Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Perfect Windows on January 17, 2018, 07:11:00 pm
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Dead simple:
1. Fraudster gets into your customer’s bank account
2. They make a large payment from the customer’s account to you, say £1800 instead of the usual £18.00 (easy mistake)
3. They phone you up and tell you about the mistake ("ho, ho, ho, what an idiot I am") and give their bank account details
4. You check with the bank, see the money has arrived from your customer and so you pay the money back (actually into the fraudster’s account)
5. Customer realises that the money’s been taken illegally and their bank gets the money back off you
6. You have no comeback as you chose to send the money to the fraudster’s account so it’s a valid transaction – you won’t get a refund
We dodged a £1,700 bullet yesterday at the end of stage 3 because something didn't seem quite right.
Be sure to speak to the customer (on a number you have for them, not one they give you when they contact you about the "overpayment"). If necessary, go and see them face-to-face.
Be careful.
Vin
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Wow!
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Flip me thats a good reason to push direct debits and card payments isnt it
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doesnt make sense
if a fraudster sends money from a customers account to yours and you send it back to that same account how does the fraudster get the money?
explain
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doesnt make sense
if a fraudster sends money from a customers account to yours and you send it back to that same account how does the fraudster get the money?
explain
Sorry, should have been clearer. When they call they give you the bank account details for the refund, it's not the customers account, it's the fraudsters.
Depending where you bank it can be quite hard to see the account a payment has arrived from. Also they rely on you trusting them.
Vin
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doesnt make sense
if a fraudster sends money from a customers account to yours and you send it back to that same account how does the fraudster get the money?
explain
Sorry, should have been clearer. When they call they give you the bank account details for the refund, it's not the customers account, it's the fraudsters.
Depending where you bank it can be quite hard to see the account a payment has arrived from. Also they rely on you trusting them.
Vin
Oh ok, although you would have to be very very silly to send it to another account number than where it was received from.
But no doubt someone will fall for it
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Oh ok, although you would have to be very very silly to send it to another account number than where it was received from.
But no doubt someone will fall for it
As I said, depending where you bank, it can be very hard to find out the customer's account number. With our bank you really have to know where to look and you have to do a bit of decoding of the information; it doesn't appear on statements or on transaction checks online. If you didn't know where to look you might well have to rely on the customer (or in this case fraudster) telling you their details.
Vin
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Oh ok, although you would have to be very very silly to send it to another account number than where it was received from.
But no doubt someone will fall for it
As I said, depending where you bank, it can be very hard to find out the customer's account number. With our bank you really have to know where to look and you have to do a bit of decoding of the information; it doesn't appear on statements or on transaction checks online. If you didn't know where to look you might well have to rely on the customer (or in this case fraudster) telling you their details.
Vin
You are right Vin. We just get a customer's name and address as a reference. We won't know their banking details. If someone gives you their details you have no way of knowing if its not right.
Its down to trust.
As you say, phone them on the number they gave you. If you don't have a number, then drive around to speak to them face to face.
Thanks for sharing Vin and glad you didn't get scammed.
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Oh ok, although you would have to be very very silly to send it to another account number than where it was received from.
But no doubt someone will fall for it
As I said, depending where you bank, it can be very hard to find out the customer's account number. With our bank you really have to know where to look and you have to do a bit of decoding of the information; it doesn't appear on statements or on transaction checks online. If you didn't know where to look you might well have to rely on the customer (or in this case fraudster) telling you their details.
Vin
Yes i understand that, it can be difficult and like i said someone a bit more naive could be drawn into this deception.
But i`ll stand by my statement, you would have to be very silly to refund a substantial amount to an account number given over the phone without double and triple checking where exactly its come from.
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Just received this text
Removed!
Oops! Genuine inquiry.
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Roofs are all covered in snow up here!
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Oh ok, although you would have to be very very silly to send it to another account number than where it was received from.
But no doubt someone will fall for it
As I said, depending where you bank, it can be very hard to find out the customer's account number. With our bank you really have to know where to look and you have to do a bit of decoding of the information; it doesn't appear on statements or on transaction checks online. If you didn't know where to look you might well have to rely on the customer (or in this case fraudster) telling you their details.
Vin
Yes i understand that, it can be difficult and like i said someone a bit more naive could be drawn into this deception.
But i`ll stand by my statement, you would have to be very silly to refund a substantial amount to an account number given over the phone without double and triple checking where exactly its come from.
How exactly would you double check a customers bank details?
You have no way of finding out unless you have a contact number for them, or go round to their property.
Bank statements or online don’t show the account details of the senders bank.
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Oh ok, although you would have to be very very silly to send it to another account number than where it was received from.
But no doubt someone will fall for it
As I said, depending where you bank, it can be very hard to find out the customer's account number. With our bank you really have to know where to look and you have to do a bit of decoding of the information; it doesn't appear on statements or on transaction checks online. If you didn't know where to look you might well have to rely on the customer (or in this case fraudster) telling you their details.
Vin
Yes i understand that, it can be difficult and like i said someone a bit more naive could be drawn into this deception.
But i`ll stand by my statement, you would have to be very silly to refund a substantial amount to an account number given over the phone without double and triple checking where exactly its come from.
How exactly would you double check a customers bank details?
You have no way of finding out unless you have a contact number for them, or go round to their property.
Bank statements or online don’t show the account details of the senders bank.
Santander doesn't show the sender's sort code and account number, but Co-op Bank does. The only exceptions I'm aware of with Co-op is if the money comes from IF Bank.
Although I'm pretty scam savvy, this is one that might have got away if I weren't paying attention. I doubt that I would have fallen for it, but some scammers are very convincing. The scammer would need to be able to link the BACS setup with your phone number. If the outgoing reference is a company or personal name, rather than "Window Cleaner", this could be done as businesses tend not to be ex-directory. I am aware of an equivalent fraud with cheque overpayments - usually for items on ebay.
It's notable that banks invest a lot in fraud prevention where they are obliged to repay, but are less diligent when they don't. If they were held liable for incorrect BACS payments, you can bet that things would start changing very quickly.
A side note: One of my customers works in fraud prevention for the banking sector. When I gave him my bank details he was fine. However, I also give a reference based on his door number/house name + sort code (this is how I have them set up references). He said he wouldn't use that part as it could give a fraudster a second piece of information (in addition to his name). So we agreed on him using a specific, meaningless word in the reference. No problem. At least I know where it comes from. Here's the rub though. He doesn't trust everyone who works within the banking system. This is a guy who investigates banking fraud so I assume that his misgivings have a sound basis.
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Roofs are all covered in snow up here!
The one's in Nigeria won't be though!
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Resurrecting this old thread as a pal of mine who is a builder was hit over Christmas by someone trying this trick on him. It failed, but it's worth a reminder, IMO.
Be careful. If someone wants money sent back (even if it's cleared in your account) be very wary.
Vin
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Resurrecting this old thread as a pal of mine who is a builder was hit by someone trying this trick on him. It failed, but it's worth a reminder, IMO.
Be careful. If someone wants money sent back (even if it's cleared in your account) be very wary.
Vin
I fell for it a couple of years ago, £4800. It was actually an ex customers account that had been hacked, I hadn’t cleaned their property for about a year ( I suppose they do this as there is less chance of you still having contact details of the victim ) I was caught out at the perfect time, I had been in my bed for 2 days with the flu. On top of this a genuine mistake was made by a customer about 6 months previous, I was paid £1200 into my account, this customer stayed nearby so I went to notify them of the payment, turns out they paid me instead of a window company who had replaced a couple of windows and installed french doors at their property, so that money was returned to them and I made a note of it when I handed my books into my accountant.
I was told by the fraud team that the money does actually go into your account from the hacked account, the fraudsters use this method to make it harder for the fraud team to trace the money as the stolen money then goes through multiple accounts.
You don’t lose any money personally....but you are left feeling guilty....and stupid.
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Resurrecting this old thread as a pal of mine who is a builder was hit by someone trying this trick on him. It failed, but it's worth a reminder, IMO.
Be careful. If someone wants money sent back (even if it's cleared in your account) be very wary.
Vin
I fell for it a couple of years ago, £4800. It was actually an ex customers account that had been hacked, I hadn’t cleaned their property for about a year ( I suppose they do this as there is less chance of you still having contact details of the victim ) I was caught out at the perfect time, I had been in my bed for 2 days with the flu. On top of this a genuine mistake was made by a customer about 6 months previous, I was paid £1200 into my account, this customer stayed nearby so I went to notify them of the payment, turns out they paid me instead of a window company who had replaced a couple of windows and installed french doors at their property, so that money was returned to them and I made a note of it when I handed my books into my accountant.
I was told by the fraud team that the money does actually go into your account from the hacked account, the fraudsters use this method to make it harder for the fraud team to trace the money as the stolen money then goes through multiple accounts.
You don’t lose any money personally....but you are left feeling guilty....and stupid.
I think this is the problem. If you're distracted, whether through illness or being busy or the kids being in the house or your wife nagging you, etc, it's easy to fall for this kind of thing. Sounds like you got your money back, at least.
Vin
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This exact thing happened to my mate about 6 months ago. They rang up and told him about the overpayment and asked for a payback. He knew his customer and that was not the customers voice so he said i will call round and see you. He went round and the guy was confused (as you'd expect) so off he went to the customers bank with him to explain what has happened. My mate had transferred no money back at this point but his own bank account was frozen whilst the fraud team looked into it. All ended well, but if he had of made the refund quick he'd of lost out big time. It was £12k.
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This exact thing happened to my mate about 6 months ago. They rang up and told him about the overpayment and asked for a payback. He knew his customer and that was not the customers voice so he said i will call round and see you. He went round and the guy was confused (as you'd expect) so off he went to the customers bank with him to explain what has happened. My mate had transferred no money back at this point but his own bank account was frozen whilst the fraud team looked into it. All ended well, but if he had of made the refund quick he'd of lost out big time. It was £12k.
Your mate wouldn’t have lost a penny, it would be the customer who’s account had been hacked that would lose the money.
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This exact thing happened to my mate about 6 months ago. They rang up and told him about the overpayment and asked for a payback. He knew his customer and that was not the customers voice so he said i will call round and see you. He went round and the guy was confused (as you'd expect) so off he went to the customers bank with him to explain what has happened. My mate had transferred no money back at this point but his own bank account was frozen whilst the fraud team looked into it. All ended well, but if he had of made the refund quick he'd of lost out big time. It was £12k.
Your mate wouldn’t have lost a penny, it would be the customer who’s account had been hacked that would lose the money.
Unfortunately not always.
The bank claims the customers money back off you, you then do the same and try to claim the money back that you transferred, only To be told by your bank it’s a fraudulent account and is probably closed down.
Scammers.
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Your mate wouldn’t have lost a penny, it would be the customer who’s account had been hacked that would lose the money.
Not what our bank said to us.
Customer's money has been transferred to you fraudulently so it is returned to the customer.
You have chosen to send money to an account that's now been closed. You fund the loss.
Your bank may be different but that's how ours would have seen it.
Vin
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Your mate wouldn’t have lost a penny, it would be the customer who’s account had been hacked that would lose the money.
Not what our bank said to us.
Customer's money has been transferred to you fraudulently so it is returned to the customer.
You have chosen to send money to an account that's now been closed. You fund the loss.
Your bank may be different but that's how ours would have seen it.
Vin
My bank must be different then because they didn’t ask for or claim anything from me.
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yeeeeeeah , I think Ill arrange a cheque for the refund, buy me some time lol