Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: CleanClear on February 03, 2016, 09:54:17 pm
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Probably like many i've been intrigued by the many posts here about adding stuff to your water. Yeah i'm talking about Vision, but also as others have said GG3/4 . And i've fancied it and never before got around to trying it.
Before i go on, like many of us here when i first got into WFP and pure water we where "sold" on the idea pure water was a great cleaner, used on micro chips and in the aviation industy etc... It would leech all the deposits it came into contact with etc. Infact it was so great a cleaner you had to really protect your van floor or the acidic nature of pure water would eat it away!! Thats never stopped us squirting it all over commercial premises with aluminium window frames and metal cladding.........but leave that for another day ;)
When i think back, the main ones promoting this type of "theory" where the instigators of the WFP system. So its no suprise they sing its praises. In actual fact when you read though this forum you will see plenty asking for "that little bit extra", or really a lot more extra to clean really dirty stuff and thats where Virosol, UBIK, and that Autosmart product i use (can't think of its name right now), oh yeah G101 come into their own.
Anyway i squirted a bit of that B&Q window cleaner in my tank today, totally reckless. I think its called H&G window cleaner. Seems its produced the same results they all say about the other stuff. Foaming and bubbles, a faint sort of smell, a perception its actually cleaning. Done my customers today, and done my own and neighbours. All seems fine. MIght be in my own head but seemed smoother and gluided better even on leaded windows. Doing some tests tomorrow on some problem windows i have so keep you posted. So far i'm keen on the idea, i've never really been sold on pure water alone for cleaning.
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Nice post, and you raise some interesting observations, but I fear the thread will be doomed to become another slanging match...☹
Darran
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Ultrapure water and the water used for wfp window cleaning is totaly different https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrapure_water
Simply by adding heat to cold ro/di purified water I've found really helps but still sometimes a chem boost is also required depending what I'm cleaning.
As the saying goes "you would not wash filthy baked on/ greasy dishes in just cold water now would you unless your a muppet" ;D
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hot pure water and vision works well for me and a good brush with a high flow.use an xtreme pole as well and you have a very quick and effective window cleaning tool! :)
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As the saying goes "you would not wash filthy baked on/ greasy dishes in just cold water now would you unless your a muppet" ;D
Smurf, i agree with this statement. However taken in a window cleaning context it doesn't make sense, it just doesn't compute. I'll tell you why..........
Assuming you have a new clean window, then the only dirt that is accumulating on it is airborne dirt. Of course i'll leave out the example of egg or some other fouling for now as i assume we are just talking about generally keeping a window clean.
Grease does not fly though the air. Just carbon, pollen, dust etc..that all comes off not just due to pure water, but due to you scrubbing it off and allowing it to flow down in your water.
Hot or warm water does have its uses, i.e softening a bird deposit quicker than a cold water soak. But thats not what i'm generally talking about.
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Ultrapure water this sort of says it all, what we use is filtered water nothing else and the only reason its filtered is so that
it doesn't leave the removed solids on the glass.
It doesn't clean any better or do anything that unfiltered water couldn't do.
Heres a question CleanClear, How do filter tap water at 300ppm without boiling it or using any filtering equipment ?
Answer, pour a litre of it into a 600litre tank of 000ppm pure.
You see the dissolved solids in the water are still there but have been diluted to level where they no longer cause a problem.
The same can be said about the solution you added to your water, its still there but its now diluted to a level where its not going to make any difference to the cleaning power.
When you mix your HG window cleaner at the correct levels to water what you actually do is turn the water into a cleaning
solution, that's what a concentrate is designed to do.
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I think a lot of them pure water urban myths (acid water and so on) are still believed by some that's why they spend a small fortune trying to protect their van floors.
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Me being green when changing over to the magic of purified water one of my first jobs was a house next to a busy road that had not been cleaned for years. No problem I thought... yeah right. ::)roll
Anyway after one complaint and two visits try to get them clean with my magic water the owner done them themselves in the end the old school way by ladders, mop & squeege ;D
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Ultrapure water this sort of says it all, what we use is filtered water nothing else and the only reason its filtered is so that
it doesn't leave the removed solids on the glass.
It doesn't clean any better or do anything that unfiltered water couldn't do.
Heres a question CleanClear, How do filter tap water at 300ppm without boiling it or using any filtering equipment ?
Answer, pour a litre of it into a 600litre tank of 000ppm pure.
You see the dissolved solids in the water are still there but have been diluted to level where they no longer cause a problem.
The same can be said about the solution you added to your water, its still there but its now diluted to a level where its not going to make any difference to the cleaning power.
When you mix your HG window cleaner at the correct levels to water what you actually do is turn the water into a cleaning
solution, that's what a concentrate is designed to do.
Hi Sean, i'm a little confused understanding your post (its probably just me). I agree tossing a litre of unpurified water into a tank of pure will make little to no difference. If i've got you right then you say tossing a few milliliters of cleaning solution in a large tank like 400/600 litres will make no difference to its cleaning ability ? I'd of thought the same. I'm also suprised at how it bubbles and froths i wouldn't expect it to do that either. I done no measuring at all, i just squirted a squirt ;D Like what you'd do for your dishes in a 350 litre tank. Wether it cleans any better i've no idea. But what is clear is that it cleans at least the same and seems smoother.
If it can produce so many bubbles at such a low concentration, what other effects can it bring that you might not see straight way? Like the surfactant effect whereby the water retreats and "dries out" away from edges and seals ? Who knows? Thats what i'm gonna try this week.
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Probably like many i've been intrigued by the many posts here about adding stuff to your water. Yeah i'm talking about Vision, but also as others have said GG3/4 . And i've fancied it and never before got around to trying it.
Before i go on, like many of us here when i first got into WFP and pure water we where "sold" on the idea pure water was a great cleaner, used on micro chips and in the aviation industy etc... It would leech all the deposits it came into contact with etc. Infact it was so great a cleaner you had to really protect your van floor or the acidic nature of pure water would eat it away!! Thats never stopped us squirting it all over commercial premises with aluminium window frames and metal cladding.........but leave that for another day ;)
When i think back, the main ones promoting this type of "theory" where the instigators of the WFP system. So its no suprise they sing its praises. In actual fact when you read though this forum you will see plenty asking for "that little bit extra", or really a lot more extra to clean really dirty stuff and thats where Virosol, UBIK, and that Autosmart product i use (can't think of its name right now), oh yeah G101 come into their own.
Anyway i squirted a bit of that B&Q window cleaner in my tank today, totally reckless. I think its called H&G window cleaner. Seems its produced the same results they all say about the other stuff. Foaming and bubbles, a faint sort of smell, a perception its actually cleaning. Done my customers today, and done my own and neighbours. All seems fine. MIght be in my own head but seemed smoother and gluided better even on leaded windows. Doing some tests tomorrow on some problem windows i have so keep you posted. So far i'm keen on the idea, i've never really been sold on pure water alone for cleaning.
Yes a great post CleanClear, there are different factors that can cause for example window seals to wear and become frayed. Age,Temperature,water,condensation, can contribute to the deterioration of window seals, (using purified water on an ongoing basis can speed up the deterioration of window seals.)
Another factor which dose not help is the use of harsh and aggressive cleaning chemicals which over time cause them to crack and become more frayed. When this happens overtime it leads to rubber residues leeching out from the seals when they are being cleaned which can lead to lousy results.
I am not trying to put the frighteners on here but would like to share from many years experience that to err on the side of caution if you need to use cleaning chemicals for first cleans or deep cleans its safer to use cleaning chemicals which are non-caustic and non-corrosive, i have said it many times on this forum that there are plenty of janitorial suppliers in the UK who can guide on the use of safe and effective cleaning chemicals. Tadgh
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Does adding Vision to your water mean it stops treating the floor of your van like it's sulphuric acid?
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Probably like many i've been intrigued by the many posts here about adding stuff to your water. Yeah i'm talking about Vision, but also as others have said GG3/4 . And i've fancied it and never before got around to trying it.
Before i go on, like many of us here when i first got into WFP and pure water we where "sold" on the idea pure water was a great cleaner, used on micro chips and in the aviation industy etc... It would leech all the deposits it came into contact with etc. Infact it was so great a cleaner you had to really protect your van floor or the acidic nature of pure water would eat it away!! Thats never stopped us squirting it all over commercial premises with aluminium window frames and metal cladding.........but leave that for another day ;)
When i think back, the main ones promoting this type of "theory" where the instigators of the WFP system. So its no suprise they sing its praises. In actual fact when you read though this forum you will see plenty asking for "that little bit extra", or really a lot more extra to clean really dirty stuff and thats where Virosol, UBIK, and that Autosmart product i use (can't think of its name right now), oh yeah G101 come into their own.
Anyway i squirted a bit of that B&Q window cleaner in my tank today, totally reckless. I think its called H&G window cleaner. Seems its produced the same results they all say about the other stuff. Foaming and bubbles, a faint sort of smell, a perception its actually cleaning. Done my customers today, and done my own and neighbours. All seems fine. MIght be in my own head but seemed smoother and gluided better even on leaded windows. Doing some tests tomorrow on some problem windows i have so keep you posted. So far i'm keen on the idea, i've never really been sold on pure water alone for cleaning.
Yes a great post CleanClear, there are different factors that can cause window seals to wear and become frayed. Age,Temperature,water,condensation, can contribute to the deterioration of window seals, (using purified water on an ongoing basis can speed up the deterioration of window seals.)
Another factor which dose not help is the use of harsh and aggressive cleaning chemicals which over time cause them to crack and become more frayed. When this happens overtime it leads to rubber residues leeching out from the seals when they are being cleaned which can lead to lousy results.
I am not trying to put the frighteners on here but would like to share from many years experience that to err on the side of caution if you need to use cleaning chemicals for first cleans or deep cleans it safer to use cleaning chemicals which are non-caustic and non-corrosive, i have said it plenty of times on this forum that there are many janitorial suppliers in the UK who can guide on the use of safe and effective cleaning chemicals. Tadgh
Hi Tadgh, i'm gonna disagree and agree !! ;D I disagree that cleaning windows with purified water will deteriorate seals any quicker than cleaning with ordinary water. That point has been done to death over the years here, and it was sealed (pardon the pun ) with manufacturers saying that WFP is not detrimental in any way. There's been numerous links posted here (i may go try find one) from manufacturers associations to say so.
As regards chems, yes i'd agree they come at a cost (to what you're working on ). I assume you're relating to Virosol, Ubik, G101 and not the few milliliters of HG i put in the water ?
To go further though, i'm into my 6th/7th year using WFP . What i'm now seeing, and i'm sure i never seen it before is algae and moss growth. I see it inbetween the seal and trim, the trim and the actal frame. This is on regular monthly work i done for years, i scrub it like new and it looks great. I return and its all back again. I attribute this to the fact there is no chems residing in the water/moisture to inhibit growth. Clean water and airborne pollutants seems to be a factor in algae/moss growth ? If they where not we'd never get moss on a roof.
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Does adding Vision to your water mean it stops treating the floor of your van like it's sulphuric acid?
Just think "foam Party , night club, slippy when wet" and you'll not be far off the mark ;D
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So say purified ro/di water is no more harmful to a van floor than normal tap water.
However the likes of hypo will eat away metal so that is why yanks spend a fortune on the beds of their softwashing truck or use trailers instead ;D
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So say purified ro/di water is no more harmful to a van floor than normal tap water.
However the likes of hypo will eat away metal so that is why yanks spend a fortune on the beds of their softwashing truck or use trailers instead ;D
Smurf, never use yanks as a yardstick for intelligence. ;D Even us thick scousers keep it in tubs instead of spreading it about the van floor.
And aside from that you do know there are two types of hypo right ? The volatile stuff (i can't recollect the correct word) that evaporates after time, and has to be stored in dark containers away from air and light and the non volatile stuff that just is what it is. Its the volatile stuff that goes in swimming pools for shock treatment, and thats the one we use ;D
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Probably like many i've been intrigued by the many posts here about adding stuff to your water. Yeah i'm talking about Vision, but also as others have said GG3/4 . And i've fancied it and never before got around to trying it.
Before i go on, like many of us here when i first got into WFP and pure water we where "sold" on the idea pure water was a great cleaner, used on micro chips and in the aviation industy etc... It would leech all the deposits it came into contact with etc. Infact it was so great a cleaner you had to really protect your van floor or the acidic nature of pure water would eat it away!! Thats never stopped us squirting it all over commercial premises with aluminium window frames and metal cladding.........but leave that for another day ;)
When i think back, the main ones promoting this type of "theory" where the instigators of the WFP system. So its no suprise they sing its praises. In actual fact when you read though this forum you will see plenty asking for "that little bit extra", or really a lot more extra to clean really dirty stuff and thats where Virosol, UBIK, and that Autosmart product i use (can't think of its name right now), oh yeah G101 come into their own.
Anyway i squirted a bit of that B&Q window cleaner in my tank today, totally reckless. I think its called H&G window cleaner. Seems its produced the same results they all say about the other stuff. Foaming and bubbles, a faint sort of smell, a perception its actually cleaning. Done my customers today, and done my own and neighbours. All seems fine. MIght be in my own head but seemed smoother and gluided better even on leaded windows. Doing some tests tomorrow on some problem windows i have so keep you posted. So far i'm keen on the idea, i've never really been sold on pure water alone for cleaning.
Yes a great post CleanClear, there are different factors that can cause window seals to wear and become frayed. Age,Temperature,water,condensation, can contribute to the deterioration of window seals, (using purified water on an ongoing basis can speed up the deterioration of window seals.)
Another factor which dose not help is the use of harsh and aggressive cleaning chemicals which over time cause them to crack and become more frayed. When this happens overtime it leads to rubber residues leeching out from the seals when they are being cleaned which can lead to lousy results.
I am not trying to put the frighteners on here but would like to share from many years experience that to err on the side of caution if you need to use cleaning chemicals for first cleans or deep cleans it safer to use cleaning chemicals which are non-caustic and non-corrosive, i have said it plenty of times on this forum that there are many janitorial suppliers in the UK who can guide on the use of safe and effective cleaning chemicals. Tadgh
Hi Tadgh, i'm gonna disagree and agree !! ;D I disagree that cleaning windows with purified water will deteriorate seals any quicker than cleaning with ordinary water. That point has been done to death over the years here, and it was sealed (pardon the pun ) with manufacturers saying that WFP is not detrimental in any way. There's been numerous links posted here (i may go try find one) from manufacturers associations to say so.
As regards chems, yes i'd agree they come at a cost (to what you're working on ). I assume you're relating to Virosol, Ubik, G101 and not the few milliliters of HG i put in the water ?
To go further though, i'm into my 6th/7th year using WFP . What i'm now seeing, and i'm sure i never seen it before is algae and moss growth. I see it inbetween the seal and trim, the trim and the actal frame. This is on regular monthly work i done for years, i scrub it like new and it looks great. I return and its all back again. I attribute this to the fact there is no chems residing in the water/moisture to inhibit growth. Clean water and airborne pollutants seems to be a factor in algae/moss growth ? If they where not we'd never get moss on a roof.
I have learned many years ago now not to trust the manufacturers of cleaning chemicals as i was caught up in their bullpoop for long enough, many people say DI water is so clean that it is hungry and aggressive, yes of course manufacturers will disagree with this but you gotta ask yourself who is telling the truth.
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I have learned many years ago now not to trust the manufacturers of cleaning chemicals as i was caught up in their bullpoop for long enough, many people say DI water is so clean that it is hungry and aggressive, yes of course manufacturers will disagree with this but you gotta ask yourself who is telling the truth.
Well i make my own DI water and i know it "aint all that ". No ones sold me HG window cleaner from B&Q, i'm just investigating !! ;D
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If you have ever tried washing yer filthy van with just wfp and di water you will know how crap it really is on its own ;D
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I have learned many years ago now not to trust the manufacturers of cleaning chemicals as i was caught up in their bullpoop for long enough, many people say DI water is so clean that it is hungry and aggressive, yes of course manufacturers will disagree with this but you gotta ask yourself who is telling the truth.
Well i make my own DI water and i know it "aint all that ". No ones sold me HG window cleaner from B&Q, i'm just investigating !! ;D
Yes i know where you are coming from, its the other 3 products you mentioned i would be more wary of.
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Sean you say a little drop of detergent diluted down wont make any difference . When I started trad 11 years ago used to give fairy liquid a good squirt in bucket suds all day . Now I put 1.6 ml of my favorite chem in 5 litres of water ( in a very hard water area ). Work out the dilution rate so a little can make a difference therefore a little in pure water does make work easier .
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using vision in my water defo improves the finish on windows.the proof is when the window is dry.yesterday i was cleaning a property next to one id cleaned the day before and the shine was really unbelievable!it adds extra satisfaction and pride in my work.customers happy,im happy and i get paid. :)
when scrubbing and rinsing it adds a "gloss" to the water and it feels so much better than just using pure water.add heat and the steam coming off my brush and it looks good.both to me and the customer. ;D
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why bother a custy will drop you for a cheaper quote no matter how clean you think it is ;D I know ive had it done to me only yesterday 3 bed semi frames mining window over conni not cleaned in years .along comes another window washer bingo phone call ive got some one cheaper I will no longer need your service .wtf I'm one of the cheaper windys round by far near me or so I thought.
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better off without customers like that most of mine are loyal you ask why bother if someone wants a window cleaner and there are 2 cleaners both clean to same level but one leaves windows extra shiney guess which one will get job
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better off without customers like that most of mine are loyal you ask why bother if someone wants a window cleaner and there are 2 cleaners both clean to same level but one leaves windows extra shiney guess which one will get job
They are only shinier in your own head mate, if not then it would be impossible for us to compete with a good traditional
cleaner as they are using the solutions in a more concentrated mix.
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Sorry to disagree Sean I do both trad and wfp you don't need as much chem in wfp as there are less impurities than in tap water
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why bother a custy will drop you for a cheaper quote no matter how clean you think it is ;D I know ive had it done to me only yesterday 3 bed semi frames mining window over conni not cleaned in years .along comes another window washer bingo phone call ive got some one cheaper I will no longer need your service .wtf I'm one of the cheaper windys round by far near me or so I thought.
this happens very rarely though mate.some of my customers ive had for over 20 years! ;D
i lose the odd one or two every year to cheaper window cleaners but it has zero effect on my earnings as i always pick up more jobs(usually at slightly higher prices too)so its a win win. ;)
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I often wonder how rinse aid works so well - we add it to tap water of 300tds in our house, at very small dilution rates, the glassware comes out spotless and shiny and it's obviously pretty safe as we all drink and eat off the utensils afterwards and pump the excess chemicals down the drain.
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Ultrapure water this sort of says it all, what we use is filtered water nothing else and the only reason its filtered is so that
it doesn't leave the removed solids on the glass.
It doesn't clean any better or do anything that unfiltered water couldn't do.
Heres a question CleanClear, How do filter tap water at 300ppm without boiling it or using any filtering equipment ?
Answer, pour a litre of it into a 600litre tank of 000ppm pure.
You see the dissolved solids in the water are still there but have been diluted to level where they no longer cause a problem.
The same can be said about the solution you added to your water, its still there but its now diluted to a level where its not going to make any difference to the cleaning power.
When you mix your HG window cleaner at the correct levels to water what you actually do is turn the water into a cleaning
solution, that's what a concentrate is designed to do.
Hi Sean, i'm a little confused understanding your post (its probably just me). I agree tossing a litre of unpurified water into a tank of pure will make little to no difference. If i've got you right then you say tossing a few milliliters of cleaning solution in a large tank like 400/600 litres will make no difference to its cleaning ability ? I'd of thought the same. I'm also suprised at how it bubbles and froths i wouldn't expect it to do that either. I done no measuring at all, i just squirted a squirt ;D Like what you'd do for your dishes in a 350 litre tank. Wether it cleans any better i've no idea. But what is clear is that it cleans at least the same and seems smoother.
If it can produce so many bubbles at such a low concentration, what other effects can it bring that you might not see straight way? Like the surfactant effect whereby the water retreats and "dries out" away from edges and seals ? Who knows? Thats what i'm gonna try this week.
The point is just to show how little of the stuff your actually putting in the water, the thing is it doesn't matter how many
bubbles you get it still only a cleaning solution in a very weak mix.
Take some out of your tank trad with it and see if you find any difference to it and water on its own.
Take GG4 for example, it doesn't even restore the shine on upvc in its recommended mix and that's with it leaving a slight
coating still on the frames.
You talk about glide, well if you want more glide then use an Xtreme brush you see that's the thing more glide means less grip
scrubbing power.
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You don't get it do you Sean? ;D
People are finding a difference.
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You don't get it do you Sean? ;D
People are finding a difference.
I do get it Dave I just cant figure out how its happening, I'm getting the same results and don't put anything in my water
so somebody must be putting it in without my knowing. ;D
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You don't get it do you Sean? ;D
People are finding a difference.
There are also people finding a difference when using parts per billion systems, it takes all sorts mate. ;)
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If pure water alone was that good a cleaning solvent (it isn't) then I'd plumb my ro directly into the household supply. That way we'd never need to buy another bottle of shampoo, bar of soap, bottles of shower gel or any cleaning products ever again.
It's just clean water - that's all it is.
A good example of how poor it is - clean your dirty van with pure - use your best brush, give it a good scrub then when it's dry see how much your super brush has missed - it's crap! I wonder why we wash cars with soaps and detergents? Why do we use soap for washing? Why do we use detergents for laundery?
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If pure water alone was that good a cleaning solvent (it isn't) then I'd plumb my ro directly into the household supply. That way we'd never need to buy another bottle of shampoo, bar of soap, bottles of shower gel or any cleaning products ever again.
It's just clean water - that's all it is.
A good example of how poor it is - clean your dirty van with pure - use your best brush, give it a good scrub then when it's dry see how much your super brush has missed - it's crap! I wonder why we wash cars with soaps and detergents? Why do we use soap for washing? Why do we use detergents for laundery?
Again your talking nonsense I clean my van regular with a brush and tap water and its cleans it to perfection, I also worked
with a guy back in my sheet metalwork days who only washed with water as he was allergic to most cleaning products and
a cleaner guy you never met.
We are all programmed to associate suds with better cleaning that's why a lot of the products you mention are actually more
soapy than they need to be, you just need to look at how they are advertised to see that.
The fact is there many people all around the planet who clean/ wash with nothing more than water and it more than does the job.
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By the way guys I wouldn't recommend some of the newer window cleaning brushes for your car or van the
Vikan or even the Brodex are what is needed for a decent job, in other words a tight bristled brush.
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Window cleaning you cant help but laugh, in what other profession would guys start using a product and then go
hunting for problems to justify its use. ;D
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just wondering as I have never added anythink to purified water do you just clean and rinse as normal, as you aren't really cleaning with purified water anymore does it not leave spots or streaks behind when it dries.
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just wondering as I have never added anythink to purified water do you just clean and rinse as normal, as you aren't really cleaning with purified water anymore does it not leave spots or streaks behind when it dries.
As long as you don't add too much then it wont spot or cause streaks, but it wont stop spotting or streaks if your already
getting them.
As long as the product your using has no tds reading when concentrated or if it has less than one part per million in the water when diluted then it wont show up on your meter or the glass.
So yes you just scrub and rinse as normal and as it has no tds reading then technically your still cleaning with pure.
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any one who thinks putting an adative in to the water to try make frames, windows super dupa clean .and think they have a customer for life they are deluded get a life. I bet the trad guys are psing them selves , me included
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Aren't you the guy who used to put isopropanol in his tank ;D
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who . not me I'm to tight to put owt in my tank MATEY
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must have been somebody else then PAL
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2nd day went well. I'm impressed. I still get a bit nervous with all the bubbles. I use fan jets so not sure if that makes a difference to what bubbles you produce as opposed to using pencil jets ? I've still no clue as to exactly what its doing to the water but it looks good and feels good and thats enough for me. I done a nursing home today too, which i also clean inside so i got to scrutinise the results. Spot on.
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any idea how many ml you put in per litre of pure?
I've got half a dozen bottles of HG fluid. It's quite thick stuff in neat form.
http://oc.hg.eu/products/show/id/8732/window_cleaner
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who . not me I'm to tight to put owt in my tank MATEY
must have been somebody else then PAL
Everyone's so friendly on here ;D
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My two penneth.
I've used hot water, hot water with vision, and cold with vision.
Results for me are as follows:
Hot water and hot with vision, I can work considerably quicker.
Cold with vision, I can work a little quicker, emphasis on 'little.'
However, there is no discernible difference to the quality of the finish either to the glass or the frames that I can see, no matter what I use. I've had no comments from customers about how much better it is as I did when I switched to WFP.
Just my observations.
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I clean my van with wfp and "pure" water only. It comes up fine.
Now - if my van is utterly filthy because I've been a lazy git then I will still do the roof and top of the sides and bonnet with pure alone but I will dip my brush in my bucket with some washing up liquid in it and use that on the muddy lower sides and wheels and then rinse off.
Similarly when I used to do conny roofs gutters and soffits - if they were minging I'd dip my brush in detergent and give them a going over then clean my brush (or switch from cill brush to window cleaning brush) and use pure only to finish off.
On 99% of window cleaning I just use pure alone. The only time I would ever use soap would be if I had a minging green first clean and then I'd probably use the immersion heater too. Then I'd rinse my brush and go over in pure.
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any idea how many ml you put in per litre of pure?
I've got half a dozen bottles of HG fluid. It's quite thick stuff in neat form.
http://oc.hg.eu/products/show/id/8732/window_cleaner
No sorry Dave. I should of done it properly, i.e measure it out . But i never i just squirted. If i had to guess i'd say almost a thimble full. And that was into a 350 litre tank.
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I'll tell you another good one to try i reckon, and it was using that a week or two ago that got me thinking again about adding stuff. Thats "LimeLite". I have a spray bottle of it, got it from Poundstretchers i think it was, if you read the ingredients on that well that is Limonene based and has the citrus smell. Anyway i found that either squirted on my brush (if going high up), or direct on the glass if ground floor, was great for removing large bird soiling, egg etc... Gives the same smooth feel, same froth.
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I've stopped experimenting for now - going to stick with Vision for a few months, see how it goes in the drought and sunny weather we'll get in the spring. :D
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that's if you have any custys left ;D
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I have to beat them off with a stick these days.
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Interesting thread.
I have used RO/DI cold water Pure Freedom system since starting in 2009. I've never added anything to the tank, nor would I.
I use TFR (Evan's TSR 100 or 200) on green uPVC and most first cleans, and G101 on fly sh*t (the only thing i've found that does the job) in either hand-sprayers or from a trolley, depending on size of job. The TFR is necessary to soften the algae and ground in dirt on first-cleans, but unnecessary on any future cleans, if regular.
I weighed up moving to hot - and couldn't justify the set up and running costs for the additional speed it would undoubtedly give me mainly on first cleans only.
I saw an improvement in ease of clean (not necessarily speed) when Gardiners brought out the dual trim Supalite - it moved across the glass easier than the single trim, so was easier on the arms and shoulders.
Additives. Necessary, nay essential, for bad first cleans and connies (unless you want to be there for double the time); totally unnecessary imho on most regular maintenance cleans. I use TFR on my van to soften road film and rinse with tap water. However most windows are not the same as my van which like yours is sprayed directly with all sorts of horrid stuff, unless by a busy road with spray when I accept an additive might help if added in sufficient volume to the water.
I do wonder if guys are rinsing with water with an additive whether the residue (of which there must be some) will form a microscopic, slightly sticky layer on the glass to which dirt dust and pollen will stick more readily (look at the top of your Fairy bottle). This alone would stop me from using any additive in my tank.
Finally, ppm versus ppb debate a while back, i'll say this. If a window is totally clear at say 004 or 005 ppm (it is, i've tested it on several occasions by accident ;D )why would it be necessary to move to a ppb system?
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Interesting thread.
I have used RO/DI cold water Pure Freedom system since starting in 2009. I've never added anything to the tank, nor would I.
I use TFR (Evan's TSR 100 or 200) on green uPVC and most first cleans, and G101 on fly sh*t (the only thing i've found that does the job) in either hand-sprayers or from a trolley, depending on size of job. The TFR is necessary to soften the algae and ground in dirt on first-cleans, but unnecessary on any future cleans, if regular.
I weighed up moving to hot - and couldn't justify the set up and running costs for the additional speed it would undoubtedly give me mainly on first cleans only.
I saw an improvement in ease of clean (not necessarily speed) when Gardiners brought out the dual trim Supalite - it moved across the glass easier than the single trim, so was easier on the arms and shoulders.
Additives. Necessary, nay essential, for bad first cleans and connies (unless you want to be there for double the time); totally unnecessary imho on most regular maintenance cleans. I use TFR on my van to soften road film and rinse with tap water. However most windows are not the same as my van which like yours is sprayed directly with all sorts of horrid stuff, unless by a busy road with spray when I accept an additive might help if added in sufficient volume to the water.
I do wonder if guys are rinsing with water with an additive whether the residue (of which there must be some) will form a microscopic, slightly sticky layer on the glass to which dirt dust and pollen will stick more readily (look at the top of your Fairy bottle). This alone would stop me from using any additive in my tank.
Finally, ppm versus ppb debate a while back, i'll say this. If a window is totally clear at say 004 or 005 ppm (it is, i've tested it on several occasions by accident ;D )why would it be necessary to move to a ppb system?
To be fair on vision I've actually found with the latest version windows stay cleaner for longer. Rain water seem to wash the windows clean which is strange.
The dirt from all these storms made my windows filthy, but last night we had heavy rain and my windows are actually pretty clean. Someone could say they have washed them and id believe it.
So vision definitely doesn't leave a sticky residue on the glass that attracts dirt. I've been using vision in one form or another for about 4 years now and I can categorically say that's not the case.
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Interesting thread.
I have used RO/DI cold water Pure Freedom system since starting in 2009. I've never added anything to the tank, nor would I.
I use TFR (Evan's TSR 100 or 200) on green uPVC and most first cleans, and G101 on fly sh*t (the only thing i've found that does the job) in either hand-sprayers or from a trolley, depending on size of job. The TFR is necessary to soften the algae and ground in dirt on first-cleans, but unnecessary on any future cleans, if regular.
I weighed up moving to hot - and couldn't justify the set up and running costs for the additional speed it would undoubtedly give me mainly on first cleans only.
I saw an improvement in ease of clean (not necessarily speed) when Gardiners brought out the dual trim Supalite - it moved across the glass easier than the single trim, so was easier on the arms and shoulders.
Additives. Necessary, nay essential, for bad first cleans and connies (unless you want to be there for double the time); totally unnecessary imho on most regular maintenance cleans. I use TFR on my van to soften road film and rinse with tap water. However most windows are not the same as my van which like yours is sprayed directly with all sorts of horrid stuff, unless by a busy road with spray when I accept an additive might help if added in sufficient volume to the water.
I do wonder if guys are rinsing with water with an additive whether the residue (of which there must be some) will form a microscopic, slightly sticky layer on the glass to which dirt dust and pollen will stick more readily (look at the top of your Fairy bottle). This alone would stop me from using any additive in my tank.
Finally, ppm versus ppb debate a while back, i'll say this. If a window is totally clear at say 004 or 005 ppm (it is, i've tested it on several occasions by accident ;D )why would it be necessary to move to a ppb system?
To be fair on vision I've actually found with the latest version windows stay cleaner for longer. Rain water seem to wash the windows clean which is strange.
The dirt from all these storms made my windows filthy, but last night we had heavy rain and my windows are actually pretty clean. Someone could say they have washed them and id believe it.
So vision definitely doesn't leave a sticky residue on the glass that attracts dirt. I've been using vision in one form or another for about 4 years now and I can categorically say that's not the case.
Now come on guys do posts like this not show you what sort of numpties these guys are. ::)roll
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When I go back to my customers after a month, I wonder whether they have employed another window cleaner after iv been to clean them properly, I can't understand how they are so clean after a month and I only use pure ;D
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Interesting thread.
I have used RO/DI cold water Pure Freedom system since starting in 2009. I've never added anything to the tank, nor would I.
I use TFR (Evan's TSR 100 or 200) on green uPVC and most first cleans, and G101 on fly sh*t (the only thing i've found that does the job) in either hand-sprayers or from a trolley, depending on size of job. The TFR is necessary to soften the algae and ground in dirt on first-cleans, but unnecessary on any future cleans, if regular.
I weighed up moving to hot - and couldn't justify the set up and running costs for the additional speed it would undoubtedly give me mainly on first cleans only.
I saw an improvement in ease of clean (not necessarily speed) when Gardiners brought out the dual trim Supalite - it moved across the glass easier than the single trim, so was easier on the arms and shoulders.
Additives. Necessary, nay essential, for bad first cleans and connies (unless you want to be there for double the time); totally unnecessary imho on most regular maintenance cleans. I use TFR on my van to soften road film and rinse with tap water. However most windows are not the same as my van which like yours is sprayed directly with all sorts of horrid stuff, unless by a busy road with spray when I accept an additive might help if added in sufficient volume to the water.
I do wonder if guys are rinsing with water with an additive whether the residue (of which there must be some) will form a microscopic, slightly sticky layer on the glass to which dirt dust and pollen will stick more readily (look at the top of your Fairy bottle). This alone would stop me from using any additive in my tank.
Finally, ppm versus ppb debate a while back, i'll say this. If a window is totally clear at say 004 or 005 ppm (it is, i've tested it on several occasions by accident ;D )why would it be necessary to move to a ppb system?
Not a bad post Carl, but using a chemical cleaner on a first clean or a conservatory roof is a lot different to what these guys are talking about which is adding 1 or 2ml of it to 100 litres of water.
It wouldn't have enough of the chemical to make any difference.
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When I go back to my customers after a month, I wonder whether they have employed another window cleaner after iv been to clean them properly, I can't understand how they are so clean after a month and I only use pure ;D
Maybe like Vision the pure is turning the glass into self cleaning. ;D
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Dave f your saying trad guys clean better don't make me laugh ,there are quite a few grad guys round me and not one off them can do the job properly don't wash frame, only scrim little windows it's a joke ,five years down line trad cleaners are gonna be rare especially if health n safety clamp down more on ladders a friend of mine is 64 and has just had to go to a machine because he has started to lose a lot of ladder work through health n safety
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When I go back to my customers after a month, I wonder whether they have employed another window cleaner after iv been to clean them properly, I can't understand how they are so clean after a month and I only use pure ;D
Maybe like Vision the pure is turning the glass into self cleaning. ;D
The other thing iv noticed is that some hydrophobic glass has now gone hydrophilic! now is that just coincidence that vision does that too? or does pure do something to glass on its own over time? 🤔
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jk999 I am not saying trad guys do a better job at all I am just saying all this about putting stuff in the tank to make supa dupa clean .and almost implying you've a custy for life .like I said I picked up a custy whose cleaner had not done conny window for years and frames until I came along got every thing as it should be .only to get the built for some one cheaper so imo why go to all the expence on something that dose not ensure you have a loyal customer there is no such beast hope ive cleared this up for you
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Spot on.
Might be an idea to reassess your technique if it's spotting.
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When I go back to my customers after a month, I wonder whether they have employed another window cleaner after iv been to clean them properly, I can't understand how they are so clean after a month and I only use pure ;D
Maybe like Vision the pure is turning the glass into self cleaning. ;D
The other thing iv noticed is that some hydrophobic glass has now gone hydrophilic! now is that just coincidence that vision does that too? or does pure do something to glass on its own over time? 🤔
That's the thing in wfp its way to easy to see something that's only in your head, a different brush cleaning better
just because a few bird poo's where easier removed on that particular day and so on.
I have had people approach me asking if I was the guy who cleaned the windows with the stuff that makes the windows shinier,
I always say yes why not but know I could get them every bit as shiny and clean using traditional methods.
Put it this way if some muppet canvassed my area using Vision as a sales pitch like most on here I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.
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It is possible that it's working the other way round. Adding a detergent may actually be removing MORE from the glass so that the perceived extra shine most users seem to be getting is from cleaner glass rather than depositing a film.
I once shone a torch through a window that had been cleaned hours earlier with pure water - the results were pretty poor.
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It is possible that it's working the other way round. Adding a detergent may actually be removing MORE from the glass so that the perceived extra shine most users seem to be getting is from cleaner glass rather than depositing a film.
I once shone a torch through a window that had been cleaned hours earlier with pure water - the results were pretty poor.
Remove more of what ? glass even shines when dirty, I was cleaning properties this week that hadn't been cleaned in 12 weeks
and from the road side they where gleaming, ( panic I thought they had replaced me ) its only when I got up close that I noticed
how bad they really where, come on Dave switch your common sense button back on.
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The only way to add shine to a sun/ weather damaged frames is to remove the damaged material by either polishing it off or
coating over it.
So if additives are leaving a better shine then they are either turning the water into a rubbing/ polishing compound or leaving a coating.
This is simple stuff and shouldn't be fooling guys who do this for a living.
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I have cleaned window s 31 years now 16 of those trad , cleaning with pure only is fine but a lot of times I still felt as though are they cleaning properly until kempy introduced me to vision now I don't think it's a miracle solution but I do feel it helps clean windows better. The main thing I like is the bubbles because I feel like I'm cleaning with soapy water and my windows still come up spot free and for what it costs me a think it's nothing. I'm quite an intelligent person so I am not having the wool pulled over my eyes, have you guys that's slagging the product off tried vision
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I once shone a torch through a window that had been cleaned hours earlier with pure water - the results were pretty poor.
You have OCD!
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I once shone a torch through a window that had been cleaned hours earlier with pure water - the results were pretty poor.
You have OCD!
lol
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Not a bad post Carl, but using a chemical cleaner on a first clean or a conservatory roof is a lot different to what these guys are talking about which is adding 1 or 2ml of it to 100 litres of water.
It wouldn't have enough of the chemical to make any difference.
Sean you seem so certain over your views that these additives make no difference, have you tried any of them ?
I'm no scientist so i've no idea what the additives are actually doing. But so far from my own few days with it i can tell you it "feels" better. I was intrigued by how such a small amount of additive can create bubbles, and what do bubbles mean ? I googled it.............
in the same way when you add soap to the water molecules, it reduces the surface tension of the water molecules, their tight grasp on each other becomes slippery, allows the surface to stretch into a bubble
Looks to me like what they're doing is breaking down the tension in the water. What does that mean in practical terms ? I've no idea. But it might explain why it seems to many to feel "smooth" .
I am going to be interested to see how it goes on problem windows, and some glass that usually beads. I think that'll be interesting.
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I once shone a torch through a window that had been cleaned hours earlier with pure water - the results were pretty poor.
You have OCD!
Quite possibly ;D
But this is brought on by my belief that in all the years I've been cleaning I've never thought pure water is particularly good. It's ok but not that good. I just have higher standards than most. :)
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What ever kempy puts in his bottles works, I don't measure it I just give a little squirt. On occasions I have put a little to much in ( in my opinion ) but I just connect up and fill the van as am working to dilute it back again.
I think what ever additive is used as long as it's in or about the right amount it will help with cleaning and not leave and residue behind, as it's diluted to the level it is.
Am not sure how many tank fulls I get out of a bottle but at the price it is, it's worth having a bottle for when it's needed.
Some one else may come along in a few weeks and say 1 x 5ml spoon of fairy liquid is perfect dilution rate for 500L tank, of pure and don't leave no residue behind, or Dave will finally crack what's in vision and post it, then we can all buy it for 50p or whatever it is.
What ever additive anyone is using, be it at the correct levels to not leave anything behind definatley helps
I have been using virosol to clean really dirty glass, am finding that the virosol isn't getting it up good enough in certain parts so we have gone back to the supplier and are now using there heavy duty degreaser which is really fantastic. It's giving us the gliding feeling that vision gives and is really cutting into the ground in dirt.
Sometimes it's just a case of finding what works.
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Not a bad post Carl, but using a chemical cleaner on a first clean or a conservatory roof is a lot different to what these guys are talking about which is adding 1 or 2ml of it to 100 litres of water.
It wouldn't have enough of the chemical to make any difference.
Sean you seem so certain over your views that these additives make no difference, have you tried any of them ?
I'm no scientist so i've no idea what the additives are actually doing. But so far from my own few days with it i can tell you it "feels" better. I was intrigued by how such a small amount of additive can create bubbles, and what do bubbles mean ? I googled it.............
in the same way when you add soap to the water molecules, it reduces the surface tension of the water molecules, their tight grasp on each other becomes slippery, allows the surface to stretch into a bubble
Looks to me like what they're doing is breaking down the tension in the water. What does that mean in practical terms ? I've no idea. But it might explain why it seems to many to feel "smooth" .
I am going to be interested to see how it goes on problem windows, and some glass that usually beads. I think that'll be interesting.
CleanClear well at least you have now cleared up why your trying this, I have never tried HG window cleaner as an additive but have tried a number of different products such as Vision GG4 and a few others for the same reasons you have give ( problem windows )
I actually used the chemicals in my trolley so was able to compare them with pure in my van side by side, to be honest I didn't get a lot of bubbles from any off them more like the bubbles you would get on the glass if you had cleaned them using a traditional
method before then going over them with pure.
I didn't get any difference in the results when comparing them to pure on its own the problem windows still gave the same
problems and still needed the same amount of faffing about to achieve a decent result.
Believe me mate if there was something out there that would help me with problem openers I would be singing its praises from
the rooftops as it certainly would make a massive difference in my work life.
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Another thing to remember is at this time of the year the water is a lot more gloopy because its colder so I certainly
find that a lot of the problem openers don't cause as mush of a problem as you would get in the warmer months.
Its one of the reasons why I would by very reluctant to use hot.
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Another thing to remember is at this time of the year the water is a lot more gloopy because its colder so I certainly
find that a lot of the problem openers don't cause as mush of a problem as you would get in the warmer months.
Its one of the reasons why I would by very reluctant to use hot.
I can't see the logic in that myself as I've found warm/hot purified water works well in any temp .
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Another thing to remember is at this time of the year the water is a lot more gloopy because its colder so I certainly
find that a lot of the problem openers don't cause as mush of a problem as you would get in the warmer months.
Its one of the reasons why I would by very reluctant to use hot.
I can't see the logic in that myself as I've found warm/hot purified water works well in any temp .
Its nothing to do with hot water not being able to clean, its to do with problem windows that cause dirty water to leak out
after you leave, they don't seem to do it as much in the colder weather.
I put it down to the water being more gloopy so it doesn't accumulate as much inside the frame plus the frame being colder
would make it tighter and more waterproof.
I had very little faffing about to do this week with problem frames compared to cleaning the same frames in the warmer
months, nothing has changed other than the temperature.
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Interesting thread.
I have used RO/DI cold water Pure Freedom system since starting in 2009. I've never added anything to the tank, nor would I.
I use TFR (Evan's TSR 100 or 200) on green uPVC and most first cleans, and G101 on fly sh*t (the only thing i've found that does the job) in either hand-sprayers or from a trolley, depending on size of job. The TFR is necessary to soften the algae and ground in dirt on first-cleans, but unnecessary on any future cleans, if regular.
I weighed up moving to hot - and couldn't justify the set up and running costs for the additional speed it would undoubtedly give me mainly on first cleans only.
I saw an improvement in ease of clean (not necessarily speed) when Gardiners brought out the dual trim Supalite - it moved across the glass easier than the single trim, so was easier on the arms and shoulders.
Additives. Necessary, nay essential, for bad first cleans and connies (unless you want to be there for double the time); totally unnecessary imho on most regular maintenance cleans. I use TFR on my van to soften road film and rinse with tap water. However most windows are not the same as my van which like yours is sprayed directly with all sorts of horrid stuff, unless by a busy road with spray when I accept an additive might help if added in sufficient volume to the water.
I do wonder if guys are rinsing with water with an additive whether the residue (of which there must be some) will form a microscopic, slightly sticky layer on the glass to which dirt dust and pollen will stick more readily (look at the top of your Fairy bottle). This alone would stop me from using any additive in my tank.
Finally, ppm versus ppb debate a while back, i'll say this. If a window is totally clear at say 004 or 005 ppm (it is, i've tested it on several occasions by accident ;D )why would it be necessary to move to a ppb system?
To be fair on vision I've actually found with the latest version windows stay cleaner for longer. Rain water seem to wash the windows clean which is strange.
The dirt from all these storms made my windows filthy, but last night we had heavy rain and my windows are actually pretty clean. Someone could say they have washed them and id believe it.
So vision definitely doesn't leave a sticky residue on the glass that attracts dirt. I've been using vision in one form or another for about 4 years now and I can categorically say that's not the case.
Now come on guys do posts like this not show you what sort of numpties these guys are. ::)roll
Care to elaborate? Most will agree with me. Vision keeps windows cleaner for longer.
Remember I have no connection to vision anymore, it's just David kemp.
So if by "guys" you mean the hundreds of people buying vision (99% of which are happy) then who is the real "numpty"?
::)roll ::)roll ::)roll
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The same numpty that thinks thick water stops dripping?
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Interesting thread.
I have used RO/DI cold water Pure Freedom system since starting in 2009. I've never added anything to the tank, nor would I.
I use TFR (Evan's TSR 100 or 200) on green uPVC and most first cleans, and G101 on fly sh*t (the only thing i've found that does the job) in either hand-sprayers or from a trolley, depending on size of job. The TFR is necessary to soften the algae and ground in dirt on first-cleans, but unnecessary on any future cleans, if regular.
I weighed up moving to hot - and couldn't justify the set up and running costs for the additional speed it would undoubtedly give me mainly on first cleans only.
I saw an improvement in ease of clean (not necessarily speed) when Gardiners brought out the dual trim Supalite - it moved across the glass easier than the single trim, so was easier on the arms and shoulders.
Additives. Necessary, nay essential, for bad first cleans and connies (unless you want to be there for double the time); totally unnecessary imho on most regular maintenance cleans. I use TFR on my van to soften road film and rinse with tap water. However most windows are not the same as my van which like yours is sprayed directly with all sorts of horrid stuff, unless by a busy road with spray when I accept an additive might help if added in sufficient volume to the water.
I do wonder if guys are rinsing with water with an additive whether the residue (of which there must be some) will form a microscopic, slightly sticky layer on the glass to which dirt dust and pollen will stick more readily (look at the top of your Fairy bottle). This alone would stop me from using any additive in my tank.
Finally, ppm versus ppb debate a while back, i'll say this. If a window is totally clear at say 004 or 005 ppm (it is, i've tested it on several occasions by accident ;D )why would it be necessary to move to a ppb system?
To be fair on vision I've actually found with the latest version windows stay cleaner for longer. Rain water seem to wash the windows clean which is strange.
The dirt from all these storms made my windows filthy, but last night we had heavy rain and my windows are actually pretty clean. Someone could say they have washed them and id believe it.
So vision definitely doesn't leave a sticky residue on the glass that attracts dirt. I've been using vision in one form or another for about 4 years now and I can categorically say that's not the case.
Now come on guys do posts like this not show you what sort of numpties these guys are. ::)roll
Care to elaborate? Most will agree with me. Vision keeps windows cleaner for longer.
Remember I have no connection to vision anymore, it's just David kemp.
So if by "guys" you mean the hundreds of people buying vision (99% of which are happy) then who is the real "numpty"?
::)roll ::)roll ::)roll
I'm just thankful its in the hundreds I would hate to think the majority of shiners would be that stupid. ::)roll
There are hundreds of happy Chinese people who will pay £80 a pop for a bottle of UK air, just because they are happy doesn't
take away the fact that they're numpties.
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The same numpty that thinks thick water stops dripping?
Was it not the additive guys who said it makes the water more gloopy thus causing less runs. ::)roll
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On an aside, I can't find a safety data sheet for Vision on the Jigsaw site. I would have thought one was required. Or have I got that wrong?
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Just to be clear Dave are you saying that cleaning your windows with an additive will cause them to stay cleaner
longer ?
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On an aside, I can't find a safety data sheet for Vision on the Jigsaw site. I would have thought one was required. Or have I got that wrong?
Kempy has a full professional msds and cosh safety sheet. It's on the website. If you can't find it, just drop him an email and he will send it.
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ftp://
Just to be clear Dave are you saying that cleaning your windows with an additive will cause them to stay cleaner
longer ?
Nope, don't think I said that. I said it's possible an additive may be cleaning more dirt from the glass than pure alone. I do admit that some of this weeks work looked remarkably clean though considering the storms we've had. Someone else mentioned that too.
As much as I really wanted to knock Vision (I really did) I can't find a negative to it, maybe it's not good for aquatic life but there again I doubt fish like fairy much either. It could be a bit pricey I suppose but it's presented in a very professional manner well packaged, proper label and all. The results I find are the same as many others are finding.
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ftp://Just to be clear Dave are you saying that cleaning your windows with an additive will cause them to stay cleaner
longer ?
Nope, don't think I said that. I said it's possible an additive may be cleaning more dirt from the glass than pure alone. I do admit that some of this weeks work looked remarkably clean though considering the storms we've had. Someone else mentioned that too.
As much as I really wanted to knock Vision (I really did) I can't find a negative to it, maybe it's not good for aquatic life but there again I doubt fish like fairy much either. It could be a bit pricey I suppose but it's presented in a very professional manner well packaged, proper label and all. The results I find are the same as many others are finding.
No somebody else actually stated that it keeps the windows cleaner for longer, so I ask you would you consider somebody
who would come out with a statement like that to be someone who has a clue what they're talking about ?
Just to be clear its guys who make statements like this that I consider to be numpties not every person who uses additives.
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Unprovable claims - 'numpty' is a fair description.
Unprovable to me being, keeps windows cleaner for longer, makes glass shine brighter, makes you able to work quicker, makes cleaning easier, makes water run off the glass quicker.
You'll note all the words used to make these claims are in fact subjective. Brighter - brighter than what? Quicker - quicker than what? They're unprovable statements. They cannot be proven either way. Positively or negatively.
I've been using GG4 at a rate of 5ml per 100 litres for the past month. I makes cleaning, as a whole, a more pleasurable and effective experience. What I cannot abide though is someone making unfounded and unproven claims and then failing to prove them either way or backing down when repeatedly asked to offer up proof as to the accuracy of their claims. To me Vision and any other micro diluted 'cleaning agent' work by breaking down the surface tension.
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an intresting thread this,i've enjoyed reading all the posts sean k you crack me up lol ;D
a year ago-yes just a year this topic was all 100% negative with everyone saying additives whatever they were are simply not needed-we were all buffoons i think dave willis said that,-i was expected the witchunters at the door with burning torches ready to nail me to the nearest tree or drown us three in the nearest river charged as witches such was the negativity surrounding additives,
now the tide seems to be changing,of course they are not for everyone-some simply don't understand or are so stuck in the past they'll never change,but if they are happy without useing additives then its not a big thing is it? no point trying to push your views on a subject you have very little experience of
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why would you want windows to stay cleaner longer
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GG4 90% water , great to buy this stuff
Gloopy - what's this word ?
Chinese Air ??
SeanK and others , I have regular said that not all persons will like vision and that's just common sense .
SeanK , why not just accept that vision is selling ok and some persons like using it .
The Msds analyst passed the product and approved its claims . The claims are only standard claims and not like saying it will make our lass look 21 years young again
Etc .
I would like to really argue etc with you SeanK , but it's good banter , comical and it's harmless
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Unprovable claims - 'numpty' is a fair description.
Unprovable to me being, keeps windows cleaner for longer, makes glass shine brighter, makes you able to work quicker, makes cleaning easier, makes water run off the glass quicker.
You'll note all the words used to make these claims are in fact subjective. Brighter - brighter than what? Quicker - quicker than what? They're unprovable statements. They cannot be proven either way. Positively or negatively.
I've been using GG4 at a rate of 5ml per 100 litres for the past month. I makes cleaning, as a whole, a more pleasurable and effective experience. What I cannot abide though is someone making unfounded and unproven claims and then failing to prove them either way or backing down when repeatedly asked to offer up proof as to the accuracy of their claims. To me Vision and any other micro diluted 'cleaning agent' work by breaking down the surface tension.
Unprovable claims? What exactly is it your after?
Kempy has the patience of a Saint dealing with you guys. (By guys I mean you and Sean)
My wife always uses fairy liquid to wash the dishes (occasionally I help ;D) but why does she use fairy? Can she prove to me it works better than lidls own? No not really. Could she achieve the same results with just hot water? Possibly?
She uses it because she likes it better than other brands.
She uses it, she likes it, so she keeps using it.
its not a very good analogy but hopefully you can see the point.
When it comes to cleaning products it's hard to micro analyse and show in video or picture form (which i ASSume thats what you want) that it works.
If you like it..... Use it.
If you don't? ...... Don't. It's really that simple. The best results are the ones that you can see with your nose to the glass yourself.
Just to clarify seank when I said hundreds of people using vision that are happy, I meant 100's per month. So yes even I can do the maths, that is thousands of window cleaners using vision.
But no you and quarter light are probably right. It's the other 99.9% who are wrong.
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Where do we buy this UK air please ???
Go well with my vision sales , I may stock this and sell it !!!!!!!!
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Where do we buy this UK air please ???
Go well with my vision sales , I may stock this and sell it !!!!!!!!
Do you ever watch the news, Google selling air to China.
-
GG4 90% water , great to buy this stuff
Gloopy - what's this word ?
Chinese Air ??
SeanK and others , I have regular said that not all persons will like vision and that's just common sense .
SeanK , why not just accept that vision is selling ok and some persons like using it .
The Msds analyst passed the product and approved its claims . The claims are only standard claims and not like saying it will make our lass look 21 years young again
Etc .
I would like to really argue etc with you SeanK , but it's good banter , comical and it's harmless
Kempy you cant argue for the simple reason you don't have a single solid fact to explain how your product works, the best
you have ever come up is well guys seem to like it.
Doesn't matter how many questions you get asked you never have an answer or an explanation other than the same old
put downs.
I pointed out earlier how and what makes a window frame go dull and what it takes to restore the shine, please tell me
what part of what I said was wrong.
Its the same when anybody comes on with a genuine problem the additive users never step up to the mark and recommend
Vision as the solution.
At the end of the day I honestly don't care how many buy your product and don't believe for one minute that people aren't
so I don't know why you keep asking me to accept it, I also believe that it may be of help to some with confidence issues.
-
The only way to add shine to a sun/ weather damaged frames is to remove the damaged material by either polishing it off or
coating over it.
So if additives are leaving a better shine then they are either turning the water into a rubbing/ polishing compound or leaving a coating.
This is simple stuff and shouldn't be fooling guys who do this for a living.
For example upvc frames have added as an additive during manufacture tio2 titanium dioxide which helps to protect them against damage from sun/weather, because of this some upvc window and door manufacturers will offer a 25 year guarantee on their oem products. these same manufacturers will also recommend that harsh and aggressive cleaning chemicals should not be used when cleaning these type surfaces. upvc when new is bright shiny and has a lovely sheen to it, i damaged a huge amount of these surfaces myself over many years until i realized how corrosive the ingredients were in the cleaning chemicals i was using. my point being its safer all round to ask your supplier for cleaning chemicals which are non-caustic non-corrosive and safe for use on pvc/upvc surfaces and that won't affect their shine.
-
GG4 90% water , great to buy this stuff
Gloopy - what's this word ?
Chinese Air ??
SeanK and others , I have regular said that not all persons will like vision and that's just common sense .
SeanK , why not just accept that vision is selling ok and some persons like using it .
The Msds analyst passed the product and approved its claims . The claims are only standard claims and not like saying it will make our lass look 21 years young again
Etc .
I would like to really argue etc with you SeanK , but it's good banter , comical and it's harmless
Kempy you cant argue for the simple reason you don't have a single solid fact to explain how your product works, the best
you have ever come up is well guys seem to like it.
Doesn't matter how many questions you get asked you never have an answer or an explanation other than the same old
put downs.
I pointed out earlier how and what makes a window frame go dull and what it takes to restore the shine, please tell me
what part of what I said was wrong.
Its the same when anybody comes on with a genuine problem the additive users never step up to the mark and recommend
Vision as the solution.
At the end of the day I honestly don't care how many buy your product and don't believe for one minute that people aren't
so I don't know why you keep asking me to accept it, I also believe that it may be of help to some with confidence issues.
I'm pretty sure that Kempy has never asked that of you.
Me, like many others just get frustrated with the fact that any vision thread that comes up you chime in with your two pennies worth.
Just like that annoying kid at school who thinks by shouting the loudest it makes him right. Your the same.
Have you tried vision neat on frames? It works very very well!
Something you don't seem to get is that added shine can be from a surface being cleaner.
Just like polishing a car, you are removing dirt which allows the light to refract and bounce back to your eye, making it give the impression of a shine. It's just light bouncing back.
So by a product helping to clean better..... Over time this adds a better, more natural shine.
Only my thoughts! But lots of others seem to be finding the same thing.
-
well said
-
GG4 90% water , great to buy this stuff
Gloopy - what's this word ?
Chinese Air ??
SeanK and others , I have regular said that not all persons will like vision and that's just common sense .
SeanK , why not just accept that vision is selling ok and some persons like using it .
The Msds analyst passed the product and approved its claims . The claims are only standard claims and not like saying it will make our lass look 21 years young again
Etc .
I would like to really argue etc with you SeanK , but it's good banter , comical and it's harmless
Kempy you cant argue for the simple reason you don't have a single solid fact to explain how your product works, the best
you have ever come up is well guys seem to like it.
Doesn't matter how many questions you get asked you never have an answer or an explanation other than the same old
put downs.
I pointed out earlier how and what makes a window frame go dull and what it takes to restore the shine, please tell me
what part of what I said was wrong.
Its the same when anybody comes on with a genuine problem the additive users never step up to the mark and recommend
Vision as the solution.
At the end of the day I honestly don't care how many buy your product and don't believe for one minute that people aren't
so I don't know why you keep asking me to accept it, I also believe that it may be of help to some with confidence issues.
I'm pretty sure that Kempy has never asked that if you. Look above. ::)roll
Me, like many others just get frustrated with the fact that any vision thread that comes up you chime in with your two pennies worth.
Just like that annoying kid at school who thinks by shouting the loudest it makes him right. Your the same.
Have you tried vision neat on frames? It works very very well!
Something you don't seem to get is that added shine can be from a surface being cleaner.
Just like polishing a car, you are removing dirt which allows the light to refract and bounce back to your eye, making it give the impression of a shine. It's just light bouncing back.
So by a product helping to clean better..... Over time this adds a better, more natural shine.
Only my thoughts! But lots of others seem to be finding the same thing.
Total rubbish, removing dirt will reveal the shine under it but it wont make it shine any better, if the frame has been
dulled by the sun weather and harsh chemicals as Tadgh mentioned then you could deep clean it and the shine wont come back
or get any better, the same goes for car paintwork.
That's not an opinion its a fact.
-
No ones told me yet how rinse aid makes glassware spotless and shiny - anyone know? Is it because it's squeaky clean or is it coated in something?
-
http://www.rsc.org/learn-chemistry/resources/chemistry-in-your-cupboard/finish/13
Is this doing the same thing?
-
No ones told me yet how rinse aid makes glassware spotless and shiny - anyone know? Is it because it's squeaky clean or is it coated in something?
The glass is clean, all the rinse aid does is reduce any spotting you will get the exact same shine if you wash the glass in water and dry it off properly with a cloth.
You don t even need it if your tap water is around 220ppm or under.
-
GG4 90% water , great to buy this stuff
Gloopy - what's this word ?
Chinese Air ??
SeanK and others , I have regular said that not all persons will like vision and that's just common sense .
SeanK , why not just accept that vision is selling ok and some persons like using it .
The Msds analyst passed the product and approved its claims . The claims are only standard claims and not like saying it will make our lass look 21 years young again
Etc .
I would like to really argue etc with you SeanK , but it's good banter , comical and it's harmless
Kempy you cant argue for the simple reason you don't have a single solid fact to explain how your product works, the best
you have ever come up is well guys seem to like it.
Doesn't matter how many questions you get asked you never have an answer or an explanation other than the same old
put downs.
I pointed out earlier how and what makes a window frame go dull and what it takes to restore the shine, please tell me
what part of what I said was wrong.
Its the same when anybody comes on with a genuine problem the additive users never step up to the mark and recommend
Vision as the solution.
At the end of the day I honestly don't care how many buy your product and don't believe for one minute that people aren't
so I don't know why you keep asking me to accept it, I also believe that it may be of help to some with confidence issues.
I'm pretty sure that Kempy has never asked that if you. Look above. ::)roll
Me, like many others just get frustrated with the fact that any vision thread that comes up you chime in with your two pennies worth.
Just like that annoying kid at school who thinks by shouting the loudest it makes him right. Your the same.
Have you tried vision neat on frames? It works very very well!
Something you don't seem to get is that added shine can be from a surface being cleaner.
Just like polishing a car, you are removing dirt which allows the light to refract and bounce back to your eye, making it give the impression of a shine. It's just light bouncing back.
So by a product helping to clean better..... Over time this adds a better, more natural shine.
Only my thoughts! But lots of others seem to be finding the same thing.
Total rubbish, removing dirt will reveal the shine under it but it wont make it shine any better, if the frame has been
dulled by the sun weather and harsh chemicals as Tadgh mentioned then you could deep clean it and the shine wont come back
or get any better, the same goes for car paintwork.
That's not an opinion its a fact.
I agree with you in that particular instance.
Vision isn't a wonder cleaner that is going to repair a damaged unit, that goes without saying.
You are only quoting a particular circumstance and basing ALL your thoughts on that.
What about frames that are just a little bit ingrained with dirt? Or have those rubber seals that leach out black marks gradually?
If you manage to clean off that little extra bit of dirt, giving it a deeper clean, then you WILL reveal more of the natural shine. I believe this is the main power of using additives.
In my opinion ..........Giving that bit of extra ooooomf in cleaning power means a cleaner and in turn "shinier" window. This may not happen overnight, but regular and consistent use of vision has had this effect on my work.
Your entitled to your opinion but please don't state things as fact when you have no basis.
It wasn't too long ago you said all you need is extreme brushes, then you have now said after using supreme brushes you are finding them better for cleaning. ::)roll ::)roll ::)roll
Just agree to disagree and stop slating a product off that you have little to no knowledge of.
-
SeanK - I've never asked you to accept vision , never have .. Always said some will like it and some won't .
I had to prove the product to the Msds analyst and the Coshh professional analysts. These guys are much more qualified then the Analyst known as SeanK .
-
GG4 90% water , great to buy this stuff
Gloopy - what's this word ?
Chinese Air ??
SeanK and others , I have regular said that not all persons will like vision and that's just common sense .
SeanK , why not just accept that vision is selling ok and some persons like using it .
The Msds analyst passed the product and approved its claims . The claims are only standard claims and not like saying it will make our lass look 21 years young again
Etc .
I would like to really argue etc with you SeanK , but it's good banter , comical and it's harmless
Kempy you cant argue for the simple reason you don't have a single solid fact to explain how your product works, the best
you have ever come up is well guys seem to like it.
Doesn't matter how many questions you get asked you never have an answer or an explanation other than the same old
put downs.
I pointed out earlier how and what makes a window frame go dull and what it takes to restore the shine, please tell me
what part of what I said was wrong.
Its the same when anybody comes on with a genuine problem the additive users never step up to the mark and recommend
Vision as the solution.
At the end of the day I honestly don't care how many buy your product and don't believe for one minute that people aren't
so I don't know why you keep asking me to accept it, I also believe that it may be of help to some with confidence issues.
I'm pretty sure that Kempy has never asked that if you. Look above. ::)roll
Me, like many others just get frustrated with the fact that any vision thread that comes up you chime in with your two pennies worth.
Just like that annoying kid at school who thinks by shouting the loudest it makes him right. Your the same.
Have you tried vision neat on frames? It works very very well!
Something you don't seem to get is that added shine can be from a surface being cleaner.
Just like polishing a car, you are removing dirt which allows the light to refract and bounce back to your eye, making it give the impression of a shine. It's just light bouncing back.
So by a product helping to clean better..... Over time this adds a better, more natural shine.
Only my thoughts! But lots of others seem to be finding the same thing.
Total rubbish, removing dirt will reveal the shine under it but it wont make it shine any better, if the frame has been
dulled by the sun weather and harsh chemicals as Tadgh mentioned then you could deep clean it and the shine wont come back
or get any better, the same goes for car paintwork.
That's not an opinion its a fact.
I agree with you in that particular instance.
Vision isn't a wonder cleaner that is going to repair a damaged unit, that goes without saying.
You are only quoting a particular circumstance and basing ALL your thoughts on that.
What about frames that are just a little bit ingrained with dirt? Or have those rubber seals that leach out black marks gradually?
If you manage to clean off that little extra bit of dirt, giving it a deeper clean, then you WILL reveal more of the natural shine. I believe this is the main power of using additives.
In my opinion ..........Giving that bit of extra ooooomf in cleaning power means a cleaner and in turn "shinier" window. This may not happen overnight, but regular and consistent use of vision has had this effect on my work.
Your entitled to your opinion but please don't state things as fact when you have no basis.
It wasn't too long ago you said all you need is extreme brushes, then you have now said after using supreme brushes you are finding them better for cleaning. ::)roll ::)roll ::)roll
Just agree to disagree and stop slating a product off that you have little to no knowledge of.
I have as much knowledge of the product as you more going by the rubbish you come out with trying to justify its use.
Keeps the windows clean longer. ::)roll
As for the supreme brush well I haven't come to a decision on that one yet but I have no problem saying that I'm wrong
or giving something a go on advice of others, after all I did try your product.
-
Can't wait for the Univalve to come out
Then the expert SeanK can then analyse this product .
-
The only way to add shine to a sun/ weather damaged frames is to remove the damaged material by either polishing it off or
coating over it.
So if additives are leaving a better shine then they are either turning the water into a rubbing/ polishing compound or leaving a coating.
This is simple stuff and shouldn't be fooling guys who do this for a living.
For example upvc frames have added as an additive during manufacture tio2 titanium dioxide which helps to protect them against damage from sun/weather, because of this some upvc window and door manufacturers will offer a 25 year guarantee on their oem products. these same manufacturers will also recommend that harsh and aggressive cleaning chemicals should not be used when cleaning these type surfaces. upvc when new is bright shiny and has a lovely sheen to it, i damaged a huge amount of these surfaces myself over many years until i realized how corrosive the ingredients were in the cleaning chemicals i was using. my point being its safer all round to ask your supplier for cleaning chemicals which are non-caustic non-corrosive and safe for use on pvc/upvc surfaces and that won't affect their shine.
tio2 is a whitening agent used in many cosmetics/toothpastes etc,yes its used in pvcu manufacturing only because we preferer whiter than white in the uk,there are around 47 shades of pvc window extrusions across the european market-for instance the germans and belgians prefer a more creamy white to us brits-hence the more ti02 added to the extrusions produced in the uk,rehau-a german product produced in wales for us brits is more white than say kommerling which is slightly blueish in tint,compare that to spectus which is british and they are shades apart.
ti02 is not a protective agent it is a whitening compound added to the product to give the required shade of white to which they require for a given hemisphere,
-
SeanK - I've never asked you to accept vision , never have .. Always said some will like it and some won't .
I had to prove the product to the Msds analyst and the Coshh professional analysts. These guys are much more qualified then the Analyst known as SeanK .
That's just more bull to fool the gullible, all that proves is the product is not hazardous to health.
-
For supposedly having more knowledge than me seank you can't seem to read and grasp the fact I have no links or ties to visions. I'm just a customer who buys it the same as everyone else. It wasn't "my product".
As you've had to resort to insults I think that says it all, and I'm going to leave it there! Enjoy your Saturday night!
8)
-
I couldn't work with a Extreame brush , but that's my own preference
-
Can't wait for the Univalve to come out
Then the expert SeanK can then analyse this product .
It a devise for turning your water on and off, get a grip or better a life.
-
No ones told me yet how rinse aid makes glassware spotless and shiny - anyone know? Is it because it's squeaky clean or is it coated in something?
The glass is clean, all the rinse aid does is reduce any spotting you will get the exact same shine if you wash the glass in water and dry it off properly with a cloth.
You don t even need it if your tap water is around 220ppm or under.
Well that's because the cloth removes the contaminants. Same reason a chamoix leather is used on a car - prevents spotting. Squeegee blade does the same.
-
For supposedly having more knowledge than me seank you can't seem to read and grasp the fact I have no links or ties to visions. I'm just a customer who buys it the same as everyone else. It wasn't "my product".
As you've had to resort to insults I think that says it all, and I'm going to leave it there! Enjoy your Saturday night!
8)
Your where one of the three founding members so to say you have no links or loyalties other than being a customer is nothing more than a lie.
Plus I don't consider saying somebody is talking rubbish to be an insult if I believe they are talking rubbish.
-
No ones told me yet how rinse aid makes glassware spotless and shiny - anyone know? Is it because it's squeaky clean or is it coated in something?
The glass is clean, all the rinse aid does is reduce any spotting you will get the exact same shine if you wash the glass in water and dry it off properly with a cloth.
You don t even need it if your tap water is around 220ppm or under.
Well that's because the cloth removes the contaminants. Same reason a chamoix leather is used on a car - prevents spotting. Squeegee blade does the same.
Exactly, the same contaminants that we remove when purifying the water.
-
For supposedly having more knowledge than me seank you can't seem to read and grasp the fact I have no links or ties to visions. I'm just a customer who buys it the same as everyone else. It wasn't "my product".
As you've had to resort to insults I think that says it all, and I'm going to leave it there! Enjoy your Saturday night!
8)
i think the earth is still flat in seans world jonny,its entertaining though
-
I wonder if he stands outside bnq slagging off karcher Vacs
-
For supposedly having more knowledge than me seank you can't seem to read and grasp the fact I have no links or ties to visions. I'm just a customer who buys it the same as everyone else. It wasn't "my product".
As you've had to resort to insults I think that says it all, and I'm going to leave it there! Enjoy your Saturday night!
8)
i think the earth is still flat in seans world jonny,its entertaining though
It would certainly be easier to believe the world is flat compared to some of the claims about Vision, its only a matter of
time before somebody says if you rub it on your boot soles you can walk on water. ;D
-
The only way to add shine to a sun/ weather damaged frames is to remove the damaged material by either polishing it off or
coating over it.
So if additives are leaving a better shine then they are either turning the water into a rubbing/ polishing compound or leaving a coating.
This is simple stuff and shouldn't be fooling guys who do this for a living.
For example upvc frames have added as an additive during manufacture tio2 titanium dioxide which helps to protect them against damage from sun/weather, because of this some upvc window and door manufacturers will offer a 25 year guarantee on their oem products. these same manufacturers will also recommend that harsh and aggressive cleaning chemicals should not be used when cleaning these type surfaces. upvc when new is bright shiny and has a lovely sheen to it, i damaged a huge amount of these surfaces myself over many years until i realized how corrosive the ingredients were in the cleaning chemicals i was using. my point being its safer all round to ask your supplier for cleaning chemicals which are non-caustic non-corrosive and safe for use on pvc/upvc surfaces and that won't affect their shine.
tio2 is a whitening agent used in many cosmetics/toothpastes etc,yes its used in pvcu manufacturing only because we preferer whiter than white in the uk,there are around 47 shades of pvc window extrusions across the european market-for instance the germans and belgians prefer a more creamy white to us brits-hence the more ti02 added to the extrusions produced in the uk,rehau-a german product produced in wales for us brits is more white than say kommerling which is slightly blueish in tint,compare that to spectus which is british and they are shades apart.
ti02 is not a protective agent it is a whitening compound added to the product to give the required shade of white to which they require for a given hemisphere,
Hi Kevin, Yes tio2 is also used in many products for its whitening properties, manufacturers of upvc windows and doors also add tio2 during production because its known to provide good UV protection by reflecting and/or scattering most of the suns UV-rays through its high refractive index. Again its the use of caustic and corrosive ingredients used to make harsh and aggressive cleaning chemicals cause most damage to upvc surfaces, i am not saying that Vision will cause any damage to upvc surfaces as i have never seen the sds so don't know what it's derived from but from the high dilution rates the lads recommend i could not see it having any detrimental effect on upvc, but i think you probably know the types of caustic and corrosive cleaning chemicals which do cause detrimental damage to upvc frames and doors. Tadgh
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hi tadgh,we understand each other now i think ;) ;),vision whether its the new version or the old one has nothing in there which will cause any problems to either the framework nor the dgu's,
-
Hi Kevin, yes one of the great things about this forum is that we can all learn from each others knowledge and experiences and then share them with others for their benefit. Tadgh
-
nice debate .keep making the stuff vision , i love it, i wouldn't want to go back to using just pure anymore. is seank donald trump in disguise ?
-
that reminds me, i need to order some more .
-
I've had a thought, ok i know thats dangerous !! ;D But what Dave said about the clear finish on dishes /glasses got me thinking. I havn't got a dishwasher, i do mine in the sink and my glasses still come out perfect.
When i looked on Google at what it actually means/ does when the water tension breaks down well you can see the difference by dropping a paperclip in a glass of water. Plain water the clip floats, water with something in it to break the surface tension and the clip sinks . Apply that to dirt instead of a paperclip ? I know most of the dirt we take off is water soluble but how would less water tension affect that ?
I'm gonna try adding a bit to some plain old tap water and see the results. We might all be conned into buying RO's that we don't need ?
-
Interesting thought isn't it. Wouldn't it be handy to just fill the tank from the tap?
-
I've had a thought, ok i know thats dangerous !! ;D But what Dave said about the clear finish on dishes /glasses got me thinking. I havn't got a dishwasher, i do mine in the sink and my glasses still come out perfect.
When i looked on Google at what it actually means/ does when the water tension breaks down well you can see the difference by dropping a paperclip in a glass of water. Plain water the clip floats, water with something in it to break the surface tension and the clip sinks . Apply that to dirt instead of a paperclip ? I know most of the dirt we take off is water soluble but how would less water tension affect that ?
I'm gonna try adding a bit to some plain old tap water and see the results. We might all be conned into buying RO's that we don't need ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR-ZV-_fQok
-
Taken from Titan Labs Website about GG4 - never tried it myself - our water is around 300 tds.
Crystal clear windows. The windows look like they’re open!
I was a skeptic when I read on your website that Glass Gleam-4 could be applied to a French window, scrubbed on the glass and then rinsed off with a hose, without the use of a squeegee. Wow!! Crystal clear windows. The windows look like they’re open! You guys really have something here. It would have taken me a considerable amount of time to apply the solution with a sleeve, squeegee and then detail the frames and sill. This way I cleaned the frame, mullions and sill of all of the dust and pollen, in addition to the glass.
Frank T.
—Emerald Window Cleaning - Waconia, MN
-
I've had a thought, ok i know thats dangerous !! ;D But what Dave said about the clear finish on dishes /glasses got me thinking. I havn't got a dishwasher, i do mine in the sink and my glasses still come out perfect.
When i looked on Google at what it actually means/ does when the water tension breaks down well you can see the difference by dropping a paperclip in a glass of water. Plain water the clip floats, water with something in it to break the surface tension and the clip sinks . Apply that to dirt instead of a paperclip ? I know most of the dirt we take off is water soluble but how would less water tension affect that ?
I'm gonna try adding a bit to some plain old tap water and see the results. We might all be conned into buying RO's that we don't need ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR-ZV-_fQok
Thats the thing though, i see these experiments and they're interesting in so far as seeing what effect they have on the water and stuff. But how that translates to how we use it i've no idea. I'm just gonna suck it and see. After all i find it bizzare that after spending so long purifying water that i'm now actually adding stuff in to it. Goes against everything i thought.
-
I'm surprised there's so little information to be honest. I thought the big boys might have done some research.
On another note I found this:
GG-4 in solution is 98.7% water, and the way it works is by creating a negative ion, non-magnetic surface on the pane. This does two things: first, it instantly breaks the bonds that hold particulates to the pane, and second, it prevents moisture from clinging to the pane. This leaves your customer with windows that shine like diamonds in the sun, rather than reveal a film that quickly gets dirty again, like dish soaps.
Which I take it to mean that rather than GG4 being 98% water which some people like SeanK thinks. They mean it's 98% water After being mixed with water for trad cleaning - you're not buying 98% water!
-
interesting. do you think gg4 is better than vision?
-
I've had a thought, ok i know thats dangerous !! ;D But what Dave said about the clear finish on dishes /glasses got me thinking. I havn't got a dishwasher, i do mine in the sink and my glasses still come out perfect.
When i looked on Google at what it actually means/ does when the water tension breaks down well you can see the difference by dropping a paperclip in a glass of water. Plain water the clip floats, water with something in it to break the surface tension and the clip sinks . Apply that to dirt instead of a paperclip ? I know most of the dirt we take off is water soluble but how would less water tension affect that ?
I'm gonna try adding a bit to some plain old tap water and see the results. We might all be conned into buying RO's that we don't need ?
Hi CleanClear, you are better off without a dishwasher as the main ingredient in dishwasher Tablets,Powder, and Liquid is sodium hydroxide, which causes detrimental damage to glassware cutlery pots and pans etc, this is the same corrosive ingredient that is used in many of the cleaning chemicals which are used to deep clean ingrained soils from pvc/upvc frames and will just end up degrading and making them become dull looking, just to share for any guys who don't realize how damaging cleaning chemicals which contain sodium hydroxide really are. For anyone who is not to sure just ask your supplier for the sds which will show the ingredients on the products they are supplying then you can make your own judgement. And meant to say thankfully many suppliers in the UK have safer alternatives which they can offer. Tadgh
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GG4 or Vision?
I think they are very similar - at the moment I prefer Vision. They both do similar things to the water - so would a lot of other products. The spec sheets are very different so the ingredients aren't the same. GG4 claims to be very green (but there's also an eco version of Vision). The Vision I'm using at the moment contains a flammable liquid and solvents dirived from plant extracts. So it's possible to guess what it might be but I have no idea what percentages of what ingredients they are mixing (neither does it matter to me).
The surface tension is being reduced plus some gains in cleaning ability - not massively but enough to make a small difference I think.
-
Right got a pleasant suprise today. I'd suspected as much. What i done was put some HG window cleaner in a back pack. Just a small squirt and filled it up with tap water, TDS 160. Yes it foamed and frothed everywhere when filling . Then set about cleaning two bay windows to test it. My first thought was i'd put to much HG in as when i cleaned with the brush it was far more frothy and soapy than i was comfortable with, or would of liked it to be. Results ? Perfect. No streak, spotting or anything just perfectly clean windows.
Ok, i'm gonna test more. I've no idea what is a correct amount to put it. Whats to little or whats not enough. And the other thing i'd be interested to find out is that although that test was fine, what would happen if it was a hot sunny day, would it still be the same perfect result ? I've no idea.
So just to be clear, i've put HG cleaner in my pure water tank. I'm making no claims for it doing anything other than appearing slightly foamy/frothy. I feel its slippier/smoother and easier to clean with. I'm aware that might be in my own head. The results are just a clear finish like you'd excpect with WFP and no additive.
I've also tested HG cleaner in a backpack with TAP WATER. The results are perfect, exactly the same.
It would be good if some others could give it a test out if you have a backpack laying about to test it, i'm not advocating anyone go shove a load in their purewater tank just yet. Be good to get some other feedback. If that stuff works like i'm seeing you can say goodbye to an RO or DI for me.
-
http://www.madefrompinterest.net/magic-clean-windows/
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Gg4 I found to be terrible . Offered very little . And is 90% water in the bottle you buy .
Think I binned mine as it was so diluted .
Not wanting to knock other products , but GG4 was abysmal
Think you will always need a DI smd a RO to remove elements and all the sediments and minerals to get the no spotting results to some degree ...
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Think you will always need a DI smd a RO to remove elements and all the sediments and minerals to get the no spotting results to some degree ...
Have you tried vision just mixed with tap water ?
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If all these additives are doing is breaking the surface tension to alleviate the issue of contaminants in the water what's wrong with just adding a dob of Fairy Liquid to your tank?
I'm not sure, though have an open mind, about your experience yesterday CC with the HG in your backpack water, as breaking the surface tension of a bucket of water still won't address the issue of dissolved components in your tap water. Will it?
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Gg4 I found to be terrible . Offered very little . And is 90% water in the bottle you buy .
Think I binned mine as it was so diluted .
Which is odd, considering the mix ratio you suggest for Vision.
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... the main ingredient in dishwasher Tablets,Powder, and Liquid is sodium hydroxide...
These were selected as the first three where I could find an ingredient list by Googling "dishwasher tablet ingredient list"
https://www.pg.com/productsafety/ingredients/household_care/dish_washing/cascade/Cascade_Powder_Ingredient_Disclosure.pdf
Ecover: Sodium Citrate, Sodium Percarbonate, Sodium Carbonate, Disodium Disilicate, Sodium Bicarbonate, Sodium Poly Asparaginate, Tetra Acetyl Ethylene Diamine (TAED), Water, Iso-octyl Glucoside, D-glucitol, Rapeseed Oil, Perfume, Glycerol, Amylase, Subtilisin, Limonene, Sodium Gluconate.
Fairy Platinum all in one: Sodium Carbonate, Sodium Carbonate Peroxide , Copolymer of acrylic and sulphonic acids , Trideceth-n, PEG/PPG-10/2 Propylheptyl Ether ,Monosodium Etidronate , Protease
No sodium hydroxide in any of them as far as I can see.
Vin
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Try doing the same over the summer days where the drying time is much quicker with the water .
The results will be unsatisfactory
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Sodium hydroxide seems to be mainly in bleach / drain unblocker etc ,
Found this website that lists loads of chems with sodium hydroxide in ...
http://hpd.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/household/search?tbl=TblChemicals&queryx=1310-73-2
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If all these additives are doing is breaking the surface tension to alleviate the issue of contaminants in the water what's wrong with just adding a dob of Fairy Liquid to your tank?
I'm not sure, though have an open mind, about your experience yesterday CC with the HG in your backpack water, as breaking the surface tension of a bucket of water still won't address the issue of dissolved components in your tap water. Will it?
Matt i've no idea how it does it, all i know is it does it. It just leaves them clean like the glasses out your sink ?
As regards adding a dob of Fairy, well a few months ago i'd of said don't be so stupid. Now i'd give it ago to see what it does.
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Try doing the same over the summer days where the drying time is much quicker with the water .
The results will be unsatisfactory
Have you tried this or is that a guess ? Have you tried it in the cooler weather like now and know it gives the results we want or have you found otherwise ?
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If all these additives are doing is breaking the surface tension to alleviate the issue of contaminants in the water what's wrong with just adding a dob of Fairy Liquid to your tank?
I'm not sure, though have an open mind, about your experience yesterday CC with the HG in your backpack water, as breaking the surface tension of a bucket of water still won't address the issue of dissolved components in your tap water. Will it?
Matt i've no idea how it does it, all i know is it does it. It just leaves them clean like the glasses out your sink ?
As regards adding a dob of Fairy, well a few months ago i'd of said don't be so stupid. Now i'd give it ago to see what it does.
Interesting. The RO thing particularly, or the thought of no RO. That'd save me £1000 a year.
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Try doing the same over the summer days where the drying time is much quicker with the water .
The results will be unsatisfactory
If that statement is true there is a suggestion that the makeup of the mix of water (it's constituents) left on the glass changes with time. Which we all know water doesn't if it's just sitting there, twiddling it's thumbs.
I've heard this said before on here, it's by guys IMO who don't rinse as adequately or thoroughly as they could.
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some of you rely do need to get a life
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"Interesting thought isn't it. Wouldn't it be handy to just fill the tank from the tap? "
Handy for the customer to clean their own windows too if they dont need pure water. Handy for every man and his dog who wouldnt need a garage/shed for a static system or an expensive van system to start up a wc business. A simple additive which gets rid of the negative effects of tap water isnt in my interests. and i doubt its in many window cleaners interests when you start thinking of the implications. How about we leave the status quo just as it is, lets just keep producing the old "magic water".
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"Interesting thought isn't it. Wouldn't it be handy to just fill the tank from the tap? "
Handy for the customer to clean their own windows too if they dont need pure water. Handy for every man and his dog who wouldnt need a garage/shed for a static system or an expensive van system to start up a wc business. A simple additive which gets rid of the negative effects of tap water isnt in my interests. and i doubt its in many window cleaners interests when you start thinking of the implications. How about we leave the status quo just as it is, lets just keep producing the old "magic water".
That was my initial thought Nick - but even if this turned out to be true - it's still a s**t job that people don't want to do. The car washing business is booming for the same reason...
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"Interesting thought isn't it. Wouldn't it be handy to just fill the tank from the tap? "
Handy for the customer to clean their own windows too if they dont need pure water. Handy for every man and his dog who wouldnt need a garage/shed for a static system or an expensive van system to start up a wc business. A simple additive which gets rid of the negative effects of tap water isnt in my interests. and i doubt its in many window cleaners interests when you start thinking of the implications. How about we leave the status quo just as it is, lets just keep producing the old "magic water".
True. But if the science is the science there's nothing to do to change that. Why ignore it if its true? Would you seriously continue to produce R.O. water if it is was absolutely unnecessary and proven to be unnecessary? I wouldn't. You'd be mad to and mad to ignore it.
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The only way for something like this to work is if you made a window so hydrophilic that it left itself completely dry after you've rinsed.
If your leaving water on a window that is above 50ppm it WILL leave a spot. You may not see it in dull days but if you were to get direct sun it would look terrible.
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I'm inclined to agree - but why doesn't my dishwasher spot? Are the chemicals so strong they dissolve impurities? Blieve me my dishwasher is far from pure ;D
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some of you rely do need to get a life
Absolutely .
Going to refrain from these posts
I'm super bored
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Is dishwasher cleaning for s 2/3 hour cycles with heat and constantly cleaned during that 3 hours ?
My glasses come out with sediment marks .
Different type of glass (drinking glass ) to a window pane ?
Different washing cycle of 2 to 3 hours , compared to a window that's 30 seconds ?
Don't know . Lol
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Going to refrain from these posts
Is dishwasher cleaning for s 2/3 hour cycles with heat and constantly cleaned during that 3 hours ?
My glasses come out with sediment marks .
Different type of glass (drinking glass ) to a window pane ?
Different washing cycle of 2 to 3 hours , compared to a window that's 30 seconds ?
Don't know . Lol
???
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I'm inclined to agree - but why doesn't my dishwasher spot? Are the chemicals so strong they dissolve impurities? Blieve me my dishwasher is far from pure ;D
Mayb the heat at which your dishwasher dries?
I know they have an actual drying cycle, rather than like us just leaving water to evaporate naturally.
Mayb your into the next new thing. Some kind of hairdryer attached to our poles to dry off the glass. ;D
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yawwwwwwwwwwwwwn
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Strange some of the resistance to even the idea of it. Has anyone even tried some HG yet in either their pure water or tap water to find out ?
All be out of jobs if the public find out !!! Couldn't make that up. Only Kempy will be out of a second business if it works !! ;D
Come on someone else try it, give another 1st hand opinion.
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Try doing the same over the summer days where the drying time is much quicker with the water .
The results will be unsatisfactory
If that statement is true there is a suggestion that the makeup of the mix of water (it's constituents) left on the glass changes with time. Which we all know water doesn't if it's just sitting there, twiddling it's thumbs.
I've heard this said before on here, it's by guys IMO who don't rinse as adequately or thoroughly as they could.
IF what he says is true, it almost means he knows the results are ok now in cooler weather ? And he's the water/chemist/specialist not us ?
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Wouldn't be out of a job 'cos you'd still have to scrub the windows and rinse. Wouldn't need to tell them your water wasn't quite so magical.
I think my tds would be too high to work - who knows. My shower doors get rinsed with 300tds when I've Viakalled them - don't seem to spot for a week or two. Someone tried Demon Shine on one of the forums but it left a wax coating. I remember one numpty was going to try white spirit on here years ago. ;D
GG4 is supposed to contain something that dissolves calcium and magnesium deposits from hard water spotting - not sure if it still would at such low dilution rates.
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yawwwwwwwwwwwwwn
Don't read it then ;D ;D
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"All be out of jobs if the public find out !!! Couldn't make that up"
You just did! nobody said anything about all being out of a job, but you'd have to be pretty blinkered if you cant see that the negatives would outway the positives of finding a way of getting rid of the need for pure water.
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"All be out of jobs if the public find out !!! Couldn't make that up"
You just did! nobody said anything about all being out of a job, but you'd have to be pretty blinkered if you cant see that the negatives would outway the positives of finding a way of getting rid of the need for pure water.
Years ago Nick i used to run a hose to my van and have it running for about 3 or 4 hours to fill up. As everyone had their RO on the side of the tank in the back of the van. Years ago i used to buy and use DI resin, i've never used it in years now. And it all that time i've had trad guys telling me the lots a load of crap. I just go with what works easiest. And i could be totally wrong, but lets see....................
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yawwwwwwwwwwwwwn
yawwwwwwwwwwwwwn
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Come on someone else try it, give another 1st hand opinion.
I'll rig something up to have a go this week sometime. Even if it means 100 litres in the bottom of the van setup. I need to get some HG first. I'll let you know how it goes.
My tap-water TDS is about 300 so thats a reasonable test.
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yawwwwwwwwwwwwwn
yawwwwwwwwwwwwwn
You've gotta love Dave F. Yawn................., he thinks its boring... But then he thinks everything is boring................
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=200995.0
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=200993.msg1765280#msg1765280
Dave is there a reason you come here you're so negative ? If its not that lot above its gotta be that house with a conny that someone beat your quote that consumes your mind ? You come across as dope, if i may be so impolite?
Anyway, i may have inadvertently led some astray. MY facts where wrong. I said i cleaned with tap water 160 tds and the results where good. They wherent. Checking the tap water again, instead of relying on what is , showed tap water 49 TDS. And the results where ok, but not great, considering............
Back to the drawing board, and Daves dull posts.....................................
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The only way to add shine to a sun/ weather damaged frames is to remove the damaged material by either polishing it off or
coating over it.
So if additives are leaving a better shine then they are either turning the water into a rubbing/ polishing compound or leaving a coating.
This is simple stuff and shouldn't be fooling guys who do this for a living.
For example upvc frames have added as an additive during manufacture tio2 titanium dioxide which helps to protect them against damage from sun/weather, because of this some upvc window and door manufacturers will offer a 25 year guarantee on their oem products. these same manufacturers will also recommend that harsh and aggressive cleaning chemicals should not be used when cleaning these type surfaces. upvc when new is bright shiny and has a lovely sheen to it, i damaged a huge amount of these surfaces myself over many years until i realized how corrosive the ingredients were in the cleaning chemicals i was using. my point being its safer all round to ask your supplier for cleaning chemicals which are non-caustic non-corrosive and safe for use on pvc/upvc surfaces and that won't affect their shine.
tio2 is a whitening agent used in many cosmetics/toothpastes etc,yes its used in pvcu manufacturing only because we preferer whiter than white in the uk,there are around 47 shades of pvc window extrusions across the european market-for instance the germans and belgians prefer a more creamy white to us brits-hence the more ti02 added to the extrusions produced in the uk,rehau-a german product produced in wales for us brits is more white than say kommerling which is slightly blueish in tint,compare that to spectus which is british and they are shades apart.
ti02 is not a protective agent it is a whitening compound added to the product to give the required shade of white to which they require for a given hemisphere,
Hi Kevin, Yes tio2 is also used in many products for its whitening properties, manufacturers of upvc windows and doors also add tio2 during production because its known to provide good UV protection by reflecting and/or scattering most of the suns UV-rays through its high refractive index. Again its the use of caustic and corrosive ingredients used to make harsh and aggressive cleaning chemicals cause most damage to upvc surfaces, i am not saying that Vision will cause any damage to upvc surfaces as i have never seen the sds so don't know what it's derived from but from the high dilution rates the lads recommend i could not see it having any detrimental effect on upvc, but i think you probably know the types of caustic and corrosive cleaning chemicals which do cause detrimental damage to upvc frames and doors. Tadgh
Just to share for any guys who carry out restoration of pvc/upvc surfaces we promote a product called Nano PowerShine which will restore the natural sheen on dulled pvc/upvc surfaces after they have been deep cleaned first and left to dry, its applied with a high performance microfiber detailing cloth which will leave behind a very smooth and durable gloss finish. If its of interest to guys who carry out restoration on these type surfaces email info@jskcleaning.ie Tadgh
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Back in the late 90's there was a product for cleaning cars that after you washed car with soapy water you put a capful of whatever it was in a bucket of water then tipped it over car , water just ran off leaving car dry . Anyone remember what it was , just thought it might be worth a try
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dull I may be at least I don't have my head up my back side its only window cleaning not rocket science.get a life
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But some of us want to move forward and not stuck in the 1950.s
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as I have said before its only window cleaning I cant see the point of faffing a bout .its a domestic job that the custy cant do or wont do themselves I just cant get my head round something that is so simple is made out to require all the fuss .some people are in the wrong job. but that's just the way I see it .keep it simple.imo
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So I take it your trad only .
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dull I may be at least I don't have my head up my back side its only window cleaning not rocket science.get a life
You'd think the sensible thing to do would be to not read forums or posts that you found to be "dull".
I'm not very much into stamp collecting, but I don't go on stamp forums posting things like "yaaaaawn".
;D
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there have been much worse. and I'm not trad.
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as I have said before its only window cleaning I cant see the point of faffing a bout .its a domestic job that the custy cant do or wont do themselves I just cant get my head round something that is so simple is made out to require all the fuss .some people are in the wrong job. but that's just the way I see it .keep it simple.imo
i agree.yes keep it simple(running a business and your lifestyle in general when possible!).ive been part of a fellowship that has a motto called K.I.S.S(keep it simple stupid)and it certainly helps with having a less stressed,happier life. :)
on topic i like vision and add a few mls into my tank most days.it adds a great shine and overall leaves a better finish than pure water alone.thats enough for me.its pennies a day to use so ill continue to use it. ;)
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this was turning in to a which hunt ;Dsome times that's what happens when you express an opinion.
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Your opinion was yawwwwn ? if you don't want people to react then don't write such childish responses
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this was turning in to a which hunt ;Dsome times that's what happens when you express an opinion.
He's big enough and man enough to stand up for himself. He knew what response he'd get.
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My point being if your not trad then you chose not to use simple root ie bucket and cloth . someone went to the trouble of putting brush on a pole then working out pure water would clean windows . some of us want to improve that . Someone said if you stand still you might as well be going backwards .
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SAFTY PAL YOU MAY WANT TO KILL YOUR SELF FALLING BUT I PREFER TO BE AROUND A WEE BIT LONGER ;D
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You missed my point nothing to do with safety just that someone had to stick there neck out and try something new they didn't say keep it simple or we would still be using buckets and cloths have to try different things to move forward
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I honestly thought Dave Willis photo would put this nonsense to bed, Guys its simple take a look at his photo and if your not getting the same or better results then use an additive of your choice or continue on as you are until your customers complain or start going elsewhere its up to you.
If you are getting the same results then continue using pure and don't try to fix something that isn't broken.
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I honestly thought Dave Willis photo would put this nonsense to bed, Guys its simple take a look at his photo and if your not getting the same or better results then use an additive of your choice or continue on as you are until your customers complain or start going elsewhere its up to you.
If you are getting the same results then continue using pure and don't try to fix something that isn't broken.
Sean, sorry to put a dampner on your negativity. We know you think they're all a waste of time (additives), you've said it enough times. You may well be 100% correct . However ,some of find them useful and are investigating them . What you still doing here ? You're like a parrot.
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Which photo?
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Which photo?
http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=201002.0
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I remember ......... and?
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I remember ......... and?
Sorry Dave, i was just guessing what picture he meant. I can't help you , i've no idea !! ;D
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;D nor me.
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;D nor me.
That seems about right. ;D you post a picture of a window cleaned using an additive and find it strange that others could
use it to compare their results without one. ::)roll
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I'm going to bed - I'm too tired for riddles.