Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: ascjim on February 23, 2016, 08:59:12 am
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This is to help people.
If you don't like the fact that people want to do better then you, then don't read it.
Originally posted at: http://purewash.blogspot.co.uk/
The cost of employing.
There are many people out there getting incorrect information when it comes to the true cost of employing and its putting them off.
On some forums, I've seen some extremes that you need to earn x5 the employees wage to be able to cover the cover the cost.
This is rubbish.
What I intend with this post to reassure want-to-be employers that employing your first member of staff isn't as costly or hard as they think.
Everything in this post is from my experience of employing.
Anyone in any field can use this post to work out their employment costs.
I will be writing a second part of this post for the window / gutter cleaning industry next week.
So, what costs do we need to consider?
Wages
This is obvious. As I write this the current national minimum wage (2015-2016) is: £6.70 for anyone aged 21 and over.
For this example we will pay our new member of staff £7.00 per hour.
£7.00 x 40 working hours per week = £280.00
Employers national insurance
Currently, this is rated at 13.8% for employees over 21. The first £156.00 of wages per person per week isn't subject to this rate.
£280 - £156.00 = £124.00 (£124.00 is now subject to the 13.8%)
£124.00 + 13.8% = £141.11 - £124.00 = £17.11
Total cost per week: £17.11
Pensions
I have no experience with this yet, as my company doesn't need to set anything up until 2017. (this was written in early 2016)
For more information please visit: https://www.gov.uk/workplace-pensions/about-workplace-pensions
Payroll
I don't see the point in doing this yourselves to save a few quid.
For me, my accountant charged me £37.00 a month for my books and an extra £7.00 per month for each employee.
I highly recommend having an accountant when your employing as it can save time that money can't buy back.
£37.00 + £7.00 = £44.00 ÷ 4 = £11.00
Holiday pay
Each employee is owed 28 days holiday a year total.
Using the same example of £7.00 per hour for our new employee = £56.00 per day x 28 days = £1568.00 ÷ 52 weeks = £30.15
So you need to earn £30.15 per week to pay for your employees holidays. Not as bad as you thought?
Insurance
Employers liability insurance cost is different in each field.
My public liability covers everything that is worked on. Not all policy's cover this, so make sure you read the small print.
My current employers and public liability is £45.75 per month.
£45.75 ÷ 4 = £11.43 per week.
The basic cost of an employee per week.
Wages: £280.00
Employers national insurance: £17.11
Accountant and payroll: £11.00
Holiday pay: £30.15
Public and employers liability: £11.43
Total: £349.69
÷ 5 days
= £69.93 per day.
Easy peasy right?
Next is to work out the other running costs of your industry. I will be writing next week about the extra running cost in the window / general cleaning industry.
Also, I will be making an in-depth video of this post soon, so please subscribe to my YouTube channel so you don't miss it.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpcOZbe7ZEm8WNRiUFi3opQ
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Awesome post James 👍
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Yeah really great post mate really helpful.
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Although it doesn't include the other associated costs - van, fuel, insurance etc, assuming they are out on their own.
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Although it doesn't include the other associated costs - van, fuel, insurance etc, assuming they are out on their own.
Nor includes recruitment, training, workware, ppe costs and most importantly employees going sick, being unreliable, doing shoddy work, upsetting customers, ripping the firm off and all the hassle that goes with employing people especially when being paid low wages. It's not as simple as people make out it to be which can put a lot of people off employing surely?
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James a superb post look how easy that was to put down useful useable information that applies to quiet a few people on here,best post I've seen for a while well done.
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Candidate for post of the year. Something that this forum's been lacking for a few months.
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This is to help people.
If you don't like the fact that people want to do better then you, then don't read it.
Originally posted at: http://purewash.blogspot.co.uk/
The cost of employing.
There are many people out there getting incorrect information when it comes to the true cost of employing and its putting them off.
On some forums, I've seen some extremes that you need to earn x5 the employees wage to be able to cover the cover the cost.
This is rubbish.
What I intend with this post to reassure want-to-be employers that employing your first member of staff isn't as costly or hard as they think.
Everything in this post is from my experience of employing.
Anyone in any field can use this post to work out their employment costs.
I will be writing a second part of this post for the window / gutter cleaning industry next week.
So, what costs do we need to consider?
Wages
This is obvious. As I write this the current national minimum wage (2015-2016) is: £6.70 for anyone aged 21 and over.
For this example we will pay our new member of staff £7.00 per hour.
£7.00 x 40 working hours per week = £280.00
Employers national insurance
Currently, this is rated at 13.8% for employees over 21. The first £156.00 of wages per person per week isn't subject to this rate.
£280 - £156.00 = £124.00 (£124.00 is now subject to the 13.8%)
£124.00 + 13.8% = £141.11 - £124.00 = £17.11
Total cost per week: £17.11
Pensions
I have no experience with this yet, as my company doesn't need to set anything up until 2017. (this was written in early 2016)
For more information please visit: https://www.gov.uk/workplace-pensions/about-workplace-pensions
Payroll
I don't see the point in doing this yourselves to save a few quid.
For me, my accountant charged me £37.00 a month for my books and an extra £7.00 per month for each employee.
I highly recommend having an accountant when your employing as it can save time that money can't buy back.
£37.00 + £7.00 = £44.00 ÷ 4 = £11.00
Holiday pay
Each employee is owed 28 days holiday a year total.
Using the same example of £7.00 per hour for our new employee = £56.00 per day x 28 days = £1568.00 ÷ 52 weeks = £30.15
So you need to earn £30.15 per week to pay for your employees holidays. Not as bad as you thought?
Insurance
Employers liability insurance cost is different in each field.
My public liability covers everything that is worked on. Not all policy's cover this, so make sure you read the small print.
My current employers and public liability is £45.75 per month.
£45.75 ÷ 4 = £11.43 per week.
The basic cost of an employee per week.
Wages: £280.00
Employers national insurance: £17.11
Accountant and payroll: £11.00
Holiday pay: £30.15
Public and employers liability: £11.43
Total: £349.69
÷ 5 days
= £69.93 per day.
Easy peasy right?
Next is to work out the other running costs of your industry. I will be writing next week about the extra running cost in the window / general cleaning industry.
Also, I will be making an in-depth video of this post soon, so please subscribe to my YouTube channel so you don't miss it.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpcOZbe7ZEm8WNRiUFi3opQ
Also worth remembering that as they are making you money, you in turn are making money for the tax man, in effect you may well be passing over 29% of any profit they earn you.
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probably the best post I've actually seen on here! looking forward to part 2 James ;D
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Very well explained. Thank you.
Robbo
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You VAT registered James.
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Although it doesn't include the other associated costs - van, fuel, insurance etc, assuming they are out on their own.
Nor includes recruitment, training, workware, ppe costs and most importantly employees going sick, being unreliable, doing shoddy work, upsetting customers, ripping the firm off and all the hassle that goes with employing people especially when being paid low wages. It's not as simple as people make out it to be which can put a lot of people off employing surely?
This is it. I understand the need for the initial post but whats in that post are the bare bones of what it costs and theres plenty more to consider. Theres all sorts of other costs in my experience that haven't been included; these are slightly less obvious and require a bit of time to realise.
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Ah ripping people off there's my favourite subject 8 weekly will say,at least James has outlined a rough guide which is more than you can say for certain posts-threads. At least he didn't say I employ and it's off to the land of the fairys when the money's rolling in month in month out all he needs to do is keep getting the work eh.
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Great post.
Really appreciated.
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Talking about ripping people off https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_2zx0SDpJc
Waving a 60 foot stick about in the middle of a road has got to be worth more £7 per hour surely ???
Put it another way James would you want to clean that premier inn building for only £7 an hour yourself ?
I don't know how you can sleep at night mucker and I'm betting the lads on the pole also did not get much sleep with the pain they where in afterwards...Shame on you ;D
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Talking about ripping people off https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_2zx0SDpJc
Waving a 60 foot stick about in the middle of a road has got to be worth more £7 per hour surely ???
Put it another way James would you want to clean that premier inn building for only £7 an hour yourself ?
I don't know how you can sleep at night mucker and I'm betting the lads on the pole also did not get much sleep with the pain they where in afterwards...Shame on you ;D
:D :D :D that takes me back, been there and done the same for somebody else
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Talking about ripping people off https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_2zx0SDpJc
Waving a 60 foot stick about in the middle of a road has got to be worth more £7 per hour surely ???
Put it another way James would you want to clean that premier inn building for only £7 an hour yourself ?
I don't know how you can sleep at night mucker and I'm betting the lads on the pole also did not get much sleep with the pain they where in afterwards...Shame on you ;D
:D :D :D that takes me back, been there and done the same for somebody else
Barry, I'm betting it did not take you long to say stick yer job where the sun don't shine either ;D
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Excellent post.
However getting people to stay around at £7 per hour must be hard.
With fuel and everything else you must be looking at a good £450-£550 per week.
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Good post, forgot to mention sick pay when they're not earning for you but you are having to pay out for them and maternity and paternity leave as well. Doing wages is a doddle if you have the relevant books to work out the scales.
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has the makings of a good thread. Hopefully people can be positive about it.
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I'm waiting for the likes of seank or cumbucket to chip in myself. Then the folks that prefer to franchise out the work instead of employing.
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Talking about ripping people off https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_2zx0SDpJc
Waving a 60 foot stick about in the middle of a road has got to be worth more £7 per hour surely ???
Put it another way James would you want to clean that premier inn building for only £7 an hour yourself ?
I don't know how you can sleep at night mucker and I'm betting the lads on the pole also did not get much sleep with the pain they where in afterwards...Shame on you ;D
:D :D :D that takes me back, been there and done the same for somebody else
Barry, I'm betting it did not take you long to say stick yer job where the sun don't shine either ;D
Not quite, nearly 2 years, but that was 10 years ago !
you could sit behind a checkout in Lidls for a better hourly rate than that :D
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I have to agree. £7 an hour is way too low.
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I'm waiting for the likes of seank or cumbucket to chip in myself. Then the folks that prefer to franchise out the work instead of employing.
OK then, James great post, Smurf as per usual your nothing but a buffoon. ;D
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I'm waiting for the likes of seank or cumbucket to chip in myself. Then the folks that prefer to franchise out the work instead of employing.
OK then, James great post, Smurf as per usual your nothing but a buffoon. ;D
;D ;D
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Talking about ripping people off https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_2zx0SDpJc
Waving a 60 foot stick about in the middle of a road has got to be worth more £7 per hour surely ???
Put it another way James would you want to clean that premier inn building for only £7 an hour yourself ?
I don't know how you can sleep at night mucker and I'm betting the lads on the pole also did not get much sleep with the pain they where in afterwards...Shame on you ;D
:D :D :D that takes me back, been there and done the same for somebody else
Barry, I'm betting it did not take you long to say stick yer job where the sun don't shine either ;D
Not quite, nearly 2 years, but that was 10 years ago !
you could sit behind a checkout in Lidls for a better hourly rate than that :D
Nearly 2 years was you raving bonkers or just a bit slow in figuring it out you where being taking for a ride ;D
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Smurf, 12 years ago £7 ph was not so bad for a div like me,
having returned from overseas and having a pre school child at the time I was greatful for a boss who allowed me flexible hours. Its easy to get stuck in waged employment with bills to pay and took time to save money and find courage to step outside of that. But a 40 hour week in 2016 30p an hour over the minimum wage is shocking. I doubt the employee it would attract would feel appreciated or as you quite rightly point out retained for very long.
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Although it doesn't include the other associated costs - van, fuel, insurance etc, assuming they are out on their own.
Yes your right, this is just for general employing. The running expenses will be posted next week ;D
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Although it doesn't include the other associated costs - van, fuel, insurance etc, assuming they are out on their own.
Nor includes recruitment, training, workware, ppe costs and most importantly employees going sick, being unreliable, doing shoddy work, upsetting customers, ripping the firm off and all the hassle that goes with employing people especially when being paid low wages. It's not as simple as people make out it to be which can put a lot of people off employing surely?
This post is just the cost of employing. Not running costs.
If you employ someone good, surley you won't have these problems.
£7.00 per hour is an example. My guys get £9.00 ph.
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You VAT registered James.
Flat rate at 12% works best for us.
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I have to agree. £7 an hour is way too low.
It's just an example.
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Smurf, 12 years ago £7 ph was not so bad for a div like me,
having returned from overseas and having a pre school child at the time I was greatful for a boss who allowed me flexible hours. Its easy to get stuck in waged employment with bills to pay and took time to save money and find courage to step outside of that. But a 40 hour week in 2016 30p an hour over the minimum wage is shocking. I doubt the employee it would attract would feel appreciated or as you quite rightly point out retained for very long.
Please read it, it states its an example. My guys get £9.00 ph.
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Smurf, 12 years ago £7 ph was not so bad for a div like me,
having returned from overseas and having a pre school child at the time I was greatful for a boss who allowed me flexible hours. Its easy to get stuck in waged employment with bills to pay and took time to save money and find courage to step outside of that. But a 40 hour week in 2016 30p an hour over the minimum wage is shocking. I doubt the employee it would attract would feel appreciated or as you quite rightly point out retained for very long.
Please read it, it states its an example. My guys get £9.00 ph.
I did read and replied to smurfs comment and what you had written at that time which then led us to believe you were paying £7 ph.
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Smurf, 12 years ago £7 ph was not so bad for a div like me,
having returned from overseas and having a pre school child at the time I was greatful for a boss who allowed me flexible hours. Its easy to get stuck in waged employment with bills to pay and took time to save money and find courage to step outside of that. But a 40 hour week in 2016 30p an hour over the minimum wage is shocking. I doubt the employee it would attract would feel appreciated or as you quite rightly point out retained for very long.
Please read it, it states its an example. My guys get £9.00 ph.
Sorry James so why did you not do the figures based on £9.00 ph then as would have been a more realistic example on what window cleaning employees get paid surely?
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£9-10 an hour is fair enough I reckon.
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Yeah James do it on £9 and £10 per hour.
I'm too stupid to work it out for myself ;D
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Lol it's either another 40 a week or 80 you donut 😂😂😂😂
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I just took this from another thread on employing copsts that you wrote James...
Make your mind up how much you pay! Is it £7 £9 or £10 ph??
Also your deluded to think you get £140 profit for a day on a 2 man van!!
The holiday and sick comes out of the profit.
They get paid £10.00 per hour = £80.00 per day.
2 man van takes a bare minimum of £300.00 so £140.00 profit for the day.
Some gutter days it can go to £400 - £500 and the best I've had from one van is around £900.00
I only have 3 guys. In 2 vans.
1 is working all the regular domestic work.
There other 2 also have regular domestic work, but have the gutter vac in the van.
So van 1 is always busy all year.
Van 2 takes all the new work coming in and big jobs.
I take £3000.00 a month and the rest stays in the business account.
I work 9-11 on the computer then go gym until 1 and then do quotes after if I need to.
All you need to do is plan your day / month / year in advance and set goals.
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I just took this from another thread on employing copsts that you wrote James...
Make your mind up how much you pay! Is it £7 £9 or £10 ph??
Also your deluded to think you get £140 profit for a day on a 2 man van!!
Yeah my supervisor gets £10
The holiday and sick comes out of the profit.
They get paid £10.00 per hour = £80.00 per day.
2 man van takes a bare minimum of £300.00 so £140.00 profit for the day.
Some gutter days it can go to £400 - £500 and the best I've had from one van is around £900.00
I only have 3 guys. In 2 vans.
1 is working all the regular domestic work.
There other 2 also have regular domestic work, but have the gutter vac in the van.
So van 1 is always busy all year.
Van 2 takes all the new work coming in and big jobs.
I take £3000.00 a month and the rest stays in the business account.
I work 9-11 on the computer then go gym until 1 and then do quotes after if I need to.
All you need to do is plan your day / month / year in advance and set goals.
Yeah my supervisor gets £10.00.
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This wasn't just written for window cleaners. It's for ANYONE that wants to employ. It isn't just posted here.
The minimum wage is £6.70, so I rounded it up to make things simple.
It does state the blog post was for ANYONE wanting to employ.
Thanks for the good and positive comments, you guys will go far, you have the right attitude.
And to the rest, try and not put a downer on everything, life is too short.
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I actually found the part of your post " if you don't like the fact that people want to do better than you, then don't read it " quite insulting to those that for whatever reason choose not to employ......... even tho I employ myself.
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Well dont put they get payed if its he gets paid.
Good post though anyway.
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I actually found the part of your post " if you don't like the fact that people want to do better than you, then don't read it " quite insulting to those that for whatever reason choose not to employ......... even tho I employ myself.
To be fair I found that rather insulting too. There are many that have employees on here already James or have been employers and even some or will reach a point to decide how they want to grow their businnes or not be it taking on staff, going down the franchise root or just be happy doing what they are doing.
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Lol it's either another 40 a week or 80 you donut 😂😂😂😂
So none of the other costs change then?
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Has aweek gone by already 🤔🙄
Darran
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Has aweek gone by already 🤔🙄
Darran
No, it's only a five day ban. Again.
Vin
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Interesting post.
What I don't understand is how you employ someone on the books 5 days a week in this industry when you can't work 5 days a week.
Most of the time 4 full days Monday to Saturday is best you can manage.
Understand people on here do employ just interested how they manage with lost time due to bad weather; bad enough cost yourself money let alone paying someone else.
Lee
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What don't you understand Lee?
Monday to Friday - out you go !!
Winter maybe slightly trickier as days are shorter, so sometimes Saturday is required, but TBH we've not had a day rained off for months, stopped early or started late on the bad windy days, just do some extra hours the following days
Darran
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Interesting post.
What I don't understand is how you employ someone on the books 5 days a week in this industry when you can't work 5 days a week.
Most of the time 4 full days Monday to Saturday is best you can manage.
Understand people on here do employ just interested how they manage with lost time due to bad weather; bad enough cost yourself money let alone paying someone else.
Lee
Good question ;)
Most will probably say they get their workers to work in all weathers (within reason). If they don't work they don't get paid. Not so great for the workers if the firm is trad only unless they have internal contracts to be getting on with when they can't work outside.
Getting cold, miserable & wet is all part of the job for most. Then they moan too when it gets a bit warm outside so you can't win ;D
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Interesting post.
What I don't understand is how you employ someone on the books 5 days a week in this industry when you can't work 5 days a week.
Most of the time 4 full days Monday to Saturday is best you can manage.
Understand people on here do employ just interested how they manage with lost time due to bad weather; bad enough cost yourself money let alone paying someone else.
Lee
I have had one person working for me since January 2015. Days lost - 1. And we leafleted. Second person starts on 1st April hopefully.
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Steve when are you going to start?
;)
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Steve when are you going to start?
;)
did he ever ;D ;D ;D
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CIU at its finest.
Page 1 - Awesome post; thanks; very helpful - post of the year
Page 2 - This isn't right; stop willy waving; chumbucket/winpro arrives and is deleted
Page 3 - "I'm insulted"; it won't work; waste of time reading etc.
;D
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Steve when are you going to start?
;)
did he ever ;D ;D ;D
Cheeky gits, I did three hours today. ;D
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CIU at its finest.
Page 1 - Awesome post; thanks; very helpful - post of the year
Page 2 - This isn't right; stop willy waving; chumbucket/winpro arrives and is deleted
Page 3 - "I'm insulted"; it won't work; waste of time reading etc.
;D
Indeed ;D
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Interesting post.
What I don't understand is how you employ someone on the books 5 days a week in this industry when you can't work 5 days a week.
Most of the time 4 full days Monday to Saturday is best you can manage.
Understand people on here do employ just interested how they manage with lost time due to bad weather; bad enough cost yourself money let alone paying someone else.
Lee
Think I have lost about 2-3 days this year due to weather. But I actually think it's more like 1 or 2
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@Lee
When DtM worked for me he was guaranteed 4 days nominally 8.30 am until 4.30 pm (actually 32 hours pay and lunch and tea breaks were included) and the plan was that "generally" he would work Mon-Thursday and have Friday off but that any day or half day the weather or scheduling stopped us working then he would have to make it up on the Friday and extremely rarely the Saturday.
But I would always "give him the edge" if the work was completed and usually he would turn up at my house between 7.30 and 8.30 and we would work until about 3.00/3.30.
But if we were behind due to heavy rain/ice etc then perhaps about once a month he made up time on the Friday and I think once in three years we worked a Saturday from 10 am til 3pm one winter just before Xmas break.
He also had to take his hols to cover the non-bank holidays between Xmas and New Year.
I also paid him a bonus if certain quarterly figures were reached and in the 3 years he worked directly for me I think only one quarter he didn't get target.
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Thanks for your detailed breakdown Granville Gold.
That makes sense.
Everyone does things differently I know but window cleaning in the rain is something I try to avoid.
Yes light rain if I have.
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Thanks for your detailed breakdown Granville Gold.
That makes sense.
Everyone does things differently I know but window cleaning in the rain is something I try to avoid.
Yes light rain if I have.
Unless you overcome that, you can't employ. Are you WFP?
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Interesting post.
What I don't understand is how you employ someone on the books 5 days a week in this industry when you can't work 5 days a week.
Most of the time 4 full days Monday to Saturday is best you can manage.
Understand people on here do employ just interested how they manage with lost time due to bad weather; bad enough cost yourself money let alone paying someone else.
Lee
Lee i've personally had one of the the worst winters i've ever had. Second only to the winter of 2010 when we had -15 temps for over a month. It seems to me that in January, we had a personalised storm for every week, its was either Bernie, Bertha or some other Americanism. It was also like this just before Christmas if you remember ? I pre notify my work, most of it but not all. I just had no incentive to let anyone know i'd be round tomorrow because the news weather forcast had just told me there would be 50mph gales all day and night. So i never bothered. I just resigned myself to the fact i was having a day off. Of course i don't need the money. I don't mean that in a smug way, of course i'm not a millionaire and i need my wages as much as the next man. But i do put some aside for a rainy day. And i didn't fancy going out cleaning in a storm.............So i'm behind.
Now contrast this with my mate, he's my best mate. He's the same as me, only difference is he has an employee (and obviously a lot more work!!) . He didn't want to go out either, but !!!! He has an employee, and his employee wants to go to work and have his wage at the end of the week. You know how many days he lost due to weather this winter ? Not more than two. Hard to believe eh ? When i spoke to him on the fone and i was at home due to the bad weather, he was in his van talking to me and his employee was out working because he wanted his wage. When he told his employee it was getting a bit bad, his employee said...........no its fine, i'm ok i'll keep going. And they did.
The moral of the story is that when you work for yourself like me, you can suit yourself. When you have an employee, you also have a certain responsability to them..i.e give them a full time job like they wanted. Ultimatlely i've had loads of time off in January, he's never missed a beat. Mainly down to the fact he has an employee...................go figure.
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This is to help people.
If you don't like the fact that people want to do better then you, then don't read it.
Originally posted at: http://purewash.blogspot.co.uk/
The cost of employing.
There are many people out there getting incorrect information when it comes to the true cost of employing and its putting them off.
On some forums, I've seen some extremes that you need to earn x5 the employees wage to be able to cover the cover the cost.
This is rubbish.
What I intend with this post to reassure want-to-be employers that employing your first member of staff isn't as costly or hard as they think.
Everything in this post is from my experience of employing.
Anyone in any field can use this post to work out their employment costs.
I will be writing a second part of this post for the window / gutter cleaning industry next week.
So, what costs do we need to consider?
Wages
This is obvious. As I write this the current national minimum wage (2015-2016) is: £6.70 for anyone aged 21 and over.
For this example we will pay our new member of staff £7.00 per hour.
£7.00 x 40 working hours per week = £280.00
Employers national insurance
Currently, this is rated at 13.8% for employees over 21. The first £156.00 of wages per person per week isn't subject to this rate.
£280 - £156.00 = £124.00 (£124.00 is now subject to the 13.8%)
£124.00 + 13.8% = £141.11 - £124.00 = £17.11
Total cost per week: £17.11
Pensions
I have no experience with this yet, as my company doesn't need to set anything up until 2017. (this was written in early 2016)
For more information please visit: https://www.gov.uk/workplace-pensions/about-workplace-pensions
Payroll
I don't see the point in doing this yourselves to save a few quid.
For me, my accountant charged me £37.00 a month for my books and an extra £7.00 per month for each employee.
I highly recommend having an accountant when your employing as it can save time that money can't buy back.
£37.00 + £7.00 = £44.00 ÷ 4 = £11.00
Holiday pay
Each employee is owed 28 days holiday a year total.
Using the same example of £7.00 per hour for our new employee = £56.00 per day x 28 days = £1568.00 ÷ 52 weeks = £30.15
So you need to earn £30.15 per week to pay for your employees holidays. Not as bad as you thought?
Insurance
Employers liability insurance cost is different in each field.
My public liability covers everything that is worked on. Not all policy's cover this, so make sure you read the small print.
My current employers and public liability is £45.75 per month.
£45.75 ÷ 4 = £11.43 per week.
The basic cost of an employee per week.
Wages: £280.00
Employers national insurance: £17.11
Accountant and payroll: £11.00
Holiday pay: £30.15
Public and employers liability: £11.43
Total: £349.69
÷ 5 days
= £69.93 per day.
Easy peasy right?
Next is to work out the other running costs of your industry. I will be writing next week about the extra running cost in the window / general cleaning industry.
Also, I will be making an in-depth video of this post soon, so please subscribe to my YouTube channel so you don't miss it.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpcOZbe7ZEm8WNRiUFi3opQ
While this post is informative James, in terms of giving a basic overview of employing costs, unfortunately it's only the tip of the iceberg in reality (although I know you are going to do a part 2 :-) ).
The problem is if you pay anything like a half decent wage the profit margins are squeezed beyond belief....
If you factor in other costs such as the extra equipment, second van expenses (loan to buy, MOT, servicing, fuel, tax etc), then ofcourse absorbing the VAT if you hit that (unless you can pass some on to the customers), add the profit left to your own wages if you're out working will probably mean your then paying higher rate tax on it too! Profit margin left is shocking!
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Clean clear . I think the moral of the story is don't pre notify your customers . You would have definately worked a lot more if not having to do that .
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Interesting post.
What I don't understand is how you employ someone on the books 5 days a week in this industry when you can't work 5 days a week.
Most of the time 4 full days Monday to Saturday is best you can manage.
Understand people on here do employ just interested how they manage with lost time due to bad weather; bad enough cost yourself money let alone paying someone else.
Lee
Lee i've personally had one of the the worst winters i've ever had. Second only to the winter of 2010 when we had -15 temps for over a month. It seems to me that in January, we had a personalised storm for every week, its was either Bernie, Bertha or some other Americanism. It was also like this just before Christmas if you remember ? I pre notify my work, most of it but not all. I just had no incentive to let anyone know i'd be round tomorrow because the news weather forcast had just told me there would be 50mph gales all day and night. So i never bothered. I just resigned myself to the fact i was having a day off. Of course i don't need the money. I don't mean that in a smug way, of course i'm not a millionaire and i need my wages as much as the next man. But i do put some aside for a rainy day. And i didn't fancy going out cleaning in a storm.............So i'm behind.
Now contrast this with my mate, he's my best mate. He's the same as me, only difference is he has an employee (and obviously a lot more work!!) . He didn't want to go out either, but !!!! He has an employee, and his employee wants to go to work and have his wage at the end of the week. You know how many days he lost due to weather this winter ? Not more than two. Hard to believe eh ? When i spoke to him on the fone and i was at home due to the bad weather, he was in his van talking to me and his employee was out working because he wanted his wage. When he told his employee it was getting a bit bad, his employee said...........no its fine, i'm ok i'll keep going. And they did.
The moral of the story is that when you work for yourself like me, you can suit yourself. When you have an employee, you also have a certain responsability to them..i.e give them a full time job like they wanted. Ultimatlely i've had loads of time off in January, he's never missed a beat. Mainly down to the fact he has an employee...................go figure.
i used to be like you.sacking work off the next day if the weather was forecast bad(most of the time its not as bad as forecast),finishing early at the first sign of rain etc.i also earned considerably less money over the course of the year!what i coincidence eh? ;D
IME it very rarely rains full on all day with strong wind.once in a blue moon.i only need to work 6 hours "on the glass" a day 5 days a week to keep up with my schedule.i also dont pre notify MOST customers.i do have to for some for access reasons but its only a small percentage.probably less than 10%.
ive even shocked myself in what weather i can work in.the other week i did 6 hours in pouring rain(posh houses too!)it was fairly windy at times and most customers paid me there and then and never even mentioned the weather.i also got a few brews.these were wealthy retired folk mostly so they were at home.
i earned £240 that day and once home and dry i had a sense of satisfaction that id kept on schedule.
when you lose a day to weather ITS LOST FOREVER!you can never catch up as it had a knock on effect on the rest of your work.if you regularly take days off due to bad weather over the course of a year it could mount up to a months income.
dont forget we all take time off during the year (illness,van/equipment problems,holidays etc)and thats normal for all of us but most of the time weather shouldnt have much of an effect.maybe 5 days at most lost.
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Iv lost a pile of work because of the winter storms and over this last three weeks Iv pulled most of it back plus that's with 2 days off with man flu last week, yes if your on a 40 hour week 46 weeks of the year then its going to be a hard struggle to pull it back but
would you want to be in that situation in this game, I certainly wouldn't.
I would love to see Dazmond cleaning in storms with 60 mile an hour gusts, or better still get it on video. ;D
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I found the original post a good read.
when you lose a day to weather ITS LOST FOREVER!you can never catch up as it had a knock on effect on the rest of your work.if you regularly take days off due to bad weather over the course of a year it could mount up to a months income.
Not the case of you don't overcrowd your work schedule. Remember Daz, work smarter not harder :D
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Exactly. It's not quite as black and white as its gone forever. Not necessarily.
Monday might be written off because unexpectantly it chucks it down. You sit in your van all day waiting for it to pass. It doesn't. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday you work til 5.00 instead of 4.00. By the end of the week you're not behind, you've earnt a full weeks wage and all houses are done to schedule.
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Interesting post.
What I don't understand is how you employ someone on the books 5 days a week in this industry when you can't work 5 days a week.
Most of the time 4 full days Monday to Saturday is best you can manage.
Understand people on here do employ just interested how they manage with lost time due to bad weather; bad enough cost yourself money let alone paying someone else.
Lee
Lee i've personally had one of the the worst winters i've ever had.
<snip>
The moral of the story is that when you work for yourself like me, you can suit yourself. When you have an employee, you also have a certain responsability to them..i.e give them a full time job like they wanted. Ultimatlely i've had loads of time off in January, he's never missed a beat. Mainly down to the fact he has an employee...................go figure.
i used to be like you.sacking work off the next day if the weather was forecast bad(most of the time its not as bad as forecast),finishing early at the first sign of rain etc.i also earned considerably less money over the course of the year!what i coincidence eh? ;D
IME it very rarely rains full on all day with strong wind.once in a blue moon.i only need to work 6 hours "on the glass" a day 5 days a week to keep up with my schedule.i also dont pre notify MOST customers.i do have to for some for access reasons but its only a small percentage.probably less than 10%.
ive even shocked myself in what weather i can work in.the other week i did 6 hours in pouring rain(posh houses too!)it was fairly windy at times and most customers paid me there and then and never even mentioned the weather.i also got a few brews.these were wealthy retired folk mostly so they were at home.
i earned £240 that day and once home and dry i had a sense of satisfaction that id kept on schedule.
Daz, i know all that. I'm not changing the way i operate at all. I'd sooner go boil my head than get shocked by just how bad weather i can work in.
I was just thinking out loud really as James measures the costs of employing and i was thinking of the guy who asked the other day about ...what do you do with employees, give them shorter hours in the winter ? As it turns out having an employee can be a driving force to get out and stay out everyday.
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Interesting post.
What I don't understand is how you employ someone on the books 5 days a week in this industry when you can't work 5 days a week.
Most of the time 4 full days Monday to Saturday is best you can manage.
Understand people on here do employ just interested how they manage with lost time due to bad weather; bad enough cost yourself money let alone paying someone else.
Lee
Lee i've personally had one of the the worst winters i've ever had. Second only to the winter of 2010 when we had -15 temps for over a month. It seems to me that in January, we had a personalised storm for every week, its was either Bernie, Bertha or some other Americanism. It was also like this just before Christmas if you remember ? I pre notify my work, most of it but not all. I just had no incentive to let anyone know i'd be round tomorrow because the news weather forcast had just told me there would be 50mph gales all day and night. So i never bothered. I just resigned myself to the fact i was having a day off. Of course i don't need the money. I don't mean that in a smug way, of course i'm not a millionaire and i need my wages as much as the next man. But i do put some aside for a rainy day. And i didn't fancy going out cleaning in a storm.............So i'm behind.
Now contrast this with my mate, he's my best mate. He's the same as me, only difference is he has an employee (and obviously a lot more work!!) . He didn't want to go out either, but !!!! He has an employee, and his employee wants to go to work and have his wage at the end of the week. You know how many days he lost due to weather this winter ? Not more than two. Hard to believe eh ? When i spoke to him on the fone and i was at home due to the bad weather, he was in his van talking to me and his employee was out working because he wanted his wage. When he told his employee it was getting a bit bad, his employee said...........no its fine, i'm ok i'll keep going. And they did.
The moral of the story is that when you work for yourself like me, you can suit yourself. When you have an employee, you also have a certain responsability to them..i.e give them a full time job like they wanted. Ultimatlely i've had loads of time off in January, he's never missed a beat. Mainly down to the fact he has an employee...................go figure.
i used to be like you.sacking work off the next day if the weather was forecast bad(most of the time its not as bad as forecast),finishing early at the first sign of rain etc.i also earned considerably less money over the course of the year!what i coincidence eh? ;D
IME it very rarely rains full on all day with strong wind.once in a blue moon.i only need to work 6 hours "on the glass" a day 5 days a week to keep up with my schedule.i also dont pre notify MOST customers.i do have to for some for access reasons but its only a small percentage.probably less than 10%.
ive even shocked myself in what weather i can work in.the other week i did 6 hours in pouring rain(posh houses too!)it was fairly windy at times and most customers paid me there and then and never even mentioned the weather.i also got a few brews.these were wealthy retired folk mostly so they were at home.
i earned £240 that day and once home and dry i had a sense of satisfaction that id kept on schedule.
when you lose a day to weather ITS LOST FOREVER!you can never catch up as it had a knock on effect on the rest of your work.if you regularly take days off due to bad weather over the course of a year it could mount up to a months income.
dont forget we all take time off during the year (illness,van/equipment problems,holidays etc)and thats normal for all of us but most of the time weather shouldnt have much of an effect.maybe 5 days at most lost.
Spot on topic above.....when I use to employ 5 days a week, we would be out 5 days a week regardless of weather. Now I work alone I still work 5 days a week regardless of weather or i'll take 5 days a week off even in gorgeous weather, just depends if I'm too busy playing catch up and other factors. When an employee is dependant on you for wages you run it more efficiently as a business and don't judge worry about customers whinging about weather.
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8 weekly, yes I'm waterfed pole.
I do get comments off my customers quite alot this time of year about "surprised to see you on a day like this" so I must be fairly brave :)
Just not happy working out in pouring rain, surely that must make you ill?
Understand all the gortex clothing bit.
But if I had to go out everday in all weathers I think I'd be very unhappy and might even give up on being a window cleaner.
I was miserable losing time to bad weather, obviously because of lost income.
Finally put my prices up last autum and a lot less worried about lost time off work.
I don't throw the towel in straight away because of a bad weather forecast.
Even if I only go out for 2-3 hours I do.
But I think looking to go out 5 days a week every week is unrealistic.
I'm in the 4 days a week camp. (mon-sat).
But I see what Clean care says and yourself 8 weekly, having an employee makes you more focused, you find away round the pitfalls.
Unfortunately it took me along time to realise that when your self employed, it's not how many days you can work
but how much you can make in the days that you do.
Lee
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i used to be like you.sacking work off the next day if the weather was forecast bad(most of the time its not as bad as forecast),finishing early at the first sign of rain etc.i also earned considerably less money over the course of the year!what i coincidence eh? ;D
ive even shocked myself in what weather i can work in.
And i used to be like you, thats why i don't have to go out and see how much wet i can work in. Mind you, i don't have a rent to pay, that helps. You've got it backwards Daz . You don't up your game as you get older . You're in your 40's ? Only another 20 years to go !!! ;D
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If your on your own or employing someone you should be earning more than enough on working days in better weather to not have to pannick when it clouds over,2 of you out working with good work should be earning loads 2 in a van. If your on your own and you have the right work having the odd day off due to weather or a rest should never ever be a problem I would say seriously look at your work and what your earning if you disagree.
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Clean clear . I think the moral of the story is don't pre notify your customers . You would have definately worked a lot more if not having to do that .
Nothing to do with pre notifying. I see the pro's and cons of pre notifying. I can still turn up for work without notifying. It just makes it easy for me to get paid, leave money out for me, unlock gates etc.. Although i do use my A frame and fence/gate hop. Working in an area where people do have genuine security concerns about people just turning up unannounced at their properties i've found it a clincher for me for getting work. I'm not chosen for my good looks ;D
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If your on your own or employing someone you should be earning more than enough on working days in better weather to not have to pannick when it clouds over,2 of you out working with good work should be earning loads 2 in a van. If your on your own and you have the right work having the odd day off due to weather or a rest should never ever be a problem I would say seriously look at your work and what your earning if you disagree.
You'll never hear me complaining about not working ;D I work on my own . I'm not bothered if i have a week off . But your statement above is incorrect, you say......
2 of you out working with good work should be earning loads 2 in a van
The problem with that is that unless they are equal partners, i'll assume one is an employee. He won't be earning loads, only one of them will. The employee will be panicking at having time off. Presumably unpaid ?
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Take it from me 2 of you in 1 van will be earning lots of money.
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Take it from me 2 of you in 1 van will be earning lots of money.
I don't need to take it from you, i've done it. How will the employee earn when he's not working , thats what we're trying to figure out ?
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If he can't work sell his bottom.
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Take it from me 2 of you in 1 van will be earning lots of money.
If two men in a van earn £550, two men in two vans will earn £700.
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Take it from me 2 of you in 1 van will be earning lots of money.
If two men in a van earn £550, two men in two vans will earn £700.
You raise an interesting point there 8weekly. If you're going to employ another man do you get him to help you or set him free with another van ? Also even in your example above, i'd assume you're talking about residential work and not huge commercial work where the workers are on site for hours as opposed to the few minutes it takes to do a house.
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Take it from me 2 of you in 1 van will be earning lots of money.
If two men in a van earn £550, two men in two vans will earn £700.
You raise an interesting point there 8weekly. If you're going to employ another man do you get him to help you or set him free with another van ? Also even in your example above, i'd assume you're talking about residential work and not huge commercial work where the workers are on site for hours as opposed to the few minutes it takes to do a house.
Yes, residential. I don'r really have experience of large commercial work, but I'd imagine it could be different with two men on one job all day.
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commercial work ok two people working together, domestics pointless both being on same house, same street in opposite directions more beneficial
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Take it from me 2 of you in 1 van will be earning lots of money.
Not as much two men, each in their own van.
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Indeed your right.
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This is what makes me laugh when amounts of money are discussed I'm waiting for some to come on here and say 3-350 each van it's not possible blimey you lot on here are a lot of dreamers lol.
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This is what makes me laugh when amounts of money are discussed I'm waiting for some to come on here and say 3-350 each van it's not possible blimey you lot on here are a lot of dreamers lol.
Why is it not possible?
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Of course it is that's the joke of it when you say a 2 man team in a van each is doing £600 minimum between them the old knockers soon appear and say eee by gum you lot are living in lala land,only easy if you have the right work though saying that.
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I am confused. Are you saying that two men working together can turn out £600 worth of work between them?
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I am confused. Are you saying that two men working together can turn out £600 worth of work between them?
most wont unless your work is london prices or commercial.most will turnover £300-£400 a day (2 man team) on domestic i reckon.
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I am confused. Are you saying that two men working together can turn out £600 worth of work between them?
most wont unless your work is london prices or commercial.most will turnover £300-£400 a day (2 man team) on domestic i reckon.
I'm nowhere near London or Surrey and it's more than possible.....
Darran
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I am confused. Are you saying that two men working together can turn out £600 worth of work between them?
most wont unless your work is london prices or commercial.most will turnover £300-£400 a day (2 man team) on domestic i reckon.
I'm nowhere near London or Surrey and it's more than possible.....
Darran
He didn't say it was impossible he said most wont just as most would tend to agree with him.
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So if I ever employed an apprentice, then say I would pay there hourly rate x 7 hours a day x 5 days a week.
But then only expect them to be working 4 days a week which would include Saturday if needed.
(maybe you don't tell employee that 4 days is all that's needed, so if they are decent they won't mind putting in extra day when needed).
Employee doesn't get fed up not being able to work and not getting paid, or alternatively standing in pouring rain trying to earn their wages.
Some weeks as the employer I would earn more than others but surely there would be an average.
Just thinking out loud.
Is what I said rubbish?
Would that work doing everything above board and legal?
I would not want to be paying someone cash in hand using them a few days a week, as id imagine I would only attract the dole brigade.
Wouldn't want someone of that mentality.
1) breaking the law.
2) can't see how you would find someone in that mind set with decent morals.
3) customers would not find that professional
Ps.
Some of you on here won't employ the younger ones 16;18 year olds are they all that bad?
Do you have to confiscate all their toys at the start of the day and return at the end (mobile phone).
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There are a couple of employers in my area and they both seem to work on flexible hours, you will see them out on the
odd Saturday and working late in the evenings to make up for any weather shortfalls.
I'm sure this arrangement wouldn't suit everybody due to family commitments and so on but they do seem to get guys happy
enough to work this way and have no problem replacing guys for which it no longer suits.
That's why I laugh at guys on here who say you cant employ unless your prepared to work in all weathers.
One employs around 20 guys and the other has around 10.
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I had 1 lad he lasted a week or so he could not put his phone down from 7-30 till going home time,everytime we finished a house he was straight on his phone. You obviously couldn't confiscate it that would cause bad feeling but it would need to outlined at the start that when he's working the phone stays in the van or on silent in his pocket,unless of course he has a wife or girlfriend that texts him in between her watching Jeremy Kyle. Another mistake I made was finishing early to many days with another employee in the end he took it upon himself to arrange certain appointments etc 2 hours or so before going home time,some people take kindness as a weakness I'm afraid,it never works trying to be there m8 as soon as that boss employee relationship has gone you've had it.
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Your overthinking it, it's not that complicated,
If you are going to do paye then set it at 30 hrs ( they can work more if needed ) and you work flexi time set over 6 days
We don't work in bad weather, and have never been more than 2 days behind - always upto date, but we run strict scheduled rounds.
If your concerned take someone on as self employed they give you an invoice for hours worked.
I'd only take on people under 25 if most work was commercial, if you want them to drive then insurance is extremely expensive, if not impossible a good worker is also one with commitments - family, mortgage, rent etc... :)
Darran
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Agree with that only take on someone with bills so they need you as much as you do them.
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I am confused. Are you saying that two men working together can turn out £600 worth of work between them?
most wont unless your work is london prices or commercial.most will turnover £300-£400 a day (2 man team) on domestic i reckon.
I'm nowhere near London or Surrey and it's more than possible.....
Darran
And Daz is in the Surrey of the north.
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No, Slurry of the North.
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Darran.
I maybe wrong but I thought the self employed invoicing thing you mentioned not strictly legal as self employed the guy working for you is only allowed to do 16 hours for you.
This is to stop employers dodging income tax.
But as said maybe talking twaddle.
Darran how long was you on your own before employing?
Unfortunately my water purification system is at my parents no off street parking so I load on barrels with sack trolley.
I do use hose reel for work.
So wouldn't consider employing til I moved to a property where I could run a proper van mount system.
Does suit me on my jack jones as my daughter is 10 and do a bit of the school run bit.
As she gets older and I'm not to be seen with then I can see me getting some help.
Thanks Lee.
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I'm east not north - carrot cruncher territory !!
Lee - I think I did 18 months solo, then had the father in law on self employed basis, that nearly ended the company, (never work with family !!)
Then employed and never looked back from then, it's not easy or always smooth sailing but I can now see the kids off to school or pick them up without the company grinding to a halt.
Yes I still do long days, normally on specialt, or high price work
Darran
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then had the father in law on self employed basis, that nearly ended the company, (never work with family !!)
;D ;D
Funny enough I was thinking of having my dad work with me the odd day at one point.
But my Mrs pointed out that wouldn't be a good idea as did my mum ;D
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Worked with my old dad for quiet a few years I'm so glad I did it I've got some really good memories from it but it didn't work really we were always arguing,the amount of days I just went home at 10 o'clock lol. Funny when you look back though I wouldn't change a thing working with him,I started with scrim then the squidge and started on the pole about 2 years after he packed in,good old days.
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No indeed he did £50 houses for £18 that's why it didn't work,always arguing.
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I bet he thought cleaning conservatory roofs for free wasn't such a good idea when you suggested it?
Disagree, I've got customers queuing up for free work so I must be doing something right! ;D
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I bet he thought cleaning conservatory roofs for free wasn't such a good idea when you suggested it?
Disagree, I've got customers queuing up for free work so I must be doing something right! ;D
Doh! ;D
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How's that employee of yours 8 weekly are you still giving him counselling lol.