Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: benny donnelly on November 24, 2015, 01:09:12 pm

Title: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: benny donnelly on November 24, 2015, 01:09:12 pm
I bought a second hand system and just had a go at using it and no power seems to be getting to the controller or pump etc, the battery has 12.5v in it but the power dosent seem to be going anywhere! i cant understand why its not working, there is no on/off button on the controller so it should be straight on when battery hooked up, anyone any ideas as im lost lol
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: NWH on November 24, 2015, 01:56:46 pm
If you have a fuse that you've checked and it's fine I would check all the wiring and I mean all of it,you only need it to be split somewhere along the line and it'll cause you problems.
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: benny donnelly on November 24, 2015, 02:02:22 pm
If you have a fuse that you've checked and it's fine I would check all the wiring and I mean all of it,you only need it to be split somewhere along the line and it'll cause you problems.

There is an inline fuse and i inspected it and it looked fine but ill go get one and change it anyway to defo rule it out and ill inspect the wiring....its a twin controller pump set up but i just want to run it as one so have i much messing to do to the wiring for that? cheers
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Smurf on November 24, 2015, 03:51:43 pm
Might be wise to get an auto sparky to take a look at it as you may have fried the controllers if it was wired up wrong and you connected the leisure battery to it.

Also when you say you bought it secondhand did you actualy see it working?
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: NWH on November 24, 2015, 04:16:56 pm
If you have a fuse that you've checked and it's fine I would check all the wiring and I mean all of it,you only need it to be split somewhere along the line and it'll cause you problems.
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: ascjim on November 24, 2015, 04:36:37 pm
Depends what controller it is. Try holding some buttons.
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: benny donnelly on November 24, 2015, 09:19:07 pm
Ok so I have got some power going now after charging the battery more, I'm getting power straight to the pump but none to the controller, it's a cleaning warehouse system controller with no on off and pushing the buttons does nothing on it, wiring all looks good and I don't know why it's powering the pump and not the controller
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Dave Willis on November 24, 2015, 09:32:54 pm
Some controllers won't work if the voltage isn't high enough try a different/fully charged battery.
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: benny donnelly on November 24, 2015, 09:38:59 pm
I connected it too the van battery and still no joy, proper. Scratching my head with this one

I'll take a pic of it tomorrow and show what's going on
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: NWH on November 24, 2015, 10:31:38 pm
If you wire the pump straight to the battery it will tell you if it's the controller at fault which is what it sounds like,I know someone who doesn't use a controller he just wires  straight to the battery although that means his pump is flat out all the time.
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: dave f on November 25, 2015, 06:34:57 am
get a multi  meter there only a few quid for basic one . if there are  any  spade connectors check they have been crimped correctly  or any wires that may of been frayed or bashed about
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Spruce on November 25, 2015, 06:54:54 am
Might be wise to get an auto sparky to take a look at it as you may have fried the controllers if it was wired up wrong and you connected the leisure battery to it.

Also when you say you bought it secondhand did you actualy see it working?

He still hasn't answered your question Smurf.  ???

Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Don Kee on November 25, 2015, 07:51:52 am
I might be wrong but most controllers have an inbuilt fuse, the inline fuse in one you put in as an extra precaution

If you've/someones blown the inbuilt fuse, you may as well say cheerio controller...

As smurf & spruce have asked, did you see it working?
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Ian Sheppard on November 25, 2015, 10:47:34 am
The TCW controllers will operate as long as you have 10.5V or above with the V11 and  11V with the V9 versions. The controller should have a white label with a serial number and version number on it. This will tell me what it is and its age. So provided you have at least 11V and it would appear you have. Plus the fact the pump runs when connected direct would suggest the controller is the source of the issue. To power up the controller press and hold either the up Or down arrow the display should then come up.

As Both Spruce and Smurf comments did you see the controller working when you bought it?

If the display is blank and will not power up, It would suggest that a short has occurred and damaged he controller. A simple test would be to remove the faceplate and see if it smell of burning.  Also have a look for black burn marks and or Brown staining ( Brown staining is a sign of water damage)

One possibility is that the controller has been miss wired on connection to a battery. DC devices are all polarity sensitive miss connecting the controller will short it out. We do fit a device to protect the processor in this event.  Depending on age and what damage has occurred the unit may be repairable.
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Spruce on November 25, 2015, 04:43:44 pm
He must have a multimeter as he has 12.5v at the battery; or has benny got that from the Spring controller display? Now if he has got that from the Spring controller display then this means that he has power at the controller.
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Ian Sheppard on November 25, 2015, 04:55:54 pm
He must have a multimeter as he has 12.5v at the battery; or has benny got that from the Spring controller display? Now if he has got that from the Spring controller display then this means that he has power at the controller.

Well spotted Spruce the original post quotes 12.5V at the battery. Benny have you a user guide for the controller? If you can confirm which version it Is I can mail you a guide. Also if the display is on what information or messages are displayed please.
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Smurf on November 25, 2015, 05:56:39 pm
I'm confused  ???

Either the controllers display lights up when you turn them on or they don't . Still no power should be going straight to either pump with the controllers properly fitted and working how they should surely?
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Matt. on November 25, 2015, 07:56:36 pm
I have been here we're he is and I reckon it's the wiring somewere

I have had days were I was scratch in my head suton silly I went along disconnecting each connection and reconnecting until u hear that pump kick in
I bought a few pumps an controllers a while back  but swapped back to shurflo and now don't both with controllers just run pump from battery

People say ur running it flat out but in theory ur not coz the id of the hose reduces the amount if water through so it's flowing at say 70-80% not fill throttle and even at full steam ahead shurflo pumps don't just brake down ...... Propa quality they are not like some other suppliers
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Ian Sheppard on November 25, 2015, 08:07:36 pm
To a point yes the hose and jets do restrict flow in the line. However the pump is working at a 100% and drawing its maximum current. With the pump running this hard a lot of back pressure is created so the pump can be working against its self. Using a controller means that the pump only produces the the flow needed. Plus the current draw is reduced. In all a system is more efficient with a controller.
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Spruce on November 25, 2015, 08:13:02 pm
He says its a twin controller setup.  they haven't been out on the market all that long.

http://gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/all-products/pump-hose/pump-controllers/vehicle-pump-controllers/digital-liquid-logic-trade-dual-pump-controller.html

Could he have a negative wire from one controller and the negative wire from the other - even a positive from each side would also cause the same none function.

I would imagine the new Spring controllers have colour coded wiring to identify which wiring goes with which contoller.

Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Ian Sheppard on November 25, 2015, 08:35:42 pm
OK so the controller is a V11 Dual which we have been producing for a while. The Dual has only one power supply so only one Red and One Black for connection to the battery Red to positive - Black to negative because we have one control to two pumps the controller should have a 15 amp fuse in line between the battery and controller.

We then have two Pairs of cables one pair for each pump Brown to pump positive and Blue to Pump Negative on these cables we number the cables so on a Brown and blue pair is number one and the other pair two.

So providing the red and black are connected correctly to the battery terminals pressing up or down on either side will power up the display.  Benny if you do not have a guide email me and I will forward you one.

As long as the controller is wired correctly and has not been damaged it will power up.
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Spruce on November 25, 2015, 09:18:37 pm
Ian, sorry to ask.

If one controller failed for whatever reason, would it cause the other side to fail as well?
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Ian Sheppard on November 25, 2015, 09:21:50 pm
No problem Spruce. The dual has a single power supply into both sides of the controller, So if miss connected yes a short would take out both both displays.
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Spruce on November 25, 2015, 09:24:51 pm
No problem Spruce. The dual has a single power supply into both sides of the controller, So if miss connected yes a short would take out both both displays.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: benny donnelly on November 25, 2015, 09:56:18 pm
Cheers for the help lads.

No i didnt see the system working before i bought it as i got it of ebay and the seller assured me all was working 100% and he was only selling as he needed to upsize, now i know you take that with a pinch of salt but they dont look the most complicated systems so im guessing or hoping its an easy fix.

I know the battery has 12.5v as i have a multi meter, maybe some of the wiring is done wrong as when i connect the battery one of the pumps works but no life in the controllers, i ment to take a pic today but forgot about it tbh but i will defo tomorrow

and cheers ian i will email now
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: benny donnelly on November 25, 2015, 10:35:47 pm
There is a pic of the system  of ebay from where I bought it if it makes more sense for you guys to see it
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: jk999 on November 25, 2015, 10:42:12 pm
With the look off that wiring I would say there is a wiring problem
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: benny donnelly on November 25, 2015, 10:45:56 pm
Ian sent me a wiring diagram and i will inspect proper tomorrow, i only want one of the controllers and pumps working for the mean time so disconnecting one wont be a problem
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: jk999 on November 26, 2015, 12:04:30 am
Find the live and earth wire from the controller put the wires straight to a battery if it lights up you have a problem with the wiring if not its probably your controller
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Dave Willis on November 26, 2015, 08:27:16 am
 :o

Get it wrong and you're going to fry £160 of controllers minimum. That's if they're not wrecked already.
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Ian Sheppard on November 26, 2015, 12:53:37 pm
Ian sent me a wiring diagram and i will inspect proper tomorrow, i only want one of the controllers and pumps working for the mean time so disconnecting one wont be a problem

I have sent you the guide for the V11 Dual which is slightly different to the picture you have posted. These are two V11B controllers that are separately wired. I will send you the relevant guide.
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Ian Sheppard on November 26, 2015, 01:03:18 pm
As these are two separate controller each will have a Red/Black to the battery and a Brown/Blue to the pump
wiring needs to be
Red to battery positive (Fit a 7.5 amp fuse)
Black to Battery negative

Brown to pump positive
Blue to Pump negative

Each controller will need to be separately fused with a 7.5 amp rated fuse in the red between the battery and each controller. Check the connections back through to ensure correct polarity as DC devices are all polarity sensitive. Also ensure that there is no damaged cable with exposed core that could touch to metal.
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: benny donnelly on November 26, 2015, 01:35:01 pm
Ok lads after a bit of tinkering this morning at it I have some sort of a working system just not as I'd like

I have gotten power to the first controller but it's not powering the pump it's wired to, when I connect the power pump 2 starts automatically but no life in controller 2

I tested pump one and it works but can't understand why no power going to it from controller, likewise pump 2 works soon as I connect up the power but it's controller is still dead

Took a few pics to show what's going on
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: benny donnelly on November 26, 2015, 01:36:27 pm
Opened controller 2 and all seems as it should no burn smell or marks all looks very clean
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Tom White on November 26, 2015, 02:27:45 pm
If the power has been put on with the incorrect polarity, these flow controllers fry.  I've fried one myself.

DIY flow controllers here for under £20 and they're really robust and don't fry if you get the polarity wrong:

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=192847.20
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Ian Sheppard on November 26, 2015, 03:08:07 pm
Opened controller 2 and all seems as it should no burn smell or marks all looks very clean

OK controller 0ne is running and displaying a flow rate 83. You may now need to calibrate the controller to the pump
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kKoskb7l7c&index=15&list=PLUpfSwT7wIhfyiM-jbIDJPoH0UlNQZL9y

I can now see that these are both V9 controllers so while the controller is self calibrating  the  display will show show a static C99. While this is displayed leave the controller until a cal figure is displayed likely between 30 and 50. Then press set.

Now controller two is showing signs of water ingress or moisture on the PCB a number of the components are discoloured and showing brown staining. This unit has likely been shorted out.  It is also a V9 so these controllers are about 18 months to two years old.  The 2nd unit may be repairable Ideally i would ask you to return that to us for further inspection. 
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Ian Sheppard on November 26, 2015, 03:16:25 pm
If the power has been put on with the incorrect polarity, these flow controllers fry.  I've fried one myself.

DIY flow controllers here for under £20 and they're really robust and don't fry if you get the polarity wrong:

http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=192847.20

Hi Tosh to  a point protections can be put in place to reduce the risk of reversed polarity on a DC device. DC devices by there nature are designed for current to pass in one direction only as such all DC devices are polarity sensitive. We do fit additional protection to protect the main drive and processor on the PCB, Fitting a fuse will also offer protection.

Passing current the wrong way round a DC circuit will do some damage to the components and device. Heat build up is common  in reverse polarity as the circuit itself becomes a resistor to the current add in moisture and you will get a short somewhere.
Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: benny donnelly on November 27, 2015, 11:55:46 am
Cheers again with the help with this lads

I can't understand why controller 1 is working but the pump ain't (is that because it needs calibrating?) and pump 2 works without power in controller 2

Ideally for the moment I just really want one controller and one pump working, so might just disconnect all and wire for that I take it it's handy enough to do?

Title: Re: Having trouble getting power to system
Post by: Ian Sheppard on November 27, 2015, 12:57:10 pm
Hi Benny controller two has been shorted the reason the pump is powered is that the pump drive stage has been shorted out by water damage as my earlier post the controller nay be repairable. Re control one there was some signs of discoloured components which would suggest water damage,

The controller is displaying a flow rate so calibrating the controller may solve your issue, Follow the user guide and above video to calibrate.