Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: AuRavelling79 on April 24, 2016, 04:02:30 pm
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Just finished installing my new R/O. It is a Pentair PRF-RO and is so easy-peasy that that even I can do it.
It's about 345TDS in and 004 out and the inlet pressure gauge now reads 65-70 psi on 1/2" tubing in and 3/8" tubing out. I get about 70 litres an hour of pure which is more than adequate.
The old RO-Man type (nominal 300gpd) started at about 009 out on 80 psi on 1/4" tubing and gave about 20 litres an hour of pure.
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Just finished installing my new R/O. It is a Pentair PRF-RO and is so easy-peasy that that even I can do it.
It's about 345TDS in and 004 out and the inlet pressure gauge now reads 65-70 psi on 1/2" tubing in and 3/8" tubing out. I get about 70 litres an hour of pure which is more than adequate.
The old RO-Man type (nominal 300gpd) started at about 009 out on 80 psi on 1/4" tubing and gave about 20 litres an hour of pure.
By those results Gold, they have certainly done wonders when compared to the old Merlin.
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Was thinking to upgrade mine this year. That looks impressive. Mines a boosted 300gpd system at the moment. Water and electricity is costing me a small fortune at the moment. My mains pressure is only about 40psi but if I could match my current output without having to boost it that would be good.
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How much was that mr gold?
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What pump are you using Malc?
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How much was that mr gold?
£322 + VAT from Gardiners. (There is a video of it with Alex setting it up with the help of his cat!)
Plus John Guest connectors and tubing and I also got a 7 litre resin chamber, but most of you will have one of those already. (I polish my water before storing, not on the van)
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What pump are you using Malc?
I'm not - mains pressure only. On my old system the inlet gauge showed 75/80psi through quarter inch tubing. This gauge shows 65 - 70 psi through three-eighths tubing.
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@Spruce
Yes, I was pleasantly surprised but I'm well aware how TDS can rise and how membranes deteriorate. It will be helpful if I post the outlet TDS and flowrate in a couple of weeks and again in a couple of months.
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What pump are you using Malc?
I'm not - mains pressure only. On my old system the inlet gauge showed 75/80psi through quarter inch tubing. This gauge shows 65 - 70 psi through three-eighths tubing.
Lovely, ta.
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Just finished installing my new R/O. It is a Pentair PRF-RO and is so easy-peasy that that even I can do it.
It's about 345TDS in and 004 out and the inlet pressure gauge now reads 65-70 psi on 1/2" tubing in and 3/8" tubing out. I get about 70 litres an hour of pure which is more than adequate.
The old RO-Man type (nominal 300gpd) started at about 009 out on 80 psi on 1/4" tubing and gave about 20 litres an hour of pure.
By those results Gold, they have certainly done wonders when compared to the old Merlin.
Yes, that's amazing. With a Clarkes pump and 280 in I only get 14 out with new membranes. That's astonishing for a Merlin.
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That is impressive performance although my 300 gpd Ro man unit performs well. Currently around 200 plus in and 002 out. The membranes are around 14 months old. I do flush it for a few minutes daily, use a 20 inch pre filter and a water softener.
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Just finished installing my new R/O. It is a Pentair PRF-RO and is so easy-peasy that that even I can do it.
It's about 345TDS in and 004 out and the inlet pressure gauge now reads 65-70 psi on 1/2" tubing in and 3/8" tubing out. I get about 70 litres an hour of pure which is more than adequate.
The old RO-Man type (nominal 300gpd) started at about 009 out on 80 psi on 1/4" tubing and gave about 20 litres an hour of pure.
An update as of Friday 13th May.
300 in and 008 out of the R/O and 60 litres per hour. So as suspected, not as good as it was between three and four weeks ago. I will be changing the filter 1st week in June so we shall see what difference that makes.
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Out of interest, what made you pick the merlin over the 4040 Gold?
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Out of interest, what made you pick the merlin over the 4040 Gold?
I think it was simplicity and price. I'm only feeding two of us and not on a water meter ... yet.
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Fair enough
In fairness the TDS of pure your getting is pretty good for what I remember Merlins to be like (although I think they've improved)
Better than the 300gpd , bet you wish you'd done it before!
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Just to say on this, I bought new membranes for my Merlin a little over a year ago and my TDS has now risen to 42 from 14 and resin is going off quickly. We use around 1,000 litres a day. It's time to put my hand in my pockets for a 4040 I think.
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Hi Granville,
Out of interest, have you any further updates on your PFR performances please.
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Out of interest, what made you pick the merlin over the 4040 Gold?
I think it was simplicity and price. I'm only feeding two of us and not on a water meter ... yet.
. Hi Granville. I don't think water companies can make you have a water meter installed, if you don't already have one
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Just to say on this, I bought new membranes for my Merlin a little over a year ago and my TDS has now risen to 42 from 14 and resin is going off quickly. We use around 1,000 litres a day. It's time to put my hand in my pockets for a 4040 I think.
You've been saying that for ages ;D
I would of thought a decent setup would be more important then forking out on a new ford ranger...
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:P
Just to say on this, I bought new membranes for my Merlin a little over a year ago and my TDS has now risen to 42 from 14 and resin is going off quickly. We use around 1,000 litres a day. It's time to put my hand in my pockets for a 4040 I think.
You've been saying that for ages ;D
I would of thought a decent setup would be more important then forking out on a new ford ranger...
That post is a few months old now. When we moved into our unit I upgraded to a 4040 at the same time. So there!
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:PJust to say on this, I bought new membranes for my Merlin a little over a year ago and my TDS has now risen to 42 from 14 and resin is going off quickly. We use around 1,000 litres a day. It's time to put my hand in my pockets for a 4040 I think.
You've been saying that for ages ;D
I would of thought a decent setup would be more important then forking out on a new ford ranger...
That post is a few months old now. When we moved into our unit I upgraded to a 4040 at the same time. So there!
POW right in the kisser!
Fair one you got me😉
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Hi Granville,
Out of interest, have you any further updates on your PFR performances please.
Yes. So the system is now coming up 5 months old and as you would expect I have not had to change the membranes. They now produce at 14/16 TDS. A few observations.
After about 4 weeks the out put TDS had crept up to about 008 and then over the next week suddenly shot up to about 25 with reduced flow. I had a brief email exchange with Gardiners who suggested I put a sediment filter before the included RO carbon block prefilter and so I put a 10" (you know the real cheap white thing that is less than a fiver a pop) in line between the tap and the R/O.
This now means that as soon as the TDS rises a bit I change the sediment filter and now get about 8 weeks from the carbon block filter instead of 4 or 5. The TDS settled down to 14/16 again.
If I am changing membranes every 12 months I shall be happy; if less than 9 I shall be rather disappointed. But I don't want to be eating resin at more than about 20/25TDS and would definitely change the membranes by 28/30.
If someone reminds me I'll give a report at the end of October which will be 6 months.
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Interesting. Thanks Malc. I'm gonna be looking at putting a pentair in the van shortly.
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Interesting. Thanks Malc. I'm gonna be looking at putting a pentair in the van shortly.
At Malc figures I would put a 4021 in.
16ppm from 300 is 94.7% efficient. I don't thing that's very good tbh.
I haven't done the maths but what he saved in buying the unit will be more than spent on resin to polish those remaining ppm off.
- that's the conclusion my mate around the corner with his Merlin came to.
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Interesting. Thanks Malc. I'm gonna be looking at putting a pentair in the van shortly.
At Malc figures I would put a 4021 in.
16ppm from 300 is 94.7% efficient. I don't thing that's very good tbh.
I haven't done the maths but what he saved in buying the unit will be more than spent on resin to polish those remaining ppm off.
- that's the conclusion my mate around the corner with his Merlin came to.
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That is a fair point. If you have a lot of water to "make" that will become increasingly important as the membranes degrade. So figure in the cost of the membranes per 1,000's of litres produced. If mine started off at 004 and are now on 016 who knows where they might be at the end of a year?
The carbon block filter isn't cheap at £18.50 plus vat either.
The membranes and you will need two at a time are £67.00 each plus vat.
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Gold - try a booster pump. You may not need it water pressure-wise but it should bring your TDS down (a mate of mine got similar figures to you with his merlin, but after using a booster he got pure at around 5/6 constantly)
Blackadder - if you're putting R.O into your van then i'm assuming you want pure at a decent rate? I'd go 40/40 rather than 40/21
The price difference is negligible abd once you get into buying membranes i think they're cheaper...
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i still use a 300ro, with a purefreedom booster pump, 200 litres in 3 hours. still a chore to set up for next days water. always have to be aware of your pure supply. if you forget its up @ 6 to get 200 litres to get started, then back on again
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Can a booster pump speed up the water making process?
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yes
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i still use a 300ro, with a purefreedom booster pump, 200 litres in 3 hours. still a chore to set up for next days water. always have to be aware of your pure supply. if you forget its up @ 6 to get 200 litres to get started, then back on again
Add another 150 membrane to make your R.O 450gpd
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Interesting. Thanks Malc. I'm gonna be looking at putting a pentair in the van shortly.
At Malc figures I would put a 4021 in.
16ppm from 300 is 94.7% efficient. I don't thing that's very good tbh.
I haven't done the maths but what he saved in buying the unit will be more than spent on resin to polish those remaining ppm off.
- that's the conclusion my mate around the corner with his Merlin came to.
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That is a fair point. If you have a lot of water to "make" that will become increasingly important as the membranes degrade. So figure in the cost of the membranes per 1,000's of litres produced. If mine started of at 004 and are now on 016 who knows where they might be at the end of a year?
The carbon block filter isn't cheap at £18.50 plus vat either.
The membranes and you will need two at a time are £67.00 each plus vat.
You saved money on the r/o, but it will cost you in resin. So break even will be in about 2 years - price of 4040 compared to PRF. When membranes are due it will save you money as 2 PRF membranes are much cheaper than 1 x 4040 is.
My fiberdyne prefilter is £28 + VAT but its good for twice the water usage yours is. I might consider adding another 10" prefilter housing and fitting a fiberdyne prefilter into that. A 10" is £12.00 and good for the same amount of water (-200 liters). That would depend if I could remove the Merlin fiberdyne altogether and leave the housing empty.
I couldn't help remembering how you said that it was so easy to install, so this is a big plus factor.
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Gold - try a booster pump. You may not need it water pressure-wise but it should bring your TDS down (a mate of mine got similar figures to you with his merlin, but after using a booster he got pure at around 5/6 constantly)
Blackadder - if you're putting R.O into your van then i'm assuming you want pure at a decent rate? I'd go 40/40 rather than 40/21
The price difference is negligible abd once you get into buying membranes i think they're cheaper...
What pressure would a booster pump take it to? And when does it start being too much pressure?
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Gold - try a booster pump. You may not need it water pressure-wise but it should bring your TDS down (a mate of mine got similar figures to you with his merlin, but after using a booster he got pure at around 5/6 constantly)
Blackadder - if you're putting R.O into your van then i'm assuming you want pure at a decent rate? I'd go 40/40 rather than 40/21
The price difference is negligible abd once you get into buying membranes i think they're cheaper...
What pressure would a booster pump take it to? And when does it start being too much pressure?
Depends on the booster pump you buy...
I know the one that gardiners sells can take you up to around 85psi, but I know the clarkeCmbe booster that alot buy can take you over 100
As a rule of thumb I think most tend to have theirs set at around 80-90psi which is a safe decent figure but if I'm honest I dont know what 'too much' is but I'd imagine it to be a figure of over 100 (spruce may be able to answer that for you, he's alot more knowledgable on R.O's than I am)
Smudger posted a link to a 'cheaper' one a while back that I cant seem to find the link for. I'm sure he said he'd used it for a while now and it worked fine (hopefully he'll post a link if he sees this!)
I used a booster pump (aquatec 8800) on my 450gpd when I had one, taking my pressure from 30-35 psi to 80psi and the difference in TDS and production rate was noticeably better
Again though, I think it comes down to how much water you need and when you'll reap the financial benefits from the initial outlay
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Gold - try a booster pump. You may not need it water pressure-wise but it should bring your TDS down (a mate of mine got similar figures to you with his merlin, but after using a booster he got pure at around 5/6 constantly)
Blackadder - if you're putting R.O into your van then i'm assuming you want pure at a decent rate? I'd go 40/40 rather than 40/21
The price difference is negligible abd once you get into buying membranes i think they're cheaper...
What pressure would a booster pump take it to? And when does it start being too much pressure?
I doubt you will see much noticeable difference as your water pressure is pretty high anyway.
Its the nature of the design of the r/o. GE designed it for undercounter use in American kitchens as a third tap in the sink. If it removed 90% of 'impurities' in the water the average American would use to make coffee, cooking, drinking water, etc then it's done its job perfectly.
As window cleaners we demand the highest water quality for the job we do which is totally different to what its designed for. We also use vast quantities of purified water in comparison to the meager quantities the unit was initially designed to produce. (It also needed to be a compact unit that produced a reasonable flow of water from the faucet when opened, all requirements we find appealing.)
IMHO its just not designed for the job we are asking it to do.
I seemed to remember there was an article promising that the new PRF replacement would have upgraded membranes for better performance, but this doesn't seem to have happened.
Among window cleaners there will always be a market for an r/o of this type as price plays a big part in many of the decisions made. There are other major suppliers who also sell the PRF as a window cleaning r/o unit.
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Just to resurrect this thread.
I bought a Pentair from Gardiners, here are the results so far.
Pentair unit set up on fifth of October producing water at 6 ppm before the resin
23rd October producing 14ppm
23rd November 14ppm.
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Just to resurrect this thread.
I bought a Pentair from Gardiners, here are the results so far.
Pentair unit set up on fifth of October producing water at 6 ppm before the resin
23rd October producing 14ppm
23rd November 14ppm.
Please tell us your tap water tds and have you any idea of your tap water pressure. Cheers.
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Tap water is 300. 55 psi.
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Tap water is 300. 55 psi.
Thanks. Similar rejection rate to Granville's unit but with lower water pressure. That's interesting.
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I know a guy that bought a vyair 4040 ,300 plus tds from tap goes through around 1500 litres a day 5 days a week 600 litres Saturday s changed all his filters and membrane 1 St of August and still coming out of same resin at 001
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Sediment is the one you want to change regularly if that gets blocked it will fill slower and kill the next one inline,good quality regularly changed pre filters are what gives you a good after RO reading in my experience.
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PRF RO update.
Okay so here we are 8 months in and on original membranes.
Today TDS 235 (lower than normal) in. 12 out. 1 litre per minute of pure produced. Input pressure 75psi.
The added 10" sediment filter seems to be prolonging the life of the carbon block filter.
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That's really good, I bought this over a year a go and its performance as been bad to say the least.
I have tds in of about 280 and it has never been lower than 15 after ro and reaching 30 in several weeks.
Ive changed membranes 3 times in the last 10 months!
The last membranes were put in on 23/11 and tds is now 24, I have 2 smaller filters trying to protect the larger carbon filter which I have to change every 3 weeks!
We use about 2000 litres of pure a week.
The whole thing is a nightmare but im stuck with it unless I spend a load of wedge on some other system.
Any suggestions, anyone.
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That's really good, I bought this over a year a go and its performance as been bad to say the least.
I have tds in of about 280 and it has never been lower than 15 after ro and reaching 30 in several weeks.
Ive changed membranes 3 times in the last 10 months!
The last membranes were put in on 23/11 and tds is now 24, I have 2 smaller filters trying to protect the larger carbon filter which I have to change every 3 weeks!
We use about 2000 litres of pure a week.
The whole thing is a nightmare but im stuck with it unless I spend a load of wedge on some other system.
Any suggestions, anyone.
At the moment its working at removing 91% of the impurities in the water. A fellow windie is on his second Merlin and they never achieved better than 90% from brand new.
He helped it a bit by fitting a 3/8" ball valve onto his waste line to restrict the amount of waste going to the drain. So instead of 5 liters waste to 1 liter pure its now about 1 liter waste to 1 liter of pure. (That 3/8" ball valve must never be fully closed.)
What's your tap water pressure?
What is your pure to waste ratio? In other words, how much water in liters goes down the drain to make 1 liter of pure?
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According to his post tap pressure is 75psi. To only get tds of 012 IMO is poor.
My 300gpd ro-man unit is much more efficient and only runs on 55psi. I usually get 004 with a 200tds input.
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According to his post tap pressure is 75psi. To only get tds of 012 IMO is poor.
My 300gpd ro-man unit is much more efficient and only runs on 55psi. I usually get 004 with a 200tds input.
I agree. My personal opinion is that these Merlin and its predecessor r/o's aren't up to window cleaners requirements. They were designed for kitchen under counter r/o's in American kitchens (third tap) and do a great job for the purpose they were designed.
For window cleaning we need to strip out every last ion of dissolved solids or as close to that as possible from our tap water.
The first r/o we had was a RoMan type 450GPD and with a tap water tds of 250ppm - pure output was 4ppm - 40 psi water pressure.
Upgraded to 4040 with HF5 membrane and tap water tds 99 - 125 ppm - pure output is 2ppm - 50 psi water pressure. (Tds came down with relined pipes and pressure went up at the same time.)
That fellow windie with the Merlin was initially 15ppm pure but is down at 10ppm now.
I would recommend billy08 throws in the towel with his current r/o and replaces it with a 4040.
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3 litres of waste to 1 pure with 55psi water pressure.
Thanks for the suggestion of changing to 4040 but why would this be better.
I used to have 200gpd which cost next to nothing to run but couldn't produce quick enough, this is the pay of I suppose.
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3 litres of waste to 1 pure with 55psi water pressure.
Thanks for the suggestion of changing to 4040 but why would this be better.
I used to have 200gpd which cost next to nothing to run but couldn't produce quick enough, this is the pay of I suppose.
No its not the payoff. A 4040 will produce the same quality of water your 200GPD did and faster (probably twice as fast) than the one you have now.
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According to his post tap pressure is 75psi. To only get tds of 012 IMO is poor.
My 300gpd ro-man unit is much more efficient and only runs on 55psi. I usually get 004 with a 200tds input.
I agree. My personal opinion is that these Merlin and its predecessor r/o's aren't up to window cleaners requirements. They were designed for kitchen under counter r/o's in American kitchens (third tap) and do a great job for the purpose they were designed.
For window cleaning we need to strip out every last ion of dissolved solids or as close to that as possible from our tap water.
The first r/o we had was a RoMan type 450GPD and with a tap water tds of 250ppm - pure output was 4ppm - 40 psi water pressure.
Upgraded to 4040 with HF5 membrane and tap water tds 99 - 125 ppm - pure output is 2ppm - 50 psi water pressure. (Tds came down with relined pipes and pressure went up at the same time.)
That fellow windie with the Merlin was initially 15ppm pure but is down at 10ppm now.
I would recommend billy08 throws in the towel with his current r/o and replaces it with a 4040.
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I agree, am surprised that Alex and Grippa sell these as their preferred system.
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According to his post tap pressure is 75psi. To only get tds of 012 IMO is poor.
My 300gpd ro-man unit is much more efficient and only runs on 55psi. I usually get 004 with a 200tds input.
I agree. My personal opinion is that these Merlin and its predecessor r/o's aren't up to window cleaners requirements. They were designed for kitchen under counter r/o's in American kitchens (third tap) and do a great job for the purpose they were designed.
For window cleaning we need to strip out every last ion of dissolved solids or as close to that as possible from our tap water.
The first r/o we had was a RoMan type 450GPD and with a tap water tds of 250ppm - pure output was 4ppm - 40 psi water pressure.
Upgraded to 4040 with HF5 membrane and tap water tds 99 - 125 ppm - pure output is 2ppm - 50 psi water pressure. (Tds came down with relined pipes and pressure went up at the same time.)
That fellow windie with the Merlin was initially 15ppm pure but is down at 10ppm now.
I would recommend billy08 throws in the towel with his current r/o and replaces it with a 4040.
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I agree, am surprised that Alex and Grippa sell these as their preferred system.
Alex has everything is stock to build a 4040 in parts including membrane, 4040 housing and 20" prefilter housings.
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I've not been hugely impressed with my 4040. I gather from Gaps I screwed up the membrane by having the waste ratio wrong. Within two weeks the tds went from 6 to 14. Input is around 300.
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Spruce
Yes, but it is the only complete RO system Alex sells and the systems from Grippa (designed by Alex) use the Merlin style RO.
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Spruce
Yes, but it is the only complete RO system Alex sells and the systems from Grippa (designed by Alex) use the Merlin style RO.
The Merlin and its predecessor are low cost plug and play r/o systems that need the basics to get into water production at a reasonable initial price. Because they only need a ball valve to switch the complete r/o off when the storage tank is full, buying additional equipment isn't going to add much to the initial cost outlay.
Most window cleaners start off on a budget and tend to make their decision on price rather than account for the long term cost savings.
These r/o's aren't as efficient as window cleaners need them to be IMHO, so a windie using these r/o's will use more resin polishing off the remaining tds to make the water pure. But he will be buying the extra resin needed from the money he is earning.
Years ago the price of a 4040 was much more expensive than a Merlin, so it might have taken a long time before the initial costs and running costs balanced out.
I don't know why Alex past over the EZ r/o systems to Grippatank TBH. I can only imagine it was a business decision. The EZ r/o system is what is included in the complete tank system they sell, although they also sell the PRF as a stand alone r/o filtration unit.
The PRF membranes aren't the same as the 4040 or 4021 membranes and aren't interchangeable as far as I know. If they were then Alex wouldn't stock the membranes separately.
Merlin membrane
http://gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/all-products/pure-water-systems/water-treatment/reverse-osmosis-membranes/merlin-prf-ro-membrane-ge-genuine-membrane.html
4021 membrane
http://gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/all-products/pure-water-systems/water-treatment/reverse-osmosis-membranes/axeon-hf5-4021-21-ro-membrane.html
4040 membrane
http://gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/all-products/pure-water-systems/water-treatment/reverse-osmosis-membranes/axeon-hf5-4040-40-ro-membrane.html
There are other suppliers out there who also sell PRF r/o's. GAPS water and Window Cleaning Warehouse are a couple.
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Im one of those guys wo has used a 4040 for the last 4 years or so and have had nothing but problems with it.
Different membranes - same problem, they only last 6 months. I replace a membrane, it works for a while, water quality deteriorates so its only removing 70-75%; then I try a different one either HF5 or HF4 and the same thing.
Ive bought one of these Pentairs from Alex and have still got an unopened bag of resin sat in the shed from 2 1/2 months ago. Its currently chucking out water at 14ppm with a tap-water supply of 300.