Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Crystal-clear on September 27, 2017, 10:43:13 pm
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Not mentioning any company's or names but I know for a fact some dudes running 10 vans 6 vans providing all tools uniforms etc
Yet the window cleaners are self employed I know as I worked with someone the other day who used to work for a big fish from this very forum and he told me how it worked just like that
Don't get me wrong if it's legal fine as it's better but surely this isn't allowed what fascinates me is some of the guys have several vans and produce a serious turn over
Unless I'm missing something id love to know if you can actually do this as the reason why I haven't employed is because of the Liabiltys of being an employer but now I'm curious to know if you can do it
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Yodel, Hermes... Driver's are self employed.
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Yodel, Hermes... Driver's are self employed.
right so what am i missing and quite a few others who are firm on this subject..
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Perhaps they decide their own hours and are responsible for the job, should it not be done.
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Perhaps they decide their own hours and are responsible for the job, should it not be done.
no strictly dictated too told to be at depot for 8am or 9am using business owners tools fully depending on that income uniformed everything
no holiday pay no ssp liability
no complicated contracts no tribunals for no longer offering them work
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Basically mate, if the lads are happy to do it, and no one kicks up a fuss, there's a million ways round it.
Taxi drivers are all self employed I think? You can just say the windy "can turn up when he likes and do how much he likes" even though we all know the have families and will do 9-5 everyday etc.
I only like employing for the peace of mind it gives the lads and in turn the more you get from them in return
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I did employment law for a while in a past life. If the "employee" doesn't tale you to a tribunal. It's rare anyone will get involved.
Sure, hmrc may notice, but if you have a willing dodgy accountant, I'm sure that can be sorted as well.
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Not mentioning any company's or names but I know for a fact some dudes running 10 vans 6 vans providing all tools uniforms etc
Yet the window cleaners are self employed I know as I worked with someone the other day who used to work for a big fish from this very forum and he told me how it worked just like that
Don't get me wrong if it's legal fine as it's better but surely this isn't allowed what fascinates me is some of the guys have several vans and produce a serious turn over
Unless I'm missing something id love to know if you can actually do this as the reason why I haven't employed is because of the Liabiltys of being an employer but now I'm curious to know if you can do it
What you see on the outside doesn't mean that is the same on the inside.
Weekly working hours in employment is one example.
https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours
https://www.gov.uk/maximum-weekly-working-hours/weekly-maximum-working-hours-and-opting-out
When I was in the motor trade every saleman was given this form to sign before your employment was confirmed. If you didn't sign the form or refused to work more than 48 hours a week then you didn't get the job.
All dealerships had tax exemptions from the Receiver regarding how the dealership would deal with company car taxation. So according to our 'status' within the group we paid tax on an agreed vehicle catagory. Some nights I might take home a car in a higher catagory and other nights I might take home a scrapper that still had a little tax left on the windscreen. Failing that, it still might have been a trade-in but I would take it home on trade plates.
So it wouldn't surprise me if all these big companies had their own little exemptions with the Receiver, especially if the company was offering jobs in an area with high unemployment.
What applies to us plebs doesn't necessarily apply higher up the business scale.
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Not mentioning any company's or names but I know for a fact some dudes running 10 vans 6 vans providing all tools uniforms etc
Yet the window cleaners are self employed I know as I worked with someone the other day who used to work for a big fish from this very forum and he told me how it worked just like that
Don't get me wrong if it's legal fine as it's better but surely this isn't allowed what fascinates me is some of the guys have several vans and produce a serious turn over
Unless I'm missing something id love to know if you can actually do this as the reason why I haven't employed is because of the Liabiltys of being an employer but now I'm curious to know if you can do it
There a various perfectly legal structures one can use, however employment doesn't need to be the burden so often portrayed, there are many happy and successful employers, the "business structure" is no guarantee of success.
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End of the day you can do what you want long as you don't get caught. How many will be paying lads cash in hand, fiddling taxes etc. Loads
It's rife in self employment. I knew of a roofer claiming minimum wage as an income but got 2 vans and two staff.
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They get away with it because HMRC know that in pretty much all cases that it's not worth their time effort and money enforcing it.
Everything is treated like a business now...if HMRC won't get a return on time invested in investigations it won't bother and will turn a blind eye. However if you make one small mistake on your return and they find out that's easy for them....
.easy peasy money
They used to be much tougher, there is absolutely no way you'd get away with taking someone on as a sole worker on a self employed basis back in the late ninetys 2000 s Inland Revenue as it was then would literally throw the book at you and your probably spend some jail time for employers ni evasion.
Since they merged all departments to HMRC sacked off many of the highly qualified tax experts within inland revenue and then i think it was in 2003 or 4 not sure...they made tax arrears a civil matter and no longer a crown matter meaning you no longer went to prison for tax arrears unless you committed tax fraud which would be under a different charge all together.
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so basically we're saying that they are wrong but able to get away with it ?
vat reg LTD company everything in order except they're classing emps as self employed
logic is telling me they must know a legal loop hole and maybe have a contact at hmrc that has confirmed in writing if this is actually legal some way or there is a way to get around it we all need to know ..
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Not mentioning any company's or names but I know for a fact some dudes running 10 vans 6 vans providing all tools uniforms etc
Yet the window cleaners are self employed I know as I worked with someone the other day who used to work for a big fish from this very forum and he told me how it worked just like that
Don't get me wrong if it's legal fine as it's better but surely this isn't allowed what fascinates me is some of the guys have several vans and produce a serious turn over
Unless I'm missing something id love to know if you can actually do this as the reason why I haven't employed is because of the Liabiltys of being an employer but now I'm curious to know if you can do it
Why don't you mind your own bloody business! Your never going to have the headache of running 10 vans! Keep blodding along with your DIY 650 Ltr and put you neck in.
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Not mentioning any company's or names but I know for a fact some dudes running 10 vans 6 vans providing all tools uniforms etc
Yet the window cleaners are self employed I know as I worked with someone the other day who used to work for a big fish from this very forum and he told me how it worked just like that
Don't get me wrong if it's legal fine as it's better but surely this isn't allowed what fascinates me is some of the guys have several vans and produce a serious turn over
Unless I'm missing something id love to know if you can actually do this as the reason why I haven't employed is because of the Liabiltys of being an employer but now I'm curious to know if you can do it
Why don't you mind your own bloody business! Your never going to have the headache of running 10 vans! Keep blodding along with your DIY 650 Ltr and put you neck in.
who said anything about owning 10 vans its about knowing if this is actually allowed so others could also do it as its been a hurdle
on a small scale of 1 van or 2 vans.
and large company's doing it with 10 vans who are LTD makes me think its maybe possible as someone else mentioned drivers working for company's are self employed some saying its wrong but we are maybe missing something that we should know considering the above
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It's illegal and gradually being cracked down on
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/03/hmrc-steps-up-investigation-into-employment-status-of-hermes-couriers?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
And as for "mind your own business" well it is our business if competitors gain an unfair advantage by not giving their workers entitlements.
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It's illegal and gradually being cracked down on
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/03/hmrc-steps-up-investigation-into-employment-status-of-hermes-couriers?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
And as for "mind your own business" well it is our business if competitors gain an unfair advantage by not giving their workers entitlements.
thank you .end of the day it isn't fair that there's an easy way for the larger window cleaning establishments and the smaller guys need to face tremendous liability and risks compared to them employing the correct way
But no one who's actually employing self employed in that manner is commenting or explaining how they feel it's legal
Perhaps they know they must remain under the radar as much as possible
But again what shocks me is they are far from under the Radar plenty of self employed window cleaners one whom I know and told me how he's terms of employment was purely self employed driving their van told to do certain hours etc etc
Company's are Ltd vat registered also I mean possibly 1m turn over
They may even have someone at hmrc that deals only wit their tax affairs big company's who off set self employed invoices against thier profits so hmrc have to know yet it's okay. This is why I'm starting to wonder what are we missing ...
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What we are missing is an employment tribunal.
All it will take is one fed up self-employed "employee" to take one of these companies to tribunal to demand things like paid holiday, pension etc, and that "non-employer" will be royally screwed.
They'll be forced to compensate all of their non-employees for the years of not giving what their entitled to, and they'll be forced to employ their current workers properly.
Can't wait.
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wait and see what the court case with uber does , nothing wrong with having self employed staff , we work like that for years at dhl
the government and the courts wont dare change the law , there over a million people working like this and do you think there going to want a million people on the dole with what looks like a poor out look for people on the way , higher interest rates coming in next mouth along with the low pound and high prices its not looking good
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Do you think that if the government forced uber, yodel, DHL and the like to pay sick pay etc they'd just pull out of the UK?
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Do you think that if the government forced uber, yodel, DHL and the like to pay sick pay etc they'd just pull out of the UK?
No and it's an empty threat. If they're making money they'll stay.
Sick pay will just have to be paid from the money at the top. It's the workers- those with the least- that are being blackmailed by those with the most.
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I think its unfair that bigger firms have to be vat registered and small sole traders get away with paying no vat to hmrc, why do you think bigger firms are going to try to level the playing field against sole traders who get away with paying far less tax
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It’s not the small firms that get away with paying VAT, it’s their customers that don’t pay the VAT. The bigger businesses are just the unpaid tax collectors.
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It’s not the small firms that get away with paying VAT, it’s their customers that don’t pay the VAT. The bigger businesses are just the unpaid tax collectors.
so my firm who charges £12 for a house which is £10 plus vat is the same as a sole trader who is not vat registered who gets to keep the full £12?
every firm or sole trader should be vat reg to make it fair
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Small, sole traders already pay VAT on vehicles, poles, ladders etc.
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It’s not the small firms that get away with paying VAT, it’s their customers that don’t pay the VAT. The bigger businesses are just the unpaid tax collectors.
so my firm who charges £12 for a house which is £10 plus vat is the same as a sole trader who is not vat registered who gets to keep the full £12?
every firm or sole trader should be vat reg to make it fair
So when your firm buys a piece of equipment they get the vat back a sole trader does not
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just to make it fair.......
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Not mentioning any company's or names but I know for a fact some dudes running 10 vans 6 vans providing all tools uniforms etc
Yet the window cleaners are self employed I know as I worked with someone the other day who used to work for a big fish from this very forum and he told me how it worked just like that
Don't get me wrong if it's legal fine as it's better but surely this isn't allowed what fascinates me is some of the guys have several vans and produce a serious turn over
Unless I'm missing something id love to know if you can actually do this as the reason why I haven't employed is because of the Liabiltys of being an employer but now I'm curious to know if you can do it
Why don't you mind your own bloody business! Your never going to have the headache of running 10 vans! Keep blodding along with your DIY 650 Ltr and put you neck in.
Last warning Tony Day. Any more abusive posts and you will be on the naughty step.
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Small company's or sole traders are below the vat threshold they are turning over less money
Let's keep it on topic which is about company's small or large getting away with employing self employed as if they are employed for most it's the larger company's that seem to do it really well,
What we are saying is it's down to one of the employees to take them to a tribunal for holiday pay ssp etc
But I think realistically that won't happen and those company's are hedging their bets
Is it really just down to that or can they do it? I'll tell you why as cos if you can id like to employee like that strait away but I won't as I know it's not 100% right so I won't
What would be good is if one of those large company's would comment and tell us how they are doing it and how it's legal I noticed none have commented
Oh thanks and gold for noticing we got such fantastic admins haven't we ;)
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People may be employed on a self-employed basis by cleaning companies, but his arguement is dependant on whether or not those who are employed are employed SOLELY by the national company. If they also have their own work which they manage, fund and operate at their discretion then cleaning work that they do through another company can also be viewed as self-employment work.
Don’t assume it’s their only work, it may well not be.
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People may be employed on a self-employed basis by cleaning companies, but his arguement is dependant on whether or not those who are employed are employed SOLELY by the national company. If they also have their own work which they manage, fund and operate at their discretion then cleaning work that they do through another company can also be viewed as self-employment work.
Don’t assume it’s their only work, it may well not be.
As I said in the OP I met someone who worked for a large well known establishment from this forum it was full time work only job van uniform tools everything supplied he himself felt It wa wierd how he wasn't employed and left as he wanted a stable wage and holiday pay etc he was paid as if he was a subby a percentage of the job but using all vans tools uniforms etc
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I'll tell you why as cos if you can id like to employee like that strait away but I won't as I know it's not 100% right so I won't
As mentioned previously employment does not have to be the burden so often portrayed, why not use that route?
However in answer to your question mini cab operators including UBER use a third party often owned by them to rent vehicles to drivers, in addition they act as agents providing work and collecting payments on behalf of drivers, they in turn deduct their fee prior to reimbursing drivers.
I trust that makes sense, no reason why this couldn't work in our industry.
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companies have no obligation to check weather the 'self employed' worker is actually doing other work, they may or may not ask, but it will say that the worker is FREE to work for themselves or others and decline work from the said company - but that then boils down the how brave the worker is in respect of refusing work only to be frozen out long term - much the same can be said for companies who have only one or two big customers if they don't except price cuts etc.. they lose the work
So these companies are doing nothing wrong as far as the letter of the law goes - but morally ? just like zero hour contracts it's bad news for the employee
as Spruce pointed out previously working over 48 hrs - your free not to sign it but those who didn't suddenly had no overtime, received disciplinary action over the smallest thing then finally left ( all of their own free will of course )
Darran
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People may be employed on a self-employed basis by cleaning companies, but his arguement is dependant on whether or not those who are employed are employed SOLELY by the national company. If they also have their own work which they manage, fund and operate at their discretion then cleaning work that they do through another company can also be viewed as self-employment work.
Don’t assume it’s their only work, it may well not be.
I used to sub work from a company that varied between about £350 and £600 a month. It was regular too. I was given a list of jobs and their approximate frequencies and left to get on with it. End of the month I submitted the invoices and got a cheque back several weeks later. The point of it is that even though I was under a very limited amount of control regarding the prices and when to clean, my own work amounts were far greater than that. I could usually work it in with my own work (up to a point) to keep travel miles down.