Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: davetherave on May 09, 2006, 08:18:17 pm
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im new to window cleaning and i wanted to know about any advice anyone can give me regarding ladder safety. one question i have is do you rest the ladder above the top of the window and then reach through the rungs to get at the glass. or do you rest the ladder underneath the window, below the sill or even on the sill. Or, do you place the ladder to the side of the window and reach across. I guess it all depends on the type and size of the window you are cleaning but putting the ladder just underneath the window sill sounds kind of dangerous to me, wouldn't the ladders slip out from under you as you reach upwards. I don't know if this question is stupid but like i said im new to window cleaning and i don't fancy taking a fall to find out .
another question i have is do all you other window cleaners rest your ladders against gutters say for example if you have to go over a garage roof. i cleaned my first couple of houses on the weekend and i just rested the ladder aganist the plastic gutter but i doubt this does the gutter much good
any other advice regarding ladders would be appreciated
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hi dave,
the main thing with ladders is that if you don't feel comfortable doing a lift then either re foot it slightly or don't do that pitch at all.
confidence will come the more time you spend working with ladders so take your time. remember you will get quicker the longer you stay doing it so don't get too dispondent when jobs seem to bet taking for ever.
as far as going over flat roofs and leaning the ladder against gutters goes, these plastic gutters are a lot stronger than you think, just place it against it gently and up you go.
shine on!
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do not rest your ladders against the gutter,you could have a nasty accident,i would look at the health and safety about using ladders this will help you regards rob
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Ooh well done.
First two posts didn't involve telling him to spend £1000 and be sub-standard. ;D
I'll deal with this guys..... ;)
Hi Dave.
Welcome to the forum, they tell you all about me in due course!
It really depends on the window.
You may do 3 or 4 windows all differently on the same house.
If it's a tall window(not the height from the ground), then you'll need to put it well above the sill, and maybe the bottom will be a bit through the rungs, but it's better than stretching.
I've got a couple of tall narrow windows where I have to do them from the side, but this is unusual.
If it's not tall, then put it below the sill.
It's easier when you can do this, as you've got nothing in the way of giving the sill a good wipe.
As far as gutters go, depends if they feel strong.
Stand up straight as you walk up and you won't be pushing into them with so much weight....you won't topple over backwards, don't worry!
That's the important bits, anything else...just post some more questions. ;)
Cheers, Rog. (see? I have my uses...)
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Hi Dave
Follow this link on ladder saftey.
http://www.nfmwgc.com/health_safety.htm
Roy
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First and foremost make sure you have some kind of ladder stabilty device. There are plenty available, I myself use the rojak ladder stopper - essential piece of kit IMO. You then need to make sure that the angle of the ladder is correct, most ladders now have a sticker on the side which allow you to see if it is at the right angle, but as a rule of thumb the distance from the ground to the top of the ladder should be 4 times the distance from the wall to the base of the ladder ie. the ladder should be at an angle of 75 degrees. Eg height = 4m therefore distance from wall to ladder feet = 1m.
As far as where to rest the ladder goes, as you say, it does depend on the type of window. Personally, I try to always place my ladder tight underneath the sill (I never place my ladder on upvc sills, its too slippery). As long as you are not too short, and the window is not on some victorian country house, you should reach the top easily. You can place on sills, but you will need ladder mits or something similar. Just a small tip when placing ladders under wider windows, I place them slightly to the left of central, as I am right handed, it allows me to clean on my left hand side a little easier, as I will have a longer reach on the right side anyway.
To get over gutters I would recommend a ladder stand off, this will allow you to get over the gutters without causing and damage to the gutter, or yourself! ;)
As long as you follow basic guidelines, and have some common sense you should stay safe. "If you don't feel safe, then don't do it"
Hope this has helped, I have only been cleaning a year, but have picked up some valueable tips, from here and in my own experience. If I've missed something out, I'm sure that others here will help.
Simon
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Hi Dave
Follow this link on ladder saftey.
http://www.nfmwgc.com/health_safety.htm
Roy
Why didn't I post that, would have been a lot less work on my fingers! ;D
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ladder mitts are brilliant - on the rare occasion I use ladders I wouldn't be without them and when I was on ladders all the time they gave that non-slip feel at the top of the ladder. (Also ladder feet as well)
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Squeeky
I cant believe you are giving advice about resting ladders on gutters ,that is bang out of order.
It may be ok for you but in my eyes it is a big no no.
By resting ladders on guttering you are asking for big trouble.
If you are stepping off a ladder at height the ladder MUST be securely fixed by tying the ladders off at the top.
I would not advise especially stepping off a ladder to go up a tiled roof without the use of a roof ladder.
Dave
it sounds like you are very inexperienced in ladder use, i would suggest you go on a ladder safety course and spend a few days with someone who is competent in ladder use.
I know the fwc have a ladder saftey video called walk up walk down which maybe worth a look.
I will try to find you some links later, in the mean time be very carefull and dont take ladders for granted.
As some have already said you must use ladder stability devices ,ladder mitts and a rojak ladder stopper at the minimum.
Dave
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good advice dave
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http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg402.pdf
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http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg405.pdf
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If you are stepping off a ladder at height the ladder MUST be securely fixed by tying the ladders off at the top.
Oh come Dave!
It's easy for you to say that now you don't use them.
Can you honestly tell me you stopped to tie ladders all the time, I bet you didn't. ;)
You'd never get much done.
As long as you're carful and don't rush it shouldn't be a worry.
I've never had the slightest ladder "moment" with gutters.
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http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/experience/ladders.htm
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Hi Dave and welcome to the forum...
By and large you aim to rest the ladder below the sill, on the sill can cause damage, and on UPVC it is also very easy for it to slip sideways on you too.
Andthe same can go for resting your ladders on gutters too, it really isn't to be recommended, if you can find a spot without gutters, or extend the ladder higher and lean it against the side of the house so that as you climb up you only have to step directly onto the flat roof, though that too has it's inherent risks!
Read the info on t he link that Roy has put up there, you will learn a lot from that.
Roger as usual [keep reading posts on this forum and you will see just what I mean] has to take a dig at WFP by making an incorrect statement.
Until he mentioned it, it was just a post about the correct way to use a ladder!
You will I've no doubt have by now read many of the posts on here about WFP.
Take in what you read and save it up for later, but for now learn your craft the traditional way, it gives you by far the best grounding in window cleaning.
But do consider upgrading to WFP at some point in the future...because it IS the FUTURE!
Try and find someone to show you one to one how to use a ladder safely, how to extend it and lower it.
Newbies can cling to them like limpets and gibber with fear when they need to bounce it off the wall slightly so they can lift and lower the extension!
But keep asking your questions on the forum, some will keep telling you to go WFP but others will also do their level best to answer the questions you pose.
Squeaky is our resident, rabid WFP hater and will always manage to introduce a certain level of incomprehension into the WFP debate....and even when there isn't a debate he'll always amuse us in some manner with his flat earth mentality on the merits [or lack of them in Squeaks opinion] on WFP;D
Us moderators [myself and Tosh] would not dream of fanning the flames of his obsession....we leave that to the other forum members 8)
Enjoy the forum, we all hope we can help in any way we can ;)
Ian
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some will keep telling you to go WFP but others will also do their level best to answer the questions you pose.
Well there's the first.... ;D
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Here is a list of ladder safety days ,they are all free there may be one near you.
Height aware events
North West
May 11 Manchester, NHF Offices Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
May 12 Warrington Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
June 22 Manchester United Football Ground Height Aware Safety and Health
Awareness Day (SHAD)
June 28 Cheshire and North Staffs Gas Forum Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
June 29 Holiday Inn, Haydock Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
Yorkshire and North East
May 23 Newcastle-Upon-Tyne Height Aware Safety and Health Awareness Day (SHAD)
May 25 Sheffield Height Aware SHAD
May 25 Leeds Height Aware SHAD
June 1 Leeds Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
June w/c 5 Sheffield Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
June 7 Newcastle-Upon Tyne Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
Scotland
May 23 Fife, Corus Hotel, North Queensferry Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
May 24 Aberdeen, Woodhill House Council Chamber Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
June 6 Livingston Height Aware Safety and Health Awareness Day (SHAD)
June 14 Airdrie, Lanarkshire - Excelsior Stadium Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
Wales and South West
June 1 Brecon Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
June 6 Wrexham Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
June 8 SW Wales, Ina Bearngs Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
June 15 Barry Workshop at Dow Corning
June 20 Angelsey Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
June 27 Newport, Holiday Inn Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
South East
June 7 (TBC) Brighton Race Course Height Aware Safety and Health Awareness Day (SHAD)
June 13 Sandown Race Course HM Revenue & Customs Advice Day
June w/c 19 or 26 Fontwell Racecourse, Sussex Height Aware SHAD
London
June 13 London, Kensington Town Hall Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
June 21 Tottenham Football Ground Height Aware Safety and Health Awareness Day (SHAD)
June 27 Charlton Football Ground Height Aware SHAD
Midlands
June 20 Stevenage Football Ground Height Aware Safety and Health Awareness Day (SHAD)
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Acually Rog, although you are correct in that most of us ignore the tying off of the ladder to nip over a garage roof, Dave is also correct in that it is foolish to recommend ignoring correct procedure on the use of ladders.
you may not as yet have had the ladder fly out from you on gutters, but resting ladders on flexing, slippery gutters is high risk.
And you wonder why Health & Safety are clamping down further and further on the use of ladders when even experienced pro's like yourself talk glibly of using ladders in a dangerous manner.
When you step off a ladder you know it should be tied in some manner, slap on wrist for saying otherwise!
Ian
And quoting me out of context again Rog?
Tut tut, where in my reply did I tell him to forego using ladders?
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If you are stepping off a ladder at height the ladder MUST be securely fixed by tying the ladders off at the top.
Oh come Dave!
It's easy for you to say that now you don't use them.
Can you honestly tell me you stopped to tie ladders all the time, I bet you didn't. ;)
You'd never get much done.
As long as you're carful and don't rush it shouldn't be a worry.
I've never had the slightest ladder "moment" with gutters.
Well squeeky i can see that , that is why you are still here giving bad advice and trying to be constantly contraversial. I reccommended tying the ladders off when ascending a roof and certainly if you are daft enough to step off a ladder from a gutter onto a sloping roof.
By climbing a ladder you could be the next statistic so get it right when giving advice
Here are some stats from the hse site.
Have a good look they are all not like superman unlike you.
Falls are the biggest cause of deaths in Britain’s workplaces. 53 people died in 2004/5. On top of this, nearly 3,800 suffered major injury such as broken bones or fractured skulls. You don’t have to fall far to be hurt, 7 deaths and 2247 major injuries were from a fall from below head height. It’s easy to see why HSE has made reducing the number of falls from height a priority.
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Dave
I am sorry for bombarding you with information overload and a lot of links, but this subject is close to my heart.
Here is another link aimed specificly at window cleaning.
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf
Dave
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Wales and South West
June 1 Brecon Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
June 6 Wrexham Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
June 8 SW Wales, Ina Bearngs Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
June 15 Barry Workshop at Dow Corning
June 20 Angelsey Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
June 27 Newport, Holiday Inn Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting'
I see the Southwest is being ignored again just like on the National Weather reports! :)
JohnL
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yes thats what i thought ,i wouldn't have minded going on one.
Where are you based
Dave
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wheres the cheapest place to get a Rojak system from?
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wheres the cheapest place to get a Rojak system from?
They do them at www.soapnational.co.uk
I'm thinking about getting one. They sell 18" width stoppers and and 24" ones. Does anyone know if it is safer to get the 24" one?
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wheres the cheapest place to get a Rojak system from?
They do them at www.soapnational.co.uk
I'm thinking about getting one. They sell 18" width stoppers and and 24" ones. Does anyone know if it is safer to get the 24" one?
they are basically the same, safety wise.
But 24" just gives you a wider mat to foot your ladders on
Mines 18", that's heavy enough to lug around, along with everything else!
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I bought some ladder mitts recently and they are very good - i wouldnt used the ladder without the now!
I think ill get one of those Rojak things as im fed up with the sand bag!
DC
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I might go for one of these ladder "'ave it away" days; and if they are free I might have two!!
Can't find Cheshire and North Staffs Gas Forum Height Aware 'Breakfast Meeting' on the Search Engine.
Any further clues, anyone?
Baldeagle in Staffordshire
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Dave
yes thats what i thought ,i wouldn't have minded going on one.
Where are you based
Dave
mid way between Minehead, Taunton & Bridgewater on the coast where the Quantocks fall into the sea
:)
JohnL
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thanks guys for the advice its much appreciated . hopefully i wont break my neck now this weekend
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If i was you Dave, i'd start saving up a few pennies and invest in an 'A' frame ladder. The ladder tapers in at the top to a point where there is a rubber block for stability. They are absolutely brilliant and in my opinion you can access most windows far quicker than with a normal ladder.
Cheapest place i found them is www.midlandladders.co.uk
Hope this helps,
Sunshine
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It's www.midlandladders.com
;D
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Hi all I know I am new to the foram but shorly we should be looking to give help on being a pro and being safe. It is against H&S to roof walk even if it is low. My brother fell from a garage roof broken limbs cost in pain reputation and loss of earnining and your life is worth more than a couple of quid I will not clean windows for people who want me to risk a fall or a fine, if your inexperienced at ladders dont chance it, access to flat roof, remeber the ladder has to be 1 metre above the roof dont lean the ladder against the gutter use a ladder- stay under the gutter against the facia board or wall. rojaks are the dogs and mitts are a must if you are new to ladders the quickest way is the safest way your a long time dead. the rojack works on surface area therfore as long as the ground is resonably even the 24 is better But I find the 18 is good for doubles but not triples its not wide enough.
I can recomend wfps but you should still know how to use a ladder safely good idea to take one of those courses be lucky but best be safe
best regards grant
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Most of Squeekys comments are tongue In cheek I personally find them quite amusing, He has made one comment about resting a ladder on a gutter and gets his head bitten off ??? everyone works differently people can only be informed of the risks then the choice is down to the individual, I have got at least 3 jobs where I have to rest my ladder on a plastic gutter to get onto flat roofs with these jobs I always find the gutter joint then place the ladder rung in between the clips so it stops any sideways slip I dont intend using my pole on them because of the angle and the fact that on two of them Im up one side then down the other to get into the back garden I could be ruthless and ditch the jobs now I'm wfp but I'd rather not, I'm sure dave will take on such jobs as being a newbie he'll take what he can, also possibly not having much confidence he'll struggle to say no too customers. I do agree that they are a dangerous part of the job though.
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Chris
A newby was asking for advice in fact a complete novice ,if someone was giving advice would that same person accept responsibility in the event of an accident.
It is ok telling someone how you would do it but dont advise others to do the same if it is clearly a breach of current safety practices and the wahd.
I think we all have a responsibility to give correct and safe advise to complete novices.
It was not tongue in cheek ,it was completely the wrong advise.
I have seen gutters break under the weight of a ladder and when it happens to you, it will make your heart skip a beat.
If people use bad ladder practice well that is up to them but please dont encourage others to do the same. just keep it to yourself
Dave
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Most of Squeekys comments are tongue In cheek I personally find them quite amusing, He has made one comment about resting a ladder on a gutter and gets his head bitten off ???
Too right, I'm going to get it for the slightest thing these days. :-\
Alright, so it may not conform to your wfp heavy forum, but I took the time to write quite a long post which I hoped would be helpful.
I thought it was nice to see someone learning the trade, and I tried to encourage him, rather than telling him it was too dangerous suddenly after 100's of years.
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Squeeky
You clearly stated bad practice, i would give the same advice wether i was using ladders or wfp, in fact as much as i hate to i still have cause to use my ladders on occasions ,so this is nothing to do with wfp.
IT IS ABOUT SAFE USE OF LADDERS, AND NOTHING TO DO WITH WFP.
It has always been dangerous , but we are much more aware these days of the dangers of ladder use.
When i first started i did not have all this info available at my fingertips and now i have it has certainly made me sit up and take more care.
I think the dangers should be pointed to all newcomers especially, then after the correct advise they can choose to take it in or ignore that is down to the individual.
your intentions may have been good, but you should keep bad ladder practice to yourself.
Nothing personal
Dave
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Hi squeeky
Im not part of the wfp heavey forum I ve been working on ladders most of of my life and its not suddenly dangerous after a hundred yars it always was I used to claen windows 10 mts high over spiked rails when my brother pointed out in one of his philasophic moments (as he smoked a fAg because that wont kill him, right) that we were risking our lives or to be more correct I was, he only used the double, for just 50p per window at the time. I went out and got a wfp its quicker its safer risk your life if you like but not that of others esp newbies Keep it simple keep it safe theres enough work out there thats safe you dont need the other stuff most of my customers would rather I mist the odd widow if it can,t be cleaned safely than not have any cleaned or look for another window cleaner
but Im not looking to knock anyone and your comments are often helpful best regards grant
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wheres the cheapest place to get a Rojak system from?
They do them at www.soapnational.co.uk
I'm thinking about getting one. They sell 18" width stoppers and and 24" ones. Does anyone know if it is safer to get the 24" one?
Best to check with the guy at Soap National (David I think) but I think you would only need the larger Rojak for point ladders as they have splayed ends.
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Dave the ladder mat is a cheaper allternative if your on a tight budget and also handy for uneven ground.
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You could do worse than look on the HSE website they have some free downloads on ladder safety and also some toolbox talk items which may be helpful. If you have any difficulties just drop me a mail and I can mail them on to you as I keep them on my library file.