Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Robin Ray on March 05, 2015, 08:15:08 am
-
Just noticed solutions are now selling the Jag with 8.4 motors. Should be pretty powerful.
-
What would you estimate the figures?
-
About 280 cfm and 148" water lift about 10-11 hg
-
Yeah , that would be about right for two parallel 8.4 , perhaps a bit more cfm .
Look at the suction test i did last week , the 6.6 and the electro were bang on the figures supplied by the manufacturer , so the 8.4 should have 10.5 HG like the electro .
The figures supplied by that machines supplier would be less if they are not offering it for sale or more if they are :D
Any way there are better designed machines to choose from no matter what vacs are in it .
-
But thats about the same as 2* 6.6 isnt it?
-
Two 6.6 should be 276 cfm and 131.5" of water lift or 9-10 hg so not far off only 4 ish cfm and 17 inches of water lift or 1 " hg more..
-
John
As you have a lift gauge ad many motors, when you get a minute can you test to see what the lift drop is if you run one single motor in parallel with two series motors. In theory it should drop to the lift of the single motor but that may not be the case in practice.
Thanks
Rob
-
John
As you have a lift gauge ad many motors, when you get a minute can you test to see what the lift drop is if you run one single motor in parallel with two series motors. In theory it should drop to the lift of the single motor but that may not be the case in practice.
Thanks
Rob
Will do , il get onto it when i get a chance .
Im guessing u are thinking of what would happen if you add the airflex booster to your aux machine port ?
-
Yes. I am going to make a booster to fit on the port. I plan to make a in series booster like yours however it will be interesting to see if only one extra motor gives some meaningful performance increase.
I am a little concerned about drawing 9000w from property using the 4 vac motors and a heater.
-
Ask to plug in at thier neighbours ' my machine is so powerful it needs 2 homes to power it' its a unique selling point ;)
-
Yes. I am going to make a booster to fit on the port. I plan to make a in series booster like yours however it will be interesting to see if only one extra motor gives some meaningful performance increase.
I am a little concerned about drawing 9000w from property using the 4 vac motors and a heater.
I got a big roll of arctic 2.5mm three core from an electrical place and some heavy duty plugs and double heads . I made a 30m ext cord which i use every day , and a 70m for the odd long run .
When you set up your machine at the property , twin vac and heater can go to the one room .
You just need to subtely plug in your ext cord elsewhere as far away as possible from that room , if you are doing upstairs ... run the cord to upstairs , if u have easy access to the kitchen and not bothering anyone go there ... or some other room a distance away . That can be your booster power source .
You get used to doing it subtly without the watch of the owner , you dont want to wander round infront of the customer with a massive extension cord looking like you need to plug it in somewhere , might freak them out or they will tell you there is four sockets in the room you are working in .
there is heaps of electricity available for such a setup , i usually have air blowers on also . And if it just happens thats its too much hassle to source the extra circuit now and again , what odds you still have your twin vac setup .
Think of it like this also , a two man team using two heated portables in the one job is 12000w from the machines alone and it wouldnt be too unusual ?
-
I wonder if all these add on boosters and extra wires, actually make the purpose of having a portable redundant. After all, the beauty of having a portable, is the ease of being able to get it close to the job and transport it to inaccessible places. If you have to start taking lot's of extra bits and pieces with you, it adds to the time of setting up, and all those wires getting in the way.
These top of the range portables are powerful enough to be used as they are. There must come a time when it would be better and more convenient to get a truckmount as you have more heat and power without trying to short out the national grid. Just a thought. :)
-
I thought solutions weren't fond of the 8.4 motors? It would be intesting to see if they do make a big difference, I wonder if one 8.4 could replace 2 x 5.7 standard motors.
Shaun
-
I thought solutions weren't fond of the 8.4 motors? It would be intesting to see if they do make a big difference, I wonder if one 8.4 could replace 2 x 5.7 standard motors.
Shaun
Depends on the 5.7 . Could it be as powerfull as two weak 1200w old school 5.7s ...perhaps .
Could it be as power as two of the better Electros ... no chance .
Infact the full amp 1800w electro 5.7 would whoop it in a suction test , just like the 1600w electro whooped the 6.6 .
-
I wonder if all these add on boosters and extra wires, actually make the purpose of having a portable redundant. After all, the beauty of having a portable, is the ease of being able to get it close to the job and transport it to inaccessible places. If you have to start taking lot's of extra bits and pieces with you, it adds to the time of setting up, and all those wires getting in the way.
These top of the range portables are powerful enough to be used as they are. There must come a time when it would be better and more convenient to get a truckmount as you have more heat and power without trying to short out the national grid. Just a thought. :)
I still use my boosted portable as a portable , im not trying to emulate a truckmount . But the extra power means i can run fast at 250-300psi without dry srtokes , with improved cleaning results . And i can reach a bit further with no performance drop .
And i dont have a heap of wires ... just two for the machine ... another somewhere if u want the heater .
(http://i61.tinypic.com/iwte6r.jpg)
-
Who sells 1600w or 1800w electros and would they fit in a Powerflight cheers Darren.
-
Not getting into a truckmount vs portable debate as it is clear that a TM is more powerful quicker and easier to use than a porty. However while considering getting a TM there are a number of other factors to getting one over the speed and efficiency.
1 The initial outlay is huge in comparison with a box with a couple of extra motors in.
2 The running costs in fuel and servicing are massive in comparison with customers electric
3 The noise is huge in comparison with electric motors
4 The entire van needs to be dedicated to the use of the TM
5 In certain areas only a porty or LM can be used
6 4 vac motors are now giving the same performance figures as a entry level TM (does the carpet know the difference)
I think for some such a Simon Gerrarrd a TM is the only solution. However with the advances in electric vac motors it would be mad not to consider the electric option, as it potentially can provide the savings of electric and the power of petrol.
-
1 So?
2 So?
3 Good
4 So?
5 Thats when you would use a portable.
6 Absolute rubbish.
-
1 saves money = potentially more profit (the reason for work)
2 same as above
4 you have more flexibility
6 Mytee escape = 16 hg and 325 cfm vs Prochem Blazer =14 hg and 270 cfm (I make that 2 more hg and 55 more cfm) therefore not rubbish
another example could be just 4 normal 3 stage motors, two pairs of series motors running in paralle,l this would give 200 cfm and 17 hg compared with the cheapest entry level TM in the uk the Chemtex panther from woodbrigde commercial which gives 205 cfm and 14 hg ( i make that 5 cfm less and 3 hg more) therefore not rubbish again.
If you are happy with your TM and it works well for you that's great, but when looking at it from a pure performance point of view the electric motors are not far of and in some cases better. So for some one looking to spend £10000+ its worth considering electric first. If I can save £10000 i would be mad not to... wouldn't I?
-
I am not going to diss a portable, as used one for many years.
I can save 2 hours a day with my TM, it rinses faster, it dries faster..
it can earn me an extra £150 a day, so purchase costs and running costs are minimal
You hear of people having to change vac motors and pumps all the time, but rarely hear of people changing
blowers and pumps on a truckmount.
Had my machine serviced once by a company and managed the usual oil and filter changes myself as well as any
minor repairs.
Andrew
-
That great.. I'm glad it works well for you.
I'm not dissing Truckmounts I may end up getting one as i still haven't tried one yet and do plan to go down and have a look at hydramaster. I just cant help thinking the future is in electric because the performance gap is narrowing all the time.
You have a point with motors going in comparison with bloweres however you can buy between 10 and 15 vac motors for every blower.
-
Hang on, Robin, you are commenting on a truckmount that you have never used, then nothing you have to say on the subject has any substance. Quoting figures means nothing in an actual side by side comparison. Even John would agree with that. Portables are very good machines and as you say get better all the time. So lets compare a portable against a portable. You simply cant compare electric against an engine as they aren't the same thing.
Andrew has made the biggest comparison to the tune of an approx £30,000 a year difference so that takes care of your numbers one and two and makes all the other numbers pale off into insignificance.
-
is there a truckmount thread where we can all discuss the jag 8.4????
-
I'm comparing something that sprays and sucks to something that sprays and sucks. The carpet doesn't know the difference between a petrol powered blower and an electric powered vacuum motor. The only "substance" is in the figures.
If something can fill itself up, Heat the water, Spray the water out, Suck that water up, and empty itself. What else is there to compare apart from the figures?
-----
Tim what would you like to discuss about the Jag?
-
With respect a truckmount sprays and sucks better. As for the costs you make that up in efficiency. You can be cleaning/prespraying within about 8 minutes of starting and in my humble opinion because it generates so much heat the carpet dries quicker because it is hot water extracted and more is recovered due to more suction.
You can easily do 4 jobs in a day whereas allowing for backache etc you would probably do 2 max 3 in a day with a portable.
As for the noise apologize for it in your 5 arounds ;D
As for low moisture in my case that is at the opposite end of the universe to a truckmount............so I will skip that thought!
I think the carpet knows it at the end of the day!
-
Does a petrol powered blower producing 270 cfm and 14 hg produce more suck than an electric powered machine producing 325 cfm and 16 hg?
-
power aside, i imagine the time saved unloading the machine, and buckets aswell as any rinse agents amd defoamers, bags of hoses and the heater -then filling emptying etc, then reloading it at the end.
Vs roll up , vac,prespray and agitate- then roll out desired hose, hook up wand, power on and off you go.
Would love a go on a tm for sure
-
Think you are missing Robins point he is not comparing a portable to a manx or Everest size but to a prowler or 14hp panther and he thinks a storm or evolution can compete on suck not heat just suck.
I know a small T/M is quicker but would like to know what size of T/M is needed to make a real difference to the cleaning
-
Absolutely Jim.... I'm not entirely sure any two motor machine can compete in terms of figures but four motors defiantly can though.
Lewis
Many machines have auto fill and empty now too. I also run a water fed pole window cleaning system from my van, so have ample water to auto feed a machine and a water heater takes literally 2 mins to plug in. I'm not saying a petrol TM is not better but with the advancements of the last few years are they that much better?
-
Yes I agree With that Robin, using a boosted porty van mounted should offer the same time advantages, I have 400l watertank and used my jag van mounted a few times. Hose reels would have been a nice touch.
I was suprised when I saw the performance of entry tms , I stand by my opinion that whether high powered or boosted porty or a tm, allot of time can be saved using a mounted setup assuming auto fill/dup etc. £5k or less for a new machine with booster and spares vs £15k ish for entry tm? I think it's a lot to do with your market and business model,mine -as a relative beginner would not justify that expense
I took a job off a tm user a few weeks back, customer saw a video of mine on yt and was impressed so booked a property of his in for a clean, his cleaner wasn't as thorough he says- go figure
-
John
As you have a lift gauge ad many motors, when you get a minute can you test to see what the lift drop is if you run one single motor in parallel with two series motors. In theory it should drop to the lift of the single motor but that may not be the case in practice.
Thanks
Rob
lol , the 8.4 jag is gettin all this publicity on both forums and they dont supply it .
Did that test today , well knocked one motor off on my booster and put the lift gauge on the machine , no surprises ..lift dropped to around 10HG .
-
Thanks John, 4 motors it is then..
-
I took a job off a tm user a few weeks back, customer saw a video of mine on yt and was impressed so booked a property of his in for a clean, his cleaner wasn't as thorough he says- go figure
[/quote]
Hi Lewis , just because the guy used a truckmount does not mean he cleaned it properly. A tm is only as good as the user. A competent cleaner could clean a carpet with a low grade porty , just take longer .
-
As everyone knows I'm frivolous with money I have truck mount it's a right waste!
Shaun
-
Shaun, im sure you have a lot more work to do then myself, would you say its easier to sell a higher priced clean off the back of running the tm and is that how you approach the work or do you price similar to en established porty user but get through another £500+ worth of work a week due to the time savings?
I would love to try a tm but with my addictive nature i would be too depressed to carry on using portys if i liked the tm. I dont fill my diary each week as it is so no where near ready to justify that sort of investment
Lew
-
It would be good to get a video to watch of the jag 8.4 to see how noisy it would be I have the storm and I hate the noise that it makes even with the exhaust on
Oliver
-
It would be good to get a video to watch of the jag 8.4 to see how noisy it would be I have the storm and I hate the noise that it makes even with the exhaust on
Oliver
You probably have the earlier 6.6's which did sound awful. The newer ones sound much better without that high pitched screech
-
My 6.6 sounds like a jet engine, its a 2014model. Kinda like the sound, but hate the noise if you know what i mean.
-
My 6.6 sounds like a jet engine, its a 2014model. Kinda like the sound, but hate the noise if you know what i mean.
I meant to mention that when i was doing that lift comparison , the 6.6 is way louder that the electros , in that it emits the higher annoying freqs louder ... the 8.4 is same i'd say .
You can kinda hear it here with headphones ... the 8.4modified eclipse has a harsher tone to the electro fitted Mytee which never screams even when the muffler is removed .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn0OKWLYPVA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf7qyIvi_O0
-
Truck mounts are faster, years ago I had 2 vans with portis I when the other guy left I didn't want to employ any more so I looked at productivity and a tm is far cheaper than a helper.
Shaun
-
John martin
I admire your ideas but do customers comment on your Heath robinson Toolbox
-
John martin
I admire your ideas but do customers comment on your Heath robinson Toolbox
Not a wheel or pulley present on my toolbox Ian :)
Never ! I get pestered daily with questions and comments about the Enforcer , but no one ever asked about the toolbox .
-
As everyone knows I'm frivolous with money I have truck mount it's a right waste!
Shaun
Enough said really, if you have the work a TM wins hands down, if you don't like me then build your business with the best you can afford until you can afford a TM. Also with all these extra and bigger motors vacs and pumps fitted onto or into a porty does it defeat the object. for example if it is so bloomin heavy you can't lift it into or out of your van and have to have it van mounted is it still a porty.
I have a Jag with 6.6 vacs which have been reliable and long lasting, I run upto 100ft of 2inch hose with no problem, would I go for the 8.4 vacs..................... No because you can't imo beat a TM on every level. Marketing being the biggest point carpet may not be able to tell what is rinsing it but the custy does and they hold the Bangers and Mash
-
I think you are missing the point of what im saying..
There are more options now other than just a TM or a porty...
An electric TM like the escape provides as much power as a Sapphire 370ss and as much power as a Prochem Legend gt yet runs on electricity rather than petrol.
I am not saying people are frivolous for owning a TM. This is not a personal attack on anyone owning a TM. I am saying the electric option is now just as good within a certain range but costs considerably less to buy and run.
-
See what you mean now Robin, Yes an electric TM would be a great option but I thought it was no longer available here?
-
See what you mean now Robin, Yes an electric TM would be a great option but I thought it was no longer available here?
it has been told in the other thread that it is possible to order it, they just do not stock, demo is not available.
-
Robin
You know what they say "There are lies, damn lies and CFM figures"!!! and it would take more than a dozen vac motors to match the performance of either of the below machines, I ran a portable for 8 years so im not knocking them, but there simply is no comparison in performance, if you consider a 3 stage vac to be about 1.5 horsepower then you need 13 to match a 20hp truckmount. No offence intended, just real world facts.
"An electric TM like the escape provides as much power as a Sapphire 370ss and as much power as a Prochem Legend gt yet runs on electricity rather than petrol".
Alan
-
Robin
You know what they say "There are lies, damn lies and CFM figures"!!! and it would take more than a dozen vac motors to match the performance of either of the below machines, I ran a portable for 8 years so im not knocking them, but there simply is no comparison in performance, if you consider a 3 stage vac to be about 1.5 horsepower then you need 13 to match a 20hp truckmount. No offence intended, just real world facts.
"An electric TM like the escape provides as much power as a Sapphire 370ss and as much power as a Prochem Legend gt yet runs on electricity rather than petrol".
Alan
Robin can answer this ... but hey , im still up :)
The problem with your " need 13 1.5HP motors to match a 20HP engine driven PD blower is ...
you are not comparing like with like ... you are asuming efficiency is the same in both cases .
The PD blowers are a very different designs and there are multiple electric motors ...
not sure how u can equate efficiency in terms of HP .
You ran a portable in either parallel ... or u ran one in series ... which ever one u had it lacked either Lift or CFM as it was a two motor design .
The four motor design we are talking about here is in both series and parallel so you get the high lift and the high airflow which brings the figures closer to the typical petrol driven blowers specs .
From reading what those that have owned both the Mytee escape and 18-20HP TM said, there is not a whole lot in it up to about 100ft ... after 100ft the electric design looses more that the PD blower .
Also .. advances in electric motors ... the portable u ran probably had two 450 airwatt motors ... some recent motors produce up to 680 airwatts .
-
Does anyone have electric tripping issues with the bigger portables?
I use an electric pump and have to take a power cord into the kitchen otherwise I would trip a fuse box a couple of times a month.... this is just with a high powered pump.
I also go through the connectors at the end of the extention lead every 3-4 months as the plug melts the plastic and welds itself into the extention lead.
I won't comment much on the portable v TM but if you want to say that the most powerful portable available has equal suction to the most basic entry level truckmount then I would happily agree.
What I think would stop a portable being a viable alternative is the autofill fill requirement, where would you hook up the freshwater supply? Inside the house has so many tap variants to find a tap fitting that would be 100% useable without spraying all over the kitchen would be hard (with my PW I have tried so many times to use inside taps when they don't have an outside tap,it always is a nightmare) using an outside tap would mean using cold water unless you want your immersion then you are waiting around for it.
-
A quick thought....
If you can safely hook up a hosepipe in the kitchen to feed your portable Why not fit a pump into a box then sit it on the kitchen floor and hook up to the sink tap then directly feed your wand.
This would emmediatly get rid of the hosepipe running through the house and an electric cord
-
A quick thought....
If you can safely hook up a hosepipe in the kitchen to feed your portable Why not fit a pump into a box then sit it on the kitchen floor and hook up to the sink tap then directly feed your wand.
This would emmediatly get rid of the hosepipe running through the house and an electric cord
then first thing you would need to do when arriving is a dishwashing to empty the sink in many houses :)
-
Alan, my answer is the same as what John says. Also in terms of power and efficiency did you know Diesel trains actually run on Electric motors the Diesel bit is just a Generator... they don't seem to lack power.
Mike I had in mind having a tank in the van. For example, I uses my window cleaning system to fill my portable. With the pump and hose reel I have the option of either running it in the van or taking the portable out and leaving it at the door and running up to 100 meters of hose to it.
-
Robin, when people bring up this issue they always or usually refer to how much power there is in the recovery or vacuum. Leaving aside that we beg to differ on what has already been covered. The truckmount working at say 400 psi is totally different than a portable at 400 psi. So the comparison is still flawed that one is close to the other. You mentioned The Prowler, that is I think 3gpm at 2000 psi and piping hot water. Again, you cant compare the two as they are too far apart.
-
Your right Peter I am talking about the recovery system.
I have never felt the need to clean a carpet at 2000 psi however I do concede that petrol powered TMs do spray out a lot of water. As for heat though my magma heater generally produces steam when I need it, however a propane heater is the real answer. There is not one in the uk that can compete with TM heat though.
-
Does anyone have electric tripping issues with the bigger portables?
I use an electric pump and have to take a power cord into the kitchen otherwise I would trip a fuse box a couple of times a month.... this is just with a high powered pump.
I also go through the connectors at the end of the extention lead every 3-4 months as the plug melts the plastic and welds itself into the extention lead.
I won't comment much on the portable v TM but if you want to say that the most powerful portable available has equal suction to the most basic entry level truckmount then I would happily agree.
What I think would stop a portable being a viable alternative is the autofill fill requirement, where would you hook up the freshwater supply? Inside the house has so many tap variants to find a tap fitting that would be 100% useable without spraying all over the kitchen would be hard (with my PW I have tried so many times to use inside taps when they don't have an outside tap,it always is a nightmare) using an outside tap would mean using cold water unless you want your immersion then you are waiting around for it.
could be something like the startup surge on your pump ? or you work an area with out dated electrics ?
The melting lead ... it might not be thick enough ? or there is a bad connection somewhere causing resistance .
-
A quick thought....
If you can safely hook up a hosepipe in the kitchen to feed your portable Why not fit a pump into a box then sit it on the kitchen floor and hook up to the sink tap then directly feed your wand.
This would emmediatly get rid of the hosepipe running through the house and an electric cord
then first thing you would need to do when arriving is a dishwashing to empty the sink in many houses :)
Mike I have used auto dump, it never really seemed to work as it couldn't pump out as quick as you sucked in, that's cleaning at 300psi. Auto fill works great though but wouldn't use it unless I could connevt to an outside tap
-
A quick thought....
If you can safely hook up a hosepipe in the kitchen to feed your portable Why not fit a pump into a box then sit it on the kitchen floor and hook up to the sink tap then directly feed your wand.
This would emmediatly get rid of the hosepipe running through the house and an electric cord
then first thing you would need to do when arriving is a dishwashing to empty the sink in many houses :)
Mike I have used auto dump, it never really seemed to work as it couldn't pump out as quick as you sucked in, that's cleaning at 300psi. Auto fill works great though but wouldn't use it unless I could connevt to an outside tap
It doesn't empty right manually either :-X
I believe the mytee escape for example has a pumpout that can keep up ...
autofill often impractical , you see the Americans posting pics of their portables left in the customers ' restrooms ' with the dump hose sticking into the toilet , that wouldn't really be exceptable where i work anyway .
Back to the buckets ... only way i found to speed that up is ... two buckets
-
I'm not sure what vacuum motors are in this
http://carpet-cleaning-equipment.net/rotovac_CFX_powerpod.shtml
If I were a reach and wash cleaner and wanted to go into carpet cleaning as well then I would put this machine by the door and pipe water from my van you could dump the water into the rose bush or something.
Shaun
-
I'm not sure what vacuum motors are in this
http://carpet-cleaning-equipment.net/rotovac_CFX_powerpod.shtml
If I were a reach and wash cleaner and wanted to go into carpet cleaning as well then I would put this machine by the door and pipe water from my van you could dump the water into the rose bush or something.
Shaun
It is portable ! But i dont think many take to it , and i believe its pricy for what it is .
This is the sort of quotes i read about it ...
"I hated the CFX. Long setup and break down times because you have to hook up fresh water feed and APO for every job no matter how small. No water pump, marginal suction. I never ran more then 50' with a CFX and would get 18-24 hour dry times with a Rotovac. There are a lot better portables out there for less money. The only thing a CFX has going for it is that it is small. "
-
Who sells 1600w or 1800w electros and would they fit in a Powerflight cheers Darren.
We have them Darren. Looking to swap them out on our PFX1350 to trial next time they pop. As one of the machines is a courtesy/loan/hire machine it will no doubt go soon down to the abuse it gets.
Our machine doesnt have the extra fans and cooling of newer machines so we may need to look at that to keep the airflow through the case as the machine set up works those motors hard.
-
I think people shouldn't get hung up on equipment. I see customers every day with a variety of equipment from tiny Karchers to large truckmounts.
I don't recommend cleaning carpets with a Karche Puzzi but at least a twin vac machine. However what I do observe is no matter what equipment is utilised the successful cleaners are good businessmen. That is the main criteria in my view to be successful at carpet cleaning. Being able to make the phone ring and developing a customer base of good customers.
-
Jamie iam thinking of putting the electros in my Powerflight but don't no if it would be worth it as iam buying a new machine soon anyway.