Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Stoots on January 05, 2018, 04:42:17 pm
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Nope not a trouser episode, ;D
Back in September i sent a £12 debt to the small claims court. (it cost £25 to file the claim so total claim £37)
Ive just received back today the customers response, he is defending the claim!
I really hoped it wouldnt go this far, that he would do the right thing and cough up, but it seems he is a nob
Ive filed 2-3 claims before and been paid out, so wasnt expecting a challenge
Very annoyed i was at this, but now i see it as a challenge, bit of entertainment and a battle of nerve and wits :D
I have 3 weeks to decide to pursue it through court or drop it. i know really i should drop it, quit whilst im ahead and move on with my life, its not worth it right?,..only theres a principle at play here, ive done nothing wrong at all and the money is owed.
Basically, he messaged me around feburary last year and we agreed a 4 weekly clean (i will add our entire corespondance is through facebook messenger so i have all the evidence.
march, april, may were all cleaned, i messaged him ahead on all months and money left out or he paid online.
messaged for june, no response, no biggie went and cleaned and posted a note.
next couple of months i sent 2-3 messages for payment to no reply. so eventually sent a letter in the most, well worded asking for payment within 14 days or would send to small claims.
a week or so later, recieved a message, sorry been away, ill send payment
2 days after no payment but another messages, calling me names and saying hes got my pooey letter
i replied in nit the nicest way, bit of abuse (he started it, i couldnt resist)
we went back on forth he said he was on holiday, i said well how was i to know etc etc and to just pay and that would be that, he said he would pay and that i was a lot of names etc and thats how it was left.
few weeks when by and no payment so i filed the claim
and here we are, he has disputed it with a few reasons.
1/ we dont have a written contract and that i was tresspassing on his property as he did not agree to me being on his property that day
2/ he returned home 2 weeks after i cleaned and doesnt think that i did a good job
3/ his daughter was in all week and did not see me so doesnt believe i turned up and i didnt leave an invoice (i did)
my argument is we agreed a 4 weekly clean, that we did have a contract (via messenger to a 4 weekly clean) and that i carried out that agreement on the day after i had informed him i was coming. Also that because his daughter did not see me does not mean i wasnt there and that i did indeed leave a note. also he also agreed to send the payment but has since changed his mind and wont send it.
I believe i will win in court, but there is slight doubt in my mind as i can not actually prove i was on his property cleaning on the alleged day.
ap[parently its all down to what the judge believes to be the most likley scenario
good fun eh
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pursue
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I admire your tenacity, but I would have just not cleaned his windows again and moved on.
That's not to say I would write off the debt. I wouldn't. But I would wait until asked to do the windows again (could be years later) and then insist on payment in full plus the requested clean being in my hands before starting work.
I have a small number of similar cases. It's like cat and mouse, but I have one that I allowed to go too far, but I am bit by bit getting my money back, plus the custoner has learned not to mess me about now and pays promptly.
Hope you are successful.
John
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Drop it and move on
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Nope not a trouser episode, ;D
Back in September i sent a £12 debt to the small claims court. (it cost £25 to file the claim so total claim £37)
Ive just received back today the customers response, he is defending the claim!
I really hoped it wouldnt go this far, that he would do the right thing and cough up, but it seems he is a nob
Ive filed 2-3 claims before and been paid out, so wasnt expecting a challenge
Very annoyed i was at this, but now i see it as a challenge, bit of entertainment and a battle of nerve and wits :D
I have 3 weeks to decide to pursue it through court or drop it. i know really i should drop it, quit whilst im ahead and move on with my life, its not worth it right?,..only theres a principle at play here, ive done nothing wrong at all and the money is owed.
Basically, he messaged me around feburary last year and we agreed a 4 weekly clean (i will add our entire corespondance is through facebook messenger so i have all the evidence.
march, april, may were all cleaned, i messaged him ahead on all months and money left out or he paid online.
messaged for june, no response, no biggie went and cleaned and posted a note.
next couple of months i sent 2-3 messages for payment to no reply. so eventually sent a letter in the most, well worded asking for payment within 14 days or would send to small claims.
a week or so later, recieved a message, sorry been away, ill send payment
2 days after no payment but another messages, calling me names and saying hes got my pooey letter
i replied in nit the nicest way, bit of abuse (he started it, i couldnt resist)
we went back on forth he said he was on holiday, i said well how was i to know etc etc and to just pay and that would be that, he said he would pay and that i was a lot of names etc and thats how it was left.
few weeks when by and no payment so i filed the claim
and here we are, he has disputed it with a few reasons.
1/ we dont have a written contract and that i was tresspassing on his property as he did not agree to me being on his property that day
2/ he returned home 2 weeks after i cleaned and doesnt think that i did a good job
3/ his daughter was in all week and did not see me so doesnt believe i turned up and i didnt leave an invoice (i did)
my argument is we agreed a 4 weekly clean, that we did have a contract (via messenger to a 4 weekly clean) and that i carried out that agreement on the day after i had informed him i was coming. Also that because his daughter did not see me does not mean i wasnt there and that i did indeed leave a note. also he also agreed to send the payment but has since changed his mind and wont send it.
I believe i will win in court, but there is slight doubt in my mind as i can not actually prove i was on his property cleaning on the alleged day.
ap[parently its all down to what the judge believes to be the most likley scenario
good fun eh
If you have anything in writing saying he was away, and he'll pay, he's lost as by doing so he's accepted that he wanted you to clean them.
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I wouldn't be giving up a morning/afternoon for £12.
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Do you still have the texts?
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Go for it as you've got this far. Call his bluff or it will eat you for evermore ;D But I would have included further charges for your time.
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messaged for june, no response, no biggie went and cleaned and posted a note.
As you have been messaging him before the clean and awaiting a response; you have set out terms of engagement.
Dont persue this..you will lose.
He didnt respond to you when you asked to clean his windows.. so as per terms of engagement he isnt contracted to you and you are not contracted to him.
If he said yes please come and clean them at the time or something to that effect then you would be able to pursue this.
By going ahead and cleaning anyway without confirmation, he does not need to pay you and can counter sue you for tresspassing, lost time, and inconvenience.
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Most would just walk away. But if more of us do this we would bring this none payment culture to an end.
I PERSONALLY APPLAUD YOU FOR NOT GIVING UP. and thank you for showing these asses that we are a business and can be expected to be paid. Well done. You are absolutely right pursuing payment. Egnor the negative spinless in our industry who will always slither out of expecting payment. WE as window cleaners need to put our foot down on this attitude towards our industry,
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messaged for june, no response, no biggie went and cleaned and posted a note.
As you have been messaging him before the clean and awaiting a response; you have set out terms of engagement.
Dont persue this..you will lose.
You seemed to forget one vital fact he had agreed to a 4 weekly clean and would have been expecting to be cleaned as per agreement. How was the cleaned to have known the customer was away. He should have called and cancelled.
ote]
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Adam
1. Can we see a copy of the actual text you normally send to him?
2. In the March, April, May period (when all was good) did he reply to the texts, or did you just turn up?
3. Did he pay cash, or do you have bank statements confirming his payments?
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I admire your tenacity, but I would have just not cleaned his windows again and moved on.
That's not to say I would write off the debt. I wouldn't. But I would wait until asked to do the windows again (could be years later) and then insist on payment in full plus the requested clean being in my hands before starting work.
I have a small number of similar cases. It's like cat and mouse, but I have one that I allowed to go too far, but I am bit by bit getting my money back, plus the custoner has learned not to mess me about now and pays promptly.
Hope you are successful.
John
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messaged for june, no response, no biggie went and cleaned and posted a note.
As you have been messaging him before the clean and awaiting a response; you have set out terms of engagement.
Dont persue this..you will lose.
He didnt respond to you when you asked to clean his windows.. so as per terms of engagement he isnt contracted to you and you are not contracted to him.
If he said yes please come and clean them at the time or something to that effect then you would be able to pursue this.
By going ahead and cleaning anyway without confirmation, he does not need to pay you and can counter sue you for tresspassing, lost time, and inconvenience.
He offered to pay in one text
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Looking at it from a business perspective I don't believe it's worth chasing.
I would of jacked him as a customer with the £12 owing and just written it off.
I think once you let your emotions start ruling you (anger, frustration) with these situations you are heading down a dead end road.
The situation you are in now is £37 out of pocket which will increase with lost time and earnings for attending court.
Even if you win you will only receive £37 I assume?
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You seemed to forget one vital fact he had agreed to a 4 weekly clean and would have been expecting to be cleaned as per agreement. How was the cleaned to have known the customer was away. He should have called and cancelled.
By messaging him and waiting for a response to clean them unfortunately he has set terms of engagement.
The court will argue that even though he agreed to a 4 weekly clean, upto that point every message was confirmed with a yes please or ok thanks and then payment made. So in the eyes of the court the terms of engagement require confirmation before each clean.. as he didnt get a response on that occasion and cleaned them anyway he operated outside the terms of engagement and therefore any work completed was not granted by way of permission, so he doent have to pay up and he knows it too which is why he has challanged it.
Now. If the window cleaner had just sent out a text at the very 1st clean i am coming on xx day and he didnt get a response and did it anyway, and he paid..then the terms of engagement would be different again
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messaged for june, no response, no biggie went and cleaned and posted a note.
As you have been messaging him before the clean and awaiting a response; you have set out terms of engagement.
Dont persue this..you will lose.
He didnt respond to you when you asked to clean his windows.. so as per terms of engagement he isnt contracted to you and you are not contracted to him.
If he said yes please come and clean them at the time or something to that effect then you would be able to pursue this.
By going ahead and cleaning anyway without confirmation, he does not need to pay you and can counter sue you for tresspassing, lost time, and inconvenience.
He offered to pay in one text
That wont matter as that can be construed as being pressurised.
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messaged for june, no response, no biggie went and cleaned and posted a note.
As you have been messaging him before the clean and awaiting a response; you have set out terms of engagement.
Dont persue this..you will lose.
He didnt respond to you when you asked to clean his windows.. so as per terms of engagement he isnt contracted to you and you are not contracted to him.
If he said yes please come and clean them at the time or something to that effect then you would be able to pursue this.
By going ahead and cleaning anyway without confirmation, he does not need to pay you and can counter sue you for tresspassing, lost time, and inconvenience.
You would have a point if it was an agreement that I would not be cleaning unless he says so.
But i wasn't asking for permission I was telling him out of courtesy I am coming.
I do the same with all customers.
We had already agreed a 4 weekly clean.
Although it's a good point as it could depend how the judge sees it!
Meh, i think I might have been better just egging his windows.
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I see it differently:
The guy has agreed to a 4 weekly clean.
I am not sure if the guy has responded to previous texts (but let's say he has). He has also paid, and as far as we aware, been happy with the service. No complaints etc.
On this occasion Adam has no response from his text (the guy could be out the country, broken phone, no signal, drunk, can't be arsed to reply etc, etc).
There is NO TEXT to cancel this particular clean, or cancel the service, so Adam turns up in GOOD FAITH and cleans the property.
Also, (as far as I have read), the guy already agrees to send the payment. It's only when he receives Adam's letter that he turns a bit poo.
Personally, I would never go down this road for £12 (this is why we have Halloween night and cheap eggs from Aldi).
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Well the judge will decide on a basis of view similar to what i said above.
On that basis I think the op will loose personally, and i strongly recommend he moves on.
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Put your time into getting more work instead. And crap on his bbq.
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I think he stands a chance:
and here we are, he has disputed it with a few reasons.
1/ we dont have a written contract and that i was tresspassing on his property as he did not agree to me being on his property that day
2/ he returned home 2 weeks after i cleaned and doesnt think that i did a good job
3/ his daughter was in all week and did not see me so doesnt believe i turned up and i didnt leave an invoice (i did)
1. He has agreed to a 4 weekly clean , you have it on facebook, so it's written down somewhere (god I hate facebook!)
2. He returned home and 'doesn't think I did a good job' or DID NOT CLEAN! These are two completely different issues and you need to be sure on this.
3. So his daughter stayed in for the whole week looking out the windows! Adam do you have work sheets to show you were in the area during the day you say you cleaned? Also did you clean the neighbours and have proof of their payments.
Good job I can touch type! ::)roll
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Put your time into getting more work instead. And crap on his bbq.
Yeh, it's not really worth it is it.
In future I think petty revenge would be better and probably more satisfying.
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Just forget it anyway.
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Just forget it anyway.
Having gone down this route (daft for £12) he may as well see it through.
If the guy has said in writing he will pay it, he’ll lose as he’s admitted he owes it. To then claim it wasn’t done, bad job, not agreed is daft having said he’ll pay.
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Put your time into getting more work instead. And crap on his bbq.
Yeh, it's not really worth it is it.
In future I think petty revenge would be better and probably more satisfying.
To me, the sweetest revenge is doing nothing, except for carrying on doing their neighbours' windows month in, month out, while they watch you from theirs with increasing difficulty as the dirt/bird poo/eggs etc builds up on them and with no-one to turn to to mug off!
John
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I wouldn't. Waste my time of a debt that small... Win some lose some.,
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Couldn't you make a copy of the small s claim court letter that they send out and edit it to use in the future to 'scare' non payers into paying you what they owe plus add the additional fees so you make extra money on it rather than potentially losing the 25 quid?
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every time someone doesnt pay or any perceived "bad luck" you get from time to time just think of the customers who gave you extra at xmas(or at any time of year!) or when you got a bargain on a product or item when shopping etc.....you ll find that everything balances out in the long run for most of us....
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I agree with Dazmond Adam, I'm usually £50-£100 down over the year with people moving , can't get paid dying or other unforeseen, but I've been paid over £200 in Xmas tips, you may get your £12 back with costs but you'll miss a days pay and with the aggro n stress you have gone through would you do again for £12, way I see it with Xmas tips your decent customers are making sure you get monies owed by paying bit extra at end of year so your not out of pocket.
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If he said hell pay ..the court will take that has binding .. been there done that .. if a court sees a text message saying he will send the payment .. thats all you need .... pursue
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the local water company near me made a balls up with the new water meters they put in a few years ago.my neighbour was getting my water bill instead of me and i was getting hers!(for around 4 years!)the property was empty for 2 of them so i hardly paid anything for 2 years and the other 2 were around £200 per year!so i reckon ive saved myself over £1,500 on my water bill over them 4 years! ;D ;D
I didnt have to pay them back either as they acknowledged that it was their fault...which was nice of them! ;D
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I've not read all of the replies but I would pursue it since you got the ball rolling. Hes contesting it on the basis that it wont go any further.
You both agreed to have the windows cleaned and the excuse of trespassing is nonsense.
However if it goes to court the only problem I can see is that you've always had a response before you cleaned them and this time you hadn't. However saying this, you have got his written consent via his initial agreement to pay for the clean and therefore agreeing to all you have done. So I would say stickto your guns, he's hoping you wont pursue
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If he said hell pay ..the court will take that has binding .. been there done that .. if a court sees a text message saying he will send the payment .. thats all you need .... pursue
This.
Keyser soze says he's been there done that ...
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If he said hell pay ..the court will take that has binding .. been there done that .. if a court sees a text message saying he will send the payment .. thats all you need .... pursue
This.
Keyser soze says he's been there done that ...
To be fair I have previously said this twice and I’ve got a degree in meeja studies.
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If he said hell pay ..the court will take that has binding .. been there done that .. if a court sees a text message saying he will send the payment .. thats all you need .... pursue
This.
Keyser soze says he's been there done that ...
To be fair I have previously said this twice and I’ve got a degree in meeja studies.
PMSL! ;D
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I don't think the guy has a leg to stand on. If he agreed to your initial agreement of frequency, price etc thats it. The fact he dint respond to the text for the clean he hasn't paid for is irrelevant; there's nothing in any of the contractural terms that state he has to respond or if he doesn't that this should be construed as him not wishing to have his windows cleaned.
He has also acknowledged that he will pay, which he wouldn't have done if he wasn't happy with the quality of work. Have you evidence in any form of him suggesting that he doesn't wish to pay as the work you did wasn't good enough?
I suspect what will happen is he will make you an offer before the court date. You may be obliged to accept it if you think the judge may view your non-acceptance as being non-compromising. Judges like to see you making an effort and not filling their time unnecessarily.
Pursue it, lets see where it goes.
Take one for the team. Someones got to.
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I sued a custard earlier this year. It was for a large sum of money. She was all mouth before the court due date. Her husband was a total numpty. They paid up in full two days before the court date.
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I sued a custard earlier this year. It was for a large sum of money.
So for more than 12 quid then? (http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1515263480_grin.gif)
Frankly I find it laughable that Adam is taking someone to court for £12.
Absolutely crazy!
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Aye :)
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I sued a custard earlier this year. It was for a large sum of money. She was all mouth before the court due date. Her husband was a total numpty. They paid up in full two days before the court date.
Cool. Nice one. Was that the one you told me about? The insurance claim?
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I sued a custard earlier this year. It was for a large sum of money.
So for more than 12 quid then? (http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1515263480_grin.gif)
Frankly I find it laughable that Adam is taking someone to court for £12.
Absolutely crazy!
Agreed, but he's got to see it through now.
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Don't waste your time and energy on this Mark,
You may win in court, but even then your not guaranteed to get your money. I know I've been there and believe me it was a lot more than £12. Lose a day's wages to attend court, pay for parking, petrol, etc. And at the end of the day this toe rag will walk away and still not pay.
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Don't waste your time and energy on this Mark,
You may win in court, but even then your not guaranteed to get your money. I know I've been there and believe me it was a lot more than £12. Lose a day's wages to attend court, pay for parking, petrol, etc. And at the end of the day this toe rag will walk away and still not pay.
Do you not instruct a bailiff at that point?
I know, more expense
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I still reckon most disputes can be resolved by getting someone to stab their dog in the neck.
Wab
HMP Belmarsh
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I sued a custard earlier this year. It was for a large sum of money.
So for more than 12 quid then? (http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1515263480_grin.gif)
Frankly I find it laughable that Adam is taking someone to court for £12.
Absolutely crazy!
Its my £12, its him taking the urine thats upset me, if it was legal i would rather to beat him to death ;D
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Do you not instruct a bailiff at that point?
I know, more expense
I did do, unless they allow access to their property the bailiff ain't getting Jack poop, end of story!
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I sued a custard earlier this year. It was for a large sum of money. She was all mouth before the court due date. Her husband was a total numpty. They paid up in full two days before the court date.
Cool. Nice one. Was that the one you told me about? The insurance claim?
Regarding insurance claims Ive had a nightmare year. 20 years trading, no claims then three in one year.
Anyway, yes this is that one I spoke to you about.
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Do you not instruct a bailiff at that point?
I know, more expense
I did do, unless they allow access to their property the bailiff ain't getting Jack poop, end of story!
A bailiff isn't the only course of action you can use to pursue a debt.
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At this stage I'd go anyway, although I'd never have sued for £12.00. There's a good chance he wont turn up and you'll get a default judgement. If he does turn up, treat it as a life experience and try to enjoy it.
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A bailiff isn't the only course of action you can use to pursue a debt.
Baseball bat?
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I was thinking more along the lines of sending them a book of Humorous Tosh Comments and Throw Away Remarks.
Bore them into submission.