Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Stoots on September 19, 2015, 05:58:48 pm
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Yes im a noob, just been on a course and was recommended to use microsplitters as prespray with an acid rinse in the tank.
But read a lot on here using detergents in the tank which i was led to believe is not the best way
and to rinse with clean water alone if possible
so whats best? or is it a case of both work
looking at buying some chems and just want to get a good general range that i can use safely as im a bit concerned now about shrinkage or browning occuring
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Use a good prespray appropriate to the soil conditions and acid rinse in your tank. It's not about detergents in your tank, which I frown upon, personally, it's more about ph and an acid rinse is the best of all options if you want to be on the safe side.
Simon
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Thats pretty much what i was told to try to neutrilise the ph with an acid rinse and do most of the work with the pre spray/agitation
but have read a lot of info to the contrary
i think i will go this route just for peace of mind
also is the acid rinse good as a spotter for water based stains?
i need a few basic spotting chems also but the range is vast
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If you use an acid rinse then you can use any prespray regardless of ph.
A prespray should not do some, but all of the work, so Powerburst, Shockwave, Pure Clean, Restore, SPM
Just get yourself a range of spotters and see which ones you like.
Citrus Gel, solvall, solvex, browning prescription, chemspec browning / coffee stain remover, Extreme tea & coffee, gum-it-off etc.
Simon
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Simon has it spot on.
We have always used an acid rinse even if using a micro-splitter.
There are some products that are used as rinses but are too high ph in my opinion to be used all the time.
As long as you uses a good company for your cleaning products you wont go to far wrong (alltec prochem chemspec or solutions).
Shrinkage or browning is not about the products you use but the way they are used.
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thanks guys, just want to do whats safest really.
im just going to order the solutions sample pack
http://www.worldofclean.co.uk/solution-special-sample-pack.html
and an acid rinse of course
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You wont go too far wrong with the sample pack some good products.
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I have tried nearly everything going,....detergents,microsplitters in tank detergents, acid rinse, water only. I still keep coming back to the same products time and time again.
Pureclean (sometimes boosted with something oxy or some solvent booster.) I use this on 90% of my work.
And Powerburst for mingers.
I rinse both with an acid rinse like final faze (which is simply an acid) Prochems fib and fab is also a detergent and also less economical.
I use other products but they are usually problem solvers.
Give it all ago and you will find the right products for you and your main types of work, whatever that turns out to be. Detergents are not the enemy but are better used as a prespray as they get a longer contact time so can do their work.
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thanks guys, just want to do whats safest really.
im just going to order the solutions sample pack
http://www.worldofclean.co.uk/solution-special-sample-pack.html
and an acid rinse of course
Final Phase, is an acid rinse included in the pack, its dilution rates are excellent, making it very economical. Also,keeps your pump, hoses and jets nice and clean ;)
If you want what I call, 'the smell factor,' get some Clean Cotton deodoriser from John Kelly. Adding a nice smell to your cleaning adds an extra sense of things being nice and clean.
http://www.restormate.co.uk/epages/15094.sf/en_GB/?ObjectID=7983250
Simon
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what course were you on that recommended ' microsplitter ' ... let me guess :-X
Microsplitter is a nonsence made up word ( im sick of saying that )
Its cleaning with a single detergent ingredient as oppose to cleaning with a mix of detergent ingredients .
If they are recommending its use its because its so basic , its cheap to produce hence there is more profit for them in selling it to you .
If i was to recommend an allround starter product it would be Alltec citrus prespray and Alltec ultimate master powder in tank as ' rince '
Not because i favour Alltec and there are similar products from restormate and others ... but because they are idiot proof and u can do no damage while obtaining a top result .
The ultimate master will give great results in all situations ... and the citrus prespray can be used on upholstery , traffic lanes or as a spotter ., and it smells good to the customer and will only do u good if you lick it .
Pick up some low odour white spirit to remove , ' little black spots ' or makeup or most things .
Those three products will cover every situation u will come accross for now .
After that you can learn and experiment with advanced stain removing products and problem solvers .
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Cheers John, already ordered the sample pack above but i get what you are saying keep it simple and yes i suppose a lot of it is marketting like most things so need to read between the lines.
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Altec do a FREE sample pack. Might be worth getting hold of too. I did and like some of their products. Ultimate master is good, but tend to use it as a prespray. I still keep coming back to my old favorites though.
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This is why I like this site!!!
People can say what they like without having to arse lick 1 certain supplier.
If you like cleans mart, alltec , chemspec, prochem , restore mate solutions you can say it without moderators telling you "this is not a platform for other suppliers"
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Yes im a noob, just been on a course and was recommended to use microsplitters as prespray with an acid rinse in the tank.
But read a lot on here using detergents in the tank which i was led to believe is not the best way
and to rinse with clean water alone if possible
so whats best? or is it a case of both work
looking at buying some chems and just want to get a good general range that i can use safely as im a bit concerned now about shrinkage or browning occuring
Hi Adam, you should also check out colloidal chemistry a real alternative to toxic chemical cleaners, also known as micelles based cleaners that will reduce the surface tension of water 50 to 100% more than most typical carpet cleaning detergents can, reduced surface tension leads to faster cleaning. micelles break the bonds that hold dirt and oils to a surface and actually denatures organic materials, one of the reasons they are the cleaner of choice for many professional carpet and upholstery cleaners who must deal with odour causing organics such as urine and others. to make an informed decision its worth taking the time to google colloidal chemistry or micelles based carpet cleaners, you will find reputable suppliers in the UK who can offer you further information on these safe and effective solutions for cleaning carpet,upholstery, and leather.
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Tadgh , a micelle is a colloidial aggregate formed by any detergent associated surfactant at its particular CMC value .
How is the plant derived detergent you push different in behavour .
From my own looking around you are probably refering to palm oil derived Microemulsion ?
If so , just call it Microemulsion .
Calling it colloidial ... or Micelle is meaning less and could be refering to any detergent imo .
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Tadgh , a micelle is a colloidial aggregate formed by any detergent associated surfactant at its particular CMC value .
How is the plant derived detergent you push different in behavour .
From my own looking around you are probably refering to palm oil derived Microemulsion ?
If so , just call it Microemulsion .
Calling it colloidial ... or Micelle is meaning less and could be refering to any detergent imo .
Hi John, you refer to i push which makes me smile really as i have put forward to Adam another option which is worth checking out thats all, to be honest and you can trust me on this it pays to be open minded and receptive to newer technologies entering into our industry, i could share plenty of other safe and effective technologies which are available but unfortunately not in the UK yet, but its only a matter of time and when you will hear about them John keep an open mind and try them out for yourself you might be pleasantly surprised.
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Thanks I will have a look.
Colloidial was mentioned to us on the course but was said to have a longer dwell time of 30 mins required hence why it was dismissed but apparently are really good.
I might have a look sometime in the future but for now have enough to be going on with
Thanks
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Alright Adam
The sample pack you have ordered will have some in it, M Power. Give it a whirl.
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You need to get out with a carpet cleaner and see chemicals usage in the real world, spend a day with good carpet cleaner chatting away as you clean will give you more knowledge than any course or asking a 100 questions here.
What about high Ph prespraying removing protector? And thinking that you can use any pre-spray as long as you rinse it off with a acid is assuming High Ph does not damage fibres in the short amount of time it is on the carpets, which we don't know as we can only visually inspect the carpet.
Plus what if we don't rinse it all out..... what if we leave the prespray behind.?
The biggest mistake I see with beginners (based on the helpers I have had) is cleaning a carpet but missing bits, they forget where they have cleaned and do areas twice or miss bits. They will leave areas of carpet with prespray not rinsed off.
I use pure clean 90% of the time and rinse off with a weaker solution of F90.
I could type all day, this is why it's best to talk to a carpet cleaner, what about over wetting the carpet because you have not removed all the dirt...... so need to re-apply the prespray then rinse again? would a detergent have help remove the dirt so a second application of pre-spray then rinse wasn't necessarily ?
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Thanks I will have a look.
Colloidial was mentioned to us on the course but was said to have a longer dwell time of 30 mins required hence why it was dismissed but apparently are really good.
I might have a look sometime in the future but for now have enough to be going on with
Thanks
Hi Adam, who ever told you about needing 30 mins dwell time does not understand colloidal chemistry, to make an informed decision and find out all the facts you probably need to look into it in more detail for yourself, i would also take Mikes advice and try and get yourself out with a professional carpet cleaner.
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Dont make dwell time an issue anyway. The time you have presprayed and agitated it, the time setting up your porty is ample dwell. Good on light/med soiling, mingers get something stronger down though :)
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Tadgh, carpet is not same as flat surface. On the other channel you will hear that, that you need dwel time, so users of mpower says that.
SteveAllan, what you say will work but not for full houses, you dont spray an agitate all carpets as not only impossible by techical reason but also prespray will dry.
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Tadgh, carpet is not same as flat surface. On the other channel you will hear that, that you need dwel time, so users of mpower says that.
SteveAllan, what you say will work but not for full houses, you dont spray an agitate all carpets as not only impossible by techical reason but also prespray will dry.
Hi Radek, micelles can't differenciate between fibers or flat surfaces they just go straight to work and do what they are supposed to break down soils safely and effectively.
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Tadgh , you are back to calling it micelles and colloids without addressing the question i put to you regarding the fact that all detergent surfactants produce micelles and colloids.
I would have more respect for you if you just answered like this . :)
"John , i dont really understand the chemistry involved and i couldnt be arsed to spend time researching it .
Im really only here to sell this plant detergent to the Brits .
Carpet cleaning ? .... which products give the best results ? I couldnt care less about any of that Shiitte .
Tadgh "
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Works fine on whole houses Rad, just a different working order. Didn't mention spraying whole house.
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Of course, but on the surface they much easier to reach dirt while on the fabric they need a time for it and aggitation.
And yes, they need much more time to take action comparing to other products.
Every product has its own place, I also have it as handy and cheap somethimes but using it on every day task shows that the user has been indoctrinated by the seller lol
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Tadgh , you are back to calling it micelles and colloids without addressing the question i put to you regarding the fact that all detergent surfactants produce micelles and colloids.
I would have more respect for you if you just answered like this . :)
"John , i dont really understand the chemistry involved and i couldnt be arsed to spend time researching it .
Im really only here to sell this plant detergent to the Brits .
Carpet cleaning ? .... which products give the best results ? I couldnt care less about any of that Shiitte .
Tadgh "
John, i have said many a time on here that i don't have a background in chemistry, i am not looking for respect from anyone, i have been using colloidal chemistry now for 13 years and it has never left me down, unlike the traditional harsh and aggressive chemical cleaners which i had been using for many years previous and did cause me plenty of grief on many occasions, but thats all in the past now i have found a more effective technology which i know will be huge in our industry, but i will always stand behind colloidal chemistry as i said it had never left me down.
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But tadgh , you make sweeping statements regarding what products are toxic or non toxic , harmfull to surfaces or not , old technology or new technology .
Only someone with a background or knowledge in chemistry would be in a position to advise others on these subjests .
It dosnt take a background in chemistry to look up the point i was making about colloids and micelles not being exclusive to your plant detergent but is relevent to any detergent surfactant.
Just any quick google on the subject explains it .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_micelle_concentration
http://www.surface-tension.org/news/58.html
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Hi Guys
Worth remembering that pH is a logarithmic scale which means that pH 10 is 10 times more alkaline than pH 9.
Also many detergents are buffered, that is they have a chemical which keeps them at their optimum pH but makes it much more difficult to neutralise.
Basically putting a bit of highish pH acid in your tank is not going to make much difference and is unlikely to neutralise the alkaline pre spray.
It is far better to thoroughly rinse out the pre spray and not have any detergent or 'microsplitter' in the rinse.
Also worth remembering that microsplitter is a made up non scientific word.
As a newbie experiment with different products from different suppliers bearing in mind that the higher the pH the better the likely cleaning but the more chance of colour run or fibre damage in the case of wool. So basically clean with the lowest pH which gives a good result but remember customers want clean carpets not a lot of technical mumbo jumbo!
There is an awful lot of pseudo science in this industry and you need to be able to see the wood from the trees.
Cheers
Doug
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But tadgh , you make sweeping statements regarding what products are toxic or non toxic , harmfull to surfaces or not , old technology or new technology .
Only someone with a background or knowledge in chemistry would be in a position to advise others on these subjests .
It dosnt take a background in chemistry to look up the point i was making about colloids and micelles not being exclusive to your plant detergent but is relevent to any detergent surfactant.
Just any quick google on the subject explains it .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_micelle_concentration
http://www.surface-tension.org/news/58.html
John, i think you are just acting stupid now, only someone with a background or knowledge in chemistry would be in a position to advise others on the harmful effects of toxic and aggressive cleaning chemicals, that is the biggest load of crap i have heard in a longtime, just goes to show what some people do and don't know about the cleaning industry.
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What's the problem with the name microsplitters? Look at 'ultimate master' sounds like a Dutch domamatrix not a cleaning chemical,
Plus to agree with Doug, removing a prepray is alway preferable to neutralising it.
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But tadgh , you make sweeping statements regarding what products are toxic or non toxic , harmfull to surfaces or not , old technology or new technology .
Only someone with a background or knowledge in chemistry would be in a position to advise others on these subjests .
It dosnt take a background in chemistry to look up the point i was making about colloids and micelles not being exclusive to your plant detergent but is relevent to any detergent surfactant.
Just any quick google on the subject explains it .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_micelle_concentration
http://www.surface-tension.org/news/58.html
John, i think you are just acting stupid now, only someone with a background or knowledge in chemistry would be in a position to advise others on the harmful effects of toxic and aggressive cleaning chemicals, that is the biggest load of crap i have heard in a longtime, just goes to show what some people do and don't know about the cleaning industry.
terms like harmfull , toxic , aggressive need to be defined properly , i remember u saying one of your tests for a products toxicity is to spray it into the air and see if it stings your eyes etc lol , try that with pepper , vinegar and a host of everyday products and they would be on your toxic ban list also .
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But tadgh , you make sweeping statements regarding what products are toxic or non toxic , harmfull to surfaces or not , old technology or new technology .
Only someone with a background or knowledge in chemistry would be in a position to advise others on these subjests .
It dosnt take a background in chemistry to look up the point i was making about colloids and micelles not being exclusive to your plant detergent but is relevent to any detergent surfactant.
Just any quick google on the subject explains it .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_micelle_concentration
http://www.surface-tension.org/news/58.html
John, i think you are just acting stupid now, only someone with a background or knowledge in chemistry would be in a position to advise others on the harmful effects of toxic and aggressive cleaning chemicals, that is the biggest load of crap i have heard in a longtime, just goes to show what some people do and don't know about the cleaning industry.
terms like harmfull , toxic , aggressive need to be defined properly , i remember u saying one of your tests for a products toxicity is to spray it into the air and see if it stings your eyes etc lol , try that with pepper , vinegar and a host of everyday products and they would be on your toxic ban list also .
Yes John i do have a ban list of ingredients which i prefer not to use, vinegar would be one of them along with the likes of sodium metasilicate,sodium hydroxide,sodium hypochlorite, and many others. Happy cleaning Tadgh
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Adam
When I started I was like you. Went on a course and listened and then got all confused. Then tried different presprays for this and rinses for that and then came to the conclusion that different carpet cleaners swear by their own products and because they have faith in them , and thus make them work.
I have tried different portables with heat, without heat and then had different carpets to clean with different spills on them and then got confused even more. Then one carpet cleaner says this acid rinse is cheaper than the other better known brand and you start off again. Then put a truckmount into the equation with a hydroforce and your head will spin.
So go to Alltec and take John's advice and get some citrus prespray and some ultimate master and take the citrus fabric prespray for your upholstery and then use that ultimate master as a rinse agent. That will cover you for nearly all that you will come up against. The fabric prespray will also shift draught marks and if you get a real minger you mix a stronger solution of the citrus prespray........simples. That way you keep one suppliers products in the clean and it's simple again.
The rest of it is navel gazing, all very interesting but diverts you from the original question.
I would take Simon's advice too Powerbust with Prochem's acid rinse or final phase would do in many situations.
If you still want to try different options then you can come and have a look in my garage as I have bottle, tins and cans of microsplitters and powders and ointments all trying to get past their sell by dates!!!!
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It all depends what you are cleaning .
Most of the carpets l clean are 80/20 wool or that kind and I've been using Mpower on them with great success . I have 15 kg of shockwave I haven't touched in 7 to 8 months .
I also use f90 and find that great as is DFc range , I've used ms & um as well and they work well so the conclusion I've come they all work so it all boils down to how you work
Ie what heat you have what vac and how powerful you extraction is what Agitation .
personally I like change and try to use a different one every few months then you can speak from experience which is far better than another persons opinion .
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Cheers guys i think i have a better idea of what im trying to achieve now rather than what chemicals to use
so basically the closer i stay to ph7 the better in terms of safety
but a more aggresive alkaline can be used on higher traffic areas
making sure to rinse out as much s possible or at least try to neutrilise with an acid rinse or a self neutrilising chemical
i was advised to nearly always use an acid rinse in case the carpet was already alkaline from a previous clean negating the need to do a wet test.
basically acid rinse everything and use the least aggressive chemical pre spray required and i wont go far wrong
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Always remember why you are there to get the carpet clean, the customer does'nt care about how safely you work they want a clean carpet, telling them......... "sorry I could'nt get your carpet clean but on the bright side I never went above Ph8" ....... will not go down well
You need to increase your knowledge as quickly as possible to allow you to use the correct chemical to get the carpet clean
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yes i understand that mike, ive had no problem getting carpets clean up until now but doesnt hurt to try to be cautious, last thing i want to do is have to pay out for a new carpet etc. that would be a bugger ;D
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basically acid rinse everything and use the least aggressive chemical pre spray required and i wont go far wrong
You're right, if you take that approach you will not go far wrong. Until you find a pre-spray you like, try one of the above, we all have our favourites. What you are looking for in a pre-spray is good soil release, a process known as saponification, (turning soil into water soluble soap) from there on it makes precious little difference what rinse agent you use as it has almost zero effect on the clean, so it might as well be an acidic rinse so that you leave the carpet on the safe side of the Ph scale.
Simon
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Something else to think about with regards to detergent in the tank versus pre-spray with plain water rinse.
Is there any real difference worth bothering about?
Pre-sprays are more concentrated than detergents mixed in a tank full of water.
In other words it could well be that:-
Pre-Spray + Rinse Water = Detergent + Tank Water.
Doug you are the chemist, what do you think?
Dave.
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When I was cleaning using portables I mainly used an in tank detergent. Formula 90 Powder or if Wool, Powdered One Clean. This gave excellent results on most carpets which didn't require a pre-spray. Usually used Enzall or One Clean Traffic Lane Cleaner as a pre-spray.
When I moved up to a truckmount Formula 90 Powder was again my main product in the stock tank, 1 scoop per litre of water and 3 gallons per hour on meter.
It sometimes hard for people to get their heads round how a tank detergent can clean so well when it is only in contact with the carpet for a few seconds, but believe me it produces outstanding results with no re-soiling issues at all.
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Well a big box of samples has arrived today from solutions.
I have a carpet and sofa clean tomorrow to experiment on :-X
quite scared now, i was happy slapping owt on before, bloody training course has made me more nervous lol
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What did you get in box
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You've got to remember, some training courses direct much of their tuition towards their own products. Many years ago just about all supplier led courses did this. Today the better courses do not do this, however they all have to teach by 'The Book'.
You use this information as you gain experience 'out in the field' and discover what works best for you, what to avoid and how far you can push things with a real 'minger' whether it is sythetic or 100% wool. Same things go for suites too, although a little extra care and caution is required. Before you know it, you will recognise what you are about to clean, and how to do it with confidence.
However don't expect other cleaners to always agree with each other, even those in the business for many years will have different ways of doing things.
Dave.
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Adam
Who course did you go on
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Just remember Adam
This is the only non biased forum.
Other forums are a platform for selling their products, with some devoted followers but some of them have shares in the business.
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Cleansmart course.
Solutions sample pack is good lots of confusion in a box.
Tried fusion8 yesterday liked it
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Derek Bolton knows his beans, if you can I would suggest a course with Paul Pearce as well. Between Derek and Paul you won't go far wrong 2 top blokes and good tutors.
In the solutions pack m power is good others do the same stuff but call it bio.
Spm is a boosted micro splitter basically a heavy duty microsplitter with oxy added. solu boost I think they call it.