Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Perfect Windows on October 19, 2015, 10:45:20 am
-
Have any people on here employed canvassers? I'm not talking specifically about people actually on the payroll, I'm including people employed on a contract base but only by you (i.e. they are not a canvassing company)
If so, how did you pay them and how effective were they? Were you happy with how they worked based on how you paid them (flat v commission): if they have stopped, is it something you'd do again? Were there any major drawbacks or unexpected benefits?
Thanks.
-
There are several companies around that will do that for you. But alot of chaps prefer to do themselves, I believe at the moment, its about 3 x value of jobs, hope that helps. Some people dont feel confident to knock themselves, so I suppose its easier for them to pay somebody else, from what Ive heard if you get the right company it can work
-
3x the job lol cleaners up north are paying £30 for £10pounder are they,I think not
-
Canvassing doesnt work! ;D
-
As per the title, the question is about people who employ canvassers, not people who pay canvassing companies to work on their behalf.
-
Its the same in any business, if your not confident you outsource sales. Some companies, or small businesses prefer that..... We cant all be masters off all trades, I was a rep, I hated seeing people face to face - got the company car and all that, but telephone work is my forte.... different things for different people
-
Very interesting. The question is about EMPLOYED canvassers. People who work for you. NOT outsourced.
-
Ok yep, so how would you employ them? would it work on commission, or hours worked? part time? basic plus commission? your meaning paying somebody PAYE? yea? Could possibly work, but I think you would have to allocate time etc, maybe part time or something?
-
You'll go through a few until you find someone half decent but you will find someone
Thing is (i'd imagine with sales as a whole) that you'll get a fair turnover of staff with a canvassing 'team' due to the nature of the job & pay
Its unsociable hours and the pay isnt 'top end' and so you'll tend to find that the people you have applying will be younger (which isnt a problem) with less responsibilties (especially if you pay on a commision/paye basis)
The hard part is getting 'decent' people to apply, that fit your criteria & then keeping them happy with the job. (Paying well tends to help with the latter though)
-
Ok yep, so how would you employ them? would it work on commission, or hours worked? part time? basic plus commission? your meaning paying somebody PAYE? yea? Could possibly work, but I think you would have to allocate time etc, maybe part time or something?
Has it occurred to you that those kinds of questions might be why I'm asking?
-
Can I ask why you are thinking of going down that road as opposed to solely leafleting?
-
I have had loads who worked for me over the years!
Pay them 100% of what they gain, thats the most simple and logical way to do it.
Just use the search button Vinny, you know there is loads on canvassing questions on here regarding how much and the whats and if's etc.
-
Sure ok, as a salesperson myself - from my perspective, I would never go for commission only jobs - its all about risk. It depends also on what budget you have to throw at this. I think maybe somebody part time would be cool and see how it progresses, dip the toe in the water, you know also, that retired people are brilliant with customers and canvassing - you don't often need a young gun. Quite often people feel more comfortable with an older generation person........ keep your options open.
-
8-weekly - Why? I'm prepared to try anything if it works. Leaflets work well for us but if we can get customers of the same quality for a similar or lower amount by canvassing I'd be happy. Additionally there is a limit to how many leaflets we can get out reliably at any one time. Having someone (or two) canvassing would add to the rate at which we can grow.
-
Sure ok, as a salesperson myself - from my perspective, I would never go for commission only jobs - its all about risk. It depends also on what budget you have to throw at this. I think maybe somebody part time would be cool and see how it progresses, dip the toe in the water, you know also, that retired people are brilliant with customers and canvassing - you don't often need a young gun. Quite often people feel more comfortable with an older generation person........ keep your options open.
The age point is a very good one - one that I hadn't really thought about. Thanks.
-
Down to budget Perfect, look at the finances, what are you prepare to throw at somebody canvassing for you?
-
Thats alright perfect, but theres alot of retirees, that would like something to keep themselves occupied, probably love talking to people etc. We tend to not tap into that generation. When I think they are more likely to gain business, because they like chatting about life. It has a distinct advantage
-
8-weekly - Why? I'm prepared to try anything if it works. Leaflets work well for us but if we can get customers of the same quality for a similar or lower amount by canvassing I'd be happy. Additionally there is a limit to how many leaflets we can get out reliably at any one time. Having someone (or two) canvassing would add to the rate at which we can grow.
I tried to have someone leafleting for me at all times. It's actually very difficult to retain them. I think Smudger recently employed a canvasser in addition to leafleters.
-
I'm prepared to try anything if it works. Leaflets work well for us but if we can get customers of the same quality for a similar or lower amount by canvassing I'd be happy.
You can guess what my take is on this, Vin ;D
I stopped canvassing for my man on the 9th October (he has to have another operation, hopefully only minor with a couple of weeks recuperation) Between end of August and 9th October I got him up to £500 per week and the majority of those were 8-weekly jobs. I canvassed for an hour and a half max each day in the early evening.
Unless you're going to price your time the same as you would for cleaning (and why should you? - you're not canvassing during cleaning hours) this is by far the most cost effective way to do it. Plus you choose the area you want to work, you present your company in the best possible light and you are the best person to sell your service.
With all that energy you've got it should be a doddle ;)
-
Its not easy for everybody, your a worker, y our a salesman, or you deliver the job. I understand how it works - (only after 23 years) some people do not have the confidence at all to face people - lucky if you have, its good for business, but if you havent you look for alternatives (great if you have the confidence) but not all of us do. So it boils down to outsourcing, some people are great at knocking and being bold, some people aren't . Great if were an all confident singing band............
-
Ian, how many Franchisees did you need to come off the tools completely may I ask?
-
6
-
Thanks :)
-
6
:o
-
That was to give me an income at least as much as I could earn on the tools by myself. Bearing in mind I now work about 2-3 hours a week (except when I'm canvassing) I reckon that's not bad
-
That was to give me an income at least as much as I could earn on the tools by myself. Bearing in mind I now work about 2-3 hours a week (except when I'm canvassing) I reckon that's not bad
That's the reason I decided to employ to be honest. The returns are far greater for an employer. Of course I accept that so is the stress and then there is VAT and so on. I reckon two full time employees are needed to achieve the same result. Anyway, I've no wish to hijack and I accept it's horses for courses.
-
If I was employed full time as a canvasser by anyone, I would want to know what was expected of me to succeed and I would want to know what the long term prospects were/are for me. I would also want to understand how my employer would handle those leads or customers I signed up as it would be important to my job satisfaction.
A short term canvasser will be told that X number of leads are required and this is the pay. If any of those drop out then they are either replaced or deducted from the bill.
Ian's experience is probably much better than mine, but how many leads can you process a day? In other words, if I got 5 qualified leads today, and 10 tomorrow and 10 the following day, are you geared up to do all those first cleans and integrate them into your customer base? As you are slowly growing your business getting another franchisee on board and up to speed doesn't happen over night. Have you got time to do both?
I would also consider that 10 leads at £15 average per clean isn't going to pay my wages, even if a first clean premium is obtained.
I would immediately realise that my future career prospects as a canvasser with the business hinges on how well you, as my employer, handle those leads. If you can't handle them because you haven't the infrastructure or staff to do it, then my job won't last long.
-
I have the ability to knock. I've been a salesman all my working life.
It's very simple. I still clean windows. I want customers to be coming in while I'm working. Leaflets do that and I'm thinking through whether employed canvassers would do the same.
Vin
-
I think this is getting over complicated, employ somebody for sure, but its a numbers game, I make 25 calls an hour for commercial work....... Maybe just dip your toe, try somebody that you trust, and take it from there... Theres risk attached to most things, give it a shot and if it dosent work, least you know. Vin youve just said your a salesperson??? Im only questioning that as I have been for 25 years
-
@ Dave Willis I think the saying is work smarter not harder :)
-
I think this is getting over complicated, employ somebody for sure, but its a numbers game, I make 25 calls an hour for commercial work....... Maybe just dip your toe, try somebody that you trust, and take it from there... Theres risk attached to most things, give it a shot and if it dosent work, least you know. Vin youve just said your a salesperson??? Im only questioning that as I have been for 25 years
So has Vin ;D
-
If I was employed full time as a canvasser by anyone, I would want to know what was expected of me to succeed and I would want to know what the long term prospects were/are for me. I would also want to understand how my employer would handle those leads or customers I signed up as it would be important to my job satisfaction. Good point
A short term canvasser will be told that X number of leads are required and this is the pay. If any of those drop out then they are either replaced or deducted from the bill.I'm open to all ideas about how to pay
Ian's experience is probably much better than mine, but how many leads can you process a day? In other words, if I got 5 qualified leads today, and 10 tomorrow and 10 the following day, are you geared up to do all those first cleans and integrate them into your customer base? As you are slowly growing your business getting another franchisee on board and up to speed doesn't happen over night. Have you got time to do both?We could handle pretty much any number up to about 15 a day. The existing franchisees all want to grow and there's generally a new one hoping to up to speed as fast as possible
I would also consider that 10 leads at £15 average per clean isn't going to pay my wages, even if a first clean premium is obtained. I think the problem is not the one of paying enough when the leads are coming in but being able to pay when times are slow, e.g. through winter
I would immediately realise that my future career prospects as a canvasser with the business hinges on how well you, as my employer, handle those leads. If you can't handle them because you haven't the infrastructure or staff to do it, then my job won't last long.Good point, well made
Thanks for the comments; plenty of food for thought.
I thik I may be more minded to paying an hourly rate to avoid reluctant customers recruited because the knocker needed the deal. I know it brings up other problems, of course.
-
I think this is getting over complicated, employ somebody for sure, but its a numbers game, I make 25 calls an hour for commercial work....... Maybe just dip your toe, try somebody that you trust, and take it from there... Theres risk attached to most things, give it a shot and if it dosent work, least you know. Vin youve just said your a salesperson??? Im only questioning that as I have been for 25 years
I was a salesman from 21 until I started in WC, so 26 years.
I know there's risk attached to everything; I started a business when I didn't need to, for heaven's sake. There's being prepared to take a risk and there's complete recklessness with any potential employee's life - it would be unfair of me not to be sure before I took someone on. I'm far less concerned about any risk to me than the risk to anyone I took on.
-
You must have savvy then? If you were a salesperson, surely you would look for those qualities in somebody else? Im only observing.....
-
I dont understand the risk? you try it out, you set guidelines and if it dosent work it dosent work, its getting rather complicated, you pay a wage for a certain amount of hours - its not difficult, why make it hard work?
-
@ Dave Willis I think the saying is work smarter not harder :)
It's a P take ;D
-
cool
-
I dont understand the risk? you try it out, you set guidelines and if it dosent work it dosent work, its getting rather complicated, you pay a wage for a certain amount of hours - its not difficult, why make it hard work?
Katy, I'll say it again. I'm not particularly worried about risk on my behalf. The risk lies in employing someone, finding out it isn't working and having to tell them their job's gone. It's not in my style to take someone on without thinking it through if by doing that I do harm. I can take the risk but I don't see why an employee should take more risk than absolutely necessary.
All I've asked for is some advice from people who've done what I'm contemplating. Nothing more. I'm trying to glean information. I'm not trying to justify anything or to argue a case. I'm not overcomplicating it; I'm just trying to find out other people's experiences.
-
ok
-
Why don't you just use Mark at Whizz Bizz and be done with it?? its value for money and you get guarantee for your buck! he lives less than 20 miles from you, could realy transform your business??. no decent door to door salesman are hourly paid, you will be paying someone to doodle up and down roads and not giving it there all! door to door canvassers all thrive on commission!. The tried and tested 1 clean value of job works a treat.
You seem to like over complicating things that are realy straight forward. If your not prepared to do it yourself or pay commission to someone you take on then give Mark a call! you wont go far wrong!.
-
Why don't you just use Mark at Whizz Bizz and be done with it?? its value for money and you get guarantee for your buck! he lives less than 20 miles from you, could realy transform your business??. no decent door to door salesman are hourly paid, you will be paying someone to doodle up and down roads and not giving it there all! door to door canvassers all thrive on commission!. The tried and tested 1 clean value of job works a treat.
You seem to like over complicating things that are realy straight forward. If your not prepared to do it yourself or pay commission to 1 you take on then give Mark a call! you wont go far wrong!.
Canvassers are only interested in charging peanuts.
-
Why would a canvasser charge peanuts if on a X1 value?
if Vin wanted £500 of work then any canvasser with half a brain cell would get the best price possible so they hit Vins target in the least amount of time.
-
Why would a canvasser charge peanuts if on a X1 value?
if Vin wanted £500 of work then any canvasser with half a brain cell would get the best price possible so they hit Vins target in the less amount of time.
Because it's easier to get two at a tenner than one at £18. Whizzbiz won't canvass at £27 for a three bed semi.
-
but he could get 6 on 1 street at £15-£20 meaning a much better hourly rate.
-
8 weekly can you read what you just said honey "canvassers are only interested in charging peanuts"
-
but he could get 6 on 1 street at £15-£20 meaning a much better hourly rate.
Perfect Windows has fixed prices. In my experience, going for compact work at a lower cost per unit is a bad strategy long term.
-
8 weekly can you read what you just said honey "canvassers are only interested in charging peanuts"
Phrases I have heard from canvassers on here include "you've got to be realistic" and "beggars can't be choosers".
-
but he could get 6 on 1 street at £15-£20 meaning a much better hourly rate.
Perfect Windows has fixed prices. In my experience, going for compact work at a lower cost per unit is a bad strategy long term.
Well i'm glad i don't have your strategy, why would you want 1 or 2 on a streat for £27 every 12 weeks when you can have 8 or 9 for£15 to £20 4 weekly?? who in a normal world wouldn't want compact work? only a busy fool maybe!.
-
I'm prepared to try anything if it works. Leaflets work well for us but if we can get customers of the same quality for a similar or lower amount by canvassing I'd be happy.
You can guess what my take is on this, Vin ;D
I stopped canvassing for my man on the 9th October (he has to have another operation, hopefully only minor with a couple of weeks recuperation) Between end of August and 9th October I got him up to £500 per week and the majority of those were 8-weekly jobs. I canvassed for an hour and a half max each day in the early evening.
Unless you're going to price your time the same as you would for cleaning (and why should you? - you're not canvassing during cleaning hours) this is by far the most cost effective way to do it. Plus you choose the area you want to work, you present your company in the best possible light and you are the best person to sell your service.
With all that energy you've got it should be a doddle ;)
There you go, employ Ian Lancaster for a few hours. Got to be worth travel & boarding expenses too.
-
but he could get 6 on 1 street at £15-£20 meaning a much better hourly rate.
Perfect Windows has fixed prices. In my experience, going for compact work at a lower cost per unit is a bad strategy long term.
Well i'm glad i don't have your strategy, why would you want 1 or 2 on a streat for £27 every 12 weeks when you can have 8 or 9 for£15 to £20 4 weekly?? who in a normal world wouldn't want compact work? only a busy fool maybe!.
Leaving aside that the £15-£20 is more likely to be £10-£12, the reason is hourly rate. If you don't have a decent hourly rate you can only pay employees peanuts and you get monkeys. If you are a sole trader you can work less hours and less hard for more money. It's about NOT being a busy fool.
-
Hi Vin
Without doubt I would follow Ian's advice regardless of how many times I've tried but failed to prove him wrong LOL!
My next option would be to use a respected canvasser.
If I did decide to recruit/manage my own then it would be self employed at x1 clean paid promptly with drop outs replaced free of charge. I think this would suit all types especially those looking for flexible hours such as mum's, retiree's etc, etc. I would try a card in the local shops, put the word out amongst operators, clients, friends, all literature, website etc, etc.
Spoke recently to a chap who did exactly this, had three operators a student, a mum & a retiree, excellent results.
Keep it simple.
Hope it helps
John
-
Hi Vin
Without doubt I would follow Ian's advice regardless of how many times I've tried but failed to prove him wrong LOL!
My next option would be to use a respected canvasser.
If I did decide to recruit/manage my own then it would be self employed at x1 clean paid promptly with drop outs replaced free of charge.
John
I can't imagine anyone with any intelligence being willing to work for commission only that may be taken away if the wc does a poor job. the only way in my opinion is hourly rate with a bonus of a fiver or tenner each house signed up.
-
'Triggers broom'!!
8 weekly! Why do all canvassers charge x1/ x2/ x3??
Because its a simple system that works!.
An inteligent canvasser would only work for an established professional window cleaner anyway unless desperate for work! If the cleaner does a poor job then the canvasser still gets paid as no fault of his own!
Find me a window cleaning canvasser who works for an hourly rate who gets good results that has veen going for at least a year??
If you can then ill give £20 to a charity of your choice!
If not you can give to a charity of mine!
-
'Triggers broom'!!
8 weekly! Why do all canvassers charge x1/ x2/ x3??
Because its a simple system that works!.
An inteligent canvasser would only work for an established professional window cleaner anyway unless desperate for work! If the cleaner does a poor job then the canvasser still gets paid as no fault of his own!
Find me a window cleaning canvasser who works for an hourly rate who gets good results that has veen going for at least a year??
If you can then ill give £20 to a charity of your choice!
If not you can give to a charity of mine!
The thread is about employing a canvasser. Not taking on someone like Bizwiz.
-
This is soooooooo difficult. I have been asked by many companies to work on commission only, I just wont do it (not window cleaning, several other industries) What Whizzbizz does seem to work for many people, I think he has a good business model going there, not heard any complaints. But thats the way HE works. Canvassing, cold calling, new business is so very hard for the salesperson....... its all about risk, and sometimes the business owner dosent want to take the risk, and the salesperson has to.
-
Knock up a few thousand flyers, train them and pay a basic rate then extra on results if door knocking after the first clean is completed.
If just leaflet dropping and no sales are involved just pay a basic rate on how many flyers they push through ppls doors.
What pay structure you decide is down to you
-
If they are supervised, pay them hourly]
If they are unsuoervised pay them comission
-
This is soooooooo difficult. I have been asked by many companies to work on commission only, I just wont do it (not window cleaning, several other industries) What Whizzbizz does seem to work for many people, I think he has a good business model going there, not heard any complaints. But thats the way HE works. Canvassing, cold calling, new business is so very hard for the salesperson....... its all about risk, and sometimes the business owner dosent want to take the risk, and the salesperson has to.
[/quote
Personally I can't see any risk in canvassing,if you knok on doors you will get jobs,it's a numbers game,if I was going to canvass for a window cleaner,other than myself I would want to be paid on results ant not an hourly rate due to I think canvassers charge twice or three times the value of the job gained,
Well that's my opinion some will agree some will diagree
-
When I first started, I did all my own canvassing; I don't have a problem with knocking on people's doors. However, when working fuller days, going out again became more tiring so I got someone to do it for me. It might have worked if they had followed instructions. The problem is that (usually) a canvasser will maximise the number of properties where they call without consideration for the quality of the property regarding things like access and parking restrictions etc. The canvasser got their money. I got work that was (mostly) impractical.
Solution: If you want it done properly, do it yourself.
-
Vin I did this for a year before starting out on my own in 2011.
Worked on a self employed basis for a company with 6 shiners out on the tools most trad but one WFP van.
Pay structure as below.
Monthly cleans gained paid at 100% per unit.
2 Monthly at 50%
3 Monthly at 33%
Add ons (F/S/G) at 10%
Example : £20 job quote on monthly schedule was worth £20, 2 monthly only £10 and so on.
£20 job with £120 F/S/G on monthly was worth £32 (£20 windows + £12 for F/S/G).
Obviously from my point of view the shortest frequency was best and trying up up sell every job made me (and the company) more money. Every house I visited got a leaflet even if no one in, so more targeted flyers. The only stipulation was that the custie must complete (and pay for) two cleans or I had the money knocked off future wages.
Another scenario was doing the F/S/G cleans myself in the mornings as the company paid 50 % - 50% to it's workforce (I now know that's a criminal rate but hey ho!) Using the above example it works out as below.
£20 - 100% monthly quote
£12 - 10% selling the F/S/G job
£60 - 50% cleaning the F/S/G job
Now worth £92 and if I tradded the windows myself £102 (extra £10 - 50% of £20) Company makes only £38 but has a new £20 monthly custie at 'no cost' to themselves and the 1st clean has been done so no extra time in future.
One other scenario that cropped up during my tenure for which I was paid a flat day rate of £80 as follows:
Boss bought a list of names and addresses from a retired windys nephew (18 months and they'd only been cleaned once by the nephew) and I had to knock each one with a view to converting them. Got roughly 50% of them back in two weeks solid canvassing then spent a month with another windy doing 160+ new cleans.
Why did I leave after 12 months? He got greedy and changed the rules! Now if 'I' canvassed a custie still 100% of price but if a prospective new custie rang the office (even if the leaflet had been left by me) only 10% because they were 'his' custie so a £20 job became a £2 job so sometimes not even worth the squirt to get there!
A nice Hollywood ending tho!
Now I could sell window cleaning, do window cleaning and needed a job. So went and borrowed a ladder bought some cloths and a blade and got cracking. 5 yrs later fully WFP and a compact profitable 8 weekly round.
HTH a bit
-
Thats great captain sparkle.
fair play to you.
-
Vin I did this for a year before starting out on my own in 2011.
...
HTH a bit
That certainly helps! Interesting that you were paid more to get a shorter frequency - we all love our 12-weeklies (thanks to the price) so I might even weight payments the other way.
I hadn't really considered having people who could do some of the cleaning by way of commission - food for thought.
Thank you for a well thought out and detailed answer - really appreciated.
Vin