Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Carl2009 on October 05, 2016, 03:00:33 pm
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OK, bear with me.
I started in 2009. I'm 53. I don't employ. I work with a 500l PF system in a 2006 Trafic with sub-100k on the clock (it's pretty reliable). I turn over £43K. My margin is 82%. I start at 08:45-ish and finish at 14:00 often earlier, sometimes later. I usually have +/- 80 litres left at the end of the day. I don't work in the rain or wind. I do work in winter. I don't take holidays as such (a couple of days here and there). I don't take breaks during the day (i.e. no 20 min bacon sarnie stops). Lunch is a 10 minute affair. I pride myself on the cleans I give and have a great reputation. I have never advertised and have never needed to canvas after the first 3 months of starting. I have no mortgage, we have good savings and my wife works full time. I have a very nice standard of living. All down to window cleaning.
I always had plans that come "retirement" to convert to a ltd company and rather than sell the business "gift" the business to someone to manage: they would have the lion's share of the profit, say 80% and I would have 20%. I'd retain 51% share of the business, they'd get 49%. They would have the motivation and reward to treat it as a proper business and I would get a nice "pension" for life. Of course you have to find someone, but it was years off and I had time. However...
Window cleaning has also given me shoulder, hand and arm problems. I wear a carpal tunnel brace when working cos of tendonitis in my right wrist (steady boys... lol), but I am starting to really suffer with aches and pains in my shoulders and back that will just not go away. It's got to the point where I have to consider slowing right down. If I carry on it might mean I have to give up eventually; at the very least i'd have to halve my workload and yet still might have the aches and pains...
So what do I do? Do I convert to ltd or stay sole trader? Limited liability partnership? Re. employing someone - what are the costs I have to consider in addition to salary and NI (pension, employees liab. ins)? Do I get a bigger van with a bigger tank so the day can be filled with work (i'm a demon canvasser and could get loads more if I wanted) with the aim of getting to say £60k (£315 per day x 4 days a week (bad weather writes off 1 day a week on average for me) x 48 weeks per year). I don't mind investing in new capital equipment such as a new van and I have the cash to do it; i'd perhaps keep the second van as a spare or one he could come to, ready-filled, if he was out of pure at 2pm. Should I just work out something for the new guy to get "given" a good stake in the business, say a share purchase idea?
I have a lad in mind - 25 yrs old, on Living Wage, sick of his warehouseman job, intelligent, never cleaned a pane in his life so no bad habits, good "sales" personality, hard worker, non-smoker, no visible tats, wants to buy own house yada yada.
The aim would be for me to run the business but not do any window cleaning to speak of (save if he's sick, on holiday etc.). I should say I don't want to franchise at all. I want to retain overall control and let someone else do the donkey work albeit for a better than average salary and with the ability to grow it big and earn big as it grows.
Any ideas from guys who have faced a similar dilemma or indeed anyone.
Cheers
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My advice would be to do more or less as you suggest, but get more work to get the turnover up to around £70k otherwise you can't pay a great wage for a full time employee. Get it up to £70k or so and you can pay around £23k and still have a reasonable income after expenses.
I'm 53 too and I am just about off the tools now although I've gone further than one employee. I totally sympathise re: shoulder aches and pains.
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Almost certainly if I were you I'd franchise. Employing people will double your working week (eventually) and if you intend to stop cleaning it will most likely be for a pay cut.
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Blimey, apart from the health problems that was like reading my own autobiography :o
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Almost certainly if I were you I'd franchise. Employing people will double your working week (eventually) and if you intend to stop cleaning it will most likely be for a pay cut.
If he followed the Ian Lancaster model he'd only see about £8k a year of his £43k. I didn't follow that model because the turnover needed to earn enough (for me) was astronomical.
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can you not get out and just do bottoms while your newbie is learning all you have offer him. It may not be to his liking after a few months, The wage you are offering him is a great incentitive to stay. All work there for him, while you go canvassing. Semi retirement
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Sell it and be free of any hassle
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can you not get out and just do bottoms while your newbie is learning all you have offer him. It may not be to his liking after a few months, The wage you are offering him is a great incentitive to stay. All work there for him, while you go canvassing. Semi retirement
Possibly. I would probably want to stay on the glass for the first year, to make sure I have the measure of him and to make sure he's in with both feet. When he sees the possibilities he should know window cleaning is a gold mine if approached in the right way.
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Sell it and be free of any hassle
James - i'm young, plenty of life left in me, if not in my joints. I have other stuff I do, but I like the money windows brings me. It's not a hassle to keep it. believe me i've been a salary slave and WC is a doddle compared to other roles i've had. I'd be mad to sell it.
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Thanks lads. I'm going to get this lad out with me - pay him £100 for the day to lift the reel in and out lol. See what his future plans are and if I think he can add something to the business.
Any clues as to costs re. employing 1 on say £22K?
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Thanks lads. I'm going to get this lad out with me - pay him £100 for the day to lift the reel in and out lol. See what his future plans are and if I think he can add something to the business.
Any clues as to costs re. employing 1 on say £22K?
Your turnover won't leave much profit and it's only really part time. You need more work. IMHO. It's just below what I pay, but I'm in the south east.
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First thing I'd do is put your prices up :o
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Sorry to hear about the aches & pains Carl. I hope it all goes to plan with this lad....
BTW - I recently gave your name to a couple of people who wanted me to clean in Llandewi Velfrey & Tegryn (both out of my area). Do you cover these areas?
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Sorry to hear about the aches & pains Carl. I hope it all goes to plan with this lad....
BTW - I recently gave your name to a couple of people who wanted me to clean in Llandewi Velfrey & Tegryn (both out of my area). Do you cover these areas?
Thanks and yes I do.
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First thing I'd do is put your prices up :o
Noted
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Thanks lads. I'm going to get this lad out with me - pay him £100 for the day to lift the reel in and out lol. See what his future plans are and if I think he can add something to the business.
Any clues as to costs re. employing 1 on say £22K?
Your turnover won't leave much profit and it's only really part time. You need more work. IMHO. It's just below what I pay, but I'm in the south east.
Quite right. At the moment it's how I like it, giving me the flexibility to manage my other, fun-based commitments. I'd increase the turnover as I said in my post.
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It sounds like you have a nice business there.
Personally I think you should franchise. Yes its less money straight away, but give it 2/3 years you could be earning what you're earning now without having to lift a pole. Or pay any business cost. Or have any employment headaches - they will come.
You said you're a demon canvasser - use that skill to build a franchise business. You only need 5 franchisees to get 100% earnings (based on taking 20% royalties). Plus the initial franchise fee.
Give bits of your current work to franchisees bit by bit to get them started and canvass the rest for them.
Franchising has so many long term benefits.
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If my joints were knackered, I'd sell the lot and start buying and selling property, especially if I'd money in the bank as well . Or buy a few properties and rent them out- easy life
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Or.... If you love canvassing..... I know there's plenty of work out there from windys who are looking for a decent canvasser , you could make money from that ...
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this is the simple short version
bigger tank
bigger van if required
employ 2 lads on say £8 an hour plus a decent bonus linked to no complaints, attendance and turnover
you drive
they clean
whilst they clean you canvass, do slips, collect etc
get van up to £7500 turnover a month or £375 per day on 20 days a month
^^^^^ depends what part of uk u from so maybe higher or lower
ban mobile phones unless break time
don't come on here telling others your doing £7500 a month as you will be attacked by the @ankers on here
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or 4 part timers in case 2 full timers are muppets and you need to cull staff members
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this is the simple short version
bigger tank
bigger van if required
employ 2 lads on say £8 an hour plus a decent bonus linked to no complaints, attendance and turnover
you drive
they clean
whilst they clean you canvass, do slips, collect etc
get van up to £7500 turnover a month or £375 per day on 20 days a month
^^^^^ depends what part of uk u from so maybe higher or lower
ban mobile phones unless break time
don't come on here telling others your doing £7500 a month as you will be attacked by the @ankers on here
Should be double that if two workers and a driver!
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Thanks lads. I'm going to get this lad out with me - pay him £100 for the day to lift the reel in and out lol. See what his future plans are and if I think he can add something to the business.
Any clues as to costs re. employing 1 on say £22K?
If you're suffering from aches and pains fixing the reel inside the van would help a great deal.
Andy :)
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this is the simple short version
bigger tank
bigger van if required
employ 2 lads on say £8 an hour plus a decent bonus linked to no complaints, attendance and turnover
you drive
they clean
whilst they clean you canvass, do slips, collect etc
get van up to £7500 turnover a month or £375 per day on 20 days a month
^^^^^ depends what part of uk u from so maybe higher or lower
ban mobile phones unless break time
don't come on here telling others your doing £7500 a month as you will be attacked by the @ankers on here
Should be double that if two workers and a driver!
I was going by my own low standards and crap priced work :)
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At least you have options Carl. This could work nicely.
What is your wife's opinion?
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I'd address the short term issue first, tomorrow I would:
Book some sports massage (a proper qualified person) ideally someone recommended, tell them your issues and see if they can work out a plan. Start doing some pilates or Yoga, think about buying a hot tub (a friend of mine used it to relieve a lot of his aches and pains).
Use a Gardiners Extreme pole 25' and Xtreme brushes, mount the reel in the van (use plumbers pipe holders and cable ties). Cut 60m off your main hose and replace this with Gardiners Reinforced pole hose. You'll feel like you're working with no weight at all and this can all be achieved next week.
As for longer term, I knew of a guy who only used to drive and collect the money, working two lads in the van (trad), so three of them in total. I don't know the facts or figures but he had a nice house!
I suffered with tennis elbow (52 years old) and back problems. All the equipment fixes worked very well for me, nowhere near as bad pain etc.
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I'd address the short term issue first, tomorrow I would:
Book some sports massage (a proper qualified person) ideally someone recommended, tell them your issues and see if they can work out a plan. Start doing some pilates or Yoga, think about buying a hot tub (a friend of mine used it to relieve a lot of his aches and pains).
Use a Gardiners Extreme pole 25' and Xtreme brushes, mount the reel in the van (use plumbers pipe holders and cable ties). Cut 60m off your main hose and replace this with Gardiners Reinforced pole hose. You'll feel like you're working with no weight at all and this can all be achieved next week.
As for longer term, I knew of a guy who only used to drive and collect the money, working two lads in the van (trad), so three of them in total. I don't know the facts or figures but he had a nice house!
I suffered with tennis elbow (52 years old) and back problems. All the equipment fixes worked very well for me, nowhere near as bad pain etc.
Agree with all this but would add a electric reel and tubeless pole hose conversion.. I have used a 100 mtrs of the blue hose, doing away completely reel hose now for 12 months with no issues. It's just so light.
Tony
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At least you have options Carl. This could work nicely.
What is your wife's opinion?
She thinks it has legs (the "gifting" the business and retaining control); she also thinks it might be an option to cut down to half the workload and carry on myself, allowing more time for my body to heal. In the back of my mind i'm concerned about rheumatism in older years: i'm a sweaty bloke and constantly wet through right through my undies. I get cold unless I wear loads of layers. It's not a good scenario long term.
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Thanks lads. I'm going to get this lad out with me - pay him £100 for the day to lift the reel in and out lol. See what his future plans are and if I think he can add something to the business.
Any clues as to costs re. employing 1 on say £22K?
If you're suffering from aches and pains fixing the reel inside the van would help a great deal.
Andy :)
Ironically the reel isn't a problem. It's the pole and strain on shoulders and back even though it's an SLX with a Supalight. Repetitive injuries.
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I'd address the short term issue first, tomorrow I would:
Book some sports massage (a proper qualified person) ideally someone recommended, tell them your issues and see if they can work out a plan. Start doing some pilates or Yoga, think about buying a hot tub (a friend of mine used it to relieve a lot of his aches and pains).
Use a Gardiners Extreme pole 25' and Xtreme brushes, mount the reel in the van (use plumbers pipe holders and cable ties). Cut 60m off your main hose and replace this with Gardiners Reinforced pole hose. You'll feel like you're working with no weight at all and this can all be achieved next week.
As for longer term, I knew of a guy who only used to drive and collect the money, working two lads in the van (trad), so three of them in total. I don't know the facts or figures but he had a nice house!
I suffered with tennis elbow (52 years old) and back problems. All the equipment fixes worked very well for me, nowhere near as bad pain etc.
Agree with all this but would add a electric reel and tubeless pole hose conversion.. I have used a 100 mtrs of the blue hose, doing away completely reel hose now for 12 months with no issues. It's just so light.
Tony
Can you post pics from online to show what you mean. or better still your setup if you can be bothered :-)
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I'd address the short term issue first, tomorrow I would:
Book some sports massage (a proper qualified person) ideally someone recommended, tell them your issues and see if they can work out a plan. Start doing some pilates or Yoga, think about buying a hot tub (a friend of mine used it to relieve a lot of his aches and pains).
Use a Gardiners Extreme pole 25' and Xtreme brushes, mount the reel in the van (use plumbers pipe holders and cable ties). Cut 60m off your main hose and replace this with Gardiners Reinforced pole hose. You'll feel like you're working with no weight at all and this can all be achieved next week.
As for longer term, I knew of a guy who only used to drive and collect the money, working two lads in the van (trad), so three of them in total. I don't know the facts or figures but he had a nice house!
I suffered with tennis elbow (52 years old) and back problems. All the equipment fixes worked very well for me, nowhere near as bad pain etc.
Appreciate your advice Robbo. Will look into all that.
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1475695224_IMG_0752.JPG)(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1475695223_IMG_0754.JPG)
A couple of the reel , the tubeless kit is available from exceed innovations. Stephen has some vids on YouTube
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I'd address the short term issue first, tomorrow I would:
Book some sports massage (a proper qualified person) ideally someone recommended, tell them your issues and see if they can work out a plan. Start doing some pilates or Yoga, think about buying a hot tub (a friend of mine used it to relieve a lot of his aches and pains).
Use a Gardiners Extreme pole 25' and Xtreme brushes, mount the reel in the van (use plumbers pipe holders and cable ties). Cut 60m off your main hose and replace this with Gardiners Reinforced pole hose. You'll feel like you're working with no weight at all and this can all be achieved next week.
As for longer term, I knew of a guy who only used to drive and collect the money, working two lads in the van (trad), so three of them in total. I don't know the facts or figures but he had a nice house!
I suffered with tennis elbow (52 years old) and back problems. All the equipment fixes worked very well for me, nowhere near as bad pain etc.
Agree with all this but would add a electric reel and tubeless pole hose conversion.. I have used a 100 mtrs of the blue hose, doing away completely reel hose now for 12 months with no issues. It's just so light.
Tony
Where do you get the blue hose? And how much is it?
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I'd address the short term issue first, tomorrow I would:
Book some sports massage (a proper qualified person) ideally someone recommended, tell them your issues and see if they can work out a plan. Start doing some pilates or Yoga, think about buying a hot tub (a friend of mine used it to relieve a lot of his aches and pains).
Use a Gardiners Extreme pole 25' and Xtreme brushes, mount the reel in the van (use plumbers pipe holders and cable ties). Cut 60m off your main hose and replace this with Gardiners Reinforced pole hose. You'll feel like you're working with no weight at all and this can all be achieved next week.
As for longer term, I knew of a guy who only used to drive and collect the money, working two lads in the van (trad), so three of them in total. I don't know the facts or figures but he had a nice house!
I suffered with tennis elbow (52 years old) and back problems. All the equipment fixes worked very well for me, nowhere near as bad pain etc.
Agree with all this but would add a electric reel and tubeless pole hose conversion.. I have used a 100 mtrs of the blue hose, doing away completely reel hose now for 12 months with no issues. It's just so light.
Tony
Where do you get the blue hose? And how much is it?
Exceed pole hose about £90 for 100 mtr I think.
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You say you don't want to franchise, but you're talking about paying out 80% of the total income to employ someone and lose 49% of your business.
Employment brings more work and headaches for you, whereas franchising means far less day to day running of things and you'd still get your 20% cut and retain 100% ownership of your business.
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You say you don't want to franchise, but you're talking about paying out 80% of the total income to employ someone and lose 49% of your business.
Employment brings more work and headaches for you, whereas franchising means far less day to day running of things and you'd still get your 20% cut and retain 100% ownership of your business.
It's a control thing which I sort of understand. Remember though, even if someone is your employee as soon as they drive off your premises they're no longer in your control, not really, yet they are entirely your responsibility. Franchising removes that issue and if you've got the right contract still gives you control over your customers.
The op describes himself as a "demon canvasser" which to me sounds ideal for franchising.
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(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1475695224_IMG_0752.JPG)(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1475695223_IMG_0754.JPG)
A couple of the reel , the tubeless kit is available from exceed innovations. Stephen has some vids on YouTube
Thanks for taking time to post this.
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You say you don't want to franchise, but you're talking about paying out 80% of the total income to employ someone and lose 49% of your business.
Employment brings more work and headaches for you, whereas franchising means far less day to day running of things and you'd still get your 20% cut and retain 100% ownership of your business.
Fair comment. Hmmmh...
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You say you don't want to franchise, but you're talking about paying out 80% of the total income to employ someone and lose 49% of your business.
Employment brings more work and headaches for you, whereas franchising means far less day to day running of things and you'd still get your 20% cut and retain 100% ownership of your business.
It's a control thing which I sort of understand. Remember though, even if someone is your employee as soon as they drive off your premises they're no longer in your control, not really, yet they are entirely your responsibility. Franchising removes that issue and if you've got the right contract still gives you control over your customers.
The op describes himself as a "demon canvasser" which to me sounds ideal for franchising.
Another fair comment. Double Hmmmm
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The way I see it Sunshine is still only young and only needs say another 5 franchises bringing a total to 10 and then will never need to work again.
Makes you think don't it ;D
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I'm retiring next year Smurf ;D
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What about handing control of the business over totally? I.e employ someone as a manager. Pay hIm 30k a year to run every aspect of the business (assuming a 60k turnover). Just because you don't work in rain doesn't mean your employee can't ,maybe he won't mind doing a Saturday morning either for the odd add on job? .
Then Why not take your spare time any money and invest it in something and else entirely? Windows is a great business but it's not the only one there's businesses you can run sat on your arse with a laptop..what about property, antiques, ebay, web design etc etc
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What about handing control of the business over totally? I.e employ someone as a manager. Pay hIm 30k a year to run every aspect of the business (assuming a 60k turnover). Just because you don't work in rain doesn't mean your employee can't ,maybe he won't mind doing a Saturday morning either for the odd add on job? .
Then Why not take your spare time any money and invest it in something and else entirely? Windows is a great business but it's not the only one there's businesses you can run sat on your arse with a laptop..what about property, antiques, ebay, web design etc etc
Nah, don't want to take on another business. I have one feldgling one already.
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OK, so, franchising.
Say I gave him use of my van in return for 50% share of the first year's turnover (bear with me) after which it was his van (negating the need for him to come up with an initial capital investment); after that he would pay me 20% of turnover in return for the standard franchise commitments from me of branding, uniform, more work, maintained equipment, marketing, advice etc. Where would I get the business from for Franchisee 2 given Franchisee 1 has all my current business: I'd need business before I can get Franchisee 2, but need to be able to clean to get the business and Francisee 1 has the van.
What am i missing?
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this is the simple short version
bigger tank
bigger van if required
employ 2 lads on say £8 an hour plus a decent bonus linked to no complaints, attendance and turnover
you drive
they clean
whilst they clean you canvass, do slips, collect etc
get van up to £7500 turnover a month or £375 per day on 20 days a month
^^^^^ depends what part of uk u from so maybe higher or lower
ban mobile phones unless break time
don't come on here telling others your doing £7500 a month as you will be attacked by the @ankers on here
IMO above is the best option at least for the first couple of years while they are learning the work,try and get everyone online so they are not handling the money side of thing.You will have full control allowing you to do a bit of work on the days you feel able to.
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I'm retiring next year Smurf ;D
I'm betting you will by the way it's gowing and with the amout of leads im passing your way me being on the sick and all ;D
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Sorry to hear you're not in a good way smurf.
Tell you what, you price them as normal. I'll take a 50/50 split. With your prices I'll still be quids in 😂
Carl, why not start 2 franchisees at the same time with the work you have. The income from the initial investment of 2 will tide you over long enough to build them both up to a decent level.
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That's very kind of you Lance as I may take you up on that kind offer in the near future when I reach the point I have to come off the tools completly. It seems to be one thing after another health wise lately but still I want to get out and do a bit if/when I can as keeps me active all the same. ;)
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Sorry to hear you're not in a good way smurf.
Tell you what, you price them as normal. I'll take a 50/50 split. With your prices I'll still be quids in 😂
Carl, why not start 2 franchisees at the same time with the work you have. The income from the initial investment of 2 will tide you over long enough to build them both up to a decent level.
Well, one has no savings to invest and doubt he could raise any, hence my idea to take a 50% cut of what he turns over till he's paid me back the investment; the other is still in the army; would have money to invest but not sure when he's out or even if he would be interested. I do know he is out soonish and do know he might well be up for and capable of the job.
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Sorry to hear you're not in a good way smurf.
Tell you what, you price them as normal. I'll take a 50/50 split. With your prices I'll still be quids in 😂
Carl, why not start 2 franchisees at the same time with the work you have. The income from the initial investment of 2 will tide you over long enough to build them both up to a decent level.
Well, one has no savings to invest and doubt he could raise any, hence my idea to take a 50% cut of what he turns over till he's paid me back the investment; the other is still in the army; would have money to invest but not sure when he's out or even if he would be interested. I do know he is out soonish and do know he might well be up for and capable of the job.
One of mine didn't have a pot to pee in before he took the plunge. He took a bank loan and has never been so happy.