Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: hank jr on April 01, 2017, 11:32:54 am
-
Im planning on setting up a water purifying kit in my shed and then pumping onto my vehicle. Im new to this so any advice would be much appreciated. I was thinking of just buying a waterbutt to put in my shed, and buying the gear to clean the water. Would this be ok to do? Can anyone tell me exactly what i would need to do this?
-
Hi Hank
Simple question but with many different answers. Do the following to help you and others answer those questions you have in more detail.
Check your waters TDS to see if you need an RO system or just DI.
Work out how much water you need per day to go out and work with.
How big is the shed? (my opinion fit the biggest holding tank you can comfortably get in there)
How quickly do you want to produce the water?
Is your work local enough where you could refill say at lunchtime if needed?
How far away will the shed be from your vehicle?
Is there an electric supply to the shed?
How will the water supply be supplied to the shed?
What vehicle will you be using? What's its payload?
And a crucial one, What's your total budget?
From my experience it's easy to waste money unless you sit down and write out what you actually think your going use and need so you buy right first time round.
-
if your tap tds is under 050 like mine(029 usually)then DI only is all that is required.saves a lot of faffing about.its very quick to purify your water(around 60 mins to purify 500L).
-
so first step is get a TDS reader and check my water?
-
so first step is get a TDS reader and check my water?
Yep
-
so first step is get a TDS reader and check my water?
Yep
Can you recommend an accurate TDS to buy?
-
so first step is get a TDS reader and check my water?
Yep
Can you recommend an accurate TDS to buy?
Just Google search Gardiner Pole Systems or Pure freedom or Gaps Water etc and they sell them along with a few other wfp suppliers.
I have a steady mains water tds of between 75-98ppm. I use an RO set up with 450ltrs pr day. A 1000ltr tank in my shed. It gives me enough water ticking along all week and the weekend recovers to a full tank and I have to turn the flow off.
On the shed size, could you fit an IBC tank through the doorway? They are cheap and plentiful.
-
http://www.daqua.co.uk/testmeters.htm second one down.
-
http://www.daqua.co.uk/testmeters.htm second one down.
Just bought it - thanks for your help. So depending on the reading of the TDS will determine my water set up in my shed.
-
so first step is get a TDS reader and check my water?
Yep
Can you recommend an accurate TDS to buy?
Just Google search Gardiner Pole Systems or Pure freedom or Gaps Water etc and they sell them along with a few other wfp suppliers.
I have a steady mains water tds of between 75-98ppm. I use an RO set up with 450ltrs pr day. A 1000ltr tank in my shed. It gives me enough water ticking along all week and the weekend recovers to a full tank and I have to turn the flow off.
On the shed size, could you fit an IBC tank through the doorway? They are cheap and plentiful.
I just measured my shed door way - its only 78cm wide....damn it. I cant get one of those IBC tanks in - they are 1 meter wide. Will have to look for a tall, thinner water but or something.
-
so first step is get a TDS reader and check my water?
Yep
Can you recommend an accurate TDS to buy?
Just Google search Gardiner Pole Systems or Pure freedom or Gaps Water etc and they sell them along with a few other wfp suppliers.
I have a steady mains water tds of between 75-98ppm. I use an RO set up with 450ltrs pr day. A 1000ltr tank in my shed. It gives me enough water ticking along all week and the weekend recovers to a full tank and I have to turn the flow off.
On the shed size, could you fit an IBC tank through the doorway? They are cheap and plentiful.
I just measured my shed door way - its only 78cm wide....damn it. I cant get one of those IBC tanks in - they are 1 meter wide. Will have to look for a tall, thinner water but or something.
Get a 1000 ltr water tank for your shed (not ibc if no room) . More expensive than an ibc BUT will solve your problem.
This is 59cm wide
http://www.wydaleproducts.co.uk/products/prod/59/1000LitreUprightBaffledTank
-
http://www.daqua.co.uk/testmeters.htm second one down.
Just bought it - thanks for your help. So depending on the reading of the TDS will determine my water set up in my shed.
Thats what you need to work out first yes, after that then you will know what your going to actually need to make the water.
-
Get a 1000 ltr water tank for your shed (not ibc if no room) . More expensive than an ibc BUT will solve your problem.
This is 59cm wide
http://www.wydaleproducts.co.uk/products/prod/59/1000LitreUprightBaffledTank
[/quote]
Any idea how much these are? cant see prices anywere?
-
Have a little look on eBay
-
If not, stick 2 300ltr water butts in there.
But first check your water tds to see if you need to bother with this in the first placr
-
This one on eBay is 67cm wide
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ecosure-1050-Litre-1000-Ltr-V1-Baffled-Window-Cleaning-Car-Valeting-Water-Tank-/291143183532?hash=item43c97c6cac%3Ag%3A3MoAAOxyHIlTbNH0&_trkparms=pageci%253Abc0c9d99-1708-11e7-971a-74dbd1802495%257Cparentrq%253A2ac4d38215b0aa411d6580baffff1223%257Ciid%253A1
-
This one on eBay is 67cm wide
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ecosure-1050-Litre-1000-Ltr-V1-Baffled-Window-Cleaning-Car-Valeting-Water-Tank-/291143183532?hash=item43c97c6cac%3Ag%3A3MoAAOxyHIlTbNH0&_trkparms=pageci%253Abc0c9d99-1708-11e7-971a-74dbd1802495%257Cparentrq%253A2ac4d38215b0aa411d6580baffff1223%257Ciid%253A1
£400 😱 that's a bit steep
-
Does the water tank HAVE to be in the shed? Can it be outside the shed?
I can put one of this IBC tanks outside my shed. And put the RO inside the shed ?
-
This one on eBay is 67cm wide
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ecosure-1050-Litre-1000-Ltr-V1-Baffled-Window-Cleaning-Car-Valeting-Water-Tank-/291143183532?hash=item43c97c6cac%3Ag%3A3MoAAOxyHIlTbNH0&_trkparms=pageci%253Abc0c9d99-1708-11e7-971a-74dbd1802495%257Cparentrq%253A2ac4d38215b0aa411d6580baffff1223%257Ciid%253A1
£400 😱 that's a bit steep
welcome to wfp costs ;D
-
Does the water tank HAVE to be in the shed? Can it be outside the shed?
doesn't necessary have to be in the shed but it would have to be covered else it would go green from the sunlight, also what would you do in winter when stuff freezes?
Get your tds done and then worry about the rest after..
you havent said how much water you need a day, what vehicle you will use, are you going to wfp the whole house or just upstairs? If you just ask "what do i need" your going to get lots of people throwing stuff at you which will end up confusing you even more. You can have something as small as a 15lt backpack and barrels or a full blown 1000lt crash tested hot water machine and everything inbetween.
Give as much information as possible mate its easier to steer you in the right direction then.
-
This one on eBay is 67cm wide
http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ecosure-1050-Litre-1000-Ltr-V1-Baffled-Window-Cleaning-Car-Valeting-Water-Tank-/291143183532?hash=item43c97c6cac%3Ag%3A3MoAAOxyHIlTbNH0&_trkparms=pageci%253Abc0c9d99-1708-11e7-971a-74dbd1802495%257Cparentrq%253A2ac4d38215b0aa411d6580baffff1223%257Ciid%253A1
£400 😱 that's a bit steep
Shop around, a lot of stuff is start up costs , you've only gotta buy it once.... and the rest is running costs ;D
You can get a black one if going outside but then its more likely to freeze and cause further problems
-
Does the water tank HAVE to be in the shed? Can it be outside the shed?
doesn't necessary have to be in the shed but it would have to be covered else it would go green from the sunlight, also what would you do in winter when stuff freezes?
That did cross my mind ....I'm still learning bare with me ha ha
-
You've gotta have a bit of dosh to start up
-
You've gotta have a bit of dosh to start up
ive got a few quid but i also like a good deal :)
-
As above, first determine your tds level of the water. Also if you do need to go down the route of a RO, yes you can store that in the garagr but it would be worth insulating it come winter months. But its also advisable to look on ebay for a water pressure gauge as the water supply from flat to the garage may want a booster pump, which are easily sourced on ebay as well and relatively cheap.
Storing the ibc tank outside, yes you can. I have mine in the garden just outside my rear window up against my house. However i opted for a black ibc which will prevent water going green. Ive slanted some boards on top for a run off for the rain etc and boards at the side for a slight insulation again. Ive not experienced a bad winter (only done this method 1yr n half with ibc tank), but even then it would only be top inch at most freezing. If had no protection, which means your starting with really cold water on a really cold day, so could possibly freeze quicker in hoses etc.
But first sort out water tds and then decide which method? Trolley or van as in your other post. A long with how much water do you think you would need.
I sometimes use a trolley, but because i have a van system i dont worry about reserving water. So using a gardner backpack on a trolley, cleaning a full house (average 3bed house) could last 2.5 houses.
If a full house plus conservatory, then not quite that plus 3/4 of next house.
If upstairs only and reserving your water you could get 4 - 5 average size house cleaned per full. To give a slight idea.
Most would use 350ltr in a van system, but many and myself included have opted for 500ltrs which means you may not run out of water in a working day. But thats dependant on the payload of your vehicle.
So you can see theres alot to take into account. But we're all here to help and can do so better once you decide on a course of action
-
p1w1 is spot on I reckon. You need to answer his excellent set of questions so people who post can specifically answer your needs. Otherwise you will be drowned in advice that may not be relevant to you. :D
-
I use a couple of 240L wheelie bins to store my water in and a Clarke submersible pump to pump the water from these into the van tank. Wheelie bins are more manoeuvrable than water butts, also I don't think you'll get the same algae problems as you would with an IBC tank (since they are not transparent). I actually store my bins outside but they would do equally well in a shed.
-
I use a couple of 240L wheelie bins to store my water in and a Clarke submersible pump to pump the water from these into the van tank. Wheelie bins are more manoeuvrable than water butts, also I don't think you'll get the same algae problems as you would with an IBC tank (since they are not transparent). I actually store my bins outside but they would do equally well in a shed.
Do you know i actually thought of that but didn't want to say it ha ha. Where can i get them? Did you buy yours off the council or something?
-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1100l-Wheelie-Bin-/272584608433?hash=item3f774f0ab1:g:eewAAOSwTuJYwriI
-
I use a couple of 240L wheelie bins to store my water in and a Clarke submersible pump to pump the water from these into the van tank. Wheelie bins are more manoeuvrable than water butts, also I don't think you'll get the same algae problems as you would with an IBC tank (since they are not transparent). I actually store my bins outside but they would do equally well in a shed.
I can get FREE grey wheelie bin off the council - only 250L though. Good call - Now thats a deal ;)
-
You can also have an RO system in the van and do away with an IBC in your shed altogether!so many options. ;D
Tds first then you can plan your next course of action.
-
You can also have an RO system in the van and do away with an IBC in your shed altogether!so many options. ;D
Tds first then you can plan your next course of action.
For first several months this is what i did. My mrs didnt want an ibc in garden, thankfull later she did anf hence i went for a black ibc tank.
I did this vid ages ago to show;
https://youtu.be/PFlQZ86Og94
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1491141654_Screenshot_2017-04-02-14-59-48.png)
-
I use a couple of 240L wheelie bins to store my water in and a Clarke submersible pump to pump the water from these into the van tank. Wheelie bins are more manoeuvrable than water butts, also I don't think you'll get the same algae problems as you would with an IBC tank (since they are not transparent). I actually store my bins outside but they would do equally well in a shed.
Do you know i actually thought of that but didn't want to say it ha ha. Where can i get them? Did you buy yours off the council or something?
I bought mine from Bins Direct: https://binsdirect.com/
-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1100l-Wheelie-Bin-/272584608433?hash=item3f774f0ab1:g:eewAAOSwTuJYwriI
I'm not sure the castors on this bin would support 1100 litres of water (that's 1.1 ton). I think your better off with a two-wheeled bin which sits on the ground where you tilt it to wheel it along. Such as this:
https://binsdirect.com/wheelie-bins/two-wheeled-bins/240-litre-grey-wheelie-bin-240ltgrey?returnurl=%2fwheelie-bins%2ftwo-wheeled-bins%2f%3fgridmode%3dtrue%23240ltgrey
You can get a 360L but that's more than double the price of 2 x 240L.
-
ok my TDS meter came today, and i tested my water. It reads 400 ppm.
So guys what set up do i need ?
Thanks in advance
-
ok my TDS meter came today, and i tested my water. It reads 400 ppm.
So guys what set up do i need ?
Thanks in advance
Your going to need a 4040 RO, a double 11ltr DI and a decent water pressure from your tap, as has already been mentioned
there's far too much conflicting info on this now so I would go to one of the reputable sellers and get a ready to go system thats
suitable to your needs, get them to throw in a bit of training on how to use and maintain it.
-
Next thing to do is test your water pressure. Water pressure gauge can be got off e-bay, screwfix, plumbing center etc about a tenner. If the water will be supplied from outside tap ( i take it it will be) take a reading while a tap is running in the house. Something like this http://www.screwfix.com/p/monument-tools-mains-water-pressure-test-gauge/82412 just make sure its going to fit your outside tap.
After that you need to see what your flow rate is. Same as above do it with another tap running in the house, run for a minute then see how much water you have.
THEN you can start looking at R/O systems that will be suited to you (you will definitely need an R/O set up).
-
Next thing to do is test your water pressure. Water pressure gauge can be got off e-bay, screwfix, plumbing center etc about a tenner. If the water will be supplied from outside tap ( i take it it will be) take a reading while a tap is running in the house. Something like this http://www.screwfix.com/p/monument-tools-mains-water-pressure-test-gauge/82412 just make sure its going to fit your outside tap.
After that you need to see what your flow rate is. Same as above do it with another tap running in the house, run for a minute then see how much water you have.
ok thanks....will pick one up tomorrow from toolstation. But i know my water pressure is p poor when there is another tap on in the house....
THEN you can start looking at R/O systems that will be suited to you (you will definitely need an R/O set up).
-
Best to see what it roughly is really. I find if you get these basic things done it helps in choosing what's best going to work for you and save money in the long run instead of just splashing out on a load of equipment then finding things could have been done better/cheaper. Ive probably wasted £1000s over the years ( and i bet others have) to end up with the system etc i have today.
-
400 tds :'(
-
400 tds :'(
Mines around 560-610 :o
-
400 tds :'(
i know ???
-
:'(
400 tds :'(
Mines around 560-610 :o
-
Best to see what it roughly is really. I find if you get these basic things done it helps in choosing what's best going to work for you and save money in the long run instead of just splashing out on a load of equipment then finding things could have been done better/cheaper. Ive probably wasted £1000s over the years ( and i bet others have) to end up with the system etc i have today.
Thanks for your help, i will be back tomorrow with my pressure. ;)
-
OK , got my pressure meter today.
Here is reading before kitchen tap is on.
-
And this is with kitchen tap on
-
Thats not a bad mains pressure a lot better then mine was, whats your flow rate?
-
Thats not a bad mains pressure a lot better then mine was, whats your flow rate?
I dont know? How do i find out?
-
just run the tap for a minute and measure it ;D, ..you just need to know how many litres a minute you roughly get.
-
Can you see the water level?
I think its about 6 liters a min ???
-
thats pretty low.
How much pure water are you wanting a day for work?
-
thats pretty low.
How much pure water are you wanting a day for work?
350 lites should do it...
-
What I did due to space is link four 100 litre water butts and so I can fit them into my shed. It takes up very little space the links I got off e-bay and joined the at a level where my hand could reach them. The joints are plastic fitting.
-
Well it depends on your budget and if you want to future proof things to what system you get they all have their pro's and con's. If it was me i would go for a 40/40 or 40/21 system. You can also get the cheaper 300gpd systems any of the above are going to make enough water for you.
Ive had both in the past 300gpd system and now currently a 40/40 system and the 40/40 is far better in my opinion and is the common one most people probably use.
Pro's for the 40/40 or 40/21 (all the numbers reflect the size of the membrane 40/40 is a 40 inch membrane 40/21 21 inch membrane)
They are easy to setup you have 1 pipe going in at 1 end and 2 at the other (1 for the pure and 1 for the waste water) all half inch hose.
They are very efficient and can produce water quickly
Its easier to narrow down any problems you might come across then the 300gpd ones
Cons, they are more expensive to buy and the membranes cost more to replace (although maintained properly it should last you years for the amount of water you want to use)
The 350gpd ones are pretty cheap and will still still make enough water for you but they are not as efficient and ive just found in the past with the smaller 1/4 inch tubing and the need for 3 membranes connected together if you have issues its sometimes harder to narrow any faults down.
Also because your tds is high the 40/40's tend to get your tds lower then a 300gpd before it goes into your di resin (so saving on resin over the year).
For example in my old lock up my tds was about 385ppm and the 300gpd r/o got the tds down to roughly about 25-30ppm before going into the di resin, in my new lock up my tds is 560-600 and my 40/40 gets the tds down to 17ppm before di vessel.
if you go here http://www.daqua.co.uk/ro_systems.htm you will see all 3 systems mentioned above and what they roughly cost.
Also take into account if you're on a water meter, with your high tds you will need to set your pure to waste ratio to around 65% -70% waste to 30-35% pure so basically every 100lt of mains water going into your membrane you will only make about 30-35lt of pure the rest goes down the drain. You could set it to say 50/50 but that just means you're going to work your membrane harder so it wont last as long, so you need to see which way is more cost effective for you.
All those systems come with the 2 pre filters you will need before the water goes into your membrane (1 sediment and 1 carbon filter) these are to protect your membrane. The sediment is self explanatory it catches any bits of sediment the carbon one removes the chlorine etc in the water that can kill the membrane. Both need changing from time to time depending on how much mains water goes through them but there not that expensive (but important). Personally i have the sediment filter in a clear housing as its easy then to see when it needs changing without having to take the filter out (as it starts turning green).
Once you've decided which one your edging towards best to ring them up and they will be really helpfull.
there is this place ( very helpful guy and wont sell you want you dont need) http://www.daqua.co.uk/ro_systems.htm
A company called gaps water same as above very helpful and know there stuff too. Personally i find daqua slightly cheaper.
It would also be best to mention your pressure and flow rate to them as im not sure if you may need a booster pump your pressure is good (55psi) and probably suitable but r/o membranes work best at about 80psi.
You will also need a d/i resin bottle to bring your tds to 0 (this goes in between your holding tank and the pure outlet on your membrane and a bag of DI resin (an 11lt vessel would be ok for you, ideally to help the resin last longer its better to have 2 but not a necessity and dont worry about that right now).
Just to add you could also use any of these systems set up in your van too.
Hope that wasn't to confusing, any questions fire away (the above is just my opinion and findings from experience)
-
Well it depends on your budget and if you want to future proof things to what system you get they all have their pro's and con's. If it was me i would go for a 40/40 or 40/21 system. You can also get the cheaper 300gpd systems any of the above are going to make enough water for you.
Ive had both in the past 300gpd system and now currently a 40/40 system and the 40/40 is far better in my opinion and is the common one most people probably use.
Pro's for the 40/40 or 40/21 (all the numbers reflect the size of the membrane 40/40 is a 40 inch membrane 40/21 21 inch membrane)
They are easy to setup you have 1 pipe going in at 1 end and 2 at the other (1 for the pure and 1 for the waste water) all half inch hose.
They are very efficient and can produce water quickly
Its easier to narrow down any problems you might come across then the 300gpd ones
Cons, they are more expensive to buy and the membranes cost more to replace (although maintained properly it should last you years for the amount of water you want to use)
The 350gpd ones are pretty cheap and will still still make enough water for you but they are not as efficient and ive just found in the past with the smaller 1/4 inch tubing and the need for 3 membranes connected together if you have issues its sometimes harder to narrow any faults down.
Also because your tds is high the 40/40's tend to get your tds lower then a 300gpd before it goes into your di resin (so saving on resin over the year).
For example in my old lock up my tds was about 385ppm and the 300gpd r/o got the tds down to roughly about 25-30ppm before going into the di resin, in my new lock up my tds is 560-600 and my 40/40 gets the tds down to 17ppm before di vessel.
if you go here http://www.daqua.co.uk/ro_systems.htm you will see all 3 systems mentioned above and what they roughly cost.
Also take into account if you're on a water meter, with your high tds you will need to set your pure to waste ratio to around 65% -70% waste to 30-35% pure so basically every 100lt of mains water going into your membrane you will only make about 30-35lt of pure the rest goes down the drain. You could set it to say 50/50 but that just means you're going to work your membrane harder so it wont last as long, so you need to see which way is more cost effective for you.
All those systems come with the 2 pre filters you will need before the water goes into your membrane (1 sediment and 1 carbon filter) these are to protect your membrane. The sediment is self explanatory it catches any bits of sediment the carbon one removes the chlorine etc in the water that can kill the membrane. Both need changing from time to time depending on how much mains water goes through them but there not that expensive (but important). Personally i have the sediment filter in a clear housing as its easy then to see when it needs changing without having to take the filter out (as it starts turning green).
Once you've decided which one your edging towards best to ring them up and they will be really helpfull.
there is this place ( very helpful guy and wont sell you want you dont need) http://www.daqua.co.uk/ro_systems.htm
A company called gaps water same as above very helpful and know there stuff too. Personally i find daqua slightly cheaper.
It would also be best to mention your pressure and flow rate to them as im not sure if you may need a booster pump your pressure is good (55psi) and probably suitable but r/o membranes work best at about 80psi.
You will also need a d/i resin bottle to bring your tds to 0 (this goes in between your holding tank and the pure outlet on your membrane and a bag of DI resin (an 11lt vessel would be ok for you, ideally to help the resin last longer its better to have 2 but not a necessity and dont worry about that right now).
Just to add you could also use any of these systems set up in your van too.
Hope that wasn't to confusing, any questions fire away (the above is just my opinion and findings from experience)
Well that is some serious time consuming help you just gave there. Thanks very much for taking the time to write all this.
So would I be better buying my equipment here rather than pure freedom? Is the quality just as good with either company?
-
Yeah there all much the same..
Pure Freedom
Gaps Water
Daqua
These are all reputable companies that sell good quality systems (probably all the same). Personally i use Doug at Daqua and still get my resin from him nowadays. Always next day delivery i've found, and seemed the cheapest for the 40/40 systems also few years back had an issue with a faulty membrane for the 300gpd system and it was replaced next day no questions asked to keep me running.
But any of the above will give you good advice really just personal preference.
Just to add there are 2 main types of membrane hf4 and hf5 i would tend to go with the hf5 as this works best at around 80psi where as the hf4 needs to be around 100psi i believe to work best. I find the Axeon made membranes ones are of a very good quality.
As your water pressure is around 55psi then the hf5 will be the closest suited but i would ask them in regards to your flow rate if a booster pump is needed. I opted for a booster pump just so i could get the maximum from the membrane as my mains pressure was lower than yours.
But speak to any of the above and they will advise you best.
-
May sound obvious but also bare in mind how far away your shed is from your van as your going to have to transfer the water to it. If your going to need loads of transfer hose this will take up loads of room in the shed. You could even set the system up on a sack barrow and have it fill straight into the vans tank or fit the system in your van. Then just have a shut off solenoid so when its filled the tank it will shut the water off so the tank won't overflow ( i would get one of these anyway no matter were you put your system). A 40/40 system would probably fill a 350lt tank in under 3 hours or less
-
And ones have commented in the past how they dont find this forum helpful.
Theres plenty of great and detailed advice on here. Shame it cant be book marked somehow in the search bar for all newbies to find, as that was a good answer p1w1.
I switched over 2yrs ago and opted for the purefreedom 450 (3×150) gpd 500ltr diy system. But with tinkering and advice from here and on you tube, you soon start to pick up great advice and find your feet with it.
I opted for this with a booster pump filling up a ibc tank mostly due to the cost of it. Im a tight yorkshireman lol. A couple of months back i needed to replace my membranes and it only cost just over £100 to replace all 3. It was this running cost that made me pick this option.
-
Vyair are a fantastic company to deal with
http://www.vyair.com/Scripts/default.asp