same started out with the trolley and now gone a van mount.
But i could not be without the trolley i still need this on some of my work just because of the distance from the van i need to work.
Im glad i started with the trolley and if i had to start afresh again.
I would start with a trolley again but with an attached hosereel.
But i would have a tank fitted for water as it does not do your back any good lifting those water barrels.
Paul
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What a silly thread, moaning about cost of maintaining wfp while on different threads saying you can do £200 + days, ah the cost must be crippling some of you, you are not working for minimum wage so please no moaning, its silly wfp is brill and so is trad if some do not want to use wfp so what more fool you. not to mention tight
cheers simb0
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Got to admit , i totally agree with Alex G , i already had a van mount but saw fit to build this trolly system , it was for 1 job i picked up , so far i have used it once and to be completely honest i really think that the £160 i spent building it was a total waste of money , i hate dragging it around and changing the barrels all the time , does my head in !
I now do the same job with a longer hose !
I suppose its another tool in my box though , if the van mount goes to ground it'll get me out of trouble wont it .
The best advice i can give is think very carefully about your type of work and get your system right first time .
Even van mounts should be thought about carefully , if you have the space get the biggest tank you can afford or fit , and pumps are the same for a few extra quid , get the 100 not the 60 , although saying that my 60 goes 4 floors no trouble , but i only run 1 pole at the moment .
And hoses are a downfall too , in my opinion get microbore staight away , you will only end up upgrading your normal hose after a few months , and of course when you do this it'll cost you a bit to change the connections .
Rich P @ F
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One of the biggest mistakes that people make is by starting with a trolley and then having to upgrade to a vehicle mount after a few months (who wants to lug heavy jerry cans around?)
I know because years ago I did the same thing and I reckon this was my biggest wasted money spent, as not only did I buy an expensive trolley but then I had to equip my vehicle out as well , fortunately I had also fitted up a trailer system as well as the trolley so I did have an intermediate to use.
My other mistake was purchasing a sectional aluminium pole with twist clamps (very pricey), such a bad pole to use that after 2 months I threw it in the garage until I managed to sell it on.
I bought from one of the established firms (not the industry changing one!) and including trailer costs spent about £6500 on my set up costs, if I did this now I would have not wasted as much money on 'dead ends' and could probably have setup with a similar system for about £2000 (trailer, vehicle, 45ft pole, 30ft pole, 12ft pole, 15ft pole) because costs have come down since then.
If in doubt try someone else system out, work with them for free, and listen to those who have been doing it 'seriously' for at least 3 years, any one who has done it for less time is still learning themselves.
Alex
Agreed that buying the wrong stuff for the way you wish to work can be a pricey mistake. However, I have never regretted having a trolley even though I soon bought a van mount system afterwards. I find that the trolley still earns its keep very well - though I suppose it depends on what sort of work you do. Knowing what I now know, I would have bought a trolley with attached hosereel though as it would save moving it around so much.
i agree
ive been WFP (for all my round) for 2 years now (still a starter in some eyes)
Ive only brought a new hozelockmicor pipe to hosepipe connection and a brush (i didnt need the brush, but wanted to see what every1 was raving about)
Oh i also brought a 10 quid backpack hand sprayer for the odd house its easier for (1 has loads of winding steps)
my RO now outputs 005 TDS water, the resin has been dead for weeks (it does Nothing now, i wil change it when i can be bothered, but 005 works well enough), ive spent 20 quid on resin (2 X 1 Kg bags)
ive still got the same unger 3 X 2M pole, changed the cones on it twice (a couple of quid each)
Im on a water meter and my bill has gone up about 25 quid a month since i began with the WFP
a trolley / cart does me great, i have just brought a new car for work, air con the works :) i could have gone with a van, but to be honest i like cars, i stick 6 25 L barrels and the cart in the boot, the pole over the seats, ive seen a guy on my estate with a van, he moved the van every few houses (not just moves it, winds the hose in, and then moves it) thats not for me
people mention going cheap, well i guess some people will see the DIY route as going cheap, its cheaper, YES, it does the job well, YES, you can adapt as you like when you make it, so its for you, YES
thats the trouble with buying a system of the shelf, you buy a system that they want to sell you (hotwater systems any1), not what you actually need
feed the monster, my monster must be starving to death ( or eating grass )
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What a silly thread, moaning about cost of maintaining wfp while on different threads saying you can do £200 + days, ah the cost must be crippling some of you, you are not working for minimum wage so please no moaning, its silly wfp is brill and so is trad if some do not want to use wfp so what more fool you. not to mention tight
cheers simb0
Simbo,
This thread is not a 'moan' about the cost of running WFP, but those coming into it need to know that there are higher running costs and these have to be taken into account.
And yes, £200 a day is very feasible...but it won't be if you cut your prices because you are faster!!
Ian
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i started window cleaning 12yrs ago and wfp 8 months ago
i bought 2 of the new omnitrolleys the 50 ltr and the 125 ltr both can be used as trolleys or van mounts so i didnt need an expensive van mount which i wouldnt use much as i am 100% domestic
i have just bought 2 backpacks and have been using them on everything for the last 3 weeks to see which is faster the trolley or backpack and i must say that the backpacks are much faster even after going back to the van to refill them which only takes seconds to do.
i have also just bought the cleantech small fanjets and these are a great watersaving device but i wouldnt use fan jets on the houses with the vents directly above the windows
i added up how much i had spent the other day and it works out somewhere near to 10k but this also includes buying a window cleaning round off a guy who cleaned the same area as me he had a fall so i bought him out
i do agree that wfp does take more of your time when you are at home but i find that i am always tinkering with things to make me faster and i enjoy it i enjoy golf and am always buying things to make me better and it is the same with wfp i enjoy doing it so i dont mind spending money to get better at it because the better i get the more money i earn
gary
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Hi jinky
you are right about the cost the problem is that evryone is the expert when selling you something but all contadict each other they all consider they have the best product really its horses for courses I spent a lot over the first two years to find the perfect set up unless you confine yourself to one type of property there is not one perfect system like most thing in life its a compramise and a question of choice. I think it is also important to try to understand the system you have so you can fix most things your self I know people run there poles in just to have the plastic shims fitted this really is a waste of money most places will charge labour out at £35.00+ ph It is sometimes worth checking out if there is a local dealer it reduces the down time and the need to carry spares
safety is the most inportant aspect and it is up to all wc to make the public aware that this industry is profesional and not a part time beer money job a lot of people still consider most window cleaners to part time or cash in in hand non tax paying most of my customers are more willing to pay the higher prices now I have the pole system as they can see it requires a much larger investment it has taken time but is paying off
Like you jinky I would still go wfp if starting out again I just wish I could of found out about thing a cheaper way I really would have brought a different system the benifit of reading the post here would of been substantial wish I know about the forum four years ago being fair to the manufacturers things are improving all the time.
best of luck to all considering wfp think carefully what you require before you decide which system to go for.
regards grant
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I did loads and I mean loads of research before going WFP.
There are many things to consider when deciding the best way to go. Not least the nature of your work and the vehicles you work from.
The Freedom trolley is a result of this. It was designed and built to suit my workload/vehicles etc. Now.. with a mind to the future I had it inbuilt to be able to power any tank mount/hose/pole combination as I wanted to get more commercial work. I now have a van with a tank and the trolley powers that for the "big stuff" I keep saying this and its true. It was only after using the trolley myself for a few months that I recognised that many window cleaners could benefit from it. I say many.. not all because it may not suit everyones work. The 1st question I ask anyone enquiring about the trolley is "what kind of workload do you have.. this is closely followed by what vehicle do you use. This gives me a good idea of whether the trolly is the best way forward for them If it isnt I tell them so.
Anyway for me the costs weighed against the benefits of going WFP are very..very negligable. I know what we earn.. and how much it costs in equipment and consumables to earn that. I dont know any other business that offers such a massive return on investment. Of course there is a cost and people should be aware of it.. and there are ongoing ones but again these are nothing really. A few hozelock type connectors/jubilee clips etc in the vehicle will take care of all but the worst problems with WFP very quickly. And.. I dont have any problem at all with the whole 5 mins it takes to get ready for the next days work.
Andrew
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Hi Guy's
Just like to butt in a minute, I decided to go wfp a couple of months ago,and knew I wouldn't be doing it for a few months to come, so I decided to research the systems, including the DIY route, even priniming my customers to see there reactions, now out of over 300 customers I had just one who hmmed and harrred, every other one has been possitive.
Now the reason I jumped in was just to say, Jinky its a great thread, and thanks to all you guy's who have given us your honest views, on the cost of running your systems. There has been a lot of honest answers given by you all, and it is a great help to people like myself looking to change over to wfp.
I must admit nothing printed by you guy's is not going to put anyone of changing over, but it will encourage us.
Once again guy's my thanks goes out to you all for your input. Now I will back out and watch the thread with a different out look. Thanks again.
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Very true Andrew , i had a look at Craig JWC's van the other day , he runs one of your systems which connects to a van mount , he truly has the best of both worlds , he can get anywhere he wants , except into weight watchers of course !
Rich P @F
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And yes, £200 a day is very feasible...but it won't be if you cut your prices because you are faster!!
That is it in a nutshell. It's coming for wfp users but that is how a free market works.
We now charge extra for some ex wfp customers (done wfp by someone else) to have their houses/properties now done trad style.
WFP has many benifits but I never expected that to be one of them. Especially for wealthier customers who have not been happy with wfp.
We do use wfp but the dissatsifaction of wfp by some customers has been a hidden benifit.
I think it will become like any tradesman who uses older methods - worth it's weight in gold to the right people who are prepared to pay for it.
Also, we've been using wfp for almost a year now and the only real cost additional cost so far has been resin. Wfp has earnt us a lot of extra money but has cost under £100 to run in the last year. Pound for pound, wfp is a money earner untill the customer expects a lower cost because the windows are being done wfp.
Cheers
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If only there was a way to work out a cost of a person doing their round trad for one month and then wfp for one month , if i am really honest i cant see much difference , ive had a few so i might be talking bollards , obviously water and resin are the major costs for wfp , but when i was trad the wash machine was on every night along with the tumble drier , then the soap powder the fairy liquid , the rubbers , applicators , damaged channels , it all adds up .
I would say ill give it a go , trad then wfp , but i cant bring myself to do it due to the fact that i would lose too much money !
Off the top of my head i would say my wfp costs in a month were ....
£25 resin
£20 water
I cant really put a price on wear and tear of gear as i have not replaced anything but brush heads in my year so far , they were not needed as it was an upgrade to fan jets .
So thats £45 for wfp .
As for trad in a month ...
£3 soap powder
That leaves £42 , surely the wash machine and tumbler come to that !
Am i talking rubbish , or is this poss ?
Rich P @ F
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So thats £45 for wfp .
As for trad in a month ...
£3 soap powder
That leaves £42 , surely the wash machine and tumbler come to that !
Am i talking rubbish , or is this poss ?
Afraid so Rich. ;D
I have the washing machine on once a week, and sometimes I handwash, so not at all sometimes....
My equipment is £15-20 every 4 months or so.
By the time you average out your bigger bills with wfp, like new brushes, hoses etc....it's probably costing you that a day. :o
Of course, not to mention time lost to breakdowns....
In short, no thanks. ;)
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O.K. Sqeaky , i will put it another way , now that i have a clearer head !
I was pretty slow as a trad cleaner , in fact i went backwards at times , my average daily take was about £70 , £350 a week .
Now wfp , i earn on average £120 , £600 a week .
These figures are based on full days , domestic only .
I am missing the point again i know ::) , but , as you can see i get £250 a week more through wfp , so , who cares if it costs more to run it ?
It does not cost £250 per week to run , so i can fully justify spending that bit more on it .
As for breakdowns stopping play , touch wood i have only had one so far , and that turned out to be a loose connection on my power switch !
If all else fails we can still go up a ladder for a few days .
You would have to be pretty unlucky to have to spend £250 in one week on a breakdown in your system .
In short , wfp costs are higher , but the earnings totally justify this .
I still offer you this free tank Squeaky ....... It'll fit in a cheap escort van ;D
Rich P @ F
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Ultimately it's all about time.
How much is your time (and safety) worth.
I used to take 4 1/2 days a week to do my mainly commercial work. Since the introduction of WFP 5 years ago I now do more work than before in just 2 1/2 days a week.....what's that worth?
As i have been set up a while my monthly average maintenance spend is about £25-30 for WFP. I run a very cheap RO system, so my only costs are prefilters (£5 per month), small amount of resin (£2 month) about 1 new pole every 10 months (£150), a new reel of hose every 2 years (£80), and sometimes the odd connector
The above are my maintenance costs for my current system, they do not include any upgrades.
These are realistic costs and have been ongoing now for several years, but are dependant on getting the right system set up.
Alex
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O.K. Sqeaky , i will put it another way , now that i have a clearer head !
I was pretty slow as a trad cleaner , in fact i went backwards at times , my average daily take was about £70 , £350 a week .
Now wfp , i earn on average £120 , £600 a week .
These figures are based on full days , domestic only .
Ah, I see!
My average is £100-120 now anyway, and I'm cheaper than most and work pretty short hours.
If I wanted to I could do plenty more.
If it's improved your takings though, fair play to you. :)
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£1000 or just below to get started with wfp , carrying a 175 tank , extremely low maintanance as far as im concerned, however i only use it about 16 30 hours per week, its certainly improved my earnings and as for spares
not everything going to break at the same time.
As for big commercial systems i cant comment but for domestic its the dogs b******s , maybe just do the research before you buy for what suits you.
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I went the DIY route and designed my system to suit my round. I have made a few. small changes that cost me nothing apart from time,The pump box and hose reel just lifts off, if I wanted a van mount I would only have to stick a tank on my trailer, everything else to run it, is in the box.
It costs me £1 a day for resin DI only. Although trolley based I hardly ever take it round the back. I just pull the micro bore off the hose reel.
What advantage could I have by having a van mounted system? I can carry 50lts on the trolley if I need to. I seldom have to move the van all day, and if I park it right I can work all day and never be more than a 100 yards from it. 50 lts takes me up to 11 o'clock break time. I go back to the van and change containers. The new containers takes me up to lunch time when I change them again. A quick coffee break at 3.30 and the new containers will then last me out the day. I never use more than 8. If I have a major system breakdown I can use the back pack and my Mrs can trad the bottoms. I only had one since August when the Varistream packed in.
Apart from the initial investment, the costs have been very little in money terms.
However, the costs in time are considerably more. I don't mind the tweaking here and there as WFP has become a bit of a hobby. filling the containers after a hard day, especially in winter can be a pain in the rear.
Yes we do work a lot faster, and earn more, but as others have said the safety aspect is the most important thing. I can't believe how much I now hate using ladders, having been perfectly happy using them for so many years. Dai
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So you see what i mean Squeaky , imagine how much more you could earn in the same time , you wont even have to raise your prices . but then who knows WFP may slow you down , i will stop twisting your arms now , if you do have a change of heart , the tank is here for you bud .
Rich P @ F
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I've gone back through our expenses for equipment for the last 6 months.
As far as I can work out roughly 25% of our work is wfp.
Cost for trad supplies - £241
Cost for wfp stuff - £73
So if in theory each was 100% - £321 compared to £292.
Roughly the same which is a suprise to me also.
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How much?!
Your workers must be pretty rough with thier rubbers and scrims Ross. :o ;D
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This is without a doubt one of the best posts for a while , maybe my beer drinking thinking the other night was not that far out , all people have different running costs , it would interesting to see other peoples figures .
Lets start with Sarah Sarill ;D , OOPS ! , Beer again !
Rich P @ G
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I have been wfp for 6 months, Wow doesnt time fly.
My only regret is, I WISH
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Have to agree the cost of WFP have come down to the point where for me its the same as trad window cleaning, the cost being one part "reasonably practicable" hierarchy of WAHR.
Andy
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Sorry clicked the wrong button.
I wish I had switched to wfp years ago.
My advice to anyone is take your time and research, research. It takes time to get an understanding of all the choices you have in wfp. I researched the subject to death.
I have not wasted any money. I have spent £5,500.00 on wfp stuff, I have 9 poles, Bpack. 40 40 RO system. Van set up for two. I have spares for everything.That does not include the price of the van.
I spend very little time now tweaking the system as it runs perfectly itself.
I dont get as tired at work. I have a shorter working week and I earn more money.
Some might think I have spent to much on my system. But it as paid for itself allready. If I compare the six months of this year wfp to the same period last year when I was Trad I have earned an extra £8000.00.
If I spend £200 a year on maintance, its peanuts compared to the extra you earn.
The really big plus for me, I am so proud of the van set up. It looks fantastic and Makes me feel good about the job I do. I never felt that way when I carried my ladders on the car.
Nel.