Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Richy L on April 27, 2006, 10:37:45 pm
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I did my first full day of WFP on my domestic round today. The results - not so good. :(
It slowed me down so much! I was earning much less per hour using my backpack/trolley system. In fact, one customer said, "it takes a lot longer using that machine doesn't it. you're usually done in a few minutes."
I know that WFP is great for comercial work. But i just dont think its all that practical for normal, 3/4 bedroom houses.
A house cleaned normally will take about 10-15 minutes usually traditional method(including collecting money), with the WFP about 20 minutes. Thats a lot of time wasted throughout the day. I did the last four houses traditional, and i noticed the difference.
All in all, for me, its faster cleaning trad!
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Get a van and get rid of the backpack then you will see the difference.
Backpacks take far too long
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think back to your first ever day cleaning trad...I bet you were very slow!!
I actually think trolleys are a bit counter productive in terms of time...all those barrels...I have a 400 litre van mount with hose which I just pull off and walk to each window...a van is just a BIG trolley really with 1 x 400 litre barrel!!...seems very simple to me.
You will speed up amazingly over the next few months with WFP...but don`t throw the towel in on your FIRST full day.
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yeah, but the actual cleaning takes longer. For me, i can put my ladders up , climb the ladder, clean the window, climb back down again, quicker than it takes for me to brush.
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:-X
;)
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i have used WFP before on the odd job, from my dads van mounted system. so i know how to do it, and im not slow at it either, its just not as fast
I see ive made squeaky happy!
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by the way, I agree with you about time on some houses...I really don`t stress about it... if I know the house can be done quicker trad...it is done trad as long as I know it is safe to do so.
I use WFP where it is much quicker and more practical and safer to do so...I love doing trad on some of my round.
My van is a big toolbox...I use them all when appropriate.
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Been on wfp for two months now and its knocked a full day a week off my round definatley no regrets.
All the houses i have which are unsuitable for pole work i just give them away with every new one i picked up, get the right sort of houses and you will notice loads of difference.
I agree that some house you can clean as quick traditionaly as you can wfp and in my case that was only because of acsess ie garages or back gates to go over, so i just gave them up and i earn lots more now than i ever did on my ladders.
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I would sooner take 20 mins to do a house knowing at the end of it both feet are safely on the ground, if you fall off your ladder youll be off work a lot longer than 20 mins. I know what your saying weve all been there just stick with it
best of luck
Brett
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hi my round is all domestic and i use a pole for nearly everything i have as ronaldo has just said knocked 1day off in working time per week and i think my safety comes above any time advantage in time you will get faster
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try using a backflip you will be much faster,than up a ladder or wfp :D
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yeah, but the actual cleaning takes longer. For me, i can put my ladders up , climb the ladder, clean the window, climb back down again, quicker than it takes for me to brush.
I've certainly found WFP to be slower on the first clean with it and sometimes the second. Although it has taken me a while, it seems that things are now getting quicker and easier. Maybe you are exceptionally fast with a squeegee? I used to make sure that water was covering every inch of the glass and brush it too much. I've now found that I was being too picky with it.
Having said that, I do find some jobs quicker by trad method too - particularly if access is tricky.
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i have never used a back flip but often pole, i find it slowish and not always a good clean prehaps you cpuld show us some tips at the next windex terry!! any tips
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you cant judge your speed on wfp untill you have clean these houses 3/4 times
you wait.
if your customer blinks they will miss you.
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the thing is, im 21 and have been window cleaning since 14(when i made my own saturday round - cleaning bungalows around my house), so i can move quite fast now. even if i dont clean the frames WFP, it is still quicker for me to clean them by hand. I use two hands for trad, left to put soap on, right to take it off.
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I got my backpack in September last year and it's really speeding me up now.
In fact this has been my HIGHEST earning week and my previous record has been broken by £120.
Today has also been my highest earning day and I managed to break the £200 barrier that I've been trying to do for ages (I've been window cleaning for 3 years and started from scratch; so I think that's good).
The thing with the back pack is, is takes time to learn where's the best place to position it for maximum effect.
And first WFP cleans will slow you down; as will lack of experience.
Also, I recommend using a pole with the hose outside, since this gives you extra reach.
Not only that; if you don't cough up your dues to the tax man, he starts chasing you, which also increases your work-rate speed! ;)
Leekson, I'm in Caldicot on Monday if you want to pop round and spend an hour with me.
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Sorry, Tuesday; Monday is a Bank Holiday or Public Holiday or something.
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Yeah ok, I might do that. I might be doing some jet washing that day though. If i do though, i'll give you a ring to let you know. Cheers mate.
by the way tosh, i had someone come up to me that lives at shakespeare drive. Asked me if i wanted to clean his windows, because you had stopped coming, is this right? i didnt want to just take him on, incase you were behind on your work.
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£200 in a day!!!!!!!!
You cant argue with that Tosh,
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by the way tosh, i had someone come up to me that lives at shakespeare drive. Asked me if i wanted to clean his windows, because you had stopped coming, is this right? i didnt want to just take him on, incase you were behind on your work.
I can't think who this is. I've about five customers there and I'm only a few days late.
However, believe it or not, there's another WFP who works there (Ben), and I remember getting mistaken for him (God knows how, since I've got slanty-eyes and a Geordie accent), so I think that's one of Ben's customers.
Take them on.
From what I know of Ben, he tends to underprice, find the job difficult, then not turn up again.
Nice bloke though.
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Leekson, I demonstrated to Tommo the speed at which I work, judging by his expression I think he was somewhat surprised at just how quick you can actually work and still do a top job.
Tommo uses the forum and logs in now and again, and if he reads this thread I'm sure he will vouch for my worrk rate, and it is faster than trad be a big, big margin (Turbo Terry notwithstanding of course!)
I am in Rogiet next friday morning (about 10:30am) I have a few down there that Tosh passed across to me, you are also welcome to see the pace (and quality of finish I achive) I work at.
I am prepared to bet that you would not get that close to the speed I go at if you were to do the same account trad.
The average window cleaner will do the average window in 90 seconds, and over a minute for a 2 pane UPVC window too.
I'm not talking about doing it at race speed, you only have to watch Turbo Terry in action to know why, but even a quick window cleaner will not clean a standard 3 pane UPVC window in under a minute.
That does not include the frames, but it does allow for at least a little detailing and the sills to be wiped down.
WFP will do that same window, frames and sills included in no more than about 20 seconds on repeat cleans.
You really do need to watch someone who is used to working at that rate to see just how easy it is too.
To begin with you have to re-learn the best way to clean a house you may have been cleaning trad for years, yo uneed to know how much water you will need, where to position your back pack and so on.
Each house will require you to adopt a slightly different method, and of course the first couple of cleans you are spending a lot longer on and using more water to ensure you are doing a good quality job.
Stick with it, grit your teeth and accept you are going to be slower than usual for a while, it does take a while before you realise you can open the throttle and go for it.
Ian
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I don't get the comment "where to position your backpack". Surely it's on your back? Don't you just walk around with it??
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Terry, is this what you mean by using the backflip,
(http://img118.i.us/img118/2694/porctbar2nn.jpg)
http://www.hgpromotions.com/window_conservatory_cleaning.php#
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Leeksons, It took me ages to get up to speed with WFP, I am nearly all domestics too. I am flying now though, you tend to spend too much time rinsing when you start but soon become more confident as your technique improves. I still do the bottom windows trad if I'm working alone. I was a big fan of the Backflip until I discovered the Wagtail, it works the same way as an all in one tool, but is less than half the weight.
Tosh, congratulations mate, I haven't managed to reach the magic figure yet, Me and the Mrs managed £185 one day this week though, even with my rubbish prices. £730 for the week. Next year I will be eligible for my old age pension, don't think I could live on what I can make in a morning though.
Dai
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I started wfp in January, For the first month on first cleans I was slower then trad w/c, On average 10 mins a house. I just accepted it but I stuck with it. It drove me up the wall, I was tempted to do them trad but I took the long term view, its new to me and I wanted to do the job right.
4 months have gone by and my work load for Two of us has gone from 4 1/2 days a week to three. I am earning a lot more per day then trad cleaning, and I was mega fast Trad w/cleaning. But no were near as fast as wfp. Plus my round is expanding at the same time. This month alone I have taken on an extra £180.
Stick with it and give it time, Oh by the way mines a Domestic round as well.
Nel.
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I agree wfp can be slower than traditional but not if you start doing houses three floors high with 190 lead glass windows......get 100 of them a month x £200 each and long gone will your ladder and squeege
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I can see your point, Leeksons.
You are half my age and probably go like a rocket with a washer and blade and can run up a ladder.
But for me after 20 years up and down ladders I simply got tired of it.
I have had my first month WFP. Two weeks with a Backpack and it has definately speeded me up. But my work is so varied that most jobs have some sort of awkward bit with the ladder, not like 3 bed semi's in an estate.
So, in your case, WFP is not for you. But please don't Knock it and if you have invested good hard erned money in it, at least give it a good month and see how you get on. If your as fit and fast with trad as you say you are, with the same attitude to WFP you could be even faster?
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what tools you use, it's your work attitude that will get the job done!!
David Salkeld
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yeah i can vouch for ian's speed with wfp. In fact it give me more confidence to go quicker and like ian still do a top job...cheers ian!!
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I agree wfp can be slower than traditional but not if you start doing houses three floors high with 190 lead glass windows......get 100 of them a month x £200 each and long gone will your ladder and squeege
I wouldn't mind some of that! Thats £20K a month.... :o
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i dont regret buying the WFP, for some jobs its great, and conservatory rooves are great jobs when they come in. I wouldnt mind seeing a few of you guys soon then, if thats ok, to see if i could speed up.
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Rich, my offer is as serious as Tosh's, only to happy to put my money where my mouth is.
If by watching me (or Tosh) it can help give you a few pointers then I'm only too willing to help.
Ian
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wat a load of rubbish: 21 3/4 large houses + some with connservatorys
in a day first clean 8 houses done now 21
trad could do about 10+ cons,leaded as well all with climbs on sloping roofs,dangerous,couldnt do in wet or snow frost etc,now do them in the rain
gaza
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Leeksons
Stick with it, it is a lot and i mean a lot faster than trad.
Its a lot safer too
Dave
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used WFP for 4 years now, and i dont have a single job, commercial or domestic, that can be done any where near as fast as someone using ladders.
if its taking longer using the WFP then in my opinion your not doing it right.
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used WFP for 4 years now, and i dont have a single job, commercial or domestic, that can be done any where near as fast as someone using ladders.
Sorry im a bit thick today........
are you saying all your jobs are done quicker with ladders than you can with wfp?
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LOL, im the thick one mate, didnt read what i had typed!!! ::)
basically when i made the change to WFP from ladders i am now finding i am doing all of my work commercial/domestic ALOT faster than when i was on the ladders.........hope ive typed it right this time ;D
put it this way, i would never go back to ladders!
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I tried using WFP again today after meeting up with Tosh(thanks again for the help), but i really dont think it is all that fast for me.
Maybe it was just the part of the round i was cleaning, but trying to get my tolley around the back of some houses was a nightmare! I had all sorts in my way; plant pots, hose pipes, you name it.
I see how it would be easier using a van mounted system, as you would only have to carry the brush and let the hose follow you, but to carry my brush, pipes and wheel my trolley around the back of each house just took up so much time.
The actual cleaning of the windows may be quicker for the upstairs, but all in all, it takes longer, being as your just wasting so much of the time.
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You tryed using your trolley as a van mount, if you get what I mean ??? then get some nice microbore hose, its getting use to it all new way of doing things does take time, I have not heard of one window cleaner going back to ladders after going to WFP dont say your going to be the first :-\
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If i had a van, i would probably be singing its praises too.
Its just i can tell, and maybe its just my round, that cleaning trad is quicker for me compared to the trolley system.
Obviously not for georgian, and leaded. Im talking about the majority of "normal" windows out there.
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Maybe it was just the part of the round i was cleaning, but trying to get my tolley around the back of some houses was a nightmare! I had all sorts in my way; plant pots, hose pipes, you name it.
I see how it would be easier using a van mounted system, as you would only have to carry the brush and let the hose follow you, but to carry my brush, pipes and wheel my trolley around the back of each house just took up so much time.
OK - I've got an aquatec (Peter Fogwill) trolley which takes one or two 25L barrels - I also have a backpack - and a 125L tank - all in my estate car.
To get around the back of houses over plantpots etc, I put 1 x 25L barrel in the trolley and in the space for the second (After spreading the bars on the trolley by about half an inch each side using a car jack! ;D) I put the backpack (18L). Depending on the houses, I do the fronts, end terraces and semi's from the barrel and if any of the backs are difficult for the trolley to get to I lift out the backpack, do the backs, put it back on the trolley and carry on.
If the job suits it I roll out the hose from the 125L tank and use that! Simple really!
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...and all that faffing around is quicker. ::)
My foot.
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If i had a van, i would probably be singing its praises too.
Its just i can tell, and maybe its just my round, that cleaning trad is quicker for me compared to the trolley system.
Obviously not for georgian, and leaded. Im talking about the majority of "normal" windows out there.
If you eventually got a van mount or some type of regular WFP system, after a while you would probably find yourself seeking the type of work that would be more suitable for it (i.e. larger jobs with decent access). nothing wrong with that either. You could always sell on the part of your round that was more suited to ladders. Working that way, you could increase your income substantially once you got the feel of WFP.
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Ol' squeaky's like those Japanese soldiers that carried on fighting the second world war into the 1970's on some forsaken pacific island. The rest of the world carried on after 1945 (including Japan) and left 'em behind. ::)
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Ol' squeaky's like those Japanese soldiers that carried on fighting the second world war into the 1970's on some forsaken pacific island. The rest of the world carried on after 1945 (including Japan) and left 'em behind. ::)
I thought Squeaky was still using a slingshot and rocks ;D
Just a bit of fun Rog. No harm meant.
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Rich,
Link up with me on Friday morning, it'll only take out 30 mins of your time, and you will see how I cope with a couple of awkward houses in Rogiet.
Mine is a van mount of course, so different to Tosh's set up.
I'm intending to get some microbore hose, but I've only got a 60psi pump, and not at all sure that I will have a high enough flowrate with 100m of the stuff.
At the moment dragging out normal size hose can be a pain at times, and on some accounts it can be a pain, at other times it is so fast there is no comparison to using a ladder.
But even with the awkward factor thrown in there, on most houses the time saved on the actual cleaning of the windows more than compensates for it.
It is always interesting to see how others work though
Ian
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yeah, great ill take you up on that.
Can you send me your phone number, then ill call you friday morning.
r1chyal@tiscali.co.uk -- if you dont want to put it on the post.
What time were you thinking?
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Rich,
Link up with me on Friday morning, it'll only take out 30 mins of your time, and you will see how I cope with a couple of awkward houses in Rogiet.
Mine is a van mount of course, so different to Tosh's set up.
I'm intending to get some microbore hose, but I've only got a 60psi pump, and not at all sure that I will have a high enough flowrate with 100m of the stuff.
At the moment dragging out normal size hose can be a pain at times, and on some accounts it can be a pain, at other times it is so fast there is no comparison to using a ladder.
But even with the awkward factor thrown in there, on most houses the time saved on the actual cleaning of the windows more than compensates for it.
It is always interesting to see how others work though
Ian
Ian
Met up with Rich P@F last Friday and saw a bloke who was running a 60psi pump with 100m microbore.
He had a problem as in the water just trickled out of the brush.
He had the 3mm jets in his brush.
After changing them to 2mm the problem was solved.
Craig
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...and all that faffing around is quicker. ::)
My foot.
Not only is it faster, it earns you more money and is easier.
Remember, Leekson has just started using it.
I doubt many people here have an area such as I do; around seventy houses all built on the side of a hill. High windows, 1st and ground floor. Steps and narrow alley ways to gain access to many of the rears.
At first, I nearly went back to using ladders on this estate, for the rears anyway.
But, it just takes a bit of thought and experience.
I now fill the backpack up to the brim and clean the fronts of say, three of them; unhitch the backpack from the trolley; and carry it on a handle around the rears (up steps and through overgrown weed-infested alley ways).
Because I done the fronts first, it's lighter to carry, so no trolley is needed and the wheels aren't getting tangled up in weeds and stuff.
After four to seven months experience (I'm a slow learner), my turn-over is increasing to a level I could never have achieved using ladders.
I'd say I turn-over around 30% more using the backpack; which is better than a kick up the backside.
Safer too; although I still regularly use ladders when I have to.
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Rich,
I've emailed you some details ;)
And darn tootin' it's faster :o
Today has been the biggest day on the round, it comes around once every 8 weeks and I am not going to say how much I have turned over, I started at 8 am (town council offices (and I see you had started earlier Tosh, saw you had had done the italian)) then 3 office blocks down the bottom of town and a single house a couple of miles outside town.
I had a 30 minute dinner break and although the work was quite hard because it is all 3 storey work, it was done at a leisurely pace but even so, one job that with ladders used to take me 4 hours (Squeaks could do it in 3 hours by the way) I now do with ease in 1 hour.
It is now coming up to 3pm, I've been back home since 2pm and I've earned more in just over 5 and a half hours than many will earn in 3 days, and there is no way on this planet could I have done so were I still on ladders, in fact that one office I now do in an hour would have probably been enough for me.
It was always roughly a mornings work and always left you completely wasted.
I'm goingto stop farting around on here and I am off to put my feet up in my garden hammock and have a doze in the lovely warm, spring sunshine 8)
Ian ;D ;D ;D
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ok ladders against wfp...ok so a van mount is probably quicker than a trolley mount but wfp is still quicker and can earn you a lot more money.
I have many £10 houses but my biggest customers are
80 flats cleaned 4 hours £365.00
65 flats cleaned 3 hours £315.oo
sports car manufaturer 2 hours £150.00
190 lead glass three storey house 3 hours £200.00
Food plant 10 hours split 5 hrs fri-5 hrs sat £1000.00
i have many blocks of flats and have just quoted another at £700.00 for two days
None of these buildings could be done quicker traditionally let alone at all.
So as long as you have a wfp trolley or van it will allways be financially more rewarding than using a ladder and squeege
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Iv'e been WFP for 4 weeks now, most of the work is domestic.
First few days I had the same problem of taking longer on some work and the same time on other work.
After 4 weeks i'm still on first cleans, but we are getting through more work than before. I put this down to now knowing how best to use the equipment.
I expect second cleans to be even quicker, and will be starting them next week.
I have a mate who had the same problem and has now decided that for those houses which on first cleans took longer, he will stay trad. This is a mistake, because, if nothing else, you work quicker as you figure out where to put equipment etc.
Stick with it, it will get better.
Finally, my 2p worth on the "trad or pole quicker" debate.
The only way you will know is to do your own work at your own pace, with both trad and pole.
So Squeeky needs to borrow a WFP so that he will know for himself that it is quicker WFP.
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Well, I've been wfp for about 8-9 weeks now, Just finished the 2nd clean on all my customers. My first cleans on wooden framed windows were just a bit slower than trad, about 2-4 mins per semi-detached house. On PVC framed windows on the 1st cleans was a lot slower, about 5-10 mins per detached house, I think this was because the frames held more dirt than well varnished wooden frames, and took longer to get up to an acceptable standard. Also the PVC frames have the dreaded vents that drip dirty water for ages :(
However, the second cleans were faster. On wooden frames it was as fast and maybe about a minute faster. On Pvc frames it was also a couple of mins faster.
I'm expecting to find the 3rd cleans to speed up more as I get more used to wfp and how best to clean each house.
I do some commercial work too, and on one factory that has a row of high windows about 14ft up and the window panes are 9ft high and about 12ft across, so the tops of the glass are 23ft up. There's about 7 of these in a row and the same downstairs and also a load around the back of the office block. The outsides done trad used to take 2.5 hrs to do, with someone footing the ladder for the big frames around the front. Did it all on my own with wfp in just over an hour!!
The biggest gains are in commercial work, but my experience is that there is a time advantage in domestic work after the 1st clean, and the great thing for your customers is that they now get their frames cleaned each month, which I didnt do before.
Tim
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The change over to WFP isnt just about how well or quickly you actually clean the windows.
If you have been totally trad as I was it's really like learning your whole round over again. Its the equipment handling.. where to place it etc that really takes up the time. You cant expect to be as fast first time around espaecially on domestics with all of the access issues etc. To give up after a day or 2 and blaming the kit isnt really fair. I was frustrated.. fed-up.. wondering i'd I had done the right thing etc for the first couple of weeks. I was actually quite abit slower the 1st time around but I wasn't going to give up easilly and go back to ladder work when I didnt have to.
2nd time around I was much faster than the first. From then on I reckon I was atleast 10% faster each time around until I reached a plateau at the 5th time around I reckon. By then I was at least 40% faster. A few months more down the line and its nearly 50% faster overall. It's easier.. safer and less tiring.
I really believe that a lot of the "what is best.. van mount..trolley..backpack" debate is answered honestly by people who have bought a system and stuck with it.. adapting their working methods to suit. Of course there are eceptions to this where for instance Tosh's workload has so many access probs that the backpack is probably the only piece of WFP kit that will do the job for him.
I have a van mount which I use mainly on commercial work.. long runs of easy access windows in the main. Its superb for this. For the domestic stuff its the trolley all the way for me. Tried the van mount on it for a month and just could not get the work done anywhere near as fast.
Cheers
Andrew