Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Harry Roberts on November 13, 2016, 08:41:03 am

Title: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Harry Roberts on November 13, 2016, 08:41:03 am
Hi ,
I've seen on flea bay you can buy new IBC tank with heating pad and tank thermal jacket to prevent heat loss. Is anyone using this or something similar. I wonder what the cost of heating would be.
Might be with getting two in of these in garage to alternate.

H
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 13, 2016, 09:46:47 am
Do you mean these  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IBC-Tank-Heating-Pad-Insulating-Jacket-New-IBC-Cover-Heating-Mat-IBC-Container-/281632532624?var=&hash=item41929b6890:m:mbSiklkmyg2cTdtbQpWPtTQ


Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: AuRavelling79 on November 13, 2016, 09:57:23 am
Looks good. You could use it for frost protection or just enough to make hoses supple in winter (say 25 degrees). Once full and warm it would retain much of it's heat for days.

Maybe look at economy 7 heating especially as it uses 1400W.
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: chris turner on November 13, 2016, 10:31:01 am
Not sure why tank suppliers havnt jumped on the bandwagon yet and started selling tanks prefitted with heating elements.
Seems alot of guys are going down this road as probably the cheapest and safest way to heat water.
I would certainly buy one, I'm not diy confident enough to fit an element myself.
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Shrek on November 13, 2016, 10:33:56 am
Not sure why tank suppliers havnt jumped on the bandwagon yet and started selling tanks prefitted with heating elements.
Seems alot of guys are going down this road as probably the cheapest and safest way to heat water.
I would certainly buy one, I'm not diy confident enough to fit an element myself.

+1 , I'd buy a jacket for my tank
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Harry Roberts on November 13, 2016, 10:35:07 am
Do you mean these  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IBC-Tank-Heating-Pad-Insulating-Jacket-New-IBC-Cover-Heating-Mat-IBC-Container-/281632532624?var=&hash=item41929b6890:m:mbSiklkmyg2cTdtbQpWPtTQ


281634380112 Was the item no I saw.  I think much the same.
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Clever Forum Name on November 13, 2016, 11:17:15 am
Heated jacket is £800 and after seeing the results there's no way I'd use one. 

Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Soupy on November 13, 2016, 11:29:15 am
Heated jacket is £800 and after seeing the results there's no way I'd use one.

Where did you see the results?
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Dave Willis on November 13, 2016, 11:30:30 am
"If full power is available to heat up water without any heat losses to the environment it would take 50 hours to heat the water from 10°C to 70°C."

70 would be bloomin hot but 50 hours?

Fitting an element to your van tank is dead easy and far cheaper, cost me about seventy quid including an insulating jacket. Heating to 30 degrees is about 12kw hours of electric every night. 650L
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 13, 2016, 12:13:22 pm
The ibc insulation jacket doesn’t look like it goes underneath the ibc tank itself where most of the heat would be lost surely?
Likewise the heat pad or heated insulated jacket depending what you buy?

That's got to be the most inefficient and expensive way to heat pure water for wfp work if you ask me.

Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Og on November 13, 2016, 12:34:51 pm
A mate uses these for brewing. Or fermentation rather.
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: p1w1 on November 13, 2016, 01:40:10 pm
The ibc insulation jacket doesn’t look like it goes underneath the ibc tank itself where most of the heat would be lost surely?
Likewise the heat pad or heated insulated jacket depending what you buy?

That's got to be the most inefficient and expensive way to heat pure water for wfp work if you ask me.

last time i was at school i got told heat rises  ;D
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: sunshine windows on November 13, 2016, 01:53:43 pm
A local tank fabricator is manufacturing tanks with virtually zero heat loss, fitted with elements. They work really well, as i know a couple of lads that have them
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Harry Roberts on November 13, 2016, 02:01:43 pm
A local tank fabricator is manufacturing tanks with virtually zero heat loss, fitted with elements. They work really well, as i know a couple of lads that have them

Who making these tanks? Stephen Scargill?
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: sunshine windows on November 13, 2016, 02:21:45 pm
Yes Harry
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 13, 2016, 04:43:23 pm
The ibc insulation jacket doesn’t look like it goes underneath the ibc tank itself where most of the heat would be lost surely?
Likewise the heat pad or heated insulated jacket depending what you buy?

That's got to be the most inefficient and expensive way to heat pure water for wfp work if you ask me.



last time i was at school i got told heat rises  ;D

Yes but what happens when the bottom of the ibc pallet is left uninsulated/open to the elements and there is an air gap between the insulation jacket, metal frame and tank? It's not going to work very efficently is it now  ;D
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: alanwilson on November 13, 2016, 04:54:09 pm
Well unless you have a flow of cold air passing underneath there will be minimal heat loss.

Light a match indoors, feel the difference in heat above and below the flame. Any heat you feel below is a result of radiant heat from the light of the flame. You don't have this source of energy loss with hot water.
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 13, 2016, 05:13:30 pm
Well unless you have a flow of cold air passing underneath there will be minimal heat loss.

Light a match indoors, feel the difference in heat above and below the flame. Any heat you feel below is a result of radiant heat from the light of the flame. You don't have this source of energy loss with hot water.

For example which one would you say has better insulation qualities A or B?

A: http://www.diy.com/departments/mangers-4-piece-cylinder-tank-jacket-l1067m-w450mm-t80mm/26876_BQ.prd?ecamp=Seapla&ppc_type=shopping&ds_kids=92700014010422148&gclid=CjwKEAiAu6DBBRDDr6-e_6698E0SJACvuxnymb5dKi0tRzqtSt0ThOrf9Mz7nlDYiIbTRfOJi2kFKhoCfiTw_wcB&dclid=CIGFlLScptACFYmo7QodVsINHA

B: http://www.screwfix.com/p/rm-direct-cylinder-1050-x-450mm/69843

Anyway the best and most efficent way I've found to heat water for wfp work is on demand and not trying to heat a tank up over night.


 

 
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: alanwilson on November 13, 2016, 08:07:20 pm
You're correct that direct heating is more efficient - heat loss is dependent amongst other things, time - no insulating jacket is 100% thermally non conductive (none that I know off anyway)

As for the 2 you posted I don't know which is more thermally efficient as there are no specs attached. With saying that, all our vans have 2inch insulation board around each tank and over the top but not underneath and at most, the water temp only drops 2 degrees over the working day. Each tank (650ltr)has an immersion heater (3kw) and we preheat each tank to 30celsius each night in winter if it's forecast to freeze overnight. We also recirculate the water through the pumps and hoses back into the tank through the night running the varistreams at 1 so as the hoses etc don't freeze.

Works for us and ensures our guys get to work in the morning.
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 14, 2016, 01:02:41 pm
We have gone a bit of topic from the op but if that works for you then fair play.

I still don't understand fully why the chap wants to heat the water up in his garage ibc storage tanks though. I assume it was to help stop the water freezing as would be a costly and inefficient way if he wanted to heat the water up to use warm water for wfp work surely?

 
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Soupy on November 14, 2016, 01:25:20 pm
We have gone a bit of topic from the op but if that works for you then fair play.

I still don't understand fully why the chap wants to heat the water up in his garage ibc storage tanks though. I assume it was to help stop the water freezing as would be a costly and inefficient way if he wanted to heat the water up to use warm water for wfp work surely?

I could use one of these instead of a heater element in my vehicle.
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 14, 2016, 02:40:29 pm
You could also use one of these if you wanted too  ::)roll http://direct.asda.com/slumberdown-electric-blanket-single/002257085,default,pd.html?cmpid=ppc-_-george-_-ggle-pla-_-OD20BATH_KIDS_FURNISHINGS-_--_-dskwid-s92700014242725428_dc&gclid=CjwKEAiA3qXBBRD4_b_V7ZLFsX4SJAB0AtEVQq8nSqFbnVAVtqYM-F3yJc6ur_eNXQRO9XetGtNCKhoCzSHw_wcB
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: AuRavelling79 on November 14, 2016, 04:21:52 pm
You could also use one of these if you wanted too  ::)roll http://direct.asda.com/slumberdown-electric-blanket-single/002257085,default,pd.html?cmpid=ppc-_-george-_-ggle-pla-_-OD20BATH_KIDS_FURNISHINGS-_--_-dskwid-s92700014242725428_dc&gclid=CjwKEAiA3qXBBRD4_b_V7ZLFsX4SJAB0AtEVQq8nSqFbnVAVtqYM-F3yJc6ur_eNXQRO9XetGtNCKhoCzSHw_wcB

Yebbut that thing is about 60w. The other thing is 1400w.  ::)roll
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 14, 2016, 04:37:00 pm
OK how about this then?  http://www.hottubdiy.co.uk/auto-heater-2kw.html?gclid=CjwKEAiA3qXBBRD4_b_V7ZLFsX4SJAB0AtEV90CHnxUJ9z09gD0T7BJGbvBldNMFyXMnZ7XOzBqhehoCOl7w_wcB

They also do a 3kw version http://www.hottubdiy.co.uk/auto-heater-3kw.html

Simple bit of plumbing and away you go. No more drilling holes in your tank to fit an emersion element. No more cold spots in your baffled tank either as the water will be recalculated back to the tank constantly while it’s on. Could be also used as hose reel frost protection too by hooking it up to the hose reel that runs back into the tank.

If you have ever owned a hot tub you will know how hot the water can get using this type of heater pump.
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 14, 2016, 06:11:55 pm
OK how about this then?   http://www.hottubdiy.co.uk/auto-heater-2kw.html?gclid=CjwKEAiA3qXBBRD4_b_V7ZLFsX4SJAB0AtEV90CHnxUJ9z09gD0T7BJGbvBldNMFyXMnZ7XOzBqhehoCOl7w_wcB

They also do a 3kw version http://www.hottubdiy.co.uk/auto-heater-3kw.html

Simple bit of plumbing and away you go. No more drilling holes in your tank to fit an emersion element. No more cold spots in your baffled tank either as the water will be recalculated back to the tank constantly while it’s on. Could be also used as hose reel frost protection too by hooking it up to the hose reel that runs back into the tank.

If you have ever owned a hot tub you will know how hot the water can get using this type of heater pump.

Got to be worth investigating further surely folks ?  ::)roll
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: AuRavelling79 on November 14, 2016, 08:44:06 pm
Good one Smurf. The hot tub pump heater thing.   ::)roll

 ;D
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 14, 2016, 09:27:45 pm
I even surprise myself at times   ;D
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Dave Willis on November 14, 2016, 10:15:08 pm
Cut the top off your IBC tank, chuck in a bottle of vision and climb in. Hot tub for £100.
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: G & M on November 14, 2016, 11:08:22 pm
Anyone got ideas on how to fit one and how to wire it up. Would it work off of an ordinary socket
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 15, 2016, 01:35:44 pm
Cut the top off your IBC tank, chuck in a bottle of vision and climb in. Hot tub for £100.

I can make my own bubbles in the bath so don't need vision for that   ;D
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 15, 2016, 03:37:59 pm
Anyone got ideas on how to fit one and how to wire it up. Would it work off of an ordinary socket

I've sent them an email to find out if the 3kw version would be suitable for a van tank etc and await their reply.

As for mains hook-up being 3kw as I'm no sparky so would be best to seek professional advice.  However I'm aware some using emersion heater elements in the van tank like to use heavy duty arctic cable as the extension cable and run it off a separate house spur/breaker which is then cabled up to a separate outside waterproof socket to plug into. I'm sure there are electrical regs that must be followed regards to this so like I said before best speak to a sparky to do the electrical side for you so it's done properly and safely.


Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: the king on November 15, 2016, 04:31:37 pm
y dont u just go and speak to stephen scargill off face book he does insalated tanks with  bilt in heaters  ::)roll

Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: HCS on November 15, 2016, 06:53:57 pm
"If full power is available to heat up water without any heat losses to the environment it would take 50 hours to heat the water from 10°C to 70°C."

70 would be bloomin hot but 50 hours?

Fitting an element to your van tank is dead easy and far cheaper, cost me about seventy quid including an insulating jacket. Heating to 30 degrees is about 12kw hours of electric every night. 650L

Is there a thread on here of how to fit an immersion?
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: David Beecroft on November 15, 2016, 07:01:52 pm
My only observation regarding putting a heated pad under the tank is the friction generated by the vehicle movement. In the advert it shows the ibc tank in a static position but even the most solid fixings in a van aren't going to prevent the tank form vibrating and moving slightly. Surely with a short period of time it would mangle the wiring in the pad? ???
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Frankybadboy on November 15, 2016, 08:01:31 pm
A local tank fabricator is manufacturing tanks with virtually zero heat loss, fitted with elements. They work really well, as i know a couple of lads that have them

Who making these tanks? Stephen Scargill?
best of luck  ::)roll ::)roll ::)roll
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 16, 2016, 04:54:29 pm
Well you can scrap that hot tub heater pump idea as was told it would not be anygood  ;D
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: HCS on November 16, 2016, 07:25:45 pm
Why would it not be any good Smurf?
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: nathankaye on November 16, 2016, 09:10:29 pm
Why would it not be any good Smurf?

Thats a pain as was really keen on that idea.
Would i be right in thinking its the volume of water. Lol would i be right in thinking  ::)roll  ive no idea
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 16, 2016, 10:23:14 pm
The chap mentioned something about air locks and the heater would burn out. To be honest I wasn't really listen after he said it would not be suitable.
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: nathankaye on November 16, 2016, 11:24:56 pm
The chap mentioned something about air locks and the heater would burn out. To be honest I wasn't really listen after he said it would not be suitable.

Could he have misunderstood. Thinking that it would be used at the pump end heating water coming out the tank. Rather than it being submerged in a static tank on a timer, using its inbuilt thermostat over night. (Shows my fast unlimted knowledge, as thats how i was gonna use it. May be utterly wrong)
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 16, 2016, 11:55:03 pm
No he understood ok as I was clear in the email I sent him how it was intended to be used.
Also it's an external heater pump not a sumbmersable heater pump you silly billy  ;D
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: nathankaye on November 17, 2016, 12:27:38 am
No he understood ok as I was clear in the email I sent him how it was intended to be used.
Also it's an external heater pump not a sumbmersable heater pump you silly billy  ;D

So could you rig it to sit on a van tank, again on timer, same principle, overnight? If its self priming, on a loop back into tank. Guessing then, same as the hottub? (Apart from the pump is elevated)
Lol, i dont want struggle of fitting element heater. This sounds easier, lol really want to make this work
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: HCS on November 17, 2016, 07:40:12 am
No he understood ok as I was clear in the email I sent him how it was intended to be used.
Also it's an external heater pump not a sumbmersable heater pump you silly billy  ;D

So could you rig it to sit on a van tank, again on timer, same principle, overnight? If its self priming, on a loop back into tank. Guessing then, same as the hottub? (Apart from the pump is elevated)
Lol, i dont want struggle of fitting element heater. This sounds easier, lol really want to make this work

I agree Nathan I was wondering if it heated enough overnight. If it was attached to the tap out of the van tank and re circulated into the top of the tank surely no airlock?
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Soupy on November 17, 2016, 09:21:48 am
The chap mentioned something about air locks and the heater would burn out. To be honest I wasn't really listen after he said it would not be suitable.

Why would airlocks be an issue?
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 17, 2016, 09:36:11 am
The chap mentioned something about air locks and the heater would burn out. To be honest I wasn't really listen after he said it would not be suitable.

Why would airlocks be an issue?

I guess having air locks could mean the heater element would not be in water so could burn out and/or the pump is not a run dry pump maybe? That's assuming there is an actual pump in it.
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Soupy on November 17, 2016, 09:40:53 am
The chap mentioned something about air locks and the heater would burn out. To be honest I wasn't really listen after he said it would not be suitable.

Why would airlocks be an issue?

I guess having air locks could mean the heater element would not be in water so could burn out and/or the pump is not a run dry pump maybe? That's assuming there is an actual pump in it.

Yeah, I get that but why would you get an airlock?
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 17, 2016, 09:55:12 am
No he understood ok as I was clear in the email I sent him how it was intended to be used.
Also it's an external heater pump not a sumbmersable heater pump you silly billy  ;D

So could you rig it to sit on a van tank, again on timer, same principle, overnight? If its self priming, on a loop back into tank. Guessing then, same as the hottub? (Apart from the pump is elevated)
Lol, i dont want struggle of fitting element heater. This sounds easier, lol really want to make this work

Well I guess you could buy one and see if it works then let use all know.

Like  I mentioned before I prefer to use hot water on demand and have no real reason to pre heat the tank water overnight myself.  Weather wise if it's cold /hard frosts overnight an electric air heater works for me to keep my gear freezing up in the back of the van. Also I currently have 2 tanks in the van plus a small softwash tank so would be bit difficult to go down the emersion heater route for now.
 
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 17, 2016, 10:06:00 am
The chap mentioned something about air locks and the heater would burn out. To be honest I wasn't really listen after he said it would not be suitable.

 
Why would airlocks be an issue?

I guess having air locks could mean the heater element would not be in water so could burn out and/or the pump is not a run dry pump maybe? That's assuming there is an actual pump in it.

Yeah, I get that but why would you get an airlock?

You could always contact the chap yourself.

Jon Pennington
sales@hottubdiy.co.uk
Tel: 01209 808 343
www.HotTubDIY.co.uk
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: nathankaye on November 17, 2016, 10:09:48 am
Apologies smurf, we all think your the sales rep.
Think i might look into this further, as an overnight water heater is ideal for my circumstances.
Cheers for heads up about it tho.
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 17, 2016, 10:15:14 am
Jon did metion something about an inline heater that you could get from a plumbers merchant. But I have no idea what he was on about either.  ;D
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: HCS on November 24, 2016, 05:10:28 pm
Hi guys,

I got my hot tub heater today to see if it could be used to warm water overnight. 

Firstly to notice it doesn't have a standard 3 pin plug so would require professional installation.

Secondly the inlet and outlet are very wide 2" in diameter so would need a good bit of plumbing to get it to work.

If anyone with a bit more knowledge has done it then I would be grateful of any tips or photos.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Dave Willis on November 24, 2016, 05:38:27 pm
Chuck it in the bin - send the bill to Smurf.
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: nathankaye on November 24, 2016, 06:11:38 pm
Hi guys,

I got my hot tub heater today to see if it could be used to warm water overnight. 

Firstly to notice it doesn't have a standard 3 pin plug so would require professional installation.

Secondly the inlet and outlet are very wide 2" in diameter so would need a good bit of plumbing to get it to work.

If anyone with a bit more knowledge has done it then I would be grateful of any tips or photos.

Cheers.

I was going to see about ordering one when had spare money. Is it self priming the pump, as in, could you stick 2" hose on either end and stick other ends in tank. My tank is 500ltr upright and so sas thinking keeping lid off and two different lengths of hose into tank.
What connection is for power?
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: HCS on November 24, 2016, 07:35:49 pm
Hi guys,

I got my hot tub heater today to see if it could be used to warm water overnight. 

Firstly to notice it doesn't have a standard 3 pin plug so would require professional installation.

Secondly the inlet and outlet are very wide 2" in diameter so would need a good bit of plumbing to get it to work.

If anyone with a bit more knowledge has done it then I would be grateful of any tips or photos.

Cheers.

I was going to see about ordering one when had spare money. Is it self priming the pump, as in, could you stick 2" hose on either end and stick other ends in tank. My tank is 500ltr upright and so sas thinking keeping lid off and two different lengths of hose into tank.
What connection is for power?

Hi Nathan,

I didn't realise that it was self priming, I will see about sorting some hose as that could work.

 There is no plug fitted but there are normal live neutral and earth cables so i will get my father in law to take a look as he is an electrician.

Thanks
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: HCS on November 24, 2016, 07:37:46 pm
Chuck it in the bin - send the bill to Smurf.

He he.

If I can't use it I will send it back.

Had to order one to take a look.
Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: HCS on November 24, 2016, 07:44:43 pm
Sorry it has 1.5" connections not 2" as I wrote before

Title: Re: Is anyone using this to heat water??
Post by: Smurf on November 24, 2016, 07:57:06 pm
Let us know how you get on with it. Try not to fry the heater element though as any air locks would burn it out apparently so I've been told.