Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: John Mart on July 31, 2018, 06:42:45 am
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The new membrane is about a month old. It started producing at 6 from 280 but last night I returned from a night out to find it still running and it's taken 16 hours to produce 1,500 litres and tds is 24. It's the third membrane in two years.
When I changed the last one there was calcium in the housing.
Does anyone have any thoughts?
I'm thinking just scrap it and start again with a new housing?
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Depends on what quality of membrane your using
( i ask this as a guy on eBay is selling membranes £50 less than everyone else but the quality is shocking )
are you using pre filters and changing the carbon on a regular basis ??
Darran
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I think you’ll find the water authority will hav e reduced pressure as well, our water production is slower at present
Darran
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I think you’ll find the water authority will hav e reduced pressure as well, our water production is slower at present
Darran
Although with a pump? Tds up to 24 as well. Don't know the brand but was £200 from Kennet Water. Big water specialist locally.
https://www.kennetwater.co.uk/
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I think you’ll find the water authority will hav e reduced pressure as well, our water production is slower at present
Darran
Although with a pump? Tds up to 24 as well. Don't know the brand but was £200 from Kennet Water. Big water specialist locally.
https://www.kennetwater.co.uk/
have you checked the tds going in?it might have gone up(from 280) hence 024?...just a thought....
what a pain for you.will you put the 024 through resin or use it for cleaning windows at this tds?
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I think you’ll find the water authority will hav e reduced pressure as well, our water production is slower at present
Darran
Although with a pump? Tds up to 24 as well. Don't know the brand but was £200 from Kennet Water. Big water specialist locally.
https://www.kennetwater.co.uk/
have you checked the tds going in?it might have gone up(from 280) hence 024?...just a thought....
what a pain for you.will you put the 024 through resin or use it for cleaning windows at this tds?
287 in. Just got off the phone to Franky. I'm beginning to think the housing faulty.
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You say there’s calcium in the ro housing? How about a water softener?
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Are you putting silicone grease around the seals of membrane before installing??
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Depends on what quality of membrane your using
( i ask this as a guy on eBay is selling membranes £50 less than everyone else but the quality is shocking )
are you using pre filters and changing the carbon on a regular basis ??
Darran
Think i have one..
Been using it 2 months tds has creeped up by 1 tds...I'm using 4-500 litres a day so not bad!
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The consensus is I need a water softener so I’ve ordered one from Daqua.
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The new membrane is about a month old. It started producing at 6 from 280 but last night I returned from a night out to find it still running and it's taken 16 hours to produce 1,500 litres and tds is 24. It's the third membrane in two years.
When I changed the last one there was calcium in the housing.
Does anyone have any thoughts?
I'm thinking just scrap it and start again with a new housing?
You may have biological contamination. Pop out the membrane and feel for any sliminess inside the housing. If there is any, just replacing the membrane won't work; you'll need to replace it and clean out all the bacteria in the system. I went through a handful of 4040 membranes before June at Gaps saved me with this:
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=175665.msg1483617#msg1483617
Good luck,
Vin
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Change filters every week mate.
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The consensus is I need a water softener so I’ve ordered one from Daqua.
doubt it
our water is 320 to 380 - i produce 1500 to 2500 litres a day - an axeon membrane will last a year at 006 before starting to rise when it gets to 012 i replace it - i don't use resin as you go through it so quickly even at 012 its more cost effective to have a new membrane
darran
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The consensus is I need a water softener so I’ve ordered one from Daqua.
doubt it
our water is 320 to 380 - i produce 1500 to 2500 litres a day - an axeon membrane will last a year at 006 before starting to rise when it gets to 012 i replace it - i don't use resin as you go through it so quickly even at 012 its more cost effective to have a new membrane
darran
Hmm, the housing was full of chalk on the last change.
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difficult to know remotely
calcium - chalk - sounds like a pre filter problem to me
Darran
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The new membrane is about a month old. It started producing at 6 from 280 but last night I returned from a night out to find it still running and it's taken 16 hours to produce 1,500 litres and tds is 24. It's the third membrane in two years.
When I changed the last one there was calcium in the housing.
Does anyone have any thoughts?
I'm thinking just scrap it and start again with a new housing?
You may have biological contamination. Pop out the membrane and feel for any sliminess inside the housing. If there is any, just replacing the membrane won't work; you'll need to replace it and clean out all the bacteria in the system. I went through a handful of 4040 membranes before June at Gaps saved me with this:
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=175665.msg1483617#msg1483617
Good luck,
Vin
Thanks for that Vin. If the softener doesn't halt the deterioration I'm just going to bin the lot and start again.
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difficult to know remotely
calcium - chalk - sounds like a pre filter problem to me
Darran
They are new filters and new membrane.
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what filters are they - make ? sediment ?
if the pre filter is poor quality then cr@p will get through
Darran
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The prefilters won’t filter out calcium, a softener is likely to make your membrane last longer but have to weigh up cost of salt against the cost of a new membrane every year .
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The prefilters won’t filter out calcium, a softener is likely to make your membrane last longer but have to weigh up cost of salt against the cost of a new membrane every year .
A membrane every few weeks!
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The prefilters won’t filter out calcium, a softener is likely to make your membrane last longer but have to weigh up cost of salt against the cost of a new membrane every year .
A membrane every few weeks!
Got to be a duff membrane then surely ?
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The prefilters won’t filter out calcium, a softener is likely to make your membrane last longer but have to weigh up cost of salt against the cost of a new membrane every year .
A membrane every few weeks!
Got to be a duff membrane then surely ?
They say that if it was faulty it would be faulty immediately - it's become blocked. With the calcium in the housing I'm not really doubting what I'm being told. The guy seemed incredibly knowledgeable at Kennet Water. Doug at Daqua is of the same opinion.
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You’ve tried flushing the fluck out of it?
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You’ve tried flushing the fluck out of it?
Worth a go Go. ;D
Trying that now.
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Get a pressure pump.
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Get a pressure pump.
Got one. Clarke’s thing
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Your symptoms are exactly what I was suffering when I had the biological contamination problem.
I was going through a membrane every two or three months. Bleaching it utterly fixed the problem - no need to throw away any kit.
Current setup is a DI vessel 2/3 full (don't overfill) of acid washed charcoal as my input filter, followed by a 20" particle filter (to pick up any charcoal washed out of the DI vessel). Clarke pump. HF4 4040, then into twin DIs.
My water ranges from 270-330 TDS or so. The water coming out of my RO is generally 10TDS and the membrane is around five years old. I flush it when I think about it (probably three times a year) for twenty minutes.
Check for slime before you do anything else.
Vin
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Your symptoms are exactly what I was suffering when I had the biological contamination problem.
I was going through a membrane every two or three months. Bleaching it utterly fixed the problem - no need to throw away any kit.
Current setup is a DI vessel 2/3 full (don't overfill) of acid washed charcoal as my input filter, followed by a 20" particle filter (to pick up any charcoal washed out of the DI vessel). Clarke pump. HF4 4040, then into twin DIs.
My water ranges from 270-330 TDS or so. The water coming out of my RO is generally 10TDS and the membrane is around five years old. I flush it when I think about it (probably three times a year) for twenty minutes.
Check for slime before you do anything else.
Vin
I'd be sure you were right if it wasn't for the calcium build up I saw on the last membrane change. I haven't opened again the housing as (believe it or not) I find it a stress in case it doesn't go back correctly. I'll see if it settles with the softener and take it from there.
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Your symptoms are exactly what I was suffering when I had the biological contamination problem.
I was going through a membrane every two or three months. Bleaching it utterly fixed the problem - no need to throw away any kit.
Current setup is a DI vessel 2/3 full (don't overfill) of acid washed charcoal as my input filter, followed by a 20" particle filter (to pick up any charcoal washed out of the DI vessel). Clarke pump. HF4 4040, then into twin DIs.
My water ranges from 270-330 TDS or so. The water coming out of my RO is generally 10TDS and the membrane is around five years old. I flush it when I think about it (probably three times a year) for twenty minutes.
Check for slime before you do anything else.
Vin
I'd be sure you were right if it wasn't for the calcium build up I saw on the last membrane change. I haven't opened again the housing as (believe it or not) I find it a stress in case it doesn't go back correctly. I'll see if it settles with the softener and take it from there.
Funnily enough, Frank said he’d spoken to you about the issue you were having and one of the first things I mentioned was Vin and his Bleaching routine.
In fairness though, Doug at Daqua is the dogs danglies so if he says to try a softener then I’d try a softener!
Surely though the problem with just sticking a softener in front is that the calcium build up that built up from when the softener wasn’t there will still be in the housing, therefore still contaminting the membrane..?
I’d have thought you need to clear all of that first and then stick the softener in front (with possible a new membrane)
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Your symptoms are exactly what I was suffering when I had the biological contamination problem.
I was going through a membrane every two or three months. Bleaching it utterly fixed the problem - no need to throw away any kit.
Current setup is a DI vessel 2/3 full (don't overfill) of acid washed charcoal as my input filter, followed by a 20" particle filter (to pick up any charcoal washed out of the DI vessel). Clarke pump. HF4 4040, then into twin DIs.
My water ranges from 270-330 TDS or so. The water coming out of my RO is generally 10TDS and the membrane is around five years old. I flush it when I think about it (probably three times a year) for twenty minutes.
Check for slime before you do anything else.
Vin
I'd be sure you were right if it wasn't for the calcium build up I saw on the last membrane change. I haven't opened again the housing as (believe it or not) I find it a stress in case it doesn't go back correctly. I'll see if it settles with the softener and take it from there.
Funnily enough, Frank said he’d spoken to you about the issue you were having and one of the first things I mentioned was Vin and his Bleaching routine.
In fairness though, Doug at Daqua is the dogs danglies so if he says to try a softener then I’d try a softener!
Surely though the problem with just sticking a softener in front is that the calcium build up that built up from when the softener wasn’t there will still be in the housing, therefore still contaminting the membrane..?
I’d have thought you need to clear all of that first and then stick the softener in front (with possible a new membrane)
Yes, sort of. I’m going to monitor the TDS and production rate over a couple of weeks and if it doesn’t worsen I’ll assume that I’ve identified the problem and I’ll change the membrane. I don’t want to buy a new one until I’ve identified the issue.
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Interestingly the TDS has dropped to 17 since introducing the softener. I’ve just stuck it on flush for an hour.
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Don’t blame you at all for not wanting to spend on a new membrane after the amount you already have, but you’re missing my point...
You still need to clear all the calcium that is already in the housing, the softener wont get rid of the calcium thats already ‘upstream’ so to speak, it’ll only clear the calcium of the water going in to the membrane.
Therefore the calicum that is already there will surely continue to degrade said membrane (albeit slowly), whether or not there is a softener in front or not...
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Interestingly the TDS has dropped to 17 since introducing the softener. I’ve just stuck it on flush for an hour.
Good news 👍👍👍
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The consensus is I need a water softener so I’ve ordered one from Daqua.
doubt it
our water is 320 to 380 - i produce 1500 to 2500 litres a day - an axeon membrane will last a year at 006 before starting to rise when it gets to 012 i replace it - i don't use resin as you go through it so quickly even at 012 its more cost effective to have a new membrane
darran
You don't use resin? At all?
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Don’t blame you at all for not wanting to spend on a new membrane after the amount you already have, but you’re missing my point...
You still need to clear all the calcium that is already in the housing, the softener wont get rid of the calcium thats already ‘upstream’ so to speak, it’ll only clear the calcium of the water going in to the membrane.
Therefore the calicum that is already there will surely continue to degrade said membrane (albeit slowly), whether or not there is a softener in front or not...
Yes, I get that, but I’m not going to even bother trying to remove the calcium from the membrane and clearing any from the housing won’t make a noticeable difference. I’ll see if it stabilises over a couple of weeks and if so I’ll replace the membrane on the assumption that the new one won’t be ruined as the problem has been identified. There’s no point in opening up the housing twice as the membrane has to be replaced anyway.
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The consensus is I need a water softener so I’ve ordered one from Daqua.
doubt it
our water is 320 to 380 - i produce 1500 to 2500 litres a day - an axeon membrane will last a year at 006 before starting to rise when it gets to 012 i replace it - i don't use resin as you go through it so quickly even at 012 its more cost effective to have a new membrane
darran
You don't use resin? At all?
No theres no need at that low level
Darran
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The prefilters won’t filter out calcium, a softener is likely to make your membrane last longer but have to weigh up cost of salt against the cost of a new membrane every year .
A membrane every few weeks!
Got to be a duff membrane then surely ?
GAPS water also sell them. The specs brag a higher rejection rate than an Axeon membrane. They state its a replacement for an Axeon HF1 membrane. Its also not a membrane listed under their window cleaners section. Axeon and Spectrum are the membranes listed there so I would say that it isn't the right membrane for our needs.
According to Axeon the HF1 membrane needs a much higher water pressure than the HF4 and HF5.
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Don’t blame you at all for not wanting to spend on a new membrane after the amount you already have, but you’re missing my point...
You still need to clear all the calcium that is already in the housing, the softener wont get rid of the calcium thats already ‘upstream’ so to speak, it’ll only clear the calcium of the water going in to the membrane.
Therefore the calicum that is already there will surely continue to degrade said membrane (albeit slowly), whether or not there is a softener in front or not...
Someone once said that fitting a water softener will help remove existing lime scale in the pipe work of a house suffering from this malady.
I have just Googled it.
https://www.harveywatersofteners.co.uk/water-softener/faqs/does-it-take-long-remove-scale-when-you-start-using-softened-water
This could be also just be sales spiel, I don't know. However, what we do know is that the tds of water through a softener doesn't reduce the water tds after it. This page says it does. So in my mind this would make the report on the whole page suspect.
But the person who told me that originally had no reason to hype the results of adding a water softener.
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GAPS water also sell them. The specs brag a higher rejection rate than an Axeon membrane. They state its a replacement for an Axeon HF1 membrane. Its also not a membrane listed under their window cleaners section. Axeon and Spectrum are the membranes listed there so I would say that it isn't the right membrane for our needs.
According to Axeon the HF1 membrane needs a much higher water pressure than the HF4 and HF5.
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You could be on to something there Spruce.
8 weekly hasn't specified exactly which membrane he is using but looking on the supplier website he linked to the PWG membranes look as if they require a higher operating pressure (150 psi)?
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GAPS water also sell them. The specs brag a higher rejection rate than an Axeon membrane. They state its a replacement for an Axeon HF1 membrane. Its also not a membrane listed under their window cleaners section. Axeon and Spectrum are the membranes listed there so I would say that it isn't the right membrane for our needs.
According to Axeon the HF1 membrane needs a much higher water pressure than the HF4 and HF5.
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You could be on to something there Spruce.
8 weekly hasn't specified exactly which membrane he is using but looking on the supplier website he linked to the PWG membranes look as if they require a higher operating pressure (150 psi)?
This may be correct, but to start with it was fine, so I suspect it’s not the cause.
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I said a softener from the beginning.
And people that say that it doesn’t also slightly reduce tds, all I know is if I turn both isolators to the softener off on my static the tds does rise slightly. I had too small a vessel at one time & it was in need of regeneration (backwash) before I’d filled the ibc overnight.
I think soft water is supposed to slowly eat away at calcium deposits. Not if it’s excessive though.
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I said a softener from the beginning.
And people that say that it doesn’t also slightly reduce tds, all I know is if I turn both isolators to the softener off on my static the tds does rise slightly. I had too small a vessel at one time & it was in need of regeneration (backwash) before I’d filled the ibc overnight.
I think soft water is supposed to slowly eat away at calcium deposits. Not if it’s excessive though.
Hopefully that's all it is, but I'm not convinced.
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Still not solved as it’s getting slower. To the point where I’m just going to have to swap the membrane as it’s taken 24 hours to produce 1,000 litres without trying to solve the issue first. I will ofcourse be checking for any “slime” when I open it.
To add regarding the water softener. According to June at Gaps it is not fit for putlrpose as with the volume being produced I’ll need to refresh the resin at least twice during a fill and it’s not an auto flush one. I’ve gone back to the supplier and I’m waiting for a call back.
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I see hf1 was mentioned is that the membrane your using ?
Darran
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I reckon "the incredibly knowledgeable guy" from your local supplier has sold you a membrane not fit for your purpose.
You need an Axeon HF4 from Gaps Water as they seem to be cheaper than other places.
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Still not solved as it’s getting slower. To the point where I’m just going to have to swap the membrane as it’s taken 24 hours to produce 1,000 litres without trying to solve the issue first. I will ofcourse be checking for any “slime” when I open it.
To add regarding the water softener. According to June at Gaps it is not fit for putlrpose as with the volume being produced I’ll need to refresh the resin at least twice during a fill and it’s not an auto flush one. I’ve gone back to the supplier and I’m waiting for a call back.
Last time I'm going to say it but your symptoms are identical to mine when it was bio fouling (it still might not be but looks suspiciously similar) . If it is and you don't deal with it, you're going to repeat this sequence forever replacing membranes ad nauseam.
Total cost of my solution is a 29p bottle of thin bleach the next time you change your membrane. Might not work but it's not going to harm anything.
Vin
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Still not solved as it’s getting slower. To the point where I’m just going to have to swap the membrane as it’s taken 24 hours to produce 1,000 litres without trying to solve the issue first. I will ofcourse be checking for any “slime” when I open it.
To add regarding the water softener. According to June at Gaps it is not fit for putlrpose as with the volume being produced I’ll need to refresh the resin at least twice during a fill and it’s not an auto flush one. I’ve gone back to the supplier and I’m waiting for a call back.
Last time I'm going to say it but your symptoms are identical to mine when it was bio fouling (it still might not be but looks suspiciously similar) . If it is and you don't deal with it, you're going to repeat this sequence forever replacing membranes ad nauseam.
Total cost of my solution is a 29p bottle of thin bleach the next time you change your membrane. Might not work but it's not going to harm anything.
Vin
I’m not ignoring what you’re saying, I will get another membrane on Monday and open up the housing when it arrives. If there’s any slime I will follow your process. ;)
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I reckon "the incredibly knowledgeable guy" from your local supplier has sold you a membrane not fit for your purpose.
You need an Axeon HF4 from Gaps Water as they seem to be cheaper than other places.
It wasn’t the same guy that sold it to me. They’re a large company. But you may be right other than it was fine on install.
The consensus from Gaps and Kennet Water is that if there was a problem with the membrane it wouldn’t work correctly from the outset. Something has therefore caused it to foul hence my trying a water softener before swapping the membrane but the production rate has now dropped to the point that I won’t be able to refill the tanks fast enough for work. I reckon we’re ok until Wednesday as I should have 2,000 litres ready for Tuesday. I’ll see if I can pick one up somewhere on Monday.
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Down to a dribble now. :(
I’ve 2,000 litres. So enough to fill all three after tomorrow’s work.
With hindsight I should have bought the membrane last week. I’m gonna try and pick one up tomorrow. Not sure if Aquafactors in Basingstoke stock them. Otherwise I’m relying on one turning up on Tuesday via courier.
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There’s a spotless in Basingstoke. You need a code to get in though.
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I reckon "the incredibly knowledgeable guy" from your local supplier has sold you a membrane not fit for your purpose.
You need an Axeon HF4 from Gaps Water as they seem to be cheaper than other places.
Thats what Ive got. Works great with the booster.
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There’s a spotless in Basingstoke. You need a code to get in though.
Also, what’s just occurred to me is I have a full bag of resin, I can just double DI 2000 litres if I get stuck.
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Membrane is out. There's no calcium and no sliminess. I can't see any blockages. I'll just have to assume it was the wrong type of membrane.
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I think so hf1 needs twice the psi to work than a hf4
Although I can’t say that would effect production rate it would the TDS over a short time
Darran
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Membrane is out. There's no calcium and no sliminess. I can't see any blockages. I'll just have to assume it was the wrong type of membrane.
Have you managed to buy/order a new membrane yet 8 weekly?
I ordered a new one at the weekend from Gaps Water on next day delivery hoping to receive tomorrow (Tuesday) but June has just emailed me to say the delivery truck didn't show today so will be at least 1 day later than expected.
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Membrane is out. There's no calcium and no sliminess. I can't see any blockages. I'll just have to assume it was the wrong type of membrane.
Have you managed to buy/order a new membrane yet 8 weekly?
I ordered a new one at the weekend from Gaps Water on next day delivery hoping to receive tomorrow (Tuesday) but June has just emailed me to say the delivery truck didn't show today so will be at least 1 day later than expected.
Yes I've ordered one from GAPS too. :'(
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I think so hf1 needs twice the psi to work than a hf4
Although I can’t say that would effect production rate it would the TDS over a short time
Darran
June reckoned the one I bought needed 200PSI.
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Have you managed to buy/order a new membrane yet 8 weekly?
I ordered a new one at the weekend from Gaps Water on next day delivery hoping to receive tomorrow (Tuesday) but June has just emailed me to say the delivery truck didn't show today so will be at least 1 day later than expected.
Yes I've ordered one from GAPS too. :'(
That's alright then.
I thought she might of been telling me porkies and given my one to you. (http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1533569726_grin.gif)