Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Matthew Broadhead on September 16, 2015, 11:51:40 am
-
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1442400745_image.jpg)
So guys apparently I've broken a window with my pole. Despite the fact that the hole is twice the width of the end of the pole and it's a double glazed unit and it's a perfect circle. What do you think??
-
were you cleaning when it happened? Do you use hot water?
-
Football
-
I work for Matt. I was cleaning the window when it happened apparently. 3 months ago. There are a couple of extra details such as that the circular piece of glass from within the whole was still in place last month. It was just a circular crack last month.
-
I've seen a few broken windows in my time & they usually have cracks radiating out from them if they've been hit by a ball,... its a very unusual looking break & looks like the kind of break you'd get from thermal shock,.. thats why I was asking if you use a hot water system....
-
More detail and background please.
-
I work for Matt. I was cleaning the window when it happened apparently. 3 months ago. There are a couple of extra details such as that the circular piece of glass from within the whole was still in place last month. It was just a circular crack last month.
Not being funny but if you already new it was cracked why did you still atempt to clean it. ???
When you see cracked glass surely you should inform the customer and leave it well alone
-
We use cold water and we havent cleaned the broken pane since it was broken. The break happened between July and Augusts clean. I know for a fact that the window was fine on July's clean and when we did Aug clean there was a circular crack on the pane so I didnt clean that panel. Its the bottom pane of a sash. This month matt was cleaning the top pane and the disc fell out of the hole. The customer cane out and said that her husband was supposed to have rung him months ago.
-
We use cold water and we havent cleaned the broken pane since it was broken. The break happened between July and Augusts clean. I know for a fact that the window was fine on July's clean and when we did Aug clean there was a circular crack on the pane so I didnt clean that panel. Its the bottom pane of a sash. This month matt was cleaning the top pane and the disc fell out of the hole. The customer cane out and said that her husband was supposed to have rung him months ago.
That's significant ;D How many people, believing their window cleaner had broken a pane would dither for 'months' before tackling him about it? however that crack was caused, it wasn't the end of a pole, there would have been an impact mark (probably small hole with cracks radiating as Nat has said). There is no way you could strike a pane and cause a circular crack some inches from the point of impact with the centre of the circle of glass showing no sign of impact. Whatever caused it they are trying to pin it on the window cleaner to get him to pay for repairs.
Having said that, the sensible thing to have done would have been to inform the customer immediately the damage was noted. That way the customer couldn't have blamed the window cleaner if he hadn't started cleaning that particular window.
As for poking a hole with the pole, that means the pole was reversed and the butt end caused the damage - how likely is that??
-
Poking a hole is impossible its an upstairs window and I never touch the glass with any part of the pole other than the bristles. If there is anything that doesnt scrub off I get ladders off and scrape it. There are images on google of bird strikes causing similar looking damage but I personally think its a football as ive cleaned ball prints off his windows before.
-
Unfortunately this is one person's word against another.
In a court of law the owners would have to prove it was you who caused the damage. I doubt they could beyond reasonable doubt, but you never know the justice system. The customer admitting a delay with the complaint doesn't help their case as Ian has pointed out.
So you have 2 choices. You either pay for a replacement window pane or you don't.
If you get insurance involved the replacement glass would/could be less than the excess (in my case anyway.) So if you are going the goodwill route then you would be better off paying for the replacement yourself.
If you don't and refuse to accept any responsibility then there could be a future small claims court action for the cost taken out against you including 'reasonable' costs. Have you got the time to mess on with fighting that - lost earnings etc? Bearing in mind that both of you (the owner and the cleaner) would have to attend.
What sort of bad mouth publicity can this customer do to your reputation?
Would they be the type of people who would bad mouth you, whether you paid for the replacement or not?
Are you prepared to loose this customer, although there is no guarantee they won't dispense with your services after the glass has been replaced anyway?
No easy way out I'm afraid.
-
Poking a hole is impossible its an upstairs window and I never touch the glass with any part of the pole other than the bristles. If there is anything that doesnt scrub off I get ladders off and scrape it. There are images on google of bird strikes causing similar looking damage but I personally think its a football as ive cleaned ball prints off his windows before.
It certainly looks like a large round object has hit it. I would doubt you caused this IMHO.
-
No such thing as a good will guesture spruce.
Offering to pay for the damage in my book is admitting it was your fault regardless. If you certian that the damage caused was not your fault why the hell would you want to pay out. If so go tell them to do one in a nice way is what I would do as if they are trying it on they will not take it any further as you would have called their bluff so to speak.
Are you a man or mouse is the real question? ;D
-
You lead a very black and white life.
-
Thats a very 'clean' break...
The insides of the edges look pretty smooth, no many 'proper' cracks....if it wasnt for the shape of the holele i'd say someone had tried to cut it out!!!
-
Thermal shock shatters all the glass into tiny pieces, nothing like that photo. I know as I've had three shatter a day or a few weeks after they'd been cleaned using hot water in cold winter months.
-
Poking a hole is impossible its an upstairs window .
How come i can see your hand and the customers lawn and driveway in the reflection the window looks to be a downstairs window Just Saying
-
2 wheelie bins and a garden wall
-
I climbed the ladder to have a proper look and the garden slopes up to the road. My thoughts exactly gents. Definitely not taking responsibility
-
If it was your method or your tools why does every window not break? Customers are often looking for a scapegoat. Their argument is usually...'well it was fine before you touched it'...One customer of mine said that there wasn't a wasp nest in the attic before I turned up...so I must have caused it. Normally have to pay for these things and move on.
-
You lead a very black and white life.
I don't take any bullpoope from anyone if that's what you mean then yes I do ;D
-
I'm still trying to get my head around this, it's certainly a very strange break, to which I have a theory.. But first, you say it cracked a few months ago, but still continued to clean it ? Why? And did you not inform the customer at the time ?
Also in your picture to me there's water droplets over the glass and on the underside of the frame which appears to me that you have just finish washing it - is that the case ?
This is an upper window, then all things being equal you are pretty much the only ones working on the glass, unless a 12ft tall giant happens to pass by- so it's very reasonable to assume you may have damaged it, ground floor very different of course.
I would say that the brush head mat have been slammed onto the glass to hard ( purely by accident ) and maybe more than once.
You guys are the only ones to know what's really happened here, the fact is there are 2 of you, so in that respect you have a strength in numbers as to being accused of any wrongdoing, any cracked or broken windows should be noted/photographed and I wouldn't be cleaning any part of that window ( better left dirty and untouched than cleaned to cause confusion )
Over the years I've had several windows that were broken on arrival, and always done the above, and it's never gone any further, sometimes the customer is already aware but always grateful to be informed.
Also had a guy work for me who broke a Georgian window, he claimed it wasn't him and JUST after he had cleaned it a sparrow flew right into the glass, smashed it, a flew off ::)roll
Strange how there was a spray of water inside on the floor and on a settee - so should I argue to the customer this mystery sparrow caused the damage or just get a replacement organised, of course I got a replacement sorted, the customer got a free clean to. ( that was more than the glass!) but four years later I still clean the property and several of their friends.
Sorry, think I waffled a bit there :-[
Still I'd be interested in your answers to the q's
Darran
-
If it was your method or your tools why does every window not break? Customers are often looking for a scapegoat. Their argument is usually...'well it was fine before you touched it'...One customer of mine said that there wasn't a wasp nest in the attic before I turned up...so I must have caused it. Normally have to pay for these things and move on.
You make a good point.
-
No such thing as a good will guesture spruce.
Offering to pay for the damage in my book is admitting it was your fault regardless. If you certian that the damage caused was not your fault why the hell would you want to pay out. If so go tell them to do one in a nice way is what I would do as if they are trying it on they will not take it any further as you would have called their bluff so to speak.
Are you a man or mouse is the real question? ;D
I don't agree Smurf.
But this is an issue that will be resolved one way or another. If it went to court and the judge ruled in favour of the window cleaners, then what? How much time has been wasted getting to that point, and time costs money.
What happens then? Will this customer be happy with the ruling or will they continue to bad mouth the window cleaner's reputation?
-
you say it cracked a few months ago, but still continued to clean it ? Why?
We have not cleaned the broken panel since we noticed the damage. (The damaged glass has not been touched with any tools since Aug when we noticed it). As I said previously they are saying the damage occured on Julys clean. That is impossible as the husband watched me clean that side of the house until I had finished and asked me if I would get my ladders of to scrape the bathroom window as it had some sticker glue on that was barely visible from the ground.
And did you not inform the customer at the time?
The customer wasnt in at the time. As the guy watched me do Julys clean I thought it would be reasonable to not need to mention it as urgently as its a bedroom window and would have been noticed by them over the previous 4 weeks. Lesson learned on that one. I'm going to review my procedure regarding damaged property to include photographs before we go near the damage with any equipment.
Also in your picture to me there's water droplets over the glass and on the underside of the frame which appears to me that you have just finish washing it - is that the case ?
The picture was taken yesterday by matt up the ladder after the whole house was finished. The break is in the bottom right panel of a modern plastic sash. Basically 2 small sash windows next to eachother. The droplets in the photo are what has run off from the panel above and overspray.
-
The upstairs windows are at road level with the garden sloping down to the house. We have cleaned ball prints off both upstairs and downstairs windows before.
As an update Matt has left a note asking for the husband to ring him asap so we'll see what that brings. We were out all evening last night and he hadn't rung so I personally dont think the husband is that bothered and its just his mrs going off on one. We shall see tho.
-
Still didn't answer the important questions....
Must be high as you needed a ladder to reach that window.... And you still ( from what you posted ) cleaned a broken window albeit another part which makes it harder for you to deny doing the damage, especially if you didn't flag it up to the customer.
Theses situations are always difficult, and nine times out of ten leave one or more parties with a bitter taste in the mouth.
Darran
-
Being wrongly accused of damaging customer’s property is a slap in the face for sure no matter what it is. Therefore they are not worth keeping on your books so best you dump them after you have made it clear you were not responsible for the alleged damage.
-
Still didn't answer the important questions....
Must be high as you needed a ladder to reach that window.... And you still ( from what you posted ) cleaned a broken window albeit another part which makes it harder for you to deny doing the damage, especially if you didn't flag it up to the customer.
These situations are always difficult, and nine times out of ten leave one or more parties with a bitter taste in the mouth.
I agree Daran,
This is why I would just replace the glass and draw a line under it.
I will speak to both my guys and put in place a specific instruction as how to deal with this should it arise.
Many years ago I came across a cracked bathroom window opener. I didn't clean that window and left a note explaining that I found the window cracked and haven't cleaned it. The lady didn't know the window was damaged, but when she asked the window fitter who replaced it what caused it, he told her the cold. She was happy with that explanation but I was expecting it to go pear shaped.
Darran
-
Nice example spruce.
Darran
-
Always best to inform the customer of any damage to glass including blown sealed units, damaged plastics etc and take pics too just for the record to cover yer own arse. Same goes with gutter clearing and any other services you offer as the first one they will blame is the cleaner. Even othe trades like painters etc will say it's the cleaners fault too just to pass the buck. ;D
-
Being wrongly accused of damaging customer’s property is a slap in the face for sure no matter what it is. Therefore they are not worth keeping on your books so best you dump them after you have made it clear you were not responsible for the alleged damage.
I understand how unjust this is.
When I worked for Channel 5 as a video retuner I came across several situations where I was accused of damaging customer's equipment. I was incensed because I didn't, but Channel 5 just replaced a knacked video with a new one. One woman then complained a week later that I had broken her TV as well and they replaced that.
Crazy as it sounds, 18 years later I still get uptight when I drive past the house.
But to some people, trying to get something for nothing is a sport. After all, look how common insurance fraud is these days.
-
Always best to inform the customer of any damage to glass including blown sealed units, damaged plastics etc and take pics too just for the record to cover yer own arse. Same goes with gutter clearing and any other services you offer as the first one they will blame is the cleaner. Even othe trades like painters etc will say it's the cleaners fault too just to pass the buck. ;D
I agree. As I said earlier, I would doubt that the window cleaners caused the damage, but there are communication faults on both sides.
Unfortunately the nature of our business can lead to customer's taking advantage of us.
We have a customer who was away on holiday and her daughter texted her advising that she had paid for the window cleaning. She hadn't but we were left in a difficult situation but for her daughter that was a quick £26.00 in her purse for mother's and brother's house. The quickest and easiest £26.00 she has ever earnt.
But we also have heard of window cleaners taking advantage of vulnerable customers.
-
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1442504862_999.jpg)
If you look at the photo there appears to be a very small point of impact above the big circle which has stress lines running from it so perhaps this was the initial point of impact that later developed into the big hole ?
A pellet gun would create a small area of damage or a stone flying from a strimmer (customer did this on a £500 pane of glass)
just my impression :)
-
No matter what happens you have lost the customer
-
That looks like defective glass maybe a flaw in the glass which had unequal expansion in the sun.
-
call your insurance and let them dealing with that!
-
If it's not your fault why would you do that?
Not only that most don't cover property being worked on so you would not be covered anyway.
-
Looking at this from an insurance view and don't forget that public liability claims are legal liability claims, then the onus of proof is with the customer to prove that you have caused the damage.
Insurers (who base their decisions on case law and their experiences in front of a judge) will often use the "in all probability" test, so there is always a little work that you will need to do to highlight that you didn't cause the damage. Often a solid method statement will help in this scenario.
-
Looking at this from an insurance view and don't forget that public liability claims are legal liability claims, then the onus of proof is with the customer to prove that you have caused the damage.
Insurers (who base their decisions on case law and their experiences in front of a judge) will often use the "in all probability" test, so there is always a little work that you will need to do to highlight that you didn't cause the damage. Often a solid method statement will help in this scenario.
Interesting post