Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Dave Willis on January 23, 2016, 02:52:29 pm
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Oh yes .......... another friggin' Vision thread.
I have to admit straight away I was never a fan of the 'Vision Boys', I didn't like the way they appeared to use the forum to get rich quick and their approach reminded me of the other great con - 'Magica One Go' so I made it my mission to basically take the pee out of them. Around the same time I started adding GG4 to my tank and later Ecover multi cleaner. GG4 in particular seemed to replicate the results everyone was getting with Vision (although I'd never tried it).
Then I started to get a white slime in my tank after several months so began to get a bit jittery about GG4.
Anyhow, I got my hands on some 'new improved Vision' and gave it a try.
As far as Jigsaws website goes I'd say they were fairly accurate with their claims. A small amount (2ml per 100ml of pure) definitely makes a difference to pure water. It makes it foam and gives a little slip on the glass. It seems to give extra shine to both glass and plastic frames and seems to give a whiter finish to upvc. Is it quicker? difficult one that ......... I'd say no it can't possibly be quicker, the water may look to cascade quicker down the glass (but you'd be hard pressed to measure it) the water appears to react better particularly to hydrophylic glass but I don't think it dissolves dirt any quicker (again hard to prove). The only way it would make you faster is if it boosts your rinsing confidence I think - you may rinse faster and clear off to the next pane believing it's better.
To be perfectly honest - I like it!
You don't need it.
I think it's expensive.
I would like it a tad stronger (more like the original version I'm told).
But I think David Kemp and his buddies are on to something, probably won't change the world of waterfed poling but it's there to try if you want to - choice is yours.
Good stuff.
PS. I don't know what's in it - I managed to replicate the smell of it with a couple of products but still haven't a clue. :)
I might add I've been paid pooploads of money and free Vision for the next thirty years by David Kemp.
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People that like vision and use it like me any many others they tend to keep quite now in fear of ridicule.
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lol
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I had 1 of the first launch and to be fair never got on with the bubbles. I still have half a bottle somewhere.
What I don't understand is how 3 guys bring to market a product that seems to be well received for it then to be revised more than once and then for 2 of the founds to drop out.
All a bit strange IMO
Tony
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I use GG4. This product is a miracle cure-all. It's been known to shovel snow from customers paths, prevents water on patios from freezing, even down to -85°C, occasionally manipulates you into writing drivel about Vision on cleaning forums, it collects outstanding payments and to top it all the uPVC window frames shine all the more.
You Vision boys are so yesterday.
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I use GG4. This product is a miracle cure-all. It's been known to shovel snow from customers paths, prevents water on patios from freezing, even down to -85°C, occasionally manipulates you into writing drivel about Vision on cleaning forums, it collects outstanding payments and to top it all the uPVC window frames shine all the more.
You Vision boys are so yesterday.
;D ;D
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I use GG4. This product is a miracle cure-all. It's been known to shovel snow from customers paths, prevents water on patios from freezing, even down to -85°C, occasionally manipulates you into writing drivel about Vision on cleaning forums, it collects outstanding payments and to top it all the uPVC window frames shine all the more.
You Vision boys are so yesterday.
there's always one
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People that like vision and use it like me any many others they tend to keep quite now in fear of ridicule.
The forum will have those that will always try to rubbish any new idea, or anything that does not fit their "criteria" - history is full of them, they were even given a name "ludites"
If vision and gg4 work for those who use it, then more and more will take it up ( just like WFP ) if it doesn't then it will disappear like a deloren stainless steel car..
Darran
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David Willis - Poacher turned Gamekeeper! ;D
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People that like vision and use it like me any many others they tend to keep quite now in fear of ridicule.
The forum will have those that will always try to rubbish any new idea, or anything that does not fit their "criteria" - history is full of them, they were even given a name "ludites"
If vision and gg4 work for those who use it, then more and more will take it up ( just like WFP ) if it doesn't then it will disappear like a deloren stainless steel car..
Darran
Rubbish, people spend millions on over the counter tooth bleachers/whiteners every year even though the evidence is there
that proves they don't work it the same with many products.
The evidence is also there to prove that these additives don't work and its not hard to find, I wondered after Kempy asked
Dave to contact him on the last Vision post how long it would be until we read something like this.
Use your logic Darran these guys would tell you that GG4 doesn't work and yet you get the same effect using it so does
that make the Vision guys ludites.
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David Willis - Poacher turned Gamekeeper! ;D
👍
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No it makes them buisness men, trying to promote their product over a rival
Think you need to check up the meaning of luddite - I'm sure you have a paper based dictionary somewhere about the house ;)
Darran
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I'm more of a troglodyte myself ;D
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No it makes them buisness men, trying to promote their product over a rival
Think you need to check up the meaning of luddite - I'm sure you have a paper based dictionary somewhere about the house ;)
Darran
I think you need to check out what happens to a concentrated product when its over diluted and then come back and tell
others that they are not wasting their money putting any of these products into their water.
It seems like your afraid to read the truth encase it ruins the magic or that you might end up feeling foolish.
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There are worse things to be ;D
I'm sure your cave has many mod cons !!! ;D
Darran
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I wonder what it took for Dave to sell his soul ? I mean you wouldn't be much of a person to be as critical as
he was on their product if it was just about taking the pee.
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No it makes them buisness men, trying to promote their product over a rival
Think you need to check up the meaning of luddite - I'm sure you have a paper based dictionary somewhere about the house ;)
Darran
I think you need to check out what happens to a concentrated product when its over diluted and then come back and tell
others that they are not wasting their money putting any of these products into their water.
It seems like your afraid to read the truth encase it ruins the magic or that you might end up feeling foolish.
What I will say is, well before vision, I noted that on a good percentage of properties with White upvc frames that had been cleaned every four weeks by WFP looked "dull" clean but "dull" one or two customers commented on this ( initially I thought they had just got used to them being clean ) so what I did was give them a first clean again ( using g101 - diluted ) and the frames were definitely brighter. We took time out to first clean other dull frames with the same results, then, vision arrived I used it and it definitely brightened the frames, I think it's far to expensive for the qty you get, and Dave suggested gg4 changed to that - since then, I've been more than happy with the frames and not had a single comment from customers that the windows don't look as good as they once did. These people are the ones who's opinions I care about they pay my bills - they are also unaware of vision and whether I'm using it or not so I think in this case practical experience trumps theoretical case studies.
But I'm happy to have a read so please post the links thx
Darran
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They could be wasting their money I suppose but that's up to them. I'll most likely get some more in when this bottle runs out - like I said I do actually quite like it. I'd agree with Seank - it's unlikely to clean much better in such small doses but I'd be happy if it could be proven either way. I do like what it does to pure water though.
As for the mystery of two partners leaving the company - who knows? But my guess would be that there's simply not enough profit in it for three versus the hassle to market it/bottle it and post it out.
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I wonder what it took for Dave to sell his soul ? I mean you wouldn't be much of a person to be as critical as
he was on their product if it was just about taking the pee.
Dave has a very dry sense of humour, and by his own admission had not tried vision, he has, and now learned his lesson ;D ;D
and a clever move by them
Darran
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I use GG4. This product is a miracle cure-all. It's been known to shovel snow from customers paths, prevents water on patios from freezing, even down to -85°C, occasionally manipulates you into writing drivel about Vision on cleaning forums, it collects outstanding payments and to top it all the uPVC window frames shine all the more.
You Vision boys are so yesterday.
there's always one
Thats what they said to Einstein.
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I wonder what it took for Dave to sell his soul ? I mean you wouldn't be much of a person to be as critical as
he was on their product if it was just about taking the pee.
Dave has a very dry sense of humour, and by his own admission had not tried vision, he has, and now learned his lesson ;D ;D
and a clever move by them
Darran
Clever move indeed, at last they have found somebody that at least can give a sensible/believable review just a pity they didn't do that
from the start.
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I wonder what it took for Dave to sell his soul ? I mean you wouldn't be much of a person to be as critical as
he was on their product if it was just about taking the pee.
Dave has a very dry sense of humour, and by his own admission had not tried vision, he has, and now learned his lesson ;D ;D
and a clever move by them
Darran
Correct, I always took the pee (and produced my rival FROFF) but never actually critisised the product - many times I said I'd never used it. There are lots of ready made solutions that I feel will do the same but either their tds is rather high or you're nevr quite sure what's going to happen when you use it. I find it quite handy to let the Vision boys do the testing first and bugger up their customers windows ;D
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Dave are you using clear or milky white vision ?
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Sperm coloured.
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That's the latest one out then.
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Sperm coloured.
Definatley ................ Maybe that's what it is, and maybe that's why It took 3 of them to get it up and running ;D
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;D
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I've not noticed much over the years but I have noticed it doesn't matter how you clean Windows WFP the whole area that is cleaned cleans up very well,but has it come to your attention that the whole area that you have cleaned appears to have gone slightly green. This time of the year when the Windows are damp outside they seem to have a film of green algi round them,this only seems to happen this time of the year.
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Not overall, but yes I have a couple of places where certain windows face water, (lakes or the broads) get a bead of algea on the joint lines. Put that down to short days and damp conditions
Darran
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Sperm coloured.
Definatley ................ Maybe that's what it is, and maybe that's why It took 3 of them to get it up and running ;D
I wander why the sperm went from clear to milky :)
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It must be the weather I've seen it a lot lately.
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Sperm coloured.
Definatley ................ Maybe that's what it is, and maybe that's why It took 3 of them to get it up and running ;D
This is how they've got the new mix formulated, they've started giving each other a helping hand in creating their samples.
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Sperm coloured.
Definatley ................ Maybe that's what it is, and maybe that's why It took 3 of them to get it up and running ;D
This is how they've got the new mix formulated, they've started giving each other a helping hand in creating their samples.
Cheers QL I always wondered what they meant when they said they where mixing chemicals, and there was me thinking
they needed to get a grip.
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Sperm coloured.
Definatley ................ Maybe that's what it is, and maybe that's why It took 3 of them to get it up and running ;D
Takes me ages to produce it on my own , now .
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The new VisionV2 will be a little stronger than the one you have Dave .
It will also be sold in a 300 ml bottle
And a value for money 500ml bottle
As for me , Jonny and Kevin splitting up . There was no real reason .
As a 3 it was hard to communicate and make decisions quickly and decisively .
Like having a window cleaning round , it's hard to be in business as a pair or threesome
We thought long and hard and it was a shame the trio split up . No malice , I still value Kevin's and jonny's oponions and miss them . We still have a lot of chats .
Kevin was the main innovator and Myself and Jonny soon helped him take it to the next level .
It's easier to move a product on quicker on my own , quicker decision making etc and Jonny and Kebin have had a lot of input into VisionV2 .
Will see Kevin next week possibly , cleaning in his area next week .
VisionV2 should be for general sale by end of February .
I bet SeanK can't wait ?
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The new VisionV2 will be a little stronger than the one you have Dave .
It will also be sold in a 300 ml bottle
And a value for money 500ml bottle
As for me , Jonny and Kevin splitting up . There was no real reason .
As a 3 it was hard to communicate and make decisions quickly and decisively .
Like having a window cleaning round , it's hard to be in business as a pair or threesome
We thought long and hard and it was a shame the trio split up . No malice , I still value Kevin's and jonny's oponions and miss them . We still have a lot of chats .
Kevin was the main innovator and Myself and Jonny soon helped him take it to the next level .
It's easier to move a product on quicker on my own , quicker decision making etc and Jonny and Kebin have had a lot of input into VisionV2 .
Will see Kevin next week possibly , cleaning in his area next week .
VisionV2 should be for general sale by end of February .
I bet SeanK can't wait ?
Your spot on, Vision reviews are comedy gold.
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Sperm coloured.
Definatley ................ Maybe that's what it is, and maybe that's why It took 3 of them to get it up and running ;D
This is how they've got the new mix formulated, they've started giving each other a helping hand in creating their samples.
I wonder if they'll start to produce vintage bottles. You know, like wine from a single vineyard. I wonder if the experts like Number23 will be able to blind sample the bottles and say for example "that is definitely one of Johnny's". Will he spit I wonder?
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6am and talking about vision. f*** me you lead an interesting life.
If you wanna cum along to a "tasting" session. Let me know. Sounds like you are more excited about it than me.
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6am and talking about vision. f*** me you lead an interesting life.
If you wanna cum along to a "tasting" session. Let me know. Sounds like you are more excited about it than me.
I'd just got in from a night out. ;D
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6am and talking about vision. f*** me you lead an interesting life.
If you wanna cum along to a "tasting" session. Let me know. Sounds like you are more excited about it than me.
I'd just got in from a night out. ;D
That is even worse. Come in, post on CIU ;D
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SeanK , why don't you just accept it that some persons like vision and some persons don't .
Even I accept that some persons don't like using Vision , think I have had about 4 bottles returned so it's done well .
Maybe SeanK just find a hobby , family life or go out and clean more Windows . Pointless you just banging on about the negatives of Vision .
But it is entertaining .
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SeanK , why don't you just accept it that some persons like vision and some persons don't .
Even I accept that some persons don't like using Vision , think I have had about 4 bottles returned so it's done well .
Maybe SeanK just find a hobby , family life or go out and clean more Windows . Pointless you just banging on about the negatives of Vision .
But it is entertaining .
He has a hobby lol
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Sperm coloured.
Definatley ................ Maybe that's what it is, and maybe that's why It took 3 of them to get it up and running ;D
This is how they've got the new mix formulated, they've started giving each other a helping hand in creating their samples.
I wonder if they'll start to produce vintage bottles. You know, like wine from a single vineyard. I wonder if the experts like Number23 will be able to blind sample the bottles and say for example "that is definitely one of Johnny's". Will he spit I wonder?
I've heard he swallows. Every time.
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Thats is a very sad life ;D
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You wouldn't catch me on here on a Sunday - sad gits! ::)roll
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SeanK , why don't you just accept it that some persons like vision and some persons don't .
Even I accept that some persons don't like using Vision , think I have had about 4 bottles returned so it's done well .
Maybe SeanK just find a hobby , family life or go out and clean more Windows . Pointless you just banging on about the negatives of Vision .
But it is entertaining .
Kempy why don't you just accept that whenever somebody starts a Vision thread on here I am going to comment on it,
like you have said its entertaining.
Any chance you could give me the molar count on your product so that I can work out exactly what percentage of what your
customers are using is nothing more than water, my guess at the minute would be about 80%. ;)
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Another version of vision already . If it works out cheaper than Nuclean I might give it another go but wont hold my breath
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Another version of vision already . If it works out cheaper than Nuclean I might give it another go but wont hold my breath
Don't get seank started on Nuclean aswell ;D
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Sperm coloured.
Definatley ................ Maybe that's what it is, and maybe that's why It took 3 of them to get it up and running ;D
Takes me ages to produce it on my own , now .
Hahahaha .......... Good come back kempy,
I can understand at first with it getting going u would need as many providers as possible but now with stocks up and a steady flow keeping ahead of the demand you can go alone ;D
Don't be coming on here in a few weeks saying your arm is aching from using the pole ........... ;D
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Another version of vision already . If it works out cheaper than Nuclean I might give it another go but wont hold my breath
Don't get seank started on Nuclean aswell ;D
Why would I start on Nuclean as with GG4 its only another cleaning product and when used in the way it was designed to be
used I'm sure it does the job.
Now when some dimwit says that by adding 6ml of it to 650litres of pure will turn the pure into a better cleaner that will restore
the shine on plastic frames then I will start.
I don't know the dilution ratios of Nuclean but take GG4, if you where to dilute to its maximum possible which is around 325
times more than the recommendation, at the levels these guys use and mixed to perfection it would only be in about 110litres of the water.
So in a 650litre tank you would have 110litres of pure with GG4 diluted by 325 times more than recommended and 540lites of
pure with nothing in it.
Its not the product I start on just the stupidity of the people using it.
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im still using the original vision(3 bottles bought last year).i put 4ml per 500L tank.it does make a difference.ive still got a full bottle left.
so the new stuff do you have to put TWICE as much in your tank? ::)roll
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im still using the original vision(3 bottles bought last year).i put 4ml per 500L tank.it does make a difference.ive still got a full bottle left.
so the new stuff do you have to put TWICE as much in your tank? ::)roll
It makes no difference, what I have said above also applies to Vision, you cant dilute a product beyond what its possible to
dilute it and that's not an opinion its a fact.
80% of what your putting on the glass is nothing more than pure and the other 20% has minuscule amounts of whatever
it happens to be.
We can all have opinions on what cleaning product does what and which is better but you cant argue with the facts.
You have bought into a placebo nothing more and going by your remark about having to use double the concentration I think
deep down you know it. ;)
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im still using the original vision(3 bottles bought last year).i put 4ml per 500L tank.it does make a difference.ive still got a full bottle left.
so the new stuff do you have to put TWICE as much in your tank? ::)roll
It makes no difference, what I have said above also applies to Vision, you cant dilute a product beyond what its possible to
dilute it and that's not an opinion its a fact.
80% of what your putting on the glass is nothing more than pure and the other 20% has minuscule amounts of whatever
it happens to be.
We can all have opinions on what cleaning product does what and which is better but you cant argue with the facts.
You have bought into a placebo nothing more and going by your remark about having to use double the concentration I think
deep down you know it. ;)
If the results are only 20% better using vision then that's good enough for me..
I still don't know why you harp on about vision seank, if you don't like it then fine, p@ss off to another thread.
Even if it only has a placebo affect, so what. Placebos have been proven to be affective in the medicine world. If using vision gives some people more confidence in the job there doing and helps speed them up or whatever, then great.
Personally I use it because I know it does a better job then pure alone, it helps rinsing on certain types of glass, and the added placebo affect makes me think I'm the best feckin window cleaner in the universe.
Apologies for ranting, I'm buzzing today, must be something in the water..
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im still using the original vision(3 bottles bought last year).i put 4ml per 500L tank.it does make a difference.ive still got a full bottle left.
so the new stuff do you have to put TWICE as much in your tank? ::)roll
It makes no difference, what I have said above also applies to Vision, you cant dilute a product beyond what its possible to
dilute it and that's not an opinion its a fact.
80% of what your putting on the glass is nothing more than pure and the other 20% has minuscule amounts of whatever
it happens to be.
We can all have opinions on what cleaning product does what and which is better but you cant argue with the facts.
You have bought into a placebo nothing more and going by your remark about having to use double the concentration I think
deep down you know it. ;)
If the results are only 20% better using vision then that's good enough for me..
I still don't know why you harp on about vision seank, if you don't like it then fine, p@ss off to another thread.
Even if it only has a placebo affect, so what. Placebos have been proven to be affective in the medicine world. If using vision gives some people more confidence in the job there doing and helps speed them up or whatever, then great.
Personally I use it because I know it does a better job then pure alone, it helps rinsing on certain types of glass, and the added placebo affect makes me think I'm the best feckin window cleaner in the universe.
Apologies for ranting, I'm buzzing today, must be something in the water..
Who said it makes you 20% better ? but totally agree there will certain people such as yourself where it might be of
some use but that doesn't take away from what it is, a bottle of nothing.
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im still using the original vision(3 bottles bought last year).i put 4ml per 500L tank.it does make a difference.ive still got a full bottle left.
so the new stuff do you have to put TWICE as much in your tank? ::)roll
Yes but the Windows and frames are TWICE as shiny.
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im still using the original vision(3 bottles bought last year).i put 4ml per 500L tank.it does make a difference.ive still got a full bottle left.
so the new stuff do you have to put TWICE as much in your tank? ::)roll
It makes no difference, what I have said above also applies to Vision, you cant dilute a product beyond what its possible to
dilute it and that's not an opinion its a fact.
80% of what your putting on the glass is nothing more than pure and the other 20% has minuscule amounts of whatever
it happens to be.
We can all have opinions on what cleaning product does what and which is better but you cant argue with the facts.
You have bought into a placebo nothing more and going by your remark about having to use double the concentration I think
deep down you know it. ;)
If the results are only 20% better using vision then that's good enough for me..
I still don't know why you harp on about vision seank, if you don't like it then fine, p@ss off to another thread.
Even if it only has a placebo affect, so what. Placebos have been proven to be affective in the medicine world. If using vision gives some people more confidence in the job there doing and helps speed them up or whatever, then great.
Personally I use it because I know it does a better job then pure alone, it helps rinsing on certain types of glass, and the added placebo affect makes me think I'm the best feckin window cleaner in the universe.
Apologies for ranting, I'm buzzing today, must be something in the water..
Who said it makes you 20% better ? but totally agree there will certain people such as yourself where it might be of
some use but that doesn't take away from what it is, a bottle of nothing.
Prove it...
As much as I can't prove it produces better results, can you prove it does nothing?
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im still using the original vision(3 bottles bought last year).i put 4ml per 500L tank.it does make a difference.ive still got a full bottle left.
so the new stuff do you have to put TWICE as much in your tank? ::)roll
It makes no difference, what I have said above also applies to Vision, you cant dilute a product beyond what its possible to
dilute it and that's not an opinion its a fact.
80% of what your putting on the glass is nothing more than pure and the other 20% has minuscule amounts of whatever
it happens to be.
We can all have opinions on what cleaning product does what and which is better but you cant argue with the facts.
You have bought into a placebo nothing more and going by your remark about having to use double the concentration I think
deep down you know it. ;)
If the results are only 20% better using vision then that's good enough for me..
I still don't know why you harp on about vision seank, if you don't like it then fine, p@ss off to another thread.
Even if it only has a placebo affect, so what. Placebos have been proven to be affective in the medicine world. If using vision gives some people more confidence in the job there doing and helps speed them up or whatever, then great.
Personally I use it because I know it does a better job then pure alone, it helps rinsing on certain types of glass, and the added placebo affect makes me think I'm the best feckin window cleaner in the universe.
Apologies for ranting, I'm buzzing today, must be something in the water..
Who said it makes you 20% better ? but totally agree there will certain people such as yourself where it might be of
some use but that doesn't take away from what it is, a bottle of nothing.
I already thought I was a great window cleaner before vision.
Since using vision my confidence has gone so high, I get a hard on just looking at myself cleaning windows in the super shiny glass.
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im still using the original vision(3 bottles bought last year).i put 4ml per 500L tank.it does make a difference.ive still got a full bottle left.
so the new stuff do you have to put TWICE as much in your tank? ::)roll
It makes no difference, what I have said above also applies to Vision, you cant dilute a product beyond what its possible to
dilute it and that's not an opinion its a fact.
80% of what your putting on the glass is nothing more than pure and the other 20% has minuscule amounts of whatever
it happens to be.
We can all have opinions on what cleaning product does what and which is better but you cant argue with the facts.
You have bought into a placebo nothing more and going by your remark about having to use double the concentration I think
deep down you know it. ;)
If the results are only 20% better using vision then that's good enough for me..
I still don't know why you harp on about vision seank, if you don't like it then fine, p@ss off to another thread.
Even if it only has a placebo affect, so what. Placebos have been proven to be affective in the medicine world. If using vision gives some people more confidence in the job there doing and helps speed them up or whatever, then great.
Personally I use it because I know it does a better job then pure alone, it helps rinsing on certain types of glass, and the added placebo affect makes me think I'm the best feckin window cleaner in the universe.
Apologies for ranting, I'm buzzing today, must be something in the water..
Who said it makes you 20% better ? but totally agree there will certain people such as yourself where it might be of
some use but that doesn't take away from what it is, a bottle of nothing.
I already thought I was a great window cleaner before vision.
Since using vision my confidence has gone so high, I get a hard on just looking at myself cleaning windows in the super shiny glass.
;D ;D
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im still using the original vision(3 bottles bought last year).i put 4ml per 500L tank.it does make a difference.ive still got a full bottle left.
so the new stuff do you have to put TWICE as much in your tank? ::)roll
It makes no difference, what I have said above also applies to Vision, you cant dilute a product beyond what its possible to
dilute it and that's not an opinion its a fact.
80% of what your putting on the glass is nothing more than pure and the other 20% has minuscule amounts of whatever
it happens to be.
We can all have opinions on what cleaning product does what and which is better but you cant argue with the facts.
You have bought into a placebo nothing more and going by your remark about having to use double the concentration I think
deep down you know it. ;)
If the results are only 20% better using vision then that's good enough for me..
I still don't know why you harp on about vision seank, if you don't like it then fine, p@ss off to another thread.
Even if it only has a placebo affect, so what. Placebos have been proven to be affective in the medicine world. If using vision gives some people more confidence in the job there doing and helps speed them up or whatever, then great.
Personally I use it because I know it does a better job then pure alone, it helps rinsing on certain types of glass, and the added placebo affect makes me think I'm the best feckin window cleaner in the universe.
Apologies for ranting, I'm buzzing today, must be something in the water..
Who said it makes you 20% better ? but totally agree there will certain people such as yourself where it might be of
some use but that doesn't take away from what it is, a bottle of nothing.
Prove it...
As much as I can't prove it produces better results, can you prove it does nothing?
I have explained the science in as basic a way as I possibly can, give or take a small percentage 80% of the windows you clean will have been cleaned by nothing more than pure water, the other 20% will have been cleaned pure water and a cleaning
solution diluted to its limits, I don't need to prove that this is the case because its not my opinion its fact.
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Guys here's something else that may help, all these additives have a tds reading concentrated so why don't they
show up in your pure ?
Answer is they have been diluted to level that's below 1 part per million, now what also has a level that can be under 1 part per million ? pure.
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im still using the original vision(3 bottles bought last year).i put 4ml per 500L tank.it does make a difference.ive still got a full bottle left.
so the new stuff do you have to put TWICE as much in your tank? ::)roll
It makes no difference, what I have said above also applies to Vision, you cant dilute a product beyond what its possible to
dilute it and that's not an opinion its a fact.
80% of what your putting on the glass is nothing more than pure and the other 20% has minuscule amounts of whatever
it happens to be.
We can all have opinions on what cleaning product does what and which is better but you cant argue with the facts.
You have bought into a placebo nothing more and going by your remark about having to use double the concentration I think
deep down you know it. ;)
If the results are only 20% better using vision then that's good enough for me..
I still don't know why you harp on about vision seank, if you don't like it then fine, p@ss off to another thread.
Even if it only has a placebo affect, so what. Placebos have been proven to be affective in the medicine world. If using vision gives some people more confidence in the job there doing and helps speed them up or whatever, then great.
Personally I use it because I know it does a better job then pure alone, it helps rinsing on certain types of glass, and the added placebo affect makes me think I'm the best feckin window cleaner in the universe.
Apologies for ranting, I'm buzzing today, must be something in the water..
Who said it makes you 20% better ? but totally agree there will certain people such as yourself where it might be of
some use but that doesn't take away from what it is, a bottle of nothing.
I already thought I was a great window cleaner before vision.
Since using vision my confidence has gone so high, I get a hard on just looking at myself cleaning windows in the super shiny glass.
Post of the year I reakon. Taking bets now. LMAO
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using vision in your water defo improves the shine on glass and frames.its very noticeable.this is one of the reasons i keep using it.i also get less runs from top rubber seals.they are virtually eliminated with vision treated water. :)
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using vision in your water defo improves the shine on glass and frames.its very noticeable.this is one of the reasons i keep using it.i also get less runs from top rubber seals.they are virtually eliminated with vision treated water. :)
So would you advise newbies not to worry about leaving beads of water siting on dodgy rubber seals as long as they have
Vision in their water ?
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using vision in your water defo improves the shine on glass and frames.its very noticeable.this is one of the reasons i keep using it.i also get less runs from top rubber seals.they are virtually eliminated with vision treated water. :)
You shouldn't be getting runs from top rubber seals Daz if you've either been cleaning those windows regularly or rinse adequately.
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SeanK - how could you have been so stupid to buy some if you already new the science?
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I think it's working so well because it's added to pure water. Anything we normally add to water for cleaning has to have a much higher dosage to overcome the tds of the tap water. So whatever Vision is whether it's a detergent, a soap or some dishwasher fluid from the pound shop it's altering the behaviour of our water because it's so pure. It's not a wonder cleaner by any means but I'd rather have it in my tank than not.
Another odd one is this microbiology b******s that's popped up and nano technology - it's just cleaning that's all. Try them, they aren't that wonderful. Have a look in my Mrs cupboard and see the marketing crap she's bought into. Different cleaning fluid for every appliance in the house.
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im still using the original vision(3 bottles bought last year).i put 4ml per 500L tank.it does make a difference.ive still got a full bottle left.
so the new stuff do you have to put TWICE as much in your tank? ::)roll
It makes no difference, what I have said above also applies to Vision, you cant dilute a product beyond what its possible to
dilute it and that's not an opinion its a fact.
80% of what your putting on the glass is nothing more than pure and the other 20% has minuscule amounts of whatever
it happens to be.
We can all have opinions on what cleaning product does what and which is better but you cant argue with the facts.
You have bought into a placebo nothing more and going by your remark about having to use double the concentration I think
deep down you know it. ;)
If the results are only 20% better using vision then that's good enough for me..
I still don't know why you harp on about vision seank, if you don't like it then fine, p@ss off to another thread.
Even if it only has a placebo affect, so what. Placebos have been proven to be affective in the medicine world. If using vision gives some people more confidence in the job there doing and helps speed them up or whatever, then great.
Personally I use it because I know it does a better job then pure alone, it helps rinsing on certain types of glass, and the added placebo affect makes me think I'm the best feckin window cleaner in the universe.
Apologies for ranting, I'm buzzing today, must be something in the water..
Who said it makes you 20% better ? but totally agree there will certain people such as yourself where it might be of
some use but that doesn't take away from what it is, a bottle of nothing.
Prove it...
As much as I can't prove it produces better results, can you prove it does nothing?
Put it this way I would not advise anyone to drink the stuff nor drink the water after vision has been added to the tank.
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using vision in your water defo improves the shine on glass and frames.its very noticeable.this is one of the reasons i keep using it.i also get less runs from top rubber seals.they are virtually eliminated with vision treated water. :)
You shouldn't be getting runs from top rubber seals Daz if you've either been cleaning those windows regularly or rinse adequately.
we all have a few "problem" windows surely?some rubber seals just run even when you ve took the water off the seal with the brush and rinsed just under.i find with vision the water is slightly "gloopy" and it seems to prevent a lot of runs on these problem windows.i dont have many on my round but the ones i have are defo coming up better(these are upper windows).the really bad ground floor ones are easy to fix(i run a cloth along the top seal then rinse just under)
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im still using the original vision(3 bottles bought last year).i put 4ml per 500L tank.it does make a difference.ive still got a full bottle left.
so the new stuff do you have to put TWICE as much in your tank? ::)roll
The VisionV2 is cheaper to buy as its going to be sold in a 300ml and 500ml bottle .
Dose at 1ml per 100 litres or up to 3ml per 100 litres
I dose a round 2ml
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Some PVC Windows with these black seals are a nightmare at times,got a call back once they looked dreadful had to blade em then drop it.
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Dave you interested in trying an off the shelf product?
I am awaiting delivery :)
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im still using the original vision(3 bottles bought last year).i put 4ml per 500L tank.it does make a difference.ive still got a full bottle left.
so the new stuff do you have to put TWICE as much in your tank? ::)roll
It makes no difference, what I have said above also applies to Vision, you cant dilute a product beyond what its possible to
dilute it and that's not an opinion its a fact.
80% of what your putting on the glass is nothing more than pure and the other 20% has minuscule amounts of whatever
it happens to be.
We can all have opinions on what cleaning product does what and which is better but you cant argue with the facts.
You have bought into a placebo nothing more and going by your remark about having to use double the concentration I think
deep down you know it. ;)
Sorry Sean but your wrong again, and everyone reading this can prove your wrong.
Take a tank of pure water, add vision (particularly the original vision) at a dilution rate of of 1 mill per 100 litres.
As soon as that water had made its way through your hose, you will see and feel the brush head glide on the glass more, and you will also see some "bubbling" on the glass. It will stay that way all day, until your tank is run dry.
According to your logic only for a very small part of the day would you be seeing the effects, which is wrong.
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dave willis
you are a turn coat ;)
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Dave you don't need a lot of " different fluids" with Nuclean as it can be used as a wfp additive in the bucket for trad and is the dogs dangly bits for cleaning plastic gutters etc so I only need to use one cleaning fluid .
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im still using the original vision(3 bottles bought last year).i put 4ml per 500L tank.it does make a difference.ive still got a full bottle left.
so the new stuff do you have to put TWICE as much in your tank? ::)roll
It makes no difference, what I have said above also applies to Vision, you cant dilute a product beyond what its possible to
dilute it and that's not an opinion its a fact.
80% of what your putting on the glass is nothing more than pure and the other 20% has minuscule amounts of whatever
it happens to be.
We can all have opinions on what cleaning product does what and which is better but you cant argue with the facts.
You have bought into a placebo nothing more and going by your remark about having to use double the concentration I think
deep down you know it. ;)
Sorry Sean but your wrong again, and everyone reading this can prove your wrong.
Take a tank of pure water, add vision (particularly the original vision) at a dilution rate of of 1 mill per 100 litres.
As soon as that water had made its way through your hose, you will see and feel the brush head glide on the glass more, and you will also see some "bubbling" on the glass. It will stay that way all day, until your tank is run dry.
According to your logic only for a very small part of the day would you be seeing the effects, which is wrong.
There nothing wrong about it, I cant tell you what the true dilution rate of Vision is as I don't know the molar count but
GG4 has a dilution rate of 325 to 1, now unlike Vision that wont have been worked out by some guys trying it on glass it
will have been worked out by guys in a lab working out the molar count of the solution and matching it with the molar count of
water.
You can do the maths yourself but if add 6ml of GG4 to a 600lt tank then even if its mixed to perfection your only going to
get around 105lts of pure with GG4 diluted 325 times above its recommended amount and the rest will be pure.
The GG4 users get the same effect as Vision as do most solutions when used as additives ,my theory is because the additive
aerates the water when its at a stronger level and this causes the bubbles when pumped through the brush, its something
along these lines but its certainly nothing to do with a solution in the water.
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???
Your not fooling anyone Sean.
The tide has turned. It's just you and Bateman. Mayb you should start a club.
;D
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Dave you interested in trying an off the shelf product?
I am awaiting delivery :)
Not if I'm the first :)
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I've got a molar count of one ..... since they pulled the last tooth out.
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Gg4 dilution is 500 not 325 - just being helpful
Darran
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???
Your not fooling anyone Sean.
The tide has turned. It's just you and Bateman. Mayb you should start a club.
;D
You never know, make me an official tester throw in a free bottle and a t shirt and I could be your next promoter,
it worked on Dave Willis. ;D
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No, it was the money.
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Gg4 dilution is 500 not 325 - just being helpful
Darran
Wont disagree Darran as it doesn't really make much of a difference to the final outcome if anything its worse, your now talking
about 250lts of pure with GG4 diluted to 500 times more than recommended and 350 litres with nothing but pure.
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Yes but, GG4 is designed for trad work with hard water so your dilution rates don't really apply. You could use loads of different products to get the same effect ie. break the surface tension down. The problem is finding one that doesn't spot.
GG4 seems to work ok but I got a slime in the tank eventually. Whatever is in Vision seems to add a little slip to the brush.
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Gg4 is approx 90% water .
The other 10% I just don't know what it is .
I had one bottle of it and lost it somewhere as it was abysmal for my needs .
SeanK and Jonny , lol
I'm wordless to describe this SeanK fella anymore . His posts are just amazing and no need for me to interfere .
To be honest , I'm totally bored reading about it .
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Yes I agree but it's making him feel superior even tho he won't post any links...
Titan labs say themselves the gg4 is suspended in water so no big surprise or revelation their, it's what it does to the water that's the interesting bit,
To seank - the main problem with your argument is that several people have actually tried this and seen a difference I'd take practical results over theory anytime ( and that's based on dozens of real life experiences in engineering where some suit does not understand practical application ) where you let your self down is talking like the tank has a layer of vision/gg4 and the rest is pure, it's more blended than that, you get a consistant mix throughout the day, so even if your right, each window gets a blend of pure water and vision/gg4 empowered pure.
Darran
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Dave you interested in trying an off the shelf product?
I am awaiting delivery :)
Not if I'm the first :)
Will email you when it arrives next week ;) it's for glass :D
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Yes I agree but it's making him feel superior even tho he won't post any links...
Titan labs say themselves the gg4 is suspended in water so no big surprise or revelation their, it's what it does to the water that's the interesting bit,
To seank - the main problem with your argument is that several people have actually tried this and seen a difference I'd take practical results over theory anytime ( and that's based on dozens of real life experiences in engineering where some suit does not understand practical application ) where you let your self down is talking like the tank has a layer of vision/gg4 and the rest is pure, it's more blended than that, you get a consistant mix throughout the day, so even if your right, each window gets a blend of pure water and vision/gg4 empowered pure.
Darran
You don't need any links, if you have a product that has a 500 to 1 dilution ratio then it can only be diluted to 500 times above
its recommended level, it simple for every 1 molecule of water there are 500 molecules of GG4 per ml, so once you get to the
level of 1 molecule of GG4 to 1 ml of water you can dilute it no further.
This isn't rocket science Darran and I can certainly understand the Vision guys for at least pretending they don't get it and then
trying to rubbish it but you have no excuse.
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Yes but, GG4 is designed for trad work with hard water so your dilution rates don't really apply. You could use loads of different products to get the same effect ie. break the surface tension down. The problem is finding one that doesn't spot.
GG4 seems to work ok but I got a slime in the tank eventually. Whatever is in Vision seems to add a little slip to the brush.
Nonsense GG4 does spot as does Vision once you add more than zero parts per million, does that not tell you something.
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???
Your not fooling anyone Sean.
The tide has turned. It's just you and Bateman. Mayb you should start a club.
;D
It?
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Yes but, GG4 is designed for trad work with hard water so your dilution rates don't really apply. You could use loads of different products to get the same effect ie. break the surface tension down. The problem is finding one that doesn't spot.
GG4 seems to work ok but I got a slime in the tank eventually. Whatever is in Vision seems to add a little slip to the brush.
Nonsense GG4 does spot as does Vision once you add more than zero parts per million, does that not tell you something.
Well, pure water doesn't spot up to 30ppm according to some so additives could probably pushed to the same level except the foam would be overwhelming.
Interestingly, the GG4 people scrubbed glass with it on an applicator then hosed the glass down with tap water if I find the link I'll post it up.
Unfortunately we are window cleaners and not chemists so we only have a stab at fathoming it all out.
You still haven't explained why additives are changing the properties of pure water at such low dosages (I have) but you don't want to accept it.
Have you ever wondered how rinse aid works in a dishwasher at higher dosages and with water with a tds of 300?
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Yes but, GG4 is designed for trad work with hard water so your dilution rates don't really apply. You could use loads of different products to get the same effect ie. break the surface tension down. The problem is finding one that doesn't spot.
GG4 seems to work ok but I got a slime in the tank eventually. Whatever is in Vision seems to add a little slip to the brush.
Nonsense GG4 does spot as does Vision once you add more than zero parts per million, does that not tell you something.
Well, pure water doesn't spot up to 30ppm according to some so additives could probably pushed to the same level except the foam would be overwhelming.
Interestingly, the GG4 people scrubbed glass with it on an applicator then hosed the glass down with tap water if I find the link I'll post it up.
Unfortunately we are window cleaners and not chemists so we only have a stab at fathoming it all out.
You still haven't explained why additives are changing the properties of pure water at such low dosages (I have) but you don't want to accept it.
Have you ever wondered how rinse aid works in a dishwasher at higher dosages and with water with a tds of 300?
I have give my theory on why additives cause the water to bubble at such small doses obviously you didn't read it, at the
end of the day Dave that's all its doing, I'm not convinced it has anything to do with surface tension as this would be broken
down anyway by the action of both the pump and brush.
The TDS comment is more to do with showing how little of the solution is actually in the water than about causing
problems with spotting.
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You didn't answer my post.
Why do you think the water is aerating with an additive when it didn't before?
What makes bubbles? Read about it.
How can I float a metal paperclip in water but not when a drop of GG4 is added - think about it.
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You didn't answer my post.
Why do you think the water is aerating with an additive when it didn't before?
What makes bubbles? Read about it.
How can I float a metal paperclip in water but not when a drop of GG4 is added - think about it.
Try this experiment to see whether surface tension of water is broken down at extremely low dilutions.
Fill your 650 L (absolutely detergent free) tank to the brim and let it settle. Now see if a paper clip can be added and floated on the surface. Note the TDS.
If it can then ...
Add 1 ml per 100 litres of your chosen "wonder cleaning solution" , drive round the block and let it settle.
See if the paper clip can float.
Any difference?
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Sorry, my arms aren't long enough to retrieve it!
I would imagine the higher the tds of water is generally the more tension you'll get. But add detergent or soap which also raises tds - surface tension will reduce.
Chuck a bottle of Vision in the dead sea and see what happens ;D
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Sorry, my arms aren't long enough to retrieve it!
I would imagine the higher the tds of water is generally the more tension you'll get. But add detergent or soap which also raises tds - surface tension will reduce.
Chuck a bottle of Vision in the dead sea and see what happens ;D
I tested that theory couple of weeks ago.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-35400884