Clean It Up

UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Dave Willis on October 10, 2015, 07:41:02 am

Title: Business costs?
Post by: Dave Willis on October 10, 2015, 07:41:02 am
Mine seem to have settled around the 6-7K mark most years now - one man sole trader.
Nothing particularly outstanding, no van payments, all paid for. Quite surprised how it all mounts up over the year (no new Extreme poles either  :-[ ) Then there's the tax.

What's your costs like?
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: SeanK on October 10, 2015, 07:50:53 am
Around the £2500 mark, might be a little cheaper this year as haven't really bought or replaced anything.
 
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: DaveG on October 10, 2015, 07:54:39 am
About 23k inc wages
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: kempy on October 10, 2015, 08:49:17 am
Fuel be £2500
I'd imagine expenses from £3k to £10k would be the norm
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: dazmond on October 10, 2015, 09:20:10 am
around 5k a year.(evened out over 5 years)

fuel costs £500-£600 A YEAR due to very little mileage.

Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: chris turner on October 10, 2015, 09:45:50 am
Around the £2500 mark, might be a little cheaper this year as haven't really bought or replaced anything.

That's not surprising. You've probably been wearing the same boxers for the last 5 years as well :o ;D
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: SeanK on October 10, 2015, 10:02:56 am
Around the £2500 mark, might be a little cheaper this year as haven't really bought or replaced anything.

That's not surprising. You've probably been wearing the same boxers for the last 5 years as well :o ;D

Maybe you need to learn how to work out business costs, you do realize just because you pay £10000 for a van it doesn't
cost £10000 a year.
Yes there will be exceptions high mileage more so with commercial work than domestic and if your on metered water but
at the end of the day all we are doing is filtering a few litres of water and rubbing it on glass.
I wouldn't like to live in a country that purifies its drinking water going the what it costs some on here to make a few thousand litres a year. ;D
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: SeanK on October 10, 2015, 10:15:35 am
Fuel be £2500
I'd imagine expenses from £3k to £10k would be the norm

I would say I'm fairly lucky as I don't pay any extra for my water and its fairly easy to purify plus like Dazmond I don't
do much in the way of mileage, a couple of miles a day.
I paid 10k for my van but hope to get 15 years of use from it as its already done 8 years and is as good as the day I bought it
so you can see its not a massive yearly cost but even the guys who pay top money would have to be wasting a lot to be up to the 10k mark as a sole trader.
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: SeanK on October 10, 2015, 10:34:35 am
There are also certain things that are hard to work out as a yearly business cost advertising is one example,
lets say it costs you £5 per customer in advertising then the true expense of that will be the cost divided by the number of
years you have that customer.
Even then this expense will depend on where you are taking your business I haven't advertised other than what's on my van since I started 8 years ago but there will be guys looking to expand year on year so they will have a yearly advertising charge which could cost more than my total yearly charges.
You do have to laugh at some of the replies on here though, Kempy had to  disagree with my expenses claim for the difference
of £500 a year. ;D

Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: Walter Mitty on October 10, 2015, 10:37:47 am
Mine are currently close to £10k, but a lot of that is a van loan.  Also, I pay rent for a place where I filter metered water as I can't do it from home.   Without those two big items I would be well under £5k.  If I calculated the van for the time I keep it beyong paying for it, obviously that woulddrop a fair bit.
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: sunshine windows on October 10, 2015, 10:39:16 am
I reckon some on here spend £10k a year on new brushes alone
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: Smurf on October 10, 2015, 10:42:36 am
I reckon some on here spend £10k a year on new brushes alone

Well apparently they don't last very long  ;D
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: SeanK on October 10, 2015, 10:45:11 am
Mine are currently close to £10k, but a lot of that is a van loan.  Also, I pay rent for a place where I filter metered water as I can't do it from home.   Without those two big items I would be well under £5k.  If I calculated the van for the time I keep it beyong paying for it, obviously that woulddrop a fair bit.

That's the thing it can be hard to see how somebody is paying a lot more or a lot less than yourself, I stated that a sole trader
would be wasting a lot of money to be forking out £10k a year on expenses but didn't take into account the type of expenses
you have.
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: Dave Willis on October 10, 2015, 10:59:07 am
This is my accountants break down.

Motoring expenses           2502
Small tool replacement      775
Telephone                                 192
Use of home as an office   156
PL insurance                             130
Stationary                                    66
Protective clothing               457
Depreciation                           2097
Fees                                                301

Plus the accountants fees, no advertising other than website hosting.
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: kempy on October 10, 2015, 11:00:48 am
I was going to put £2500 as well
Dam it

Fuel and repairs to van £1-3k
Public liability £100
Equipment £1k
Water £ 1k
Clothing , gloves, shoes  etc £250
Advertising

It soon adds up .

But all these are vary diverse between us all .
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: kempy on October 10, 2015, 11:02:33 am
Dave you forgot replacement keyboard of £2k for the amount of time you spend posting on here .

I struggle to do my expenses , like web-hosting just printing of that invoice etc .
But getting better
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: SeanK on October 10, 2015, 11:05:56 am
This is my accountants break down.

Motoring expenses           2502
Small tool replacement      775
Telephone                                 192
Use of home as an office   156
PL insurance                             130
Stationary                                    66
Protective clothing               457
Depreciation                           2097
Fees                                                301

Plus the accountants fees, no advertising other than website hosting.

That's tax returns Dave totally different to actual yearly expenses and where a lot of people go wrong
your true yearly spend would be about half that.
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: Dave Willis on October 10, 2015, 11:14:07 am
It is tax returns but based on my software - please explain why it would be a different figure - I don't understand  ???
Obviously depreciation isn't money actually spent.
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: SeanK on October 10, 2015, 11:14:42 am
I was going to put £2500 as well
Dam it

Fuel and repairs to van £1-3k
Public liability £100
Equipment £1k
Water £ 1k
Clothing , gloves, shoes  etc £250
Advertising

It soon adds up .

But all these are vary diverse between us all .

£2500 are my expenses I never said they where yours or anybody else's It was just the fact you put the range between
3 and 10k that I found funny you just couldn't bring yourself to make between 2.5 and 10k  ;D
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: Dave Willis on October 10, 2015, 11:18:40 am
Net expenses come out at 5917 plus accountants fees so still over 6k for last year.
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: SeanK on October 10, 2015, 11:28:11 am
It is tax returns but based on my software - please explain why it would be a different figure - I don't understand  ???

Example if you replace your RO membrane this year at £250 then that cost will be added to you tax return even though
you might get 5 years from it, so its true yearly cost will be £50 plus the value of £500 over that period.
Motoring expenses will be another example if you are paying off a loan on a new van then at the moment your motoring
cost will be high and you can claim for this but true yearly cost will be down to how long you plan to keep the van and its
capital value at any point in time.
That's why most companies work out their costs over a 5 year period.
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: Dave Willis on October 10, 2015, 11:36:33 am
I see - I don't agree with your first point and as stated I don't have a loan but I see where you're coming from.
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: CleanClear on October 10, 2015, 03:02:22 pm

Example if you replace your RO membrane this year at £250 then that cost will be added to you tax return even though
you might get 5 years from it, so its true yearly cost will be £50 plus the value of £500 over that period.


If you replace your RO membrane at a cost of £250 then you will add that figure to your tax return as an expense. It is of course a consumable . Irrespective of whether it lasts you 1 year, 2 years or 5 years. Whats the value of £500 got to do with anything ?
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: CleanClear on October 10, 2015, 03:03:36 pm
This is my accountants break down.

Motoring expenses           2502
Small tool replacement      775
Telephone                                 192
Use of home as an office   156
PL insurance                             130
Stationary                                    66
Protective clothing               457
Depreciation                           2097
Fees                                                301

Plus the accountants fees, no advertising other than website hosting.

I'd love to know what you have that depreciates £2097 in a year.
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: SeanK on October 10, 2015, 04:43:39 pm

Example if you replace your RO membrane this year at £250 then that cost will be added to you tax return even though
you might get 5 years from it, so its true yearly cost will be £50 plus the value of £500 over that period.




If you replace your RO membrane at a cost of £250 then you will add that figure to your tax return as an expense. It is of course a consumable . Irrespective of whether it lasts you 1 year, 2 years or 5 years. Whats the value of £500 got to do with anything ?

Sorry that should have been £250 basically the money you spent and what that money would be worth to you sitting in
a bank account, to be honest its not worth thinking about but if I hadn't mentioned it somebody would have pulled me on it.
Every pound you spend on your business has an added value in what it would have earned you in interest should you have
not needed to spend it.
Not really worth thinking about in our line of work but big businesses think about it all the time that's why some take forever
to pay their bills.
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: Dave Willis on October 10, 2015, 05:35:41 pm
This is my accountants break down.

Motoring expenses           2502
Small tool replacement      775
Telephone                                 192
Use of home as an office   156
PL insurance                             130
Stationary                                    66
Protective clothing               457
Depreciation                           2097
Fees                                                301

Plus the accountants fees, no advertising other than website hosting.

I'd love to know what you have that depreciates £2097 in a year.

The van I guess That's what I pay them for  ;D
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: Walter Mitty on October 10, 2015, 06:18:16 pm
I was going to put £2500 as well
Dam it

Fuel and repairs to van £1-3k
Public liability £100
Equipment £1k
Water £ 1k
Clothing , gloves, shoes  etc £250
Advertising

It soon adds up .

But all these are vary diverse between us all .

Indeed the expenses can be diverse.  Some years I won't spend a penny on work clothing.  Other years I might buy enough for two or three years if I see a good deal.
Same with poles.  I will go on for a while replacing poles and spending money on them.  At the moment, I am repairing old poles from my graveyard, glueing clamps, sawing ends off poles to re-clamp, removing threads from the ends and making repairs.  I reckon I've got so many old bits and pieces of poles, they may well last me a couple of years.  A few hours work on a stormy day can save me a fair bit of money.  For pity's sake, I've even got an ancient 15ft Ionics glass pole which will do for some jobs at a push.
In the past, I've just bought new poles.
My two work fleeces I've had for several years.  They aren't used much - just in the harshest weather.
However, some years I may end up buying lots of clothing and a more expensive pole or two, replace broken hose reels etc.
It fluctuates wildly.
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: Jonny 87 on October 10, 2015, 08:43:10 pm
This is my accountants break down.

Motoring expenses           2502
Small tool replacement      775
Telephone                                 192
Use of home as an office   156
PL insurance                             130
Stationary                                    66
Protective clothing               457
Depreciation                           2097
Fees                                                301

Plus the accountants fees, no advertising other than website hosting.

I'd love to know what you have that depreciates £2097 in a year.

The van I guess That's what I pay them for  ;D

I'm the exact same as you Dave. Just under £6k every year and a sole trader, others local to me also seem to be the same from what I see. Having an accountant has saved me a lot of headaches and time too.

Seank you flipping don't half like to complicate things. lol.
If £2500 is your "true" expenses , what does your tax return say?

Surely £2,500 would only cover your work vehicle, and even that is bare minimum. Fuel,tax,insurance,mot/servicing/repairs.
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: 8weekly on October 10, 2015, 09:03:29 pm
This is my accountants break down.

Motoring expenses           2502
Small tool replacement      775
Telephone                                 192
Use of home as an office   156
PL insurance                             130
Stationary                                    66
Protective clothing               457
Depreciation                           2097
Fees                                                301

Plus the accountants fees, no advertising other than website hosting.

I'd love to know what you have that depreciates £2097 in a year.

The van I guess That's what I pay them for  ;D

I'm the exact same as you Dave. Just under £6k every year and a sole trader, others local to me also seem to be the same from what I see. Having an accountant has saved me a lot of headaches and time too.

Seank you flipping don't half like to complicate things. lol.
If £2500 is your "true" expenses , what does your tax return say?

Surely £2,500 would only cover your work vehicle, and even that is bare minimum. Fuel,tax,insurance,mot/servicing/repairs.
I can only assume he puts that on his tax return otherwise if he puts anything else it's tax fraud isn't it?
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: KS Cleaning on October 11, 2015, 01:53:05 am
It is tax returns but based on my software - please explain why it would be a different figure - I don't understand  ???
Obviously depreciation isn't money actually spent.
Home as office wouldn't be a business cost as such, it would be something you could claim on to reduce your tax bill
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: Jonny 87 on October 11, 2015, 09:22:33 am
This is my accountants break down.

Motoring expenses           2502
Small tool replacement      775
Telephone                                 192
Use of home as an office   156
PL insurance                             130
Stationary                                    66
Protective clothing               457
Depreciation                           2097
Fees                                                301

Plus the accountants fees, no advertising other than website hosting.

I'd love to know what you have that depreciates £2097 in a year.

The van I guess That's what I pay them for  ;D

I'm the exact same as you Dave. Just under £6k every year and a sole trader, others local to me also seem to be the same from what I see. Having an accountant has saved me a lot of headaches and time too.

Seank you flipping don't half like to complicate things. lol.
If £2500 is your "true" expenses , what does your tax return say?

Surely £2,500 would only cover your work vehicle, and even that is bare minimum. Fuel,tax,insurance,mot/servicing/repairs.
I can only assume he puts that on his tax return otherwise if he puts anything else it's tax fraud isn't it?

That's my thoughts too.

Sounds like a big tax bill to me with such little expenses.

I've heard people before say that for a usual sole trader your expenses should be about 20% of your turn over. Any more than that and you could make some adjustments to be more tax "efficient".

Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: Mike #1 on October 11, 2015, 11:25:28 am
Dave what is the depreciation and how come over 2 grand .

The figures for accounts on CP is different to what my accountant puts down as he puts additional expenses down that I don't know to claim for and percentages of certain things
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: 8weekly on October 11, 2015, 09:07:10 pm
My vehicle costs alone in 2013/14 were £2,770. I bought it in 2011 so those are just fuel, insurance, tax and maintenance costs. Seriously Sean, you need to fire your accountant or take the van out for a spin once in a while.  ;D
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: SeanK on October 11, 2015, 11:12:21 pm
My vehicle costs alone in 2013/14 were £2,770. I bought it in 2011 so those are just fuel, insurance, tax and maintenance costs. Seriously Sean, you need to fire your accountant or take the van out for a spin once in a while.  ;D

£2770 for fuel, tax, insurance and maintenance costs, do you actually clean any windows between all that driving. ::)roll
My fuel cost £400 yearly my insurance £320 yearly and tax £220 and have spent about £600 on maintenance in about 8 years and around 10000 miles of driving.

Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: Walter Mitty on October 11, 2015, 11:20:55 pm
My vehicle costs alone in 2013/14 were £2,770. I bought it in 2011 so those are just fuel, insurance, tax and maintenance costs. Seriously Sean, you need to fire your accountant or take the van out for a spin once in a while.  ;D

£2770 for fuel, tax, insurance and maintenance costs, do you actually clean any windows between all that driving. ::)roll
My fuel cost £400 yearly my insurance £320 yearly and tax £220 and have spent about £600 on maintenance in about 8 years and around 10000 miles of driving.

You got a trolley being pulled by a moped?
Title: Re: Business costs?
Post by: SeanK on October 11, 2015, 11:32:19 pm
My vehicle costs alone in 2013/14 were £2,770. I bought it in 2011 so those are just fuel, insurance, tax and maintenance costs. Seriously Sean, you need to fire your accountant or take the van out for a spin once in a while.  ;D

£2770 for fuel, tax, insurance and maintenance costs, do you actually clean any windows between all that driving. ::)roll
My fuel cost £400 yearly my insurance £320 yearly and tax £220 and have spent about £600 on maintenance in about 8 years and around 10000 miles of driving.

You got a trolley being pulled by a moped?

For the mileage I do it would make sense, tomorrow will be a big mileage day for me 2 miles to the job and 2 miles back. ;D