Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: paul alan on October 19, 2017, 07:39:36 am
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How do I work this out?
I have just started the process of training someone up, I'll be paying £10 ph initially for part time hours but when full time I will pay min wage as basic but then performance based wages will take things up to around £11/£12.
I plan to have two people in my van whilst I'm not in it, me 2-3 days and them 3-4 days, maximising the profit from one van.
I think a reasonable target for them is £250.00 each for 9 hours work in a day. So would be looking for around £500 for a day with two employees in my van.
If I'm paying £100 to each employee how much of the £300 left over could I expect to take for profit?
This is just my initial plan for next year, I would like to be able to take more time off and have people around that can run things if I cant
. Its not all about the profits, its more about maximising what I already have and being able to keep the business going while I take time off or worse if I should become ill.
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£100 for worker one
£100 for worker two
£100 for VAT
£70 for TAX
£130 for you
That how I see it and how it works for us but our 3 try and turnover more so my share is bigger
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I don't think 2 men in one van are not going to do double of what 1 person can, I think your figures are a bit wishful thinking in reality. Also 9 hour days in winter (is that including breaks) their gonna need miners lights ;D
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Interesting post Paul as it's very similar to what I have in mind for my business next year. Couple of lads part time to reduce my hours actually in the van. Like you day the sole goal isnt money buy flexibility and an easier physical week.
First of all I would suspect if one man can do 250 then 2 won't do 500 as there will be travelling time, so maybe 2 would be more realistically doing 400-450? Depends how compact your work is I suppose. I k is travel time would impact mine to a degree.
Also if the above statement is true 130 profit from 500 turnover you have to question if it's viable. Now I've not done the math but those figure suggest there still other expense to come off before you get your slice. 100 quid profit hardly seems worth it in that case.
My plan is slightly different in that I don't want to go VAT registered. I think unless you plan to really kick on and get 10 vans out one day it's not worth going over. I also think the logistics of running a huge window cleaning business would be a nightmare. I look at the problems now with non payers and bad customers etc and look at where my business loses money and do I want that on a large scale? Don't think I do.
My aim is to have a couple of guys maybe full time or part time with me out as well come in just under vat and free plenty of time up for myself to look into other business ventures.
I also wouldn't. Be doing 9 hour days, I know how hard graft it is to wfp all day at any pace and I never manage 9 or even 8 hours so couldn't expect an employee to slog his guys out all day.
I would go with 8:30 whilst 4 that covers you for the minimum daylight hours in winter. Perhaps offer a Saturday morning and overtime if they want it for things like add ons. 8:30 -4 paid 7 hours at 8 quid is £56 a day plus a bonus if they complete the day's work of £200 target.
I think that gives them time to do the work and not kill themselves in the process.
Wages near me are pretty much always minimum wage for unskilled work, 12 quid an hour for window cleaning is serious coin, maybe not where you are..
Remember less turnover with less expense still gives the same profit margin but less turnover means less vat (if u go that route)
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Four years ago when I had Dan the Man working with me in my van - on mainly domestic and some small commercials (mainly sub £50 each) in an area about ten miles across we would do just over £400 in a seven hour-ish day. I did feel I was doing a bit more than half the work mind! ;D
On my own I do £250 on the same work (about £225 back then).
I paid him £10 ph and £100/£200 bonus for the month if a lower and higher target were reached. A further quarterly bonus of £100/200 if either of is targets were reached.
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I have no intention of going vat registered!
especially not if the bill is so substantial .
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On the figures you've put forward you won't have a choice.
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why not pay 50% of turnover - costs if they do 500 and its 100 a day costs that leaves them 100 each and you 200 .
if i was employed on that i would work hard.
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VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.
It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.
I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.
Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.
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VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.
It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.
I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.
Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.
That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.
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Thanks for all the reply's, helps put things into perspective for me.
So I would need to stay under the vat threshold, what's that around 70k?
If I was start another business that was under 70k would the two incomes be combined in the eye of the taxman?
I have another idea that is cleaning nut not window cleaning that I can make around the same kind of income from, I have some experience with caravan cleaning and I live in caravan city here.
I know I can bring some work in there, I wouldn't even need 0.5% of the vans around here to make a very good business.
So yeah, wishful thinking in some ways.
I think if my van did 70kish a year and half of that was done by others it would still give me a comfortable lifestyle without breaking my back.
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VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.
It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.
I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.
Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.
That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.
what do you charge for consultations lee?
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Going back a couple of years i would help out my friend on his work and him me. So we gave each other a day a week for payment to each other so money didnt pass between us. A slight flaw as i was better n faster, especially on ladder as i had more experience n confidence. So really i should have been paid more on top but being friends its "mates rates"
However it put me off employing properly because even though we had targets that we wanted to reach, ie 2 days work into one day. It didnt really work mostly due to talking to each other whilst working. Granted this was on trad working, one upstairs whilst other does down stairs.
So on wfp would they both clean one house each or both clean one house?? If both cleaning same house at a time how would you tackle talk time or even messing around time?? If an house each would a target bonus stop them getting bored or would it spoil worknas they race to meet target or compete against each other?
Also there's the worry that was highlighted on another thread.......you employ idiots and your equipmemt breaks or they leave it behind.
To me, unless you aim high its not worth even contemplating. Unless the profit is seriously high because by changing how you work on your own and fine tuning your work and prices.... (for the profit you mentioned in your idea) theoretically you can make that extra profit in perhaps less time and hassle of employing
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Thanks for all the reply's, helps put things into perspective for me.
So I would need to stay under the vat threshold, what's that around 70k? £83,000.00
If I was start another business that was under 70k would the two incomes be combined in the eye of the taxman? Yes.
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VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.
It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.
I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.
Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.
That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.
Wouldn't even begin to argue with you Lee but I would assume your profit margins in terms of what you turnover to what you pay your staff would be much higher than my area.
I know you charge 20 odd quid for houses I charge a tenner for. And I wouldnt have thought your wages are double?
I don't think you can make a direct comparison between working up north and working down south
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Thanks for all the reply's, helps put things into perspective for me.
So I would need to stay under the vat threshold, what's that around 70k? £83,000.00
If I was start another business that was under 70k would the two incomes be combined in the eye of the taxman? Yes.
Vat reg threshold for 2017 is £85,000.
Vat de-reg threshold is £83,000.
By the 2018 budget it's likely going to be around the £88,000 mark by the looks of things.
It amazes me how a sole trader is doing business at these levels. Those self employment payments on account must be crippling.
:P
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VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.
It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.
I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.
Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.
That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.
what do you charge for consultations lee?
Consultations ? you mean babble, if you don't want bad payers then get rid of bad payers, if you want to want to employ and stay
below the vat threshold that's not hard either, if you want to build an empire then you really want to be going well past the vat
threshold to make it worth the effort.
From what I'm reading you want to be able to take on a few employees and take a back seat in other words your two employees
have to make enough to pay three wages, with the vat threshold at around £85k it doesn't leave you with a lot of wriggle room.
-
VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.
It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.
I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.
Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.
That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.
Wouldn't even begin to argue with you Lee but I would assume your profit margins in terms of what you turnover to what you pay your staff would be much higher than my area.
I know you charge 20 odd quid for houses I charge a tenner for. And I wouldnt have thought your wages are double?
I don't think you can make a direct comparison between working up north and working down south
True
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VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.
It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.
I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.
Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.
That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.
what do you charge for consultations lee?
£150 per hour plus VAT, minimum booking 3 hours. That also includes any advice and support over the phone you need for the following 12 months. Meetings are held at my office during afternoons. I ask for a list of points you want to cover in advance and recommend the meeting is recorded so you can refer back.
As for that being "babble" my "babble" has helped lots of people develop their businesses over the last 12 months and I continue to make new bookings. 3 over the next few weeks actually.
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VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.
It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.
I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.
Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.
That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.
what do you charge for consultations lee?
Consultations ? you mean babble, if you don't want bad payers then get rid of bad payers, if you want to want to employ and stay
below the vat threshold that's not hard either, if you want to build an empire then you really want to be going well past the vat
threshold to make it worth the effort.
From what I'm reading you want to be able to take on a few employees and take a back seat in other words your two employees
have to make enough to pay three wages, with the vat threshold at around £85k it doesn't leave you with a lot of wriggle room.
I think the 85k (or 88k soon) could provide a nice little business setup if you so wanted to do it that way.
2 men 2 vans each turning over 40k a year. Easily do able at 1k a week is 52k each , minus hols sick days and bad weather etc should still see them being able to do the 40k a piece fairly comfortably (even up north)
If there both on 40 hour weeks that 16 5k roughly a piece plus a bit of employer's N.i maybe 17.5k each, obviously running costs on top...
Still should leave you with 40k pre tax profit which is equivalent to what a decent sole trader would turnover on his own.
Obviously you can pitch in as bit an do the other 8k if you want.
Not saying this would interest everyone but it's certainly a viable option if you wanted.
-
VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.
It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.
I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.
Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.
That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.
what do you charge for consultations lee?
£150 per hour plus VAT, minimum booking 3 hours. That also includes any advice and support over the phone you need for the following 12 months. Meetings are held at my office during afternoons. I ask for a list of points you want to cover in advance and recommend the meeting is recorded so you can refer back.
As for that being "babble" my "babble" has helped lots of people develop their businesses over the last 12 months and I continue to make new bookings. 3 over the next few weeks actually.
We all seen your original business plan Lee, lol, you have drive and balls the size of coconuts which is 99% of what is needed to build a decent window cleaning empire, as for charging for your babble well if there are idiots who are willing to pay
for it then why not, plenty of Del Boy's out there doing the same.
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VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.
It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.
I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.
Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.
That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.
what do you charge for consultations lee?
Consultations ? you mean babble, if you don't want bad payers then get rid of bad payers, if you want to want to employ and stay
below the vat threshold that's not hard either, if you want to build an empire then you really want to be going well past the vat
threshold to make it worth the effort.
From what I'm reading you want to be able to take on a few employees and take a back seat in other words your two employees
have to make enough to pay three wages, with the vat threshold at around £85k it doesn't leave you with a lot of wriggle room.
I think the 85k (or 88k soon) could provide a nice little business setup if you so wanted to do it that way.
2 men 2 vans each turning over 40k a year. Easily do able at 1k a week is 52k each , minus hols sick days and bad weather etc should still see them being able to do the 40k a piece fairly comfortably (even up north)
If there both on 40 hour weeks that 16 5k roughly a piece plus a bit of employer's N.i maybe 17.5k each, obviously running costs on top...
Still should leave you with 40k pre tax profit which is equivalent to what a decent sole trader would turnover on his own.
Obviously you can pitch in as bit an do the other 8k if you want.
Not saying this would interest everyone but it's certainly a viable option if you wanted.
The vat threshold is charged on turnover so instantly the £104k would be hit with at least the lower vat payment which I
think is 12%.
Plus if your able to do £1k a week cleaning windows would you then be in a area where an employee would be happy on £16k
a year ?
I would say in reality you would be very lucky to get anywhere near £40k leftover for yourself.
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100k per year turnover.
Minus 20% vat.
80k per year turnover.
20k business costs (for arguments sake
30k employee costs
30k profit left
Not hard to understand is it?. I don't understand how so many on this forum think there is more to it than that.
Spend your 30k profit on an additional van and some canvassing/advertising.
vat back on equipment
More customers
More tunover
Repeat..
-
100k per year turnover.
Minus 20% vat.
80k per year turnover.
20k business costs (for arguments sake
30k employee costs
30k profit left
Not hard to understand is it?. I don't understand how so many on this forum think there is more to it than that.
Spend your 30k profit on an additional van and some canvassing/advertising.
vat back on equipment
More customers
More tunover
Repeat..
Seems hard enough for you to understand, how many employees will you get for £30k ? and if the £30k goes back into the
business what are you going to live on ?
-
100k per year turnover.
Minus 20% vat.
80k per year turnover.
20k business costs (for arguments sake
30k employee costs
30k profit left
Not hard to understand is it?. I don't understand how so many on this forum think there is more to it than that.
Spend your 30k profit on an additional van and some canvassing/advertising.
vat back on equipment
More customers
More tunover
Repeat..
Seems hard enough for you to understand, how many employees will you get for £30k ? and if the £30k goes back into the
business what are you going to live on ?
One employee should be ok. Full time. On paye.
30k profit in the business, take your personal allowance tax free, draw dividends for the remaining.
::)roll
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VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.
It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.
I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.
Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.
That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.
what do you charge for consultations lee?
Consultations ? you mean babble, if you don't want bad payers then get rid of bad payers, if you want to want to employ and stay
below the vat threshold that's not hard either, if you want to build an empire then you really want to be going well past the vat
threshold to make it worth the effort.
From what I'm reading you want to be able to take on a few employees and take a back seat in other words your two employees
have to make enough to pay three wages, with the vat threshold at around £85k it doesn't leave you with a lot of wriggle room.
I think the 85k (or 88k soon) could provide a nice little business setup if you so wanted to do it that way.
2 men 2 vans each turning over 40k a year. Easily do able at 1k a week is 52k each , minus hols sick days and bad weather etc should still see them being able to do the 40k a piece fairly comfortably (even up north)
If there both on 40 hour weeks that 16 5k roughly a piece plus a bit of employer's N.i maybe 17.5k each, obviously running costs on top...
Still should leave you with 40k pre tax profit which is equivalent to what a decent sole trader would turnover on his own.
Obviously you can pitch in as bit an do the other 8k if you want.
Not saying this would interest everyone but it's certainly a viable option if you wanted.
The vat threshold is charged on turnover so instantly the £104k would be hit with at least the lower vat payment which I
think is 12%.
Plus if your able to do £1k a week cleaning windows would you then be in a area where an employee would be happy on £16k
a year ?
I would say in reality you would be very lucky to get anywhere near £40k leftover for yourself.
I'm not on about going over vat I'm on about having 2 employees doing 40k each and maybe yourself doing the odd little bit to come in just under VAT.
Why would they not be happy on 16k.? I worked for 16k for 4 years as a del driver in my last job before going self employed. There were dozens of lads there doing the same.
An employee's mindset is different to ours they just go to work and get paid they dont think about how much the boss is making. Well, maybe some do but there's Millions of employees out there who are happy with their lot.
I disagree mate I think I could get close to 40k pre tax profit.
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VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.
It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.
I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.
Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.
That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.
what do you charge for consultations lee?
Consultations ? you mean babble, if you don't want bad payers then get rid of bad payers, if you want to want to employ and stay
below the vat threshold that's not hard either, if you want to build an empire then you really want to be going well past the vat
threshold to make it worth the effort.
From what I'm reading you want to be able to take on a few employees and take a back seat in other words your two employees
have to make enough to pay three wages, with the vat threshold at around £85k it doesn't leave you with a lot of wriggle room.
I think the 85k (or 88k soon) could provide a nice little business setup if you so wanted to do it that way.
2 men 2 vans each turning over 40k a year. Easily do able at 1k a week is 52k each , minus hols sick days and bad weather etc should still see them being able to do the 40k a piece fairly comfortably (even up north)
If there both on 40 hour weeks that 16 5k roughly a piece plus a bit of employer's N.i maybe 17.5k each, obviously running costs on top...
Still should leave you with 40k pre tax profit which is equivalent to what a decent sole trader would turnover on his own.
Obviously you can pitch in as bit an do the other 8k if you want.
Not saying this would interest everyone but it's certainly a viable option if you wanted.
The vat threshold is charged on turnover so instantly the £104k would be hit with at least the lower vat payment which I
think is 12%.
Plus if your able to do £1k a week cleaning windows would you then be in a area where an employee would be happy on £16k
a year ?
I would say in reality you would be very lucky to get anywhere near £40k leftover for yourself.
I'm not on about going over vat I'm on about having 2 employees doing 40k each and maybe yourself doing the odd little bit to come in just under VAT.
Why would they not be happy on 16k.? I worked for 16k for 4 years as a del driver in my last job before going self employed. There were dozens of lads there doing the same.
An employee's mindset is different to ours they just go to work and get paid they dont think about how much the boss is making. Well, maybe some do but there's Millions of employees out there who are happy with their lot.
I disagree mate I think I could get close to 40k pre tax profit.
Agree with Adam here.
Many people.are happy to just do a job Monday to Friday for x amount.
-
100k per year turnover.
Minus 20% vat.
80k per year turnover.
20k business costs (for arguments sake
30k employee costs
30k profit left
Not hard to understand is it?. I don't understand how so many on this forum think there is more to it than that.
Spend your 30k profit on an additional van and some canvassing/advertising.
vat back on equipment
More customers
More tunover
Repeat..
Seems hard enough for you to understand, how many employees will you get for £30k ? and if the £30k goes back into the
business what are you going to live on ?
One employee should be ok. Full time. On paye.
30k profit in the business, take your personal allowance tax free, draw dividends for the remaining.
::)roll
I see, that wouldn't work for me (1) there's no way one employee is going to get anywhere near £100k and (2) if they could unless they where a total spineless useless idiot they certainly wouldn't be working for me for around £22k a year with a £100k
easily achievable working on your own.
-
VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.
It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.
I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.
Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.
That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.
what do you charge for consultations lee?
Consultations ? you mean babble, if you don't want bad payers then get rid of bad payers, if you want to want to employ and stay
below the vat threshold that's not hard either, if you want to build an empire then you really want to be going well past the vat
threshold to make it worth the effort.
From what I'm reading you want to be able to take on a few employees and take a back seat in other words your two employees
have to make enough to pay three wages, with the vat threshold at around £85k it doesn't leave you with a lot of wriggle room.
I think the 85k (or 88k soon) could provide a nice little business setup if you so wanted to do it that way.
2 men 2 vans each turning over 40k a year. Easily do able at 1k a week is 52k each , minus hols sick days and bad weather etc should still see them being able to do the 40k a piece fairly comfortably (even up north)
If there both on 40 hour weeks that 16 5k roughly a piece plus a bit of employer's N.i maybe 17.5k each, obviously running costs on top...
Still should leave you with 40k pre tax profit which is equivalent to what a decent sole trader would turnover on his own.
Obviously you can pitch in as bit an do the other 8k if you want.
Not saying this would interest everyone but it's certainly a viable option if you wanted.
The vat threshold is charged on turnover so instantly the £104k would be hit with at least the lower vat payment which I
think is 12%.
Plus if your able to do £1k a week cleaning windows would you then be in a area where an employee would be happy on £16k
a year ?
I would say in reality you would be very lucky to get anywhere near £40k leftover for yourself.
I'm not on about going over vat I'm on about having 2 employees doing 40k each and maybe yourself doing the odd little bit to come in just under VAT.
Why would they not be happy on 16k.? I worked for 16k for 4 years as a del driver in my last job before going self employed. There were dozens of lads there doing the same.
An employee's mindset is different to ours they just go to work and get paid they dont think about how much the boss is making. Well, maybe some do but there's Millions of employees out there who are happy with their lot.
I disagree mate I think I could get close to 40k pre tax profit.
Nonsense even if you could get two employees desperate to work for around minimum wage which is around the £16k they're certainly not going to burst their humps knocking out £40k each worth of work for you.
But lets say they do, £16k by 2 £32k employee costs lets say £40k all in another £20k in costs, that leaves you £20k with everything cut to the wire.
Not trying to be rude but your dreaming if you think this will work.
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VAT is the biggest hurdle for this business if you are mainly residential.
It's a massive hurdle, it's a 20% one.
I can't see the profit margins worth it in a huge business to compensate for the high levels of stress.
Use this game for what it is, great for sole traders and small businesses with good profit margins. Take your profits and invest them elsewhere imo.
That's a bit short sighted Adam. We do all houses and don't have the problems your talking about at all. You simply have do develop your business in the right way. Yes if you have lots of problems now and grow the same business then the same problems will be bigger but not if you make changes to cure those problems. I don't have any bad payers and I do mean none, and I don't have logistic problems either. You never actually pay 20% in vat because of claim backs. I find it's more like 15% at the most sometimes less.
what do you charge for consultations lee?
Consultations ? you mean babble, if you don't want bad payers then get rid of bad payers, if you want to want to employ and stay
below the vat threshold that's not hard either, if you want to build an empire then you really want to be going well past the vat
threshold to make it worth the effort.
From what I'm reading you want to be able to take on a few employees and take a back seat in other words your two employees
have to make enough to pay three wages, with the vat threshold at around £85k it doesn't leave you with a lot of wriggle room.
I think the 85k (or 88k soon) could provide a nice little business setup if you so wanted to do it that way.
2 men 2 vans each turning over 40k a year. Easily do able at 1k a week is 52k each , minus hols sick days and bad weather etc should still see them being able to do the 40k a piece fairly comfortably (even up north)
If there both on 40 hour weeks that 16 5k roughly a piece plus a bit of employer's N.i maybe 17.5k each, obviously running costs on top...
Still should leave you with 40k pre tax profit which is equivalent to what a decent sole trader would turnover on his own.
Obviously you can pitch in as bit an do the other 8k if you want.
Not saying this would interest everyone but it's certainly a viable option if you wanted.
The vat threshold is charged on turnover so instantly the £104k would be hit with at least the lower vat payment which I
think is 12%.
Plus if your able to do £1k a week cleaning windows would you then be in a area where an employee would be happy on £16k
a year ?
I would say in reality you would be very lucky to get anywhere near £40k leftover for yourself.
I'm not on about going over vat I'm on about having 2 employees doing 40k each and maybe yourself doing the odd little bit to come in just under VAT.
Why would they not be happy on 16k.? I worked for 16k for 4 years as a del driver in my last job before going self employed. There were dozens of lads there doing the same.
An employee's mindset is different to ours they just go to work and get paid they dont think about how much the boss is making. Well, maybe some do but there's Millions of employees out there who are happy with their lot.
I disagree mate I think I could get close to 40k pre tax profit.
Nonsense even if you could get two employees desperate to work for around minimum wage which is around the £16k they're certainly not going to burst their humps knocking out £40k each worth of work for you.
But lets say they do, £16k by 2 £32k employee costs lets say £40k all in another £20k in costs, that leaves you £20k with everything cut to the wire.
Not trying to be rude but your dreaming if you think this will work.
Lets have a look...
each employee does 40k a year, they get 4 weeks hols plus stat plus couple of weeks sick/rained off etc
lets say they work 45 weeks out of the 52 in effect, so thats £888 per week they need to turnover
they will likely work for 7 hours a day and have 1 hour break so £177 a day £25 per hour, not a huge target imo..
so they get paid £8 per hour £16,640 each per annum
Employers N.I would be 1169 each
Then you have employers liabilty insurance ?? % £500 per year (correct me here i dont know)
Then fuel for me is about £20 a week, lets call this £25 or £1125 per annum per van
water costs, well if this is run from home ill avoid business rates, i cnat see this being much more than £1000 a year in filters, resin etc
van tax lets say 250 py per van
van servicing/m.o.t - how longs a piece of string?? £1000 a year for both - touch wood
van insurance x 2?? £1000 a year for both ?
accountant and payroll £500
so far we have 42408
dont forget im chipping in a bit to egt this up to 85k, covering holidays maybe or the odd sick day etc
so 85k - 42k
43k
of course im missing a few bits, uniform, equipment, vehicle purchases etc but its not going to effect profits hugely
i might not get quite 40k but i wont be far off...a lot closer to that than 20k
where do you get 20k in costs from?
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I think you might even be able to save in some areas possibly.
Would you be leasing vans or buying?
A van lease could set you back £200-£250 per month, each.
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At 16k you will struggle to get anything other that unreliable morons. Trust me, I've employed for the last 12 years. All mine are on 24-28k plus bonuses. Even with that by far the hardest thing is getting good reliable staff.
Also with your figure break down in reality they probably won't do the amount your talking about and you haven't factored in bad payers/late payers, you will then become the business cash flow buffer meaning everyone and everything thing else gets paid but you dont. Things like this and how to avoid them are covered in my "babble".
I just don't understand this fear of vat! Why not aim your business at say 130-150k turnover and factor vat into your numbers, pay better people a bit more to keep them interested, have a 3rd guy and get paid the money you think you want. Vat is easy to manage if your cash flow is positive. If it isn't then that needs addressing.
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I think you might even be able to save in some areas possibly.
Would you be leasing vans or buying?
A van lease could set you back £200-£250 per month, each.
I think I would finance, sell them then re finance.
My van is 190 pm over 3 years (3 year old partner) 2 of those would be 5k a year all in. However if you sold them both for 3k each at the end of the finance period and put that back in as a deposit on the next 2 vans you'd like to half the next 3 years bills to 2.5k a year and so on.
Only one option. Of course
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At 16k you will struggle to get anything other that unreliable morons. Trust me, I've employed for the last 12 years. All mine are on 24-28k plus bonuses. Even with that by far the hardest thing is getting good reliable staff.
Also with your figure break down in reality they probably won't do the amount your talking about and you haven't factored in bad payers/late payers, you will then become the business cash flow buffer meaning everyone and everything thing else gets paid but you dont. Things like this and how to avoid them are covered in my "babble".
I just don't understand this fear of vat! Why not aim your business at say 130-150k turnover and factor vat into your numbers, pay better people a bit more to keep them interested, have a 3rd guy and get paid the money you think you want. Vat is easy to manage if your cash flow is positive. If it isn't then that needs addressing.
Points taken in board but 25k is far too much for my business. Like I said earlier north/south divide. I can't turn over 300 a day...BUT I could pay them a bit more maybe in bonuses for hitting said figures
That's a great point about cashflow and yes it would need addressing. I'll save the 500 quid of "babble" and try to get everyone on go cardless though.
I don't think it's a fear of Vat as such. I think it's more about what your end goal is. I don't want 10 vans out and all the added work involved. I want a small profitable business that's easy to run, minimum overheads and can provide me with a salary as good as I would get full time in my own with far less physical input from myself. I would also like to use the time I free up to look at other business ventures, I don't think window cleaning is something I want to do on a really large scale I just don't love it that much I just see it as a way to get started.
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it all sounds so easy doesnt it lads? ;D ;D
the reality is very different.most of you will get nowhere near the figures quoted,or even find enough work to keep employees busy.
while you guys were dreaming about not working for a living this afternoon ive been out window cleaning in torrential rain with man flu!.........id still rather do that than employ again lads!! ;) ;D
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Its all an adventure though Daz ;)
It doesnt really matter whos right or wrong or if it will work out or not, whether you want to be a billionaire and have free time to go fishing everyday or sit on the dole and go fishing everyday... none of it matters in the end, its all a pointless passing of time until the inevitable.
Heres the thing though Daz, if i try and create a system where i dont have to work for a living i will have a much higher chance of achieving it than if i do nothing and say, nah it`ll never happen its too hard why bother trying, may as well just clean windows forever.
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i suppose another question you have to ask is can you afford the pay cut in between taking someone on and building up more work.
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i suppose another question you have to ask is can you afford the pay cut in between taking someone on and building up more work.
You would want to have a system in place where you know you can drop an investment and get a return.
Just like Lee does with his leaflets, drops a wedge of cash and gets a return, saves up and does it again.
Thats how i would do it.
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This time of year is when you get the summer only customers saying can you leave it until spring as well so you have to replace them as well as trying to find new work. If employing for such little profit I personally wouldn't bother and just stay self employed without the added stress. If you're going to employ then make sure you get customers paying regularly as cash flow is even more important when paying employees to keep going. Make sure it's run professionally for decent prices to pay decent wages because you won't get reliable employees on average pay who are reliable because this job can be hard work in all weathers with moaning customers when the weather turns late autumn until spring.
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Its all an adventure though Daz ;)
It doesnt really matter whos right or wrong or if it will work out or not, whether you want to be a billionaire and have free time to go fishing everyday or sit on the dole and go fishing everyday... none of it matters in the end, its all a pointless passing of time until the inevitable.
Heres the thing though Daz, if i try and create a system where i dont have to work for a living i will have a much higher chance of achieving it than if i do nothing and say, nah it`ll never happen its too hard why bother trying, may as well just clean windows forever.
Nothing wrong with having goals Adam they just have to be sensible and realistic, for instance there's a very successful shiner
in my area who has around 25 employees and no longer spends any time on the glass but there's not a chance in hell that
he could have done it with 2.
If you where to pay your employees a decent wage you could probably achieve your goals with 4 or 5 employees instead of 2 and end up with a more reliable business, doing it on the cheap will get you nothing but an unreliable business that could and probably will fall to pieces with the slightest hiccup.
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If you want 40k for doing sod all, you'll need to smash through the vat.
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If you want 40k for doing sod all, you'll need to smash through the vat.
It is amazing the bs brigade who are
Scared of vat. The same who boast of earnings but are so desperate that they work in the pouring rain.
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I was in the rain today, changed my clothes twice! Easier to clean pv in the wet.
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If you want 40k for doing sod all, you'll need to smash through the vat.
It is amazing the bs brigade who are
Scared of vat. The same who boast of earnings but are so desperate that they work in the pouring rain.
bit of a daft statement. which part of the thread is BS? and who is scared of VAT?
If you work through the rain, you will earn more money ? so how is that a bad thing?
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This time of year is when you get the summer only customers saying can you leave it until spring as well so you have to replace them as well as trying to find new work. If employing for such little profit I personally wouldn't bother and just stay self employed without the added stress. If you're going to employ then make sure you get customers paying regularly as cash flow is even more important when paying employees to keep going. Make sure it's run professionally for decent prices to pay decent wages because you won't get reliable employees on average pay who are reliable because this job can be hard work in all weathers with moaning customers when the weather turns late autumn until spring.
whats "summer only" customers?all my customers windows are cleaned all year round.
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If you want 40k for doing sod all, you'll need to smash through the vat.
It is amazing the bs brigade who are
Scared of vat. The same who boast of earnings but are so desperate that they work in the pouring rain.
bit of a daft statement. which part of the thread is BS? and who is scared of VAT?
If you work through the rain, you will earn more money ? so how is that a bad thing?
partington is a troll adam have you not noticed before? ;D.....he s never got anything good/useful to say
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If you want 40k for doing sod all, you'll need to smash through the vat.
It is amazing the bs brigade who are
Scared of vat. The same who boast of earnings but are so desperate that they work in the pouring rain.
bit of a daft statement. which part of the thread is BS? and who is scared of VAT?
If you work through the rain, you will earn more money ? so how is that a bad thing?
partington is a troll adam have you not noticed before? ;D.....he s never got anything good/useful to say
Oh ok, i see, so you could say hes part of the BS brigade?
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This time of year is when you get the summer only customers saying can you leave it until spring as well so you have to replace them as well as trying to find new work. If employing for such little profit I personally wouldn't bother and just stay self employed without the added stress. If you're going to employ then make sure you get customers paying regularly as cash flow is even more important when paying employees to keep going. Make sure it's run professionally for decent prices to pay decent wages because you won't get reliable employees on average pay who are reliable because this job can be hard work in all weathers with moaning customers when the weather turns late autumn until spring.
whats "summer only" customers?all my customers windows are cleaned all year round.
So are mine, any ask for summer only get dropped and replaced, not worth bothering with, no loyalty, no customer.
I was referring to new start ups discovering for the first couple years who are genuine all year round customers and those who only want summer cleans as one doesn't know how customers turn out untillate autumn/winter time. Then these summer customers wonder why they can't get widow cleaners, haha. I don't take on summer only customers and let them know from the start it's annual or not at all.
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If you want 40k for doing sod all, you'll need to smash through the vat.
It is amazing the bs brigade who are
Scared of vat. The same who boast of earnings but are so desperate that they work in the pouring rain.
bit of a daft statement. which part of the thread is BS? and who is scared of VAT?
If you work through the rain, you will earn more money ? so how is that a bad thing?
partington is a troll adam have you not noticed before? ;D.....he s never got anything good/useful to say
Oh ok, i see, so you could say hes part of the BS brigade?
Not remotely. I Just see through all the lies and ridiculousness on here.
But it’s all moot. The fantasists can get ill working in the rain because they are chasing pennies whilst boasting. I care not.
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So you are calling BS and lies but rather than pointing out what your are refering to so we can be enlightened you simply say it's all moot I don't care.
Sounds to me like you just wanted to stir the pot with nothing significant to add to the topic.
Good for you
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In my experience if you start putting off customers because of a little bit of rain they take that as a green light to mess you about.
If it's light-moderate rain I just carry on with my waterproofs on.
That comment about chasing the pennies uncalled for imo. We all know no one is stupid enough to charge literally pennies..
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Its all an adventure though Daz ;)
It doesnt really matter whos right or wrong or if it will work out or not, whether you want to be a billionaire and have free time to go fishing everyday or sit on the dole and go fishing everyday... none of it matters in the end, its all a pointless passing of time until the inevitable.
Heres the thing though Daz, if i try and create a system where i dont have to work for a living i will have a much higher chance of achieving it than if i do nothing and say, nah it`ll never happen its too hard why bother trying, may as well just clean windows forever.
Nothing wrong with having goals Adam they just have to be sensible and realistic, for instance there's a very successful shiner
in my area who has around 25 employees and no longer spends any time on the glass but there's not a chance in hell that
he could have done it with 2.
If you where to pay your employees a decent wage you could probably achieve your goals with 4 or 5 employees instead of 2 and end up with a more reliable business, doing it on the cheap will get you nothing but an unreliable business that could and probably will fall to pieces with the slightest hiccup.
Sean has just about nailed it right there IMO. Then the question is can you secure enough customers to support 4 or 5 employees?
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So you are calling BS and lies but rather than pointing out what your are refering to so we can be enlightened you simply say it's all moot I don't care.
Sounds to me like you just wanted to stir the pot with nothing significant to add to the topic.
Good for you
It’s obviously too difficult for you.
Never mind.
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So you are calling BS and lies but rather than pointing out what your are refering to so we can be enlightened you simply say it's all moot I don't care.
Sounds to me like you just wanted to stir the pot with nothing significant to add to the topic.
Good for you
It’s obviously too difficult for you.
Never mind.
Seems simple to me, you are talking poo poo and trying to cover it up with smart "I'm too clever to give a straight answer" remarks is only showing up your lack of thought when you started typing.
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So you are calling BS and lies but rather than pointing out what your are refering to so we can be enlightened you simply say it's all moot I don't care.
Sounds to me like you just wanted to stir the pot with nothing significant to add to the topic.
Good for you
It’s obviously too difficult for you.
Never mind.
Seems simple to me, you are talking poo poo and trying to cover it up with smart "I'm too clever to give a straight answer" remarks is only showing up your lack of thought when you started typing.
So I was right then.
Never mind.
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So you are calling BS and lies but rather than pointing out what your are refering to so we can be enlightened you simply say it's all moot I don't care.
Sounds to me like you just wanted to stir the pot with nothing significant to add to the topic.
Good for you
It’s obviously too difficult for you.
Never mind.
Seems simple to me, you are talking poo poo and trying to cover it up with smart "I'm too clever to give a straight answer" remarks is only showing up your lack of thought when you started typing.
So I was right then.
Never mind.
This is hard work isn't it.
Thanks for your input.
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Back on topic. If you have a formula to make a decent profit per employee and managing them and the business is not going to give you too much stress (it would for me) then why not replicate it? Clearly Lee has done this to great success. Its not the life for me and Im sure Lee doesn't begrudge me that! Any ideas of how running a second/third van etc with success is a good contribution to the forum and defiantly a good talking point ;D