Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: JSMC on March 01, 2016, 08:06:45 pm
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I have a licence for a few councils up here but it is a hindrance if you want to take someone on to help you for say a few days here n there.
Also feel for guys who employ n then find out worker is no use. Few quid down the drain n time wasted on application.
The licence does nothing but restrict a business if you need a worker quick. Surely this could be overturned as it restricts a business operating. I dont hear of licence for plumbers n sparks etc.
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I feel for you guy's up in Scotland & northern border counties that require a licence as sounds a right pain in the arse.
You should all get together and petition the Scottish gov to get it abolished as is just a money making scandal if you ask me. Most council don’t have the enforcement resources to bring none licence holders to task but are happy to take your money.
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I am going to be contacting a few councils and mps/ msp's as i feel this is not fare on our business.
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For all the folks in england wanting licences for your work, be careful what ye wish for.
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We obviously don't have the same problem of scumbags going around with ladder pretending to be window cleaners robbing properties and folk like they do in Scotland. That was the main reason why they brought it into force to help cut down the crime rate.
Hence why different Scottish council run boroughs do background check before issuing a licence. The ludicrous thing is if you happen to work in more than one borough you have to apply for a separate licence to work in each area. Not to mention every employee has to have their own licence not matter how long they stay as you have already mentioned.
To top it off apparently from what I've heard some Scottish council boroughs have opted out (not enforcing) the licensing scheme so window cleaner don’t have to pay for a licence.
No wonder why Scottish window cleaning firms are up in arms as I would be too
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I cleaned my first school the other week and they didn't even ask for a crb check
I'm in England
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Know of plenty folks who have a licence and have been in jail etc. It is a tax n nothing else.
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Know of plenty folks who have a licence and have been in jail etc. It is a tax n nothing else.
I do believe in Scotland they will pay for x cons to do a window cleaning nvq too as part of their rehabilitation back into society. How ironic is that ;D
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Criminals in every line of work. You cannot use this against people all their life.
Bankers are the biggest criminals about.
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I am going to be contacting a few councils and mps/ msp's as i feel this is not fare on our business.
JSMC
do you have a contact number? I would like to discuss licensing with you if possible, I have recently started correspondence with the Scottish Government, with the aim of getting a review into current licensing system and trying to improve it for the better.
Cheers
Tam
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Tam
Text me yer number
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Did you boys get anywhere with this? I'm about to approach my council too and wandered how far you got.
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Soupy,
This is a work in progress, with running my window cleaning round and trying to establish another 2 part time businesses, I am only able to devout 3 or 4 hours a week to this matter.
The scottish government set up a task group in 2002 to review licensing, this was a golden opportunity for window cleaners to have their say, but I don't think it was publicised enough as the only respondents from the window cleaning industry were the FWC and 2 window cleaners.
http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2002/07/15094/8708
The above was the document related to the review, I have in my possession the responses from all councils, organisations and individuals who responded, thanks to Davies Park and Doug Atkinson who took the time to go to edinburgh to get these documents for me. I may have to go back there myself though as they didn't realise there was another section of the responses on enforcement that we forgot to copy.
I am currently corresponding with the department within the scottish government who have the power to grant another review, however before they will consider it I am having to do loads of research and then to lodge a report requesting a review with them.
I am currently trying to do this single handed, but hoping my sons girlfriend who has just passed her law degree at Aberdeen Uni, will be able to help with the legal stuff, hopefully for free.
One task I am going to have to get round to soon is contacting all the councils again for info, on things such as license numbers, fees, length of license, enforcement procedures, conditions of licensing, etc.
I am also interested to hear from as many window cleaners as possible, licensed or unlicensed with their views on licensing and what changes they would like to system. I will make a separate post on this next week.
My personal view on licensing is that it is retained, but control of it is removed from the local authorities and run by a separate government department at national level or as a sub division within police Scotland.
With the merging of the old police forces and formation of a single body, Police Scotland, there is no longer any need for a window cleaner who needs multiple licenses to have to apply to several councils for the same police background check to be carried out several times. One police check should be sufficient to clear you to operate throughout Scotland, on one license. There are also variations of conditions and application requirements required by different councils, ie a minor conviction can get you a licence in one area but not in another..there are to many differences to list here, they should all be combined and simplified.
Types of licenses are a big issue as well..one year, 3 years, but no temporary license so that you can work during the application process which could take 21 days to 6 months to complete and the fees vary across the country from less than £50 upto £400.
Major changes are needed
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Where in Scotland are you?
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Glenrothes in Fife
My son lives and works in your neck of the woods...lives Newburgh, works Haigs Butchers in the city...I'm going up there for a week in August, if you want to meet up to discuss licensing.
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Glenrothes in Fife
My son lives and works in your neck of the woods...lives Newburgh, works Haigs Butchers in the city...I'm going up there for a week in August, if you want to meet up to discuss licensing.
That would be good. We've had many issues over the years but have never been sure on the best way forward to affect any change. We are about to approach the council with ideas how the licensing could be improved (for us and for them). I suppose change nationally is what's really needed.
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I cleaned my first school the other week and they didn't even ask for a crb check
I'm in England
They won't if you clean out of hours or during holidays. I wouldn't clean with the kids there anyway.
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Tam i lost yer number that day ye called.
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It was always a stupid idea that was never going to do any good! ::)roll
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I wonder, has anybody actually been taken to court over this nonsense and if so what have they actually been done for ?
Surely its not illegal to clean windows in Scotland unless you charge, so here's an idea call yourself a door cleaner and offer to
clean the windows for free for all your door cleaning customers.
Doesn't matter if your charging the same to clean two doors as the shiner up the road is charging for the windows as long as the
customer is alright with the cost. lol.
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I wonder, has anybody actually been taken to court over this nonsense and if so what have they actually been done for ?
Surely its not illegal to clean windows in Scotland unless you charge, so here's an idea call yourself a door cleaner and offer to
clean the windows for free for all your door cleaning customers.
Doesn't matter if your charging the same to clean two doors as the shiner up the road is charging for the windows as long as the
customer is alright with the cost. lol.
I can categorically confirm that you can be arrested, tried and convicted of the offence.
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Off hand I can't remember what the charge is, but it is something to do with the civic government Scotland act 1982.
Yes window cleaners have been taken to court, in various area in Scotland. I know in Dumfries & Galloway at least 4 were prosecuted and fined £200/£250, they all later gave up window cleaning.
Doug Atkinson and myself had great success with Dumfries & Galloway council in getting licenses enforced, in 2002 when licensing was introduced in the region, there was only 2 window cleaners licensed that includes me, by 2012, when I left the area there were 154 licensed window cleaners, we didn't get rid of all the unlicensed window cleaners, but we got down to around 25 unlicensed of which most were employees of national companies or cross border window cleaners coming into Scotland, who were a bit harder for the authorities to catch as they were only in area for few jobs then back across border again. A few were caught though and given the choice stay out or apply for license.
When I moved to area prices were worse than what I was getting in my previous area, (Fife), by the time I left area in 2012 and returned to Fife my prices down there were 50% higher than they are here now in Fife.
Better pricing down there wasn't exclusive to me, many of the lower priced window cleaners upped prices and we all ended on similar prices.
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The sad thing is that councils in Scotland that have licensing do not wish for it to be abolished, so we have no choice but to take on the councils to get a fairer system in place and for enforcement to be carried out, with 26 out of the 32 councils licensing window cleaners, we need more Doug Atkinsons and Tam Kay's to get involved and help us get the system improved.
It would be great if window cleaners South of the border gave us a bit of encouragement and support in our uphill battle instead of running the licensing system down, we all know it is a well flawed system, but we are stuck with it, we can only fight for change.
Thanks
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I wonder, has anybody actually been taken to court over this nonsense and if so what have they actually been done for ?
Surely its not illegal to clean windows in Scotland unless you charge, so here's an idea call yourself a door cleaner and offer to
clean the windows for free for all your door cleaning customers.
Doesn't matter if your charging the same to clean two doors as the shiner up the road is charging for the windows as long as the
customer is alright with the cost. lol.
I can categorically confirm that you can be arrested, tried and convicted of the offence.
Yes but what is the offence ? example, there are a couple of gardeners in my area who do the odd bit of window cleaning for their
customers now as they are not window cleaners surely they don't need a licence and if they charge it all to ground maintenance
then what can they be done for ?
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I wonder, has anybody actually been taken to court over this nonsense and if so what have they actually been done for ?
Surely its not illegal to clean windows in Scotland unless you charge, so here's an idea call yourself a door cleaner and offer to
clean the windows for free for all your door cleaning customers.
Doesn't matter if your charging the same to clean two doors as the shiner up the road is charging for the windows as long as the
customer is alright with the cost. lol.
I can categorically confirm that you can be arrested, tried and convicted of the offence.
Yes but what is the offence ? example, there are a couple of gardeners in my area who do the odd bit of window cleaning for their
customers now as they are not window cleaners surely they don't need a licence and if they charge it all to ground maintenance
then what can they be done for ?
Sean, this is an issue we have with licensing, some councils say that if cleaning the windows is part of a bigger job, an example the councils put to us, is a contractor does the cleaning of the windows of a supermarket as part of his or her job, the bigger part of the job being the cleaning of the store, then they do not need a license. However if they have a dedicated window cleaning team that moves from store to store then yes they do need a license, so I guess the same would apply to the gardener or painter who clean the windows after the main job is done.
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Tam i lost yer number that day ye called.
Joe I will get my number to you over the weekend.
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The sad thing is that councils in Scotland that have licensing do not wish for it to be abolished, so we have no choice but to take on the councils to get a fairer system in place and for enforcement to be carried out, with 26 out of the 32 councils licensing window cleaners, we need more Doug Atkinsons and Tam Kay's to get involved and help us get the system improved.
It would be great if window cleaners South of the border gave us a bit of encouragement and support in our uphill battle instead of running the licensing system down, we all know it is a well flawed system, but we are stuck with it, we can only fight for change.
Thanks
Are you kidding? I remember how great this whole thing was gonna be, now you ARE stuck with it. It was the likes of the people mentioned who got you into this mess to begin with- make your bed, lie in it an' all that. ;D
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I wonder, has anybody actually been taken to court over this nonsense and if so what have they actually been done for ?
Surely its not illegal to clean windows in Scotland unless you charge, so here's an idea call yourself a door cleaner and offer to
clean the windows for free for all your door cleaning customers.
Doesn't matter if your charging the same to clean two doors as the shiner up the road is charging for the windows as long as the
customer is alright with the cost. lol.
I can categorically confirm that you can be arrested, tried and convicted of the offence.
Yes but what is the offence ? example, there are a couple of gardeners in my area who do the odd bit of window cleaning for their
customers now as they are not window cleaners surely they don't need a licence and if they charge it all to ground maintenance
then what can they be done for ?
The offence is cleaning windows without a licence contrary to the civic government (Scotland) act 1982.
The byelaw (as with most byelaws I'd imagine) is poorly worded and could be twisted to suit by a decent solicitor. Most window cleaners operating without a licence aren't going to have access to a decent solicitor though.
As far as I'm concerned that's besides the point. The conviction and punishment are insignificant compared to the loss of earnings while issues with applications are sorted out. Say I interview someone for a job and decide to employ them, it's at least 28 days (sometimes 3 months) before they can legally clean windows, it's pretty dumb. The point isn't 'how illegal is it' or 'how can I get around it', the point for me is to get it working properly so that it can do what it was intended to do: minimise the dole monkeys, working for beer tokens and help professionalise the industry.
Your gardener friend wouldn't need a licence (in Aberdeenshire, I can't really comment on other areas) to clean the windows at a job where window cleaning was not the main activity.
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If I was in Jockland I wouldn't pay it on principle!
The principle being that it's immoral to expect someone to pay a Tax in order to be able to earn a living.
Totally out of order in my opinion.
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That was my thinking on the matter Soupy, its just a poll tax on honest window cleaners and totally useless against guys
who aren't afraid to play the system.
I feel there's something very wrong and corrupt about this and cant believe that its Scotland we are talking about and not
China or similar.
You can manufacture fit and repair a window but need a licence if you want to clean it, you couldn't make that up.
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That was my thinking on the matter Soupy, its just a poll tax on honest window cleaners and totally useless against guys
who aren't afraid to play the system.
I feel there's something very wrong and corrupt about this and cant believe that its Scotland we are talking about and not
China or similar.
You can manufacture fit and repair a window but need a licence if you want to clean it, you couldn't make that up.
I don't really think it's corruption, more like incompetence on a national scale. I've been to a few licence hearings at the council and when you account for everyone's time to decide on the licence for that 1 person being heard; it'd take 100 years before they broke even.
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It was "window cleaners" that wanted the licensing if I remember correctly? Didn't "they" have to hound the councils to bring it in to begin with?
It reminds me of the whole "water tank in van" situation. It was never an issue for insurance companies until window cleaners themselves advised the insurance companies it was! ::)roll
Window cleaners should stick to window cleaning IMO! ;D
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It was "window cleaners" that wanted the licensing if I remember correctly? Didn't "they" have to hound the councils to bring it in to begin with?
It reminds me of the whole "water tank in van" situation. It was never an issue for insurance companies until window cleaners themselves advised the insurance companies it was! ::)roll
Window cleaners should stick to window cleaning IMO! ;D
Maybe it was. It certainly wasn't me though, I'd only have been 2 so hadn't quite mastered the squeegee yet.
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That was my thinking on the matter Soupy, its just a poll tax on honest window cleaners and totally useless against guys
who aren't afraid to play the system.
I feel there's something very wrong and corrupt about this and cant believe that its Scotland we are talking about and not
China or similar.
You can manufacture fit and repair a window but need a licence if you want to clean it, you couldn't make that up.
I don't really think it's corruption, more like incompetence on a national scale. I've been to a few licence hearings at the council and when you account for everyone's time to decide on the licence for that 1 person being heard; it'd take 100 years before they broke even.
Don't be fooled Soupy its corruption through and through, from the crafty shiners who wanted this introduced to make it
harder for the guy next door to head out with a ladder and bucket and compete with their businesses to that team of licence
deciders who are all making a nice living by making the process as long and hard as possible and keeping themselves in work.
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I'm unsure of the origins to be honest, you may well be right. I doubt it though. The problem doesn't lie with the man with a ladder and a bucket, like I said, the punishment is insignificant compared to loss of earnings during the application process. One man bands just get going while the application process is underway. You can't really do that if you are a larger company employing people and trying to do right by them.
I believe the really big boys don't even bother, they probably just budget for the fine if it ever arises. I've interviewed lads who've worked for nationals, when I've asked if they have a window cleaning licence they just gave me a puzzled look.
It's me in the middle that suffers.
I lost out a big schools contract to a national, none of their window cleaners were licenced to clean windows in Aberdeenshire yet here they were on council property, cleaning windows.
You really couldn't make it up.
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It reminds me of the whole "water tank in van" situation. It was never an issue for insurance companies until window cleaners themselves advised the insurance companies it was! ::)roll
I'm sure it was.
And aren't window cleaners allowed to change their minds about licences?
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I wrote a long winded reply to previous posts but I have some how lost it and can't be bothered rewriting it.
But some points we're
Window cleaners did not fight to get licensing introduced, this came into effect as the police, councils and scottish assembly wanted to clean up several trades associated with criminal activities, the ice cream wars in the 70s prompted this action.
As said window cleaners didn't ask for licensing so don't go blaming the modern day window cleaners for trying to improve a corruptish setup, that we work with. I'm sure if we had a vote on whether to keep or abolish licensing, the abolish vote would win, but to take on the councils and Holyrood would cost tens maybe hundreds of thousands of £s, can you see window cleaners up her chipping in to a fighting fund for abolishing licensing? Won't happen. So it's easier and cheaper to fight for improvements and fairness, like we are doing just now.
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I remember Doug Atkinson (among others) actively seeking it and plenty of windys chipping in that it would be a good thing?
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I remember Doug Atkinson (among others) actively seeking it and plenty of windys chipping in that it would be a good thing?
Councils have been licensing window cleaners since 1982 , long before Doug, myself and others started window cleaning businesses. We are not responsible for window cleaning licenses being introduced.
The Scottish licensed window cleaners network (SLWCN) which Doug, myself and others formed, was set up in 2006, to actively seek improvements and fairness in the licensing system.
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I remember Doug Atkinson (among others) actively seeking it and plenty of windys chipping in that it would be a good thing?
Councils have been licensing window cleaners since 1982 , long before Doug, myself and others started window cleaning businesses. We are not responsible for window cleaning licenses being introduced.
The Scottish licensed window cleaners network (SLWCN) which Doug, myself and others formed, was set up in 2006, to actively seek improvements and fairness in the licensing system.
That's what I'm thinking of, I take it you've not got very far with it then?
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I remember Doug Atkinson (among others) actively seeking it and plenty of windys chipping in that it would be a good thing?
Councils have been licensing window cleaners since 1982 , long before Doug, myself and others started window cleaning businesses. We are not responsible for window cleaning licenses being introduced.
The Scottish licensed window cleaners network (SLWCN) which Doug, myself and others formed, was set up in 2006, to actively seek improvements and fairness in the licensing system.
That's what I'm thinking of, I take it you've not got very far with it then?
We have had successes in getting numbers of licensed window cleaners up, councils to employ enforcement officers, etc.
Until we came along councils were happy to sit back taking license fees and refusing to deal with complaints. Several councils we have dealt with now deal with the complaints as there are now procedures in place where we can pursue the matters further if they don't satisfactorily deal with complaints.
But there is still a very long way to go, I am hoping that we can see changes to the system by the time the next Holyrood elections come around in 2021.
The Scottish government in previous attempts to get improvements kept sending us back to deal with the councils to get these improvements, but I have possibly made our first break through to get it reviewed by the government.
I just need to find the time to get input from window cleaners as to what gripes they have currently and what changes changes they would like to see, the more support I have to demand change the easier it will be to achieve it. I am even taking onboard the gripes yourself and Sean K have as I feel many of the window cleaners up here have the same issues with licensing.
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I'm in. Anything I can do to help, let me know.
I like the enforcement officer 👮 I'll be putting that in my letter to the council.
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I have had a licence for 12 years and have only been asked to produce it once, about 10 years ago ( by a community police officer ).
The local rag ran a story a few years back urging householders to only use window cleaners who possess a valid Fife Council licence, (obviously the councils cheapest way of trying to weed out unlicenced operatives ) the list of whom could be found on the SLWCN web site..........surprise surprise, my name ( and many others I know who had a valid licence ) wasn't on the SLWCN site :(
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KS,
The listings on the website was a good idea at the time, but getting councils to supply updated lists on a regular basis was an uphill struggle, some councils simply refused to supply lists although anyone has the right to view or copy the list on request.
It got to the stage that Doug would only request a list from the council whenever a member asked him to do it.
I think Doug has now deactivated the website, I will try getting hold of him next week to try getting it back up and running.
I am requesting a list of license holders from Fife Council on Monday morning, as I want to know how far along my application is, I can forward this list onto you when I get it if you wish.
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KS,
The listings on the website was a good idea at the time, but getting councils to supply updated lists on a regular basis was an uphill struggle, some councils simply refused to supply lists although anyone has the right to view or copy the list on request.
It got to the stage that Doug would only request a list from the council whenever a member asked him to do it.
I think Doug has now deactivated the website, I will try getting hold of him next week to try getting it back up and running.
I am requesting a list of license holders from Fife Council on Monday morning, as I want to know how far along my application is, I can forward this list onto you when I get it if you wish.
Na wouldn't bother passin it on to me mate, just makes my blood boil knowing how many unlicensed window cleaners are able to work my area without one. Your explanation as to why my name wasn't on the list says it all, the council will take your money and do nothing in return apart from issuing you with an ID badge. I remember looking at the SLWCN a while back and was surprised at how many of the window cleaners had let their licence lapse. Now surely it wouldn't be too hard for some enforcement officer to check the list and ensure that all the window cleaners on the data base who were still trading had an up to date licence . The next time mines is due for renewal I will seriously consider not renewing it.
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See companies out n about round towns working for nationals. Not a chance in hell these guys have them for every council area they work.
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I have had a licence for 20 years or more,dont think it's a bad thing my two issues would be why it has to go out on pubic notice for about a month ,then go to police for a criminal background report,,who have 21 days to respond,never been done within this time scale,i feel in these days of computers the police should know everything you have done in minutes,making the need for the public review unnecessary,also why renew every 3 years ,needless unless you have a conviction.
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I have had a licence for 20 years or more,dont think it's a bad thing my two issues would be why it has to go out on pubic notice for about a month ,then go to police for a criminal background report,,who have 21 days to respond,never been done within this time scale,i feel in these days of computers the police should know everything you have done in minutes,making the need for the public review unnecessary,also why renew every 3 years ,needless unless you have a conviction.
If you get a conviction the police might complain that you are no longer "a fit and proper person" and take your licence off you.
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I know plenty who have served jail time n have a licence. You cannot keep using that against someone who is trying to work. Yes there will be some crimes which should be looked at by the panel.
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Peeping Tom and burglar. Can't really see why any other crime would be a problem.
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Peeping Tom and burglar. Can't really see why any other crime would be a problem.
Peedo's ? rapist ... Murderers , I think there's worse people than peeping toms and burglars that shouldn't be working on people's property's
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Peeping Tom and burglar. Can't really see why any other crime would be a problem.
Peedo's ? rapist ... Murderers , I think there's worse people than peeping toms and burglars that shouldn't be working on people's property's
Yeah but you can't really stop all criminals from working. I picked on peeping toms and burglars because there would be obvious opportunities there.
Obviously there are other reasons to not grant a licence.
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As I understand it, its a criminal offence to be caught without a licence. So I could end up with a criminal record for trying to earn a living. I moved from one area where a licence wasn't needed to another where it was, so I wasn't conscious of the need to apply for one. I got stopped one morning by the police as I was cleaning the outside of a Pub. The Procurator Fiscal got involved and I had to go in front of the licencing committee, apologise and plead my case. They granted me a licence and a couple of months later the Procurator Fiscal wrote me saying the matter wasn't going to be pursued. I don't mind paying for a licence, I think we are in a unique position being around peoples homes when they are not home and often knowing when customers are on holiday. However the inconsistency of the system frustrates me.
Now we have one police force it shouldn't be necessary to be licenced several times. We should be able to take on employees for a trial period without having to wait weeks or months or having to pay for a 3 year licence when they'll probably only be around a few months. We should be able to take on students during the summer months. We should be able to take people out for a day to give them a taste of the job without risking breaking the law. I feel as though I'm ranting but changes do need to be made.
I'm happy to support moves in this direction as long as its done respectfully and doesn't involve politics or protests.
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I agree we should be able to hire someone for a short time to help out or have a temp licence whilst you trial someone. Im pretty sure somewhere this could be classed as restricting trade or something.
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As I understand it, its a criminal offence to be caught without a licence. So I could end up with a criminal record for trying to earn a living. I moved from one area where a licence wasn't needed to another where it was, so I wasn't conscious of the need to apply for one. I got stopped one morning by the police as I was cleaning the outside of a Pub. The Procurator Fiscal got involved and I had to go in front of the licencing committee, apologise and plead my case. They granted me a licence and a couple of months later the Procurator Fiscal wrote me saying the matter wasn't going to be pursued. I don't mind paying for a licence, I think we are in a unique position being around peoples homes when they are not home and often knowing when customers are on holiday. However the inconsistency of the system frustrates me.
Now we have one police force it shouldn't be necessary to be licenced several times. We should be able to take on employees for a trial period without having to wait weeks or months or having to pay for a 3 year licence when they'll probably only be around a few months. We should be able to take on students during the summer months. We should be able to take people out for a day to give them a taste of the job without risking breaking the law. I feel as though I'm ranting but changes do need to be made.
I'm happy to support moves in this direction as long as its done respectfully and doesn't involve politics or protests.
David which area did you move to that required the license...not having a license is not a criminal offence it is a civil offence, there is a difference. Difference explained here
http://www.landlordlawblog.co.uk/2010/12/18/criminal-law-and-civil-law-explained-they-are-not-the-same/
I do agree that temporary licenses should be available in each county area, a DBS check can be done in seven days, I think any serious potential employee should be responsible for paying the £25 for this check to be carried out and the check being lodged with the council, who should have the licensing manager review the check and decide there and then if application for a full license would be go through unchallenged, if it will go through unchallenged a temporary license should be issued until such times that the full license is granted and issued.
If there is a chance that the application maybe challenged then the licensing manager should be able to use his discretion, he/she will have a rough idea of what will get approved at licensing committee and what won't. If it won't pass the licensing committee then no temporary license should be issued?
Thoughts?
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Hello again,
yes you would think it should be a civil offence, however look at this link.
http://www.eastlothian.gov.uk/news/article/1731/new_licence_requirements_for_window_cleaners_and_second_hand_traders
This states that its a criminal offence to be caught without a license?
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Thanks for that link David, I wasn't aware East Lothian had started licensing window cleaners, I will call them after work today to get clarification from them on why they see it as a criminal offence, when the other 26 councils class it as a civil offence.