Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Solar Steve on February 05, 2018, 07:30:54 am
-
Hi Everyone.
A new industry takes time to mature. This has especially been true with the solar industry. We say it has been like riding the solarcoaster!
H&S generally has been the subject of a few threads on here recently and there always seems to be a new person wondering whether to clean solar panels. So I thought I'd provide you with an update from inside the industry.
It is now very much awake to the fact that window cleaners with no training should not be cleaning solar panels. The risks are too great. Because of my background in cleaning prior to becoming engaged with solar, two weeks ago I was tasked with collaborating with another company and writing the following:
1. A guide for asset owners as to what they should look for when choosing a solar panel cleaning company.
2. Minimum H&S guidelines for ANY solar panel cleaning company or individual who cleans solar panels. This will be submitted to the UK H&S Executive for review and possible future use and enforcement. This will also be put into the Operations and Management Guidelines Manual for the whole of Europe.
3. A Best Practice Guidelines document which will help both asset owners and panel cleaning companies ensure they are getting and providing the highest levels of service.
None of these documents will allow room for a sole trader or window cleaning company to offer solar panel cleaning as a service without knowledge or training.
Changes are definitely coming and this will be to the benefit of you guys and asset owners. H&S for panel cleaning is currently sitting right at the top of the solar industry's agenda at the moment. Changes of some description may be in place as early as December this year. But solar panel cleaning is not going to be unregulated for too much longer.
-
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1517820462_rolleyes.gif)
-
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1517820462_rolleyes.gif)
yea....
-
Hi Everyone.
A new industry takes time to mature. This has especially been true with the solar industry. We say it has been like riding the solarcoaster!
H&S generally has been the subject of a few threads on here recently and there always seems to be a new person wondering whether to clean solar panels. So I thought I'd provide you with an update from inside the industry.
It is now very much awake to the fact that window cleaners with no training should not be cleaning solar panels. The risks are too great. Because of my background in cleaning prior to becoming engaged with solar, two weeks ago I was tasked with collaborating with another company and writing the following:
1. A guide for asset owners as to what they should look for when choosing a solar panel cleaning company.
2. Minimum H&S guidelines for ANY solar panel cleaning company or individual who cleans solar panels. This will be submitted to the UK H&S Executive for review and possible future use and enforcement. This will also be put into the Operations and Management Guidelines Manual for the whole of Europe.
3. A Best Practice Guidelines document which will help both asset owners and panel cleaning companies ensure they are getting and providing the highest levels of service.
None of these documents will allow room for a sole trader or window cleaning company to offer solar panel cleaning as a service without knowledge or training.
Changes are definitely coming and this will be to the benefit of you guys and asset owners. H&S for panel cleaning is currently sitting right at the top of the solar industry's agenda at the moment. Changes of some description may be in place as early as December this year. But solar panel cleaning is not going to be unregulated for too much longer.
Hi Steve.
So, any chance of a preview of the standards that you and others are trying to get adopted please? The more people providing input, the more likely nothing is missed.
Maybe some of the cleaners in Scotland can call themselves solar panel cleaners and only clean windows as a (99%) sideline :) . A way around licensing, or have the authorities figured that out? :)
-
Hi Steve, As Walter says ... in the interests of safety are you you therefore able to provide some very basic tips for those on this ? For example:
- Does the installation need to be switched off during cleaning?
- Is it better to clean panels on a cloudy day?
- Is there any recommended workwear? I see on another thread you mention rubber boots will do nothing to prevent electrocution. What about rubber gloves?
- Do you have examples of anyone who has been electrocuted whilst solar panel cleaning?
I have an electrician friend who has in the past installed the electrics for many domestic solar panels and he advised the risk of electrecution is virtually nil and that it is not necessary to switch off the inverter whilst cleaning, so I'm interested to hear your viewpoint, advice & tips on this. I have cleaned domestic solar panels for a few of my window cleaning customers without problem. Some H&S tips would be very useful to all of us on here....
-
Nothing new here.
40 years ago the big companies would try to ensure the exclusion of all other competition suppliers by helping the purchaser draw up a spec sheet of the 'necessary' requirements that product had to have. Included in the spec sheet would be a feature that limited other tenders from quoting if their product didn't identically match the spec. It didn't matter if the oposition had a better product or not; it all boiled down to exclusivity.
I have no experience of solar panels linked together on solar farms where panels linked together in series could/would have much higher voltages, but as cookie says, the installation on ordinary household roofs pose little to no threat of electrocution according to fitters and electricians I've spoken to as well.
The risk for us is actually cleaning them imho. Most of us would have to do that off ladders leant against the guttering as most of us don't have 'sky' poles where we can reach them from the ground.
Cleaning panels isn't a service we promote for this reason.
-
Hi Steve, As Walter says ... in the interests of safety are you you therefore able to provide some very basic tips for those on this ? For example:
- Does the installation need to be switched off during cleaning?
- Is it better to clean panels on a cloudy day?
- Is there any recommended workwear? I see on another thread you mention rubber boots will do nothing to prevent electrocution. What about rubber gloves?
- Do you have examples of anyone who has been electrocuted whilst solar panel cleaning?
I have an electrician friend who has in the past installed the electrics for many domestic solar panels and he advised the risk of electrecution is virtually nil and that it is not necessary to switch off the inverter whilst cleaning, so I'm interested to hear your viewpoint, advice & tips on this. I have cleaned domestic solar panels for a few of my window cleaning customers without problem. Some H&S tips would be very useful to all of us on here....
I've never criticized Solar Steve. He is an example of what one can do when finding and exploiting a niche market. He did that when solar was just starting to 'bud' so has developed a good business from that foundation. Hats off to him.
But, if you want to clean panels in the envisaged future, this sounds as though the only way you will be able to do it legally is to at the very least attend his training school and become certified. In future other companies will also offer this certification for a fee.
So I wouldn't hold my breathe getting an answer to your post. If I was in his shoes promoting solar panel cleaning to only be done by a specialised group of trained, certified people, I wouldn't answer this either.
How do you get rid of cowboys in the industry? Simple. Its a similar plan the effects electricians, plumbers, gas fitters, window fitters, etc. You can only have qualified, certified trademen working on your property by law. So if you are a kitchen fitter, you have to call on the expensive services of other trades to complete the job.
-
Hmmmmm....
This comes up regularly and I’m sure at some point H&s will get specific but unlikely to stop any reasonably compentant person working as they do now - most danger comes from the inverter then from any exposed wires sticking out of the array - these are located under the array well away from any location where normal cleaning takes place so electricution is highly unlikely - unless damaged (hit with hammer or similar) while installed it’s so or be quite freaky to find a damaged panel that could expose you to a shock
It’s widely recognised that the most dangerous time to be around a solar panel array is during installation and wiring up in the correct sequence
I’m yet to find any reference to electricution while cleaning - I’d be grateful for any links (not hearsay forum stuff)
Darran
-
Just to add the frame is anodised aluminium which is non conductive so even if the wires were somehow exposed and both touching the frame it can not conduct electricity through water he array
Darran
-
Hi Everyone.
A new industry takes time to mature. This has especially been true with the solar industry. We say it has been like riding the solarcoaster!
H&S generally has been the subject of a few threads on here recently and there always seems to be a new person wondering whether to clean solar panels. So I thought I'd provide you with an update from inside the industry.
It is now very much awake to the fact that window cleaners with no training should not be cleaning solar panels. The risks are too great. Because of my background in cleaning prior to becoming engaged with solar, two weeks ago I was tasked with collaborating with another company and writing the following:
1. A guide for asset owners as to what they should look for when choosing a solar panel cleaning company.
2. Minimum H&S guidelines for ANY solar panel cleaning company or individual who cleans solar panels. This will be submitted to the UK H&S Executive for review and possible future use and enforcement. This will also be put into the Operations and Management Guidelines Manual for the whole of Europe.
3. A Best Practice Guidelines document which will help both asset owners and panel cleaning companies ensure they are getting and providing the highest levels of service.
None of these documents will allow room for a sole trader or window cleaning company to offer solar panel cleaning as a service without knowledge or training.
Changes are definitely coming and this will be to the benefit of you guys and asset owners. H&S for panel cleaning is currently sitting right at the top of the solar industry's agenda at the moment. Changes of some description may be in place as early as December this year. But solar panel cleaning is not going to be unregulated for too much longer.
Can I ask you who tasked you Ste?
-
Carillion
-
Surely chas and safecontracter are enough Steve?
I was thinking of going down the mcs route as a usp but the big players just want a good price with standard pqq stuff. Doing one tonight, what joy.....
-
Hahaha.
-
just a little one today
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1517854006_solar 1.jpg)
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1517854146_solar2.jpg)
Darran
-
just a little one today
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1517854006_solar 1.jpg)
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1517854146_solar2.jpg)
Darran
I was expecting pictures of fried men!
-
Surely chas and safecontracter are enough Steve?
I was thinking of going down the mcs route as a usp but the big players just want a good price with standard pqq stuff. Doing one tonight, what joy.....
So, it wasn't you who was asked to collaborate with Ste. Hmm, who could this other company be?
-
Sorry to disapoint
however they did forget to turn off the sun tracker so half way through it was rotating around towards the sun ;D
Darran
-
Steve,
I will give you a serious bit of advice..knock this on the head now, you ,will be giving away your intellectual rights. If the HSE had a problem they would have been down on the industry like a ton of bricks (I quote the HSE)
You will work your fingers to the bone, it will be adopted as a European standard and you will get ......naffole. They will own the copyright and sell it to every person who wants it. Think I am kidding study BS 14960 and you will find your future. Most major manufacturers are gone and the industry is awash with small manufacturers who have bought the "Standard". We warned them, but they had a similar ego to yours, you've been advised.
-
So Steve if this is such a dangerous job we are still all waiting for you to come up with the details of the person you claimed was electrocuted months ago and suprise suprise you have never responded why’s that then ?.
Again if this is such a dangerous job why do you only pay 16 pence a panel for cleaning it should be considerably more danger money ?
As others have said I was talking to a green gen manager only last week and he said the likely hood of anyone being electrocuted is so small it’s not worth worrying about
These peopke saying these things are industry experts not a window cleaner from Telford
Yes you have done very well for your self but please stop all the scaremainering, you single handedly have destroyed what could have been a nice little job for many people cleaning panels prices are so poor it’s not worth doing them any more unless it’s domestic.
Mechanical tractor cleaners will very soon be doing most of these large sites thank goodness as it’s sole destroying work any way
Good luck with your future involvement in the solar industry I hope you are the only one approved to clean these sites you are very welcome to them all especially down hear as there are 10s of thousands of the things round hear that need doing
-
I think he's gone for another couple of months again. Don't worry he'll be back ;D
Did you say 16p a panel?
-
Even if water was to run from a solar panel to a MPPT, installers who wire them up so there is a run off of any water so it never goes into the mppt and drips/runs off the electrical lead onto the floor unless it was badly set up in the first place. Not only that but some newer mppt's and the wiring to the batteries are fused or recommended to be fused to prevent damage to the batteries or mppt in the first place
-
I think he's gone for another couple of months again. Don't worry he'll be back ;D
Did you say 16p a panel?
Yes 16 pence a panel was what he offered me got to be having a laugh ( that was for solar farms thousands of panels) also travel distance was over 100 miles to some site s waist of time . domestic was £30 fior 16 panels he was charging the customer £60 one of the customers showed the the email from him so I know it’s fact
Why would I clean panels for him on domestic at half the price ? We do thousands of panels a year although Ime cutting back on them as we hate doing them I would happily not do them problem is existing window cleaning cleaning customers want us to do them and it’s difficult to say no , some customers are farmers that have hundreds of them on large building roofs that we do regularly no one who workes for me wants to do them but it’s a nessasary evil any new customers I take on I won’t do there panels and I tell them that , it’s the most demoralising job going , unfortunately where I am there are hundreds of thousands of the things I estimate I get 3 to 5 enquiries per month for quite large jobs just say to busy sorry ,
-
Hi Everyone.
A new industry takes time to mature. This has especially been true with the solar industry. We say it has been like riding the solarcoaster!
H&S generally has been the subject of a few threads on here recently and there always seems to be a new person wondering whether to clean solar panels. So I thought I'd provide you with an update from inside the industry.
It is now very much awake to the fact that window cleaners with no training should not be cleaning solar panels. The risks are too great. Because of my background in cleaning prior to becoming engaged with solar, two weeks ago I was tasked with collaborating with another company and writing the following:
1. A guide for asset owners as to what they should look for when choosing a solar panel cleaning company.
2. Minimum H&S guidelines for ANY solar panel cleaning company or individual who cleans solar panels. This will be submitted to the UK H&S Executive for review and possible future use and enforcement. This will also be put into the Operations and Management Guidelines Manual for the whole of Europe.
3. A Best Practice Guidelines document which will help both asset owners and panel cleaning companies ensure they are getting and providing the highest levels of service.
None of these documents will allow room for a sole trader or window cleaning company to offer solar panel cleaning as a service without knowledge or training.
Changes are definitely coming and this will be to the benefit of you guys and asset owners. H&S for panel cleaning is currently sitting right at the top of the solar industry's agenda at the moment. Changes of some description may be in place as early as December this year. But solar panel cleaning is not going to be unregulated for too much longer.
Hi Steve.
So, any chance of a preview of the standards that you and others are trying to get adopted please? The more people providing input, the more likely nothing is missed.
Maybe some of the cleaners in Scotland can call themselves solar panel cleaners and only clean windows as a (99%) sideline :) . A way around licensing, or have the authorities figured that out? :)
No. There's no chance of a preview.
As for your Scotland illustration, that's not my remit. How it's enforced is not up to me.
-
Hi Steve, As Walter says ... in the interests of safety are you you therefore able to provide some very basic tips for those on this ? For example:
- Does the installation need to be switched off during cleaning?
- Is it better to clean panels on a cloudy day?
- Is there any recommended workwear? I see on another thread you mention rubber boots will do nothing to prevent electrocution. What about rubber gloves?
- Do you have examples of anyone who has been electrocuted whilst solar panel cleaning?
I have an electrician friend who has in the past installed the electrics for many domestic solar panels and he advised the risk of electrecution is virtually nil and that it is not necessary to switch off the inverter whilst cleaning, so I'm interested to hear your viewpoint, advice & tips on this. I have cleaned domestic solar panels for a few of my window cleaning customers without problem. Some H&S tips would be very useful to all of us on here....
I've answered these questions before.
What I'd say about your electrician friend is this:
Who knows more about cleaning windows? The window cleaner or the window fitter?
I know more about cleaning solar panels, not installers. The most respected installers in the UK and international companies who operate here know this. That's why they, collectively, have asked me to compile the information.
-
Hi Steve, As Walter says ... in the interests of safety are you you therefore able to provide some very basic tips for those on this ? For example:
- Does the installation need to be switched off during cleaning?
- Is it better to clean panels on a cloudy day?
- Is there any recommended workwear? I see on another thread you mention rubber boots will do nothing to prevent electrocution. What about rubber gloves?
- Do you have examples of anyone who has been electrocuted whilst solar panel cleaning?
I have an electrician friend who has in the past installed the electrics for many domestic solar panels and he advised the risk of electrecution is virtually nil and that it is not necessary to switch off the inverter whilst cleaning, so I'm interested to hear your viewpoint, advice & tips on this. I have cleaned domestic solar panels for a few of my window cleaning customers without problem. Some H&S tips would be very useful to all of us on here....
I've never criticized Solar Steve. He is an example of what one can do when finding and exploiting a niche market. He did that when solar was just starting to 'bud' so has developed a good business from that foundation. Hats off to him.
But, if you want to clean panels in the envisaged future, this sounds as though the only way you will be able to do it legally is to at the very least attend his training school and become certified. In future other companies will also offer this certification for a fee.
So I wouldn't hold my breathe getting an answer to your post. If I was in his shoes promoting solar panel cleaning to only be done by a specialised group of trained, certified people, I wouldn't answer this either.
How do you get rid of cowboys in the industry? Simple. Its a similar plan the effects electricians, plumbers, gas fitters, window fitters, etc. You can only have qualified, certified trademen working on your property by law. So if you are a kitchen fitter, you have to call on the expensive services of other trades to complete the job.
An insightful man who understands.
-
Hmmmmm....
This comes up regularly and I’m sure at some point H&s will get specific but unlikely to stop any reasonably compentant person working as they do now - most danger comes from the inverter then from any exposed wires sticking out of the array - these are located under the array well away from any location where normal cleaning takes place so electricution is highly unlikely - unless damaged (hit with hammer or similar) while installed it’s so or be quite freaky to find a damaged panel that could expose you to a shock
It’s widely recognised that the most dangerous time to be around a solar panel array is during installation and wiring up in the correct sequence
I’m yet to find any reference to electricution while cleaning - I’d be grateful for any links (not hearsay forum stuff)
Darran
Honestly, EVERYTHING you say above about the technicalities of solar is incorrect. How can the most dangerous time to 'be around a solar panel array' be when it's not even live???
-
Hi Everyone.
A new industry takes time to mature. This has especially been true with the solar industry. We say it has been like riding the solarcoaster!
H&S generally has been the subject of a few threads on here recently and there always seems to be a new person wondering whether to clean solar panels. So I thought I'd provide you with an update from inside the industry.
It is now very much awake to the fact that window cleaners with no training should not be cleaning solar panels. The risks are too great. Because of my background in cleaning prior to becoming engaged with solar, two weeks ago I was tasked with collaborating with another company and writing the following:
1. A guide for asset owners as to what they should look for when choosing a solar panel cleaning company.
2. Minimum H&S guidelines for ANY solar panel cleaning company or individual who cleans solar panels. This will be submitted to the UK H&S Executive for review and possible future use and enforcement. This will also be put into the Operations and Management Guidelines Manual for the whole of Europe.
3. A Best Practice Guidelines document which will help both asset owners and panel cleaning companies ensure they are getting and providing the highest levels of service.
None of these documents will allow room for a sole trader or window cleaning company to offer solar panel cleaning as a service without knowledge or training.
Changes are definitely coming and this will be to the benefit of you guys and asset owners. H&S for panel cleaning is currently sitting right at the top of the solar industry's agenda at the moment. Changes of some description may be in place as early as December this year. But solar panel cleaning is not going to be unregulated for too much longer.
Can I ask you who tasked you Ste?
Yes, but for confidentiality reasons, I can't say. For which I will probably be mocked. But at the moment, I'm not at liberty to say.
What I can say though is that I have referenced this forum on a number of occasions and it is due to the very obvious lack of knowledge, blasé attitude towards solar panel cleaning within the window cleaning community and reports on here of more than one person admitting they have been electrocuted, that has forced the relevant body on which I am a part of, that regulation is now due.
The more that people come on here and spout, the more ammo the organisation has the go to HSE and get solar panel cleaning regulated. This forum proves the problem is pandemic. That's why regulation is needed and I will continue to print threads off here, quote people, show the industry their websites etc and expose the scale of the problem.
-
Surely chas and safecontracter are enough Steve?
I was thinking of going down the mcs route as a usp but the big players just want a good price with standard pqq stuff. Doing one tonight, what joy.....
Hi Og. No, CHAS is not enough. MCS is irrelevant unless you intend to install panels.
-
Steve,
I will give you a serious bit of advice..knock this on the head now, you ,will be giving away your intellectual rights. If the HSE had a problem they would have been down on the industry like a ton of bricks (I quote the HSE)
You will work your fingers to the bone, it will be adopted as a European standard and you will get ......naffole. They will own the copyright and sell it to every person who wants it. Think I am kidding study BS 14960 and you will find your future. Most major manufacturers are gone and the industry is awash with small manufacturers who have bought the "Standard". We warned them, but they had a similar ego to yours, you've been advised.
Hi Nick. Probably the best post on the thread and I do take on board all you've said. You've made some good points.
Giving away our IP is something that me and the other company are aware and concerned about. We are treading very carefully in that regard.
HSE are not aware of the scale of the issue yet. Not even the fire service knows how they are to tackle buildings that are on fire with PV on the roof. This information will be shaped to advise them too.
I'm not interested in making money from this. But I do want the personal satisfaction of knowing that if this gets published and actioned on, that I played my part. It will be a great personal achievement for me. Not many get to help write the regs for a new industry.
I'm not sure what to make of your ego comment, but for me, this isn't about ego. It's about self-accomplishment. Some would say that's the same thing I suppose... :)
-
So Steve if this is such a dangerous job we are still all waiting for you to come up with the details of the person you claimed was electrocuted months ago and suprise suprise you have never responded why’s that then ?.
Again if this is such a dangerous job why do you only pay 16 pence a panel for cleaning it should be considerably more danger money ?
As others have said I was talking to a green gen manager only last week and he said the likely hood of anyone being electrocuted is so small it’s not worth worrying about
These peopke saying these things are industry experts not a window cleaner from Telford
Yes you have done very well for your self but please stop all the scaremainering, you single handedly have destroyed what could have been a nice little job for many people cleaning panels prices are so poor it’s not worth doing them any more unless it’s domestic.
Mechanical tractor cleaners will very soon be doing most of these large sites thank goodness as it’s sole destroying work any way
Good luck with your future involvement in the solar industry I hope you are the only one approved to clean these sites you are very welcome to them all especially down hear as there are 10s of thousands of the things round hear that need doing
1. Search on here. There are at least 3 people who admitted they've been electrocuted when cleaning PV.
2. Cleaning windows can kill you too. You can't ramp up cost based solely on risk. It's not as easy as that.
3. See my other post about who knows most about panel cleaning.
4. I am THE industry expert for solar panel cleaning across Europe. That's why they came to me and the other company isn't it? If there was someone who knew more, they'd have gone to him. But over the last 5 years, I've been brave enough to stand on stages in Telford, Birmingham, London and Milan, in front of hundreds each time, educating the industry about panel cleaning. I've written articles for Europe's leading solar publication about the subject. I continue to research and educate. I have an idea. Why don't you come along to the next meeting we have and explain to everyone why I'm NOT the expert. They'd laugh you out of the room. They know my window cleaning roots and know I own 2 such companies. It's part of what makes me the expert.
5. I haven't destroyed prices. Like any industry, when new players enter the marketplace, the first thing they do to get market share is go in cheap. It's a race to the bottom. It's a race I'm not interested in competing in.
6. You give given yourself away with your 'sole destroying' (sic) comment. Bottom line is that you couldn't stick the jobs we gave you. I'm not sure if that was more mental or physical.
You do have loads down your way. We are down there for a whole month starting March. We will happily clean them. :)
-
THE solar panel cleaning expert ... :P
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1517905461_ao98kqs.gif)
-
Hmmmmm....
This comes up regularly and I’m sure at some point H&s will get specific but unlikely to stop any reasonably compentant person working as they do now - most danger comes from the inverter then from any exposed wires sticking out of the array - these are located under the array well away from any location where normal cleaning takes place so electricution is highly unlikely - unless damaged (hit with hammer or similar) while installed it’s so or be quite freaky to find a damaged panel that could expose you to a shock
It’s widely recognised that the most dangerous time to be around a solar panel array is during installation and wiring up in the correct sequence
I’m yet to find any reference to electricution while cleaning - I’d be grateful for any links (not hearsay forum stuff)
Darran
Honestly, EVERYTHING you say above about the technicalities of solar is incorrect. How can the most dangerous time to 'be around a solar panel array' be when it's not even live???
Now i'm worried !!
an expert that seems to lack knowledge on when the array is 'live' or not - do some more research and you will find that several installer have been shocked because the feed cable was energised without the wires being in the terminals as you should know and is widely published solar panels are live as soon as light hits them - hence turning off an inverter does not cut the power to a panel but where possible its an added precaution
i think its easy to hype this everybody wants to go H&S crazy because its an easy way to cover your ( on site companies ) arse if not making money is the point of this then why do we constantly get the cloak and dagger treatment
i very much doubt any goverment body will pay any attention to a half a dozen shiners on a forum - when we see some 'real' incidents things might change
i put this to you - over the last 9 years i have read about 4 or 5 cleaners who have severe injuries or death using carbon poles and touching overhead cables - so where is the legislation to prevent any untrained person using wfp ?
Darran
-
Interestingly; if you Google "installer shocked by solar panel" there are lots.
If you Google "cleaner shocked by solar panel" you get CIU and Steve's site.
-
Interestingly; if you Google "installer shocked by solar panel" there are lots.
If you Google "cleaner shocked by solar panel" you get CIU and Steve's site.
exactly!!
but the expert has told us all its not live when installing - he is the one lone voice of reason and truth against the world!
Darran
-
Hi Everyone.
A new industry takes time to mature. This has especially been true with the solar industry. We say it has been like riding the solarcoaster!
H&S generally has been the subject of a few threads on here recently and there always seems to be a new person wondering whether to clean solar panels. So I thought I'd provide you with an update from inside the industry.
It is now very much awake to the fact that window cleaners with no training should not be cleaning solar panels. The risks are too great. Because of my background in cleaning prior to becoming engaged with solar, two weeks ago I was tasked with collaborating with another company and writing the following:
1. A guide for asset owners as to what they should look for when choosing a solar panel cleaning company.
2. Minimum H&S guidelines for ANY solar panel cleaning company or individual who cleans solar panels. This will be submitted to the UK H&S Executive for review and possible future use and enforcement. This will also be put into the Operations and Management Guidelines Manual for the whole of Europe.
3. A Best Practice Guidelines document which will help both asset owners and panel cleaning companies ensure they are getting and providing the highest levels of service.
None of these documents will allow room for a sole trader or window cleaning company to offer solar panel cleaning as a service without knowledge or training.
Changes are definitely coming and this will be to the benefit of you guys and asset owners. H&S for panel cleaning is currently sitting right at the top of the solar industry's agenda at the moment. Changes of some description may be in place as early as December this year. But solar panel cleaning is not going to be unregulated for too much longer.
Can I ask you who tasked you Ste?
Yes, but for confidentiality reasons, I can't say. For which I will probably be mocked. But at the moment, I'm not at liberty to say.
So why post about it until it's finalised?
Not mocking you. I take my hat off to someone who's gone out there and put in the effort.
If I came out and said I'd discovered how to reduce window cleaning time by 20%, but it's a secret because I and another unnamed party are going to publish a book about it and you have to buy the book to find out how, I would expect to be (rightly) ridiculed.
But I won't ridicule you or others because it's not my way.
-
At the end of the day chaps, it doesn't matter what health and saftey regulations comes of this or not. Those who don't go with change will loose out. So its worth knowing about it so we can prepare our minds and businesses to move forward with any changes.
It wouldn't surprise me if in 5 years time they will look to regulate the window cleaning industry aswell. So many new window cleaning businesses have started up recently its ridiculous. And the skill levels are shocking. Truly shocking.
-
is this bell end still trying to be the big man know it all ? WHAT A JOCKEY
-
Read what Steve has said carefully and you will realise that the HSE have made no approach at all, it is the solar power industries attempt to set policies in place to wrap up the industry for themselves. You will hear all sorts of reports about what they believe they are achieving and how it will affect you, 99% of it will be internally generated nonsense.
If the HSE had a problem with solar panel cleaning they would have been down on it from the very outset of the installation of these panels, they certainly wouldn't wait years for a self advertised egotist and his followers to sort out a problem that they do not recognise.
At the very best for them they may get their input recognised as a British Standard, there are over 30,000 of them to cover every industry. None of them are law and never will be.
Wait for it to happen, ignore all the interim nonsense and when the Standard is published simply buy it and follow it.
-
Steve,
I will give you a serious bit of advice..knock this on the head now, you ,will be giving away your intellectual rights. If the HSE had a problem they would have been down on the industry like a ton of bricks (I quote the HSE)
You will work your fingers to the bone, it will be adopted as a European standard and you will get ......naffole. They will own the copyright and sell it to every person who wants it. Think I am kidding study BS 14960 and you will find your future. Most major manufacturers are gone and the industry is awash with small manufacturers who have bought the "Standard". We warned them, but they had a similar ego to yours, you've been advised.
Hi Nick. Probably the best post on the thread and I do take on board all you've said. You've made some good points.
Giving away our IP is something that me and the other company are aware and concerned about. We are treading very carefully in that regard.
HSE are not aware of the scale of the issue yet. Not even the fire service knows how they are to tackle buildings that are on fire with PV on the roof. This information will be shaped to advise them too.
I'm not interested in making money from this. But I do want the personal satisfaction of knowing that if this gets published and actioned on, that I played my part. It will be a great personal achievement for me. Not many get to help write the regs for a new industry.
I'm not sure what to make of your ego comment, but for me, this isn't about ego. It's about self-accomplishment. Some would say that's the same thing I suppose... :)
Not Evan the fire service know how to deal with a building fire with panels on the roof , now you are in my territory steve absolute rubbish Ime in the fire service and can assure you we do know how to deal with it and recently had a significant fire in a solar farm with thousands of panels the control system was involved in the fire to the best ok my knowledge this was the first such incident in the country you are making yourself look very foolish I can prove what I’ve said with photographic evidence and the company involved details but will not post on a public forum due to data protection issues but be warned push it and I will name names and expose you for the scaremongara that you are : you take a bit of fact and twist it to suite your own ends , why have you suddenly reappeared on hear to try and further your own course not help anyone on hear , personally I don’t care if it is regulated at some point but it will be a toothless tiger like the use of ladders regulations are no one enforces it untill an accident occurs it’s to late then , are you going to tell us that the hse will be going out with there cameras filming people cleaning solar panels or something?
This haven’t happend with the working at height regulations although some have been fined for unsafe working practises it’s not enforceable may be with huge solar ground mount farms it might come in but we all know very soon these will be cleaned by specialist firms with automated cleaning systems and I am all for it as I personally don’t want to clean thousands of the things by hand , different regulations will be needed to clean them this way as well . If farmer Giles has a few hundred panels on his barns or small ground mount systems or domestic panels there will always be peopke who will clean them or not wether they are certified to do it or not you will never stop that , there will de dozens of companies who will offer the training and you will be at the head of the cue to deliver it you do work hard and know your stuff but there will be lots snapping at your heels who have more resources behind them than you and the monopoly you have at the moment will soon evaporate make the most of it my friend it won’t last
-
At the end of the day chaps, it doesn't matter what health and saftey regulations comes of this or not. Those who don't go with change will loose out. So its worth knowing about it so we can prepare our minds and businesses to move forward with any changes.
It wouldn't surprise me if in 5 years time they will look to regulate the window cleaning industry aswell. So many new window cleaning businesses have started up recently its ridiculous. And the skill levels are shocking. Truly shocking.
Evolution sorts out those whose skill levels are that shocking. They dig their own graves
-
So Steve if this is such a dangerous job we are still all waiting for you to come up with the details of the person you claimed was electrocuted months ago and suprise suprise you have never responded why’s that then ?.
Again if this is such a dangerous job why do you only pay 16 pence a panel for cleaning it should be considerably more danger money ?
As others have said I was talking to a green gen manager only last week and he said the likely hood of anyone being electrocuted is so small it’s not worth worrying about
These peopke saying these things are industry experts not a window cleaner from Telford
Yes you have done very well for your self but please stop all the scaremainering, you single handedly have destroyed what could have been a nice little job for many people cleaning panels prices are so poor it’s not worth doing them any more unless it’s domestic.
Mechanical tractor cleaners will very soon be doing most of these large sites thank goodness as it’s sole destroying work any way
Good luck with your future involvement in the solar industry I hope you are the only one approved to clean these sites you are very welcome to them all especially down hear as there are 10s of thousands of the things round hear that need doing
1. Search on here. There are at least 3 people who admitted they've been electrocuted when cleaning PV.
2. Cleaning windows can kill you too. You can't ramp up cost based solely on risk. It's not as easy as that.
3. See my other post about who knows most about panel cleaning.
4. I am THE industry expert for solar panel cleaning across Europe. That's why they came to me and the other company isn't it? If there was someone who knew more, they'd have gone to him. But over the last 5 years, I've been brave enough to stand on stages in Telford, Birmingham, London and Milan, in front of hundreds each time, educating the industry about panel cleaning. I've written articles for Europe's leading solar publication about the subject. I continue to research and educate. I have an idea. Why don't you come along to the next meeting we have and explain to everyone why I'm NOT the expert. They'd laugh you out of the room. They know my window cleaning roots and know I own 2 such companies. It's part of what makes me the expert.
5. I haven't destroyed prices. Like any industry, when new players enter the marketplace, the first thing they do to get market share is go in cheap. It's a race to the bottom. It's a race I'm not interested in competing in.
6. You give given yourself away with your 'sole destroying' (sic) comment. Bottom line is that you couldn't stick the jobs we gave you. I'm not sure if that was more mental or physical.
You do have loads down your way. We are down there for a whole month starting March. We will happily clean them. :)
No Steve I actually did Sainsbury solindra panels for you 4 hours work for two peole paying £125 not a profitable job is it then there was a further half hour sorting out the paper work with the managers as well as you well know the next site we went to the job couldn’t be done as access was an issue I spent 2 hours the with there managers trying to sort it out WITHOUT EVER BEING PAID ANYTHING AT ALL FOF THAT TIME !!!!! With staff sat in the van paying them by the hour , it was me that declined to do work for you not that I couldn’t handle it either physically or mentally you really are deluded with your own self importance it’s all me me me . Again I can prove what Ime saying with photographic evidence if it’s needed ???
Anyone who does this type of work for that money is never going to run a successful buisness at that price £125 for 4.5 hours work for two people and you think I couldn’t hack it lol !!!!! No I couldn’t I would have gone bankrupt it was sound buisness since why I didn’t do any more work for you . I could go on about the site that you asked me to look at for you to advise if and how it could be done in st Austell if you like again all in my own time and expense so I think you should think very carefully about what you say about me as more revelations can be made public
-
I find this very odd.
I admire Steve, I admire anyone who has built a large, respectable business in a niche market. I am guessing you have worked extremely hard and focussed and sacrificed to get to where you are. Fair play to you. And then to top it off, you have been asked to represent the industry as a whole, to help provide a working foundation for future H&S within the industry.
What I find odd, is people (window cleaners) come on here asking if it is 'safe' to clean solar panels, in the same way they would ask about the correct ladders or safety aids for ladders etc. It's usually at times like this people muck in to give help and advice.
Steve, you obviously know the safe way to clean solar panels, so why can't you offer that advice?
Why can't you just say 'OK guys, to clean a domestic solar panel safely, you need to do XY and Z'
Once regulations are brought in, then fair enough, everyone will abide by them and if they need to, they can go on the courses for best practice. In the short term some window cleaners would benefit from some safety guidance.
Is it irony that you set yourself up as an expert in the field, providing H&S expertise for future working practices and yet you can't even help people on a forum to stay safe when working!
-
So Steve if this is such a dangerous job we are still all waiting for you to come up with the details of the person you claimed was electrocuted months ago and suprise suprise you have never responded why’s that then ?.
Again if this is such a dangerous job why do you only pay 16 pence a panel for cleaning it should be considerably more danger money ?
As others have said I was talking to a green gen manager only last week and he said the likely hood of anyone being electrocuted is so small it’s not worth worrying about
These peopke saying these things are industry experts not a window cleaner from Telford
Yes you have done very well for your self but please stop all the scaremainering, you single handedly have destroyed what could have been a nice little job for many people cleaning panels prices are so poor it’s not worth doing them any more unless it’s domestic.
Mechanical tractor cleaners will very soon be doing most of these large sites thank goodness as it’s sole destroying work any way
Good luck with your future involvement in the solar industry I hope you are the only one approved to clean these sites you are very welcome to them all especially down hear as there are 10s of thousands of the things round hear that need doing
1. Search on here. There are at least 3 people who admitted they've been electrocuted when cleaning PV.
2. Cleaning windows can kill you too. You can't ramp up cost based solely on risk. It's not as easy as that.
3. See my other post about who knows most about panel cleaning.
4. I am THE industry expert for solar panel cleaning across Europe. That's why they came to me and the other company isn't it? If there was someone who knew more, they'd have gone to him. But over the last 5 years, I've been brave enough to stand on stages in Telford, Birmingham, London and Milan, in front of hundreds each time, educating the industry about panel cleaning. I've written articles for Europe's leading solar publication about the subject. I continue to research and educate. I have an idea. Why don't you come along to the next meeting we have and explain to everyone why I'm NOT the expert. They'd laugh you out of the room. They know my window cleaning roots and know I own 2 such companies. It's part of what makes me the expert.
5. I haven't destroyed prices. Like any industry, when new players enter the marketplace, the first thing they do to get market share is go in cheap. It's a race to the bottom. It's a race I'm not interested in competing in.
6. You give given yourself away with your 'sole destroying' (sic) comment. Bottom line is that you couldn't stick the jobs we gave you. I'm not sure if that was more mental or physical.
You do have loads down your way. We are down there for a whole month starting March. We will happily clean them. :)
No Steve I actually did Sainsbury solindra panels for you 4 hours work for two peole paying £125 not a profitable job is it then there was a further half hour sorting out the paper work with the managers as well as you well know the next site we went to the job couldn’t be done as access was an issue I spent 2 hours the with there managers trying to sort it out WITHOUT EVER BEING PAID ANYTHING AT ALL FOF THAT TIME !!!!! With staff sat in the van paying them by the hour , it was me that declined to do work for you not that I couldn’t handle it either physically or mentally you really are deluded with your own self importance it’s all me me me . Again I can prove what Ime saying with photographic evidence if it’s needed ???
Anyone who does this type of work for that money is never going to run a successful buisness at that price £125 for 4.5 hours work for two people and you think I couldn’t hack it lol !!!!! No I couldn’t I would have gone bankrupt it was sound buisness since why I didn’t do any more work for you . I could go on about the site that you asked me to look at for you to advise if and how it could be done in st Austell if you like again all in my own time and expense so I think you should think very carefully about what you say about me as more revelations can be made public
You did better than me as I didn't even receive a response (this was quite a while back). Sounds like I dodged a bullet.
-
So Steve if this is such a dangerous job we are still all waiting for you to come up with the details of the person you claimed was electrocuted months ago and suprise suprise you have never responded why’s that then ?.
Again if this is such a dangerous job why do you only pay 16 pence a panel for cleaning it should be considerably more danger money ?
As others have said I was talking to a green gen manager only last week and he said the likely hood of anyone being electrocuted is so small it’s not worth worrying about
These peopke saying these things are industry experts not a window cleaner from Telford
Yes you have done very well for your self but please stop all the scaremainering, you single handedly have destroyed what could have been a nice little job for many people cleaning panels prices are so poor it’s not worth doing them any more unless it’s domestic.
Mechanical tractor cleaners will very soon be doing most of these large sites thank goodness as it’s sole destroying work any way
Good luck with your future involvement in the solar industry I hope you are the only one approved to clean these sites you are very welcome to them all especially down hear as there are 10s of thousands of the things round hear that need doing
1. Search on here. There are at least 3 people who admitted they've been electrocuted when cleaning PV.
2. Cleaning windows can kill you too. You can't ramp up cost based solely on risk. It's not as easy as that.
3. See my other post about who knows most about panel cleaning.
4. I am THE industry expert for solar panel cleaning across Europe. That's why they came to me and the other company isn't it? If there was someone who knew more, they'd have gone to him. But over the last 5 years, I've been brave enough to stand on stages in Telford, Birmingham, London and Milan, in front of hundreds each time, educating the industry about panel cleaning. I've written articles for Europe's leading solar publication about the subject. I continue to research and educate. I have an idea. Why don't you come along to the next meeting we have and explain to everyone why I'm NOT the expert. They'd laugh you out of the room. They know my window cleaning roots and know I own 2 such companies. It's part of what makes me the expert.
5. I haven't destroyed prices. Like any industry, when new players enter the marketplace, the first thing they do to get market share is go in cheap. It's a race to the bottom. It's a race I'm not interested in competing in.
6. You give given yourself away with your 'sole destroying' (sic) comment. Bottom line is that you couldn't stick the jobs we gave you. I'm not sure if that was more mental or physical.
You do have loads down your way. We are down there for a whole month starting March. We will happily clean them. :)
No Steve I actually did Sainsbury solindra panels for you 4 hours work for two peole paying £125 not a profitable job is it then there was a further half hour sorting out the paper work with the managers as well as you well know the next site we went to the job couldn’t be done as access was an issue I spent 2 hours the with there managers trying to sort it out WITHOUT EVER BEING PAID ANYTHING AT ALL FOF THAT TIME !!!!! With staff sat in the van paying them by the hour , it was me that declined to do work for you not that I couldn’t handle it either physically or mentally you really are deluded with your own self importance it’s all me me me . Again I can prove what Ime saying with photographic evidence if it’s needed ???
Anyone who does this type of work for that money is never going to run a successful buisness at that price £125 for 4.5 hours work for two people and you think I couldn’t hack it lol !!!!! No I couldn’t I would have gone bankrupt it was sound buisness since why I didn’t do any more work for you . I could go on about the site that you asked me to look at for you to advise if and how it could be done in st Austell if you like again all in my own time and expense so I think you should think very carefully about what you say about me as more revelations can be made public
You did better than me as I didn't even receive a response (this was quite a while back). Sounds like I dodged a bullet.
you did he takes 50-150% off the top for himself let alone the poor time he take to pay you for working for him
you get 35 a house he charges 70+vat , the messing about you have to do is unreal most of the time
if you need help on a job your left there stranded as nobody ever answers the phone , the office staff dont know what there doing most of the time we found it a crock of grit from start to finish
-
How does he take 150% off the top..?
-
How does he take 150% off the top..?
I took that to mean that the total job price can be 250% higher than what the subby is paid i.e. that the proportion can be about 4:6 in the more extreme cases (I'm not speaking from experience - just suggesting an interpretation of another's post).
In fairness, it does cost time and money to organise. Also, Solar Steve's VAT cannot be taken into account when calculating this, as that is the government's money. 150% sounds a pretty high mark up though if true.
-
How does he take 150% off the top..?
I took that to mean that the total job price can be 250% higher than what the subby is paid i.e. that the proportion can be about 4:6 in the more extreme cases (I'm not speaking from experience - just suggesting an interpretation of another's post).
In fairness, it does cost time and money to organise. Also, Solar Steve's VAT cannot be taken into account when calculating this, as that is the government's money. 150% sounds a pretty high mark up though if true.
Ah right, fair enough.
I’m by no means a SS fanboy, it does seem a little off to moan about the pay split ratio when most on here want to pay their employees £60-£80 whilst making them clean £250+.
The H&S side of it is just balls to make himself appear industry leading whether to us or these ‘big businesses’.
I don’t let it bother me to be honest, just let the chap talk away; I’ll take notice when the apparent oncoming legislation actually comes into play when we clean the odd small array of solar panels, until then I’ll use a little bit of common sense and the advice from the installer that gives out our details as part of his info pack.
-
How does he take 150% off the top..?
I took that to mean that the total job price can be 250% higher than what the subby is paid i.e. that the proportion can be about 4:6 in the more extreme cases (I'm not speaking from experience - just suggesting an interpretation of another's post).
In fairness, it does cost time and money to organise. Also, Solar Steve's VAT cannot be taken into account when calculating this, as that is the government's money. 150% sounds a pretty high mark up though if true.
he thinks that people dont talk to each other ,heres just one of his jobs .......... so we rocked up and cleaned a job for him where the rate was 190 quid payed to us , we met the top chief on site and carried on ect ect ect
this top chief found it quite funny that a woman was working the picker and telling the lad what to do alday , theres was quite a lot of site banter and he was over the moon with the work and wanted us to clean his house windows ect ect ect ect
7 months down the line our now customer asked what we got payed the clean the panels ? when i told him we got 190 he then went in to the house and got the 550+vat invoice out to show us ! i
so we binned stevs crap work off that very day
-
Now Steve, let's get above all this personal stuff, I have a question for you:
Has the HSE contacted you directly ( name. position. copy of letter) to produce a possible
regularity of the cleaning procedures, document for them?
Please remember, been there, done that!!
Were you to get a law passed with regards to cleaning panels it would mean that the industry would have to inform all future customers on their limitation with regards to the cleaning and therefore the unregulated cost of getting them cleaned. You could even regulate the regularity of the cleans.
Do you really think your "pals" would want this?? Dream on pal....dream on.
-
Hmmmmm....
This comes up regularly and I’m sure at some point H&s will get specific but unlikely to stop any reasonably compentant person working as they do now - most danger comes from the inverter then from any exposed wires sticking out of the array - these are located under the array well away from any location where normal cleaning takes place so electricution is highly unlikely - unless damaged (hit with hammer or similar) while installed it’s so or be quite freaky to find a damaged panel that could expose you to a shock
It’s widely recognised that the most dangerous time to be around a solar panel array is during installation and wiring up in the correct sequence
I’m yet to find any reference to electricution while cleaning - I’d be grateful for any links (not hearsay forum stuff)
Darran
Honestly, EVERYTHING you say above about the technicalities of solar is incorrect. How can the most dangerous time to 'be around a solar panel array' be when it's not even live???
Now i'm worried !!
an expert that seems to lack knowledge on when the array is 'live' or not - do some more research and you will find that several installer have been shocked because the feed cable was energised without the wires being in the terminals as you should know and is widely published solar panels are live as soon as light hits them - hence turning off an inverter does not cut the power to a panel but where possible its an added precaution
i think its easy to hype this everybody wants to go H&S crazy because its an easy way to cover your ( on site companies ) arse if not making money is the point of this then why do we constantly get the cloak and dagger treatment
i very much doubt any goverment body will pay any attention to a half a dozen shiners on a forum - when we see some 'real' incidents things might change
i put this to you - over the last 9 years i have read about 4 or 5 cleaners who have severe injuries or death using carbon poles and touching overhead cables - so where is the legislation to prevent any untrained person using wfp ?
Darran
Hi Darran.
There is of course a time when the panels are made live and the system switched on for the first time. I'd be a dummy to overlook that process. My statement was perhaps overbroad. I was thinking of 95% of the work involved in fitting the brackets to the roof, trailing dead cables to various places, placing of panels into position etc. When it's all linked together though, of course there's electrical risk.
However, if the terminals were all in pace as they should be prior to the main feed cable being linked, then again, there's no risk is there? If people are getting electrocuted, be that cleaning or installing panels, they are not working safely surely?
I will have no control over what happens with the documents when I submit them, but I will write them to the best of my ability and submit them.
-
Yes Don Kee - its not worth moaning about the split or what you got out of the job
you know the price before starting and to do the work must of been happy with that - thats how the game works
for me being offered 26p a panel was no where near what i would expect or be happy with same for £35 for a house array
so a simple NO to the work sufficed.
from my point of view this forum is here to help and offer advice, which where possible i try to do whether people take it or not is another matter and if SS actually discussed the so called 'dangers' im sure he would be admired more for his efforts
Darran
-
Hmmmmm....
This comes up regularly and I’m sure at some point H&s will get specific but unlikely to stop any reasonably compentant person working as they do now - most danger comes from the inverter then from any exposed wires sticking out of the array - these are located under the array well away from any location where normal cleaning takes place so electricution is highly unlikely - unless damaged (hit with hammer or similar) while installed it’s so or be quite freaky to find a damaged panel that could expose you to a shock
It’s widely recognised that the most dangerous time to be around a solar panel array is during installation and wiring up in the correct sequence
I’m yet to find any reference to electricution while cleaning - I’d be grateful for any links (not hearsay forum stuff)
Darran
Honestly, EVERYTHING you say above about the technicalities of solar is incorrect. How can the most dangerous time to 'be around a solar panel array' be when it's not even live???
Now i'm worried !!
an expert that seems to lack knowledge on when the array is 'live' or not - do some more research and you will find that several installer have been shocked because the feed cable was energised without the wires being in the terminals as you should know and is widely published solar panels are live as soon as light hits them - hence turning off an inverter does not cut the power to a panel but where possible its an added precaution
i think its easy to hype this everybody wants to go H&S crazy because its an easy way to cover your ( on site companies ) arse if not making money is the point of this then why do we constantly get the cloak and dagger treatment
i very much doubt any goverment body will pay any attention to a half a dozen shiners on a forum - when we see some 'real' incidents things might change
i put this to you - over the last 9 years i have read about 4 or 5 cleaners who have severe injuries or death using carbon poles and touching overhead cables - so where is the legislation to prevent any untrained person using wfp ?
Darran
Hi Darran.
There is of course a time when the panels are made live and the system switched on for the first time. I'd be a dummy to overlook that process. My statement was perhaps overbroad. I was thinking of 95% of the work involved in fitting the brackets to the roof, trailing dead cables to various places, placing of panels into position etc. When it's all linked together though, of course there's electrical risk.
However, if the terminals were all in pace as they should be prior to the main feed cable being linked, then again, there's no risk is there? If people are getting electrocuted, be that cleaning or installing panels, they are not working safely surely?
I will have no control over what happens with the documents when I submit them, but I will write them to the best of my ability and submit them.
nice dodge Steve - thats almost an admission that you got it wrong ! However i see you have yet to provide a link for severe injury/death by cleaning solar panels
i await your example
Darran
-
Hi Everyone.
A new industry takes time to mature. This has especially been true with the solar industry. We say it has been like riding the solarcoaster!
H&S generally has been the subject of a few threads on here recently and there always seems to be a new person wondering whether to clean solar panels. So I thought I'd provide you with an update from inside the industry.
It is now very much awake to the fact that window cleaners with no training should not be cleaning solar panels. The risks are too great. Because of my background in cleaning prior to becoming engaged with solar, two weeks ago I was tasked with collaborating with another company and writing the following:
1. A guide for asset owners as to what they should look for when choosing a solar panel cleaning company.
2. Minimum H&S guidelines for ANY solar panel cleaning company or individual who cleans solar panels. This will be submitted to the UK H&S Executive for review and possible future use and enforcement. This will also be put into the Operations and Management Guidelines Manual for the whole of Europe.
3. A Best Practice Guidelines document which will help both asset owners and panel cleaning companies ensure they are getting and providing the highest levels of service.
None of these documents will allow room for a sole trader or window cleaning company to offer solar panel cleaning as a service without knowledge or training.
Changes are definitely coming and this will be to the benefit of you guys and asset owners. H&S for panel cleaning is currently sitting right at the top of the solar industry's agenda at the moment. Changes of some description may be in place as early as December this year. But solar panel cleaning is not going to be unregulated for too much longer.
Can I ask you who tasked you Ste?
Yes, but for confidentiality reasons, I can't say. For which I will probably be mocked. But at the moment, I'm not at liberty to say.
So why post about it until it's finalised?
Not mocking you. I take my hat off to someone who's gone out there and put in the effort.
If I came out and said I'd discovered how to reduce window cleaning time by 20%, but it's a secret because I and another unnamed party are going to publish a book about it and you have to buy the book to find out how, I would expect to be (rightly) ridiculed.
But I won't ridicule you or others because it's not my way.
I've said about it because as someone else points out in their reply, it allows people to get a heads up on what's coming and plan accordingly. Some will do what it takes to comply, others will jack it in completely. But the main thing that people say about me on here is that I don't help anyone apart from myself. If that was the case, I'd have kept my trap shut.
I now expect to be ridiculed regardless of what I post on here. I don't mind. :)
-
Yes, but for confidentiality reasons, I can't say. For which I will probably be mocked. But at the moment, I'm not at liberty to say.
What I can say though is that I have referenced this forum on a number of occasions and it is due to the very obvious lack of knowledge, blasé attitude towards solar panel cleaning within the window cleaning community and reports on here of more than one person admitting they have been electrocuted, that has forced the relevant body on which I am a part of, that regulation is now due.
The more that people come on here and spout, the more ammo the organisation has the go to HSE and get solar panel cleaning regulated. This forum proves the problem is pandemic. That's why regulation is needed and I will continue to print threads off here, quote people, show the industry their websites etc and expose the scale of the problem.
Hmmm ... that seems a very contemptuous use of this forum and its members Solar Steve. I believe such a post might even be perceived as a reason for wondering if it is mutually beneficial for you to remain here if that is how you view this community.
But maybe you'd like to explain why that should not be the case?
-
At the end of the day chaps, it doesn't matter what health and saftey regulations comes of this or not. Those who don't go with change will loose out. So its worth knowing about it so we can prepare our minds and businesses to move forward with any changes.
It wouldn't surprise me if in 5 years time they will look to regulate the window cleaning industry aswell. So many new window cleaning businesses have started up recently its ridiculous. And the skill levels are shocking. Truly shocking.
Correct Mark. In 2002 I found out the WAHR were being introduced in 2005, I had a decision to make. I either looked to change my career or adapt to the change. I got my pole system in late 2002 when they were a real rarity.
A heads up can often be helpful.
-
Hi Everyone.
A new industry takes time to mature. This has especially been true with the solar industry. We say it has been like riding the solarcoaster!
H&S generally has been the subject of a few threads on here recently and there always seems to be a new person wondering whether to clean solar panels. So I thought I'd provide you with an update from inside the industry.
It is now very much awake to the fact that window cleaners with no training should not be cleaning solar panels. The risks are too great. Because of my background in cleaning prior to becoming engaged with solar, two weeks ago I was tasked with collaborating with another company and writing the following:
1. A guide for asset owners as to what they should look for when choosing a solar panel cleaning company.
2. Minimum H&S guidelines for ANY solar panel cleaning company or individual who cleans solar panels. This will be submitted to the UK H&S Executive for review and possible future use and enforcement. This will also be put into the Operations and Management Guidelines Manual for the whole of Europe.
3. A Best Practice Guidelines document which will help both asset owners and panel cleaning companies ensure they are getting and providing the highest levels of service.
None of these documents will allow room for a sole trader or window cleaning company to offer solar panel cleaning as a service without knowledge or training.
Changes are definitely coming and this will be to the benefit of you guys and asset owners. H&S for panel cleaning is currently sitting right at the top of the solar industry's agenda at the moment. Changes of some description may be in place as early as December this year. But solar panel cleaning is not going to be unregulated for too much longer.
Can I ask you who tasked you Ste?
Yes, but for confidentiality reasons, I can't say. For which I will probably be mocked. But at the moment, I'm not at liberty to say.
So why post about it until it's finalised?
Not mocking you. I take my hat off to someone who's gone out there and put in the effort.
If I came out and said I'd discovered how to reduce window cleaning time by 20%, but it's a secret because I and another unnamed party are going to publish a book about it and you have to buy the book to find out how, I would expect to be (rightly) ridiculed.
But I won't ridicule you or others because it's not my way.
I've said about it because as someone else points out in their reply, it allows people to get a heads up on what's coming and plan accordingly. Some will do what it takes to comply, others will jack it in completely. But the main thing that people say about me on here is that I don't help anyone apart from myself. If that was the case, I'd have kept my trap shut.
I now expect to be ridiculed regardless of what I post on here. I don't mind. :)
Steve, I appreciate what you are saying but I come back to my previous post...
How can window cleaners on this forum, clean solar panels safely?
Surely, the safety of fellow members on here is of the upmost importance. I personally don't even clean solar panels and I am not fishing for any other information, other than the well being of fellow members. Surely there must me some information you can give us?
-
Steve keeps calling himself the industry expert I have to agree he is , what is an expert ? Answer a drip under pressure 😂😂😂😂 quite apt really
-
I am no expert but i do consider myself to be a competent person . We work on building sites and understand risk assessments and method statements are a part of our working practices . I would not question Steve's knowledge on the solar industry but would question Clean Solar Solutions H & S policy when working at height . Apologies if i am wrong but
Your website video clearly shows men working near the edge of the roof where there is no man safe system installed
At no point that i can see , are your staff attached to any anchor points on the roof
Only one harness is visible and that man is carrying a harness instead of wearing it whilst on the roof ,
No chin straps on helmets when they do fall
At least they have there wellies on so they won't get a shock !
Ed
-
On a serious note Steve with your contacts in the solar industry I think that the designs of a solar panel is fundamentally floored shortly the panel could be made in a way that the panel it’s self can be turned off to prevent it producing electricity , there is currently no way of turning the panel off it is only possible to do this to prevent the electricity at the inverter which is quite often in the kitchen or garage quite a distance from the panels themselves and this leaves a lot of live cables between the panels and inverter if you get what I mean this is a genuine question and one that we are experiencing more and more with house fires and fires in industrial buildings I feel that the hse or building regs should implement change as this is a dangerous practice that needs addressing can you or your contacts do something about this as Ime sure manufactures could easily over come this issue
-
On a serious note Steve with your contacts in the solar industry I think that the designs of a solar panel is fundamentally floored shortly the panel could be made in a way that the panel it’s self can be turned off to prevent it producing electricity , there is currently no way of turning the panel off it is only possible to do this to prevent the electricity at the inverter which is quite often in the kitchen or garage quite a distance from the panels themselves and this leaves a lot of live cables between the panels and inverter if you get what I mean this is a genuine question and one that we are experiencing more and more with house fires and fires in industrial buildings I feel that the hse or building regs should implement change as this is a dangerous practice that needs addressing can you or your contacts do something about this as Ime sure manufactures could easily over come this issue
Only way i can think of a solar panel being safely switched off, is by having a blinding device over the surface much like a bathroom blind which blocks the sun.
This idea was thought of by Mr Marc Stock, under Bramar Ltd. 06/02/2018 21:12- if anyone wants to use my idea this is on a public record forum that royalties should be made to Bramar Ltd
-
On a serious note Steve with your contacts in the solar industry I think that the designs of a solar panel is fundamentally floored shortly the panel could be made in a way that the panel it’s self can be turned off to prevent it producing electricity , there is currently no way of turning the panel off it is only possible to do this to prevent the electricity at the inverter which is quite often in the kitchen or garage quite a distance from the panels themselves and this leaves a lot of live cables between the panels and inverter if you get what I mean this is a genuine question and one that we are experiencing more and more with house fires and fires in industrial buildings I feel that the hse or building regs should implement change as this is a dangerous practice that needs addressing can you or your contacts do something about this as Ime sure manufactures could easily over come this issue
Only way i can think of a solar panel being safely switched off, is by having a blinding device over the surface much like a bathroom blind which blocks the sun.
This idea was thought of by Mr Marc Stock, under Bramar Ltd. 06/02/2018 21:12- if anyone wants to use my idea this is on a public record forum that royalties should be made to Bramar Ltd
Lol Ime not an invented just a simple window cleaner but shorly there must be a way to stop a panel producing power by a switch or something tests have proved that covering a panel will not nessasarily prevent all power production I have been involved with this discussion with several managers at green gen they are the major player where I am we have been trying to come up with a solution to 100% guarantee the panels are dead and cannot produce power , I am very surprised that the solar industry has got as far as it has with out this issue not being sorted out it would be a bit like buying a new car and once you start the engine there’s no way to turn it off : from the descutions that we have had at quite senior levels everyone hums and hars and cannot come up with an answer that they will put in writing they will say stuff but won’t commit to putting it into a hse policy , the fire service have been trying to get a definitive answer from the industry and they haven’t been very forthcoming to say the least Shorly before these panels were ever allowed to be installed this issue should have been sorted out
-
How does he take 150% off the top..?
I took that to mean that the total job price can be 250% higher than what the subby is paid i.e. that the proportion can be about 4:6 in the more extreme cases (I'm not speaking from experience - just suggesting an interpretation of another's post).
In fairness, it does cost time and money to organise. Also, Solar Steve's VAT cannot be taken into account when calculating this, as that is the government's money. 150% sounds a pretty high mark up though if true.
7 months down the line our now customer asked what we got payed the clean the panels ? when i told him we got 190 he then went in to the house and got the 550+vat invoice out to show us ! i
Then that's actually more than 150% on top.
Ignoring VAT as that isn't his money:
£190 as against £550
190 + 190 + 170
170/190=0.89 (roughly) so it's about 189% on top.
Looked at another way: 190/550 = 0.345, so you got about 34.5% of the money. I think we all accept that getting the work and distributing it costs money and that there are fixed business costs too. Then there is a profit to be made. I won't pretend to have a clue how much that comes to, but the mark up does sound like what you'd expect if you were on PAYE with rights to holiday pay etc. and the employer paying the running costs of equipment. It does sound a lot but possibly not as high as it might first appear.
-
At the end of the day chaps, it doesn't matter what health and saftey regulations comes of this or not. Those who don't go with change will loose out. So its worth knowing about it so we can prepare our minds and businesses to move forward with any changes.
It wouldn't surprise me if in 5 years time they will look to regulate the window cleaning industry aswell. So many new window cleaning businesses have started up recently its ridiculous. And the skill levels are shocking. Truly shocking.
Evolution sorts out those whose skill levels are that shocking. They dig their own graves
....... or go into solar panel cleaning.
-
HSE won't do diddly squat until there are accidents, serious accidents. Even then operators are already liable under existing h&s legislation.
-
How does he take 150% off the top..?
I took that to mean that the total job price can be 250% higher than what the subby is paid i.e. that the proportion can be about 4:6 in the more extreme cases (I'm not speaking from experience - just suggesting an interpretation of another's post).
In fairness, it does cost time and money to organise. Also, Solar Steve's VAT cannot be taken into account when calculating this, as that is the government's money. 150% sounds a pretty high mark up though if true.
Ah right, fair enough.
I’m by no means a SS fanboy, it does seem a little off to moan about the pay split ratio when most on here want to pay their employees £60-£80 whilst making them clean £250+.
The H&S side of it is just balls to make himself appear industry leading whether to us or these ‘big businesses’.
I don’t let it bother me to be honest, just let the chap talk away; I’ll take notice when the apparent oncoming legislation actually comes into play when we clean the odd small array of solar panels, until then I’ll use a little bit of common sense and the advice from the installer that gives out our details as part of his info pack.
What a strange thing to say. Firstly an employer has all sorts of overheads that SS won’t have on his subbies and secondly to be profitable 3 x salary earned every day is just about spot on.
-
I find this very odd.
I admire Steve, I admire anyone who has built a large, respectable business in a niche market. I am guessing you have worked extremely hard and focussed and sacrificed to get to where you are. Fair play to you. And then to top it off, you have been asked to represent the industry as a whole, to help provide a working foundation for future H&S within the industry.
What I find odd, is people (window cleaners) come on here asking if it is 'safe' to clean solar panels, in the same way they would ask about the correct ladders or safety aids for ladders etc. It's usually at times like this people muck in to give help and advice.
Steve, you obviously know the safe way to clean solar panels, so why can't you offer that advice?
Why can't you just say 'OK guys, to clean a domestic solar panel safely, you need to do XY and Z'
Once regulations are brought in, then fair enough, everyone will abide by them and if they need to, they can go on the courses for best practice. In the short term some window cleaners would benefit from some safety guidance.
Is it irony that you set yourself up as an expert in the field, providing H&S expertise for future working practices and yet you can't even help people on a forum to stay safe when working!
He would never give any advice to anyone without them paying first.
This is all about money and nout to do with peoples safety. Shows how much he really cares about H&S. If he cared about people’s well being he would inform as many people as possible about how to clean panels safely.
To me that proves he’s a nasty piece of work, willing to let others ‘die’ from lack of knowledge, whilst withholding the very knowledge that could have saved their lives.
BUT! You have nothing to worry about, ive spoken to several installers and they all recommend cleaning them as normal (same as window cleaning)
It’s all money, all Steve’s after is money, and he’ll use any scaremainering to increase his profit and business.
Everyone carry on as normal, you will not die from cleaning solar panels!
-
This has nothing to do with the well being and safety of others its the same as the window cleaning licence in Scotland, guys who had reached a certain level of success wanting to make it harder for others to start up and compete.
-
Thanks for the info Steve.
-
This has nothing to do with the well being and safety of others its the same as the window cleaning licence in Scotland, guys who had reached a certain level of success wanting to make it harder for others to start up and compete.
Harder to compete?
Paying £81 for a three year licence and showing your public liability insurance to the council is hardly difficult.
-
Thanks for the info Steve.
Which info is that? As far as I'm aware, he's given none.
-
Thanks for the info Steve.
Which info is that? As far as I'm aware, he's given none.
i think mick was being sarcastic...although its doesnt come through that well on an internet post!! ;D
-
This has nothing to do with the well being and safety of others its the same as the window cleaning licence in Scotland, guys who had reached a certain level of success wanting to make it harder for others to start up and compete.
Harder to compete?
Paying £81 for a three year licence and showing your public liability insurance to the council is hardly difficult.
Isn't that £81 per town though? I would have to fork out about a grand if that's the case.
-
I've got an aluminium tower scaffold which I'd ring bolt to the house then could I not just wfp the solar panels as I would windows.
Btw I'm a total novice just starting out so I'm here picking brains in all honesty
-
This has nothing to do with the well being and safety of others its the same as the window cleaning licence in Scotland, guys who had reached a certain level of success wanting to make it harder for others to start up and compete.
I think it was more to do with folk walking into gardens with a ladder with the view to breaking in. Not all areas require a license and it's around £140 for three years per council area. There's around 15 licensed window cleaners for the East Dunbartonshire area which only applies to Milngavie and Bearsden with the other areas within East Dunbartonshire exempt. So to give you an idea of how many people that's affected there's around 15 people carrying out window cleaning within a stones throw from where I stay alone!
-
This has nothing to do with the well being and safety of others its the same as the window cleaning licence in Scotland, guys who had reached a certain level of success wanting to make it harder for others to start up and compete.
Harder to compete?
Paying £81 for a three year licence and showing your public liability insurance to the council is hardly difficult.
Isn't that £81 per town though? I would have to fork out about a grand if that's the case.
Per council region.
-
Yes, but for confidentiality reasons, I can't say. For which I will probably be mocked. But at the moment, I'm not at liberty to say.
What I can say though is that I have referenced this forum on a number of occasions and it is due to the very obvious lack of knowledge, blasé attitude towards solar panel cleaning within the window cleaning community and reports on here of more than one person admitting they have been electrocuted, that has forced the relevant body on which I am a part of, that regulation is now due.
The more that people come on here and spout, the more ammo the organisation has the go to HSE and get solar panel cleaning regulated. This forum proves the problem is pandemic. That's why regulation is needed and I will continue to print threads off here, quote people, show the industry their websites etc and expose the scale of the problem.
Hmmm ... that seems a very contemptuous use of this forum and its members Solar Steve. I believe such a post might even be perceived as a reason for wondering if it is mutually beneficial for you to remain here if that is how you view this community.
But maybe you'd like to explain why that should not be the case?
Well you had your chance ...