Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: simonc on April 19, 2006, 03:31:28 pm
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At the moment we are using ProPlus andEclipse machines and looking for some new kit and find the CFR machine by Amtech of intrest....fed up of loading machines on larger jobs...and psi/extraction impressive at least on paper....any one out ther currently using/experienced on this topic..we do a lot of upholstery as well as lots of carpet....Regards Simon Coller
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Simon,
What do you currently clean with microsplitters or detergents?
Regards,
Arthur
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As for any machine get a real life demo.
CFR handtools are the best.
Mark
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A question for CFR users:
How is it important to have a heater or use a warm water working with CFR?
Some CFR 400 / ozone users say they use only cold water and get good results (domestic market). Others CFR 400 / ozone users say they fill the tank with the hot water from the tap and off they go (domestic market).
Does it make sense to have CFR 500 perfect heat or CFR 400 / ozone would be enough?
Regards,
Arthur
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Arthur, i have used cfr, and still use on occasions, cold water is fine if using m/s , having said that i do prefer to have heat , perhaps that is just because we beleive hot cleans better, and we are sceptical of just using cold, and to be fair i results have always been good with cold
geoff
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CFR is excellent.....................
rob m
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Excellent on sofa/upholstery
Average on some carpets.
Get a demo as the wands are not everyones taste.
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I'm pleased with my CFR400.
Carl and Steve Carpenter at Ametch were very helpful.
Alan
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Agree with the comment on floor tools............that is, the original roller wand which is pushed, rather than pulled during extraction.
rob m
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I agree with the comments by Alan and Geoff, particularly the notion that hot water is better. Although I get excellent results with my CFR400, using MS with a cold wash, I always feel that a hot rinse would produce better results. I am therefore toying with the idea of using an inline heater with a hot fill, and since the CFR machines recirculate the water, the temperature should be easier to maintain at a high level.
Do any other CFR users use an inline heater and get better results than with cold water?
Regards Alan
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alan word of caution when using an inline heater make sure you do not go over 200 degrees f as the hose is not designed for intense heat especially the conversion hose which will blow over this limit. regarding the wand the wonder wand is pulled rather than pushed and is the same design as the rollerwand with excellent drying times
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Hello Pete, Ordered your truckmount yet?
I sussed the cfr filters. Ive got two hydramaster stainless steel dry filters and have ordered two 50 micron hollander weave 'socks' to be made up that will slip over the top of them. These will neatly fit in either side of the ninja 'clean' tank. (almost twice the filter area of the cfr) ;D.
Hot water is only really necessary to speed up drying times and that's all. Pressure is used to 'shear' the dirt off of the fibres thereby suspending the dirt in the water, heat just isn't required for this.
Heat is required if you want to 'emulsify' the soil with a detergent, turning the water and the soil into one, if you like. If you do that in the cfr system you'll end up spraying greasy water back onto the carpet.
Incidentaly, if the water is being recycled at a high flow rate then why use an inline heater that is pressure sensitive and will require new componentry every once in a while? Surely a 3kw heater element makes more sense, because even with hot water from the tap at 500psi the carpet is dry in minutes rather than hours and it's a fit and forget item.
I swear the forward motion wand is the one to go for. On large commercial area's it's just a matter of getting the wand into your hip or groin area and just walking a lane with no stooping at all.
Hope this helps.
Alan
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Alan after two years of pushing the wand forward it nearly injured my back. Since going back to 'normal wand' ive had no problems. The thing that most annoyes me about all the cfr wands is having to bend down to use the cuff for bits of carpet after agitation. I wont miss that :)
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I know what you mean about the pushing because on some carpets it will pitch in which is why I find it a lot easier to rest the back of the wand into me then the slow walking pace is sufficient to push the wand without any strain at all.
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Alan if you say that using heat in the cfr system would cause the soil and water to mix why are they moving away from the 400 and making the perfect heat?
Not only have you the perfect heat system they put in a heat exchanger aswell
why not just make a cfr 500 or 750 that just uses cold water?
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Alan and Steve make valid points. I was always under the impression that heat was not used as it can 'emulsify' the soil and therefore not get caught by the filters, thus going back through the wand. As Steve says though, Cfr are now advocating heat!!
So what's the answer CFR?!
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The answer is to buy a proper machine that hot water extracts. Just a thought. Best, Dave.
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CFR are making the perfect heat system because they are a business and businesses are about profit.
The crowds want high heat to clean. It's not necessary, as CFR systems have a decade of proving. BUT if you have to adapt your services to your market to ensure good cross market recognition then 'so be it'.
A car manufacturer will produce a particular model of car that is considered groundbreaking and 'the way forward' but they will still produce all sorts of other models to meet the market needs and thereby a good profit margin. It's not unethical, just good business sense.
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hi alan yes i have ordered my truck mount will keep you posted
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A car manufacturer will produce a particular model of car that is considered groundbreaking and 'the way forward' but they will still produce all sorts of other models to meet the market needs and thereby a good profit margin. It's not unethical, just good business sense.
That's true Alan, but that's why CFR make the 'Powerflite' series, which is a 'traditional' type extractor, and caters for the people that don't like the recycling idea.
It still doesn't explain why heat wasn't a requirement for the recycling model, but now appears to be :-\ :-\
Similarly, it was always said that the system only required one vacuum motor, due to the tooling, but now they have two!! :-\ :-\
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As a representative of the main agent here for the CFR system I thought I’d set the record straight. CFR have sold a ‘heated’ extractor for many years (since 1985). The CFR Altra Heat 400 had a built-in 2400-watt in-line heater. Up until 3 years ago CFR extractors operated with a single 3-stage vacuum. The CFR Paramount 25 & CFR Paramount 40 (400 psi or 1000 psi pump options) and CFR Pro 750 (750 psi pump) still do!
CFR’s recycling solutions differ from conventional surfactants available in the fact that they do not liquefy soils, they separate soil from fibres so that solids sink to the bottom of the solution/recovery tank and oily soils float. Even when super heated water is used with the system soils are not liquefied with CFR’s detergent chemistry. We have never said use cold water to rinse with! Hot water assists the cleaning process and evaporates quickly. However, if hot water is not available then because of CFR’s unique rinsing/recovery action you will still get the desired cleaning result.
The filtration system engineered by CFR effectively filters “and cleans” the recovered solution back into the solution tank for continuous use. The filtration system, not unlike water filtration systems passes the solution through an extensive set of filters which are designed to remove soil from the solution allowing it to be used again. The system filters with 99%+ effectiveness and reuses the cleaning solution up to 7 times without the need to empty and refill.
For example, the CFR Pro 400 Station with a tank capacity of 28 litres and its recycling ability actually offers the operator up to 196 litres of useable cleaning solution in real terms. The larger Paramount Series offers 662-1060 litre working capacity depending on the particular model.
The CFR Work Stations offers much higher productivity without the need to continually empty and refill. For example, it is possible to clean 200 plus metres of heavily soiled carpet with one tank full (CFR Pro 400). In the domestic environment however, a three-piece suite and the carpets in a 3-4-bedroom house can easily be cleaned without emptying the tank.
With the CFR system, solution is always “in transit” while the solution from conventional extractors takes a “one way trip” into the carpet and up to 40% of it never makes it back to the machine due to gravitational pull. With CFR however, the solution is passed through the carpet fibres at such high speeds that gravity has no effect on the solution. Less than 10% of CFR solution is left in the carpet as a result of surface tension… and this starts to evaporate almost immediately.
One of the reasons CFR now supplies twin vacs and heat is simply through UK customer demand. Many customers couldn’t understand how the system could operate with such high pressure (up to a 1000 psi) and only have one vacuum.
Regards
Steve Carpenter
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Well written and clear response, to clarify the points raised by many who were unsure, or unconvinced........
I have always admired the system and have frequently said so, on here.
rob m
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Steve, it was indeed a very good post. However cfr at least in the U.S. has always promoted using cold water. As for your comment on the adjustments made to the machine for U.K. users........ as the adjustments then make a better machine is it fair to say they will keep making the adjustments untill they are similar to other machines out there......just an observation....... Also and I know this is being picky.....if you are using even as little ae 1% of soiled water to clean with then surely you wouldnt get the same result as using 0% of soiled water. If you have 10 gallons, 9 clean and 1 soiled and you went to clean carpets, how could you get the same results as using 10 gallons of clean water........ Lastly and always my point, when cfr accept a clean off challenge with my machine and or others as wishing to participate, then I will take them seriously, untill then how can I?.... Come on cfr and cfr users, if your machines are that good then lets see them work side by side under test conditions.
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Just one point,i dont know much about cfr (only what ive read on forums)
The filtration system engineered by CFR effectively filters “and cleans” the recovered solution back into the solution tank for continuous use. The filtration system, not unlike water filtration systems passes the solution through an extensive set of filters which are designed to remove soil from the solution allowing it to be used again. The system filters with 99%+ effectiveness and reuses the cleaning solution up to 7 times without the need to empty and refill.
For example, the CFR Pro 400 Station with a tank capacity of 28 litres and its recycling ability actually offers the operator up to 196 litres of useable cleaning solution in real terms. The larger Paramount Series offers 662-1060 litre working capacity depending on the particular model.
If the machine recovers 90% of solution put down then on after the tank has done one cycle the initial 28 litres =25,2 litres recovered, after the 2nd cycle =22.68 litres, 3rd =20.41, 4th =18.37, 5th =16.53, 6th =14.88, and finally 7th =13.39 litres, add these together and the final figure i come up with is 159.46 litres from a single tank,not the 196 quoted, Andy
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...If the machine recovers 90% of solution put down...
Andy, as I understood Steve was saying that more than 90% is recovered.
...Less than 10% of CFR solution is left in the carpet...
Regards,
Arthur
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Hi Liahona,
I understand what you are saying, and as a professional carpet cleaner with 17 years experience I had the same reservations about the system when first introduced to it. Like many others I like to dissect and verify information given about products before making a commitment to purchasing them. I will say though that the common misconception with the CFR system is that it cleans with ‘dirty water’ simply isn’t true, because if it were the case then you would make little impact on a soiled carpet.
With regard to independently testing The CFR system, this has been carried out both in the states (test cases available on CFR’s website) and here in the UK by Dr. Eric Brown and Paul Bakker of Cleaning Research International. They confirmed the systems ‘claimed’ recovery rate of 96% plus, and it’s recycling ability.
Regardless of system used though we cannot guarantee to remove all of the soiling from carpets and at best we are only offering a cosmetic clean. However, CFR’s tooling will recover more soiling from a carpet so that it is left cleaner than conventional systems.
Some manufacturers of conventional carpet extraction systems also say that recycling the cleaning solution is bad because it puts dirty water back into the carpet. This gives you a picture of dumping the contents of an extractor’s recovery tank back into the carpet… but, this is a false picture as CFR’s patented filtration system removes virtually all of the suspended solids from the solution before it is reapplied. In fact, once the soil saturation level within the solution reaches the point where it loses its cleaning effectiveness; the CFR Work Station automatically shuts down, telling you that it is time to change to new solution.
Over the last 6 years I have attended many Carpet Cleaners get togethers and have demonstrated the effectiveness of the CFR system, so if you want to organise a ‘Cleanitup’ get together in the near future then I would be more than happy to attend.
Regards
Steve Carpenter
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...With regard to independently testing The CFR system, this has been carried out both in the states (test cases available on CFR’s website) ...
Steve,
I have studied the CFR website, but could not find info about CFR OZONE machine. What I was actually looking for independent test reports of how "CFR OZONE" works/disinfects the carpet. Could you post a link to such reports here or e-mail them to me.
Thank you,
Regards,
Arthur
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Arthur, most machine manufacturers state that 80-90% of water is recovered, as you will know the recovery rate will vary slightly according to fabric type and depth, although i have never monitored closely my recovery rates i do notice slightly lower recovery on some carpet types,do you monitor recovery on your jobs Arthur?
Andy
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Thanks Steve. I'd hoped you were 'lurking', to clarify those points.
Regards
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...most machine manufacturers state that 80-90% of water is recovered...
Andy,
So far I have been thinking that the best way to find out the real recovery rate is by camparing solution and recovery tanks of carpet cleaning machines. For examle take a look at Advantage (http://www.alltec.co.uk/page/1gff/Portables/Advantage.html) - solution tank is 67 litres, waste tank is 35 litres or Karcher Puzzi 400 (http://www.karcher.co.uk/product.php?pr=173&vw=dt) - fresh water tank 45 litres and dirty water tank 18 liters or Galaxy Carpet Cleaner (http://www.vacuumcleaners4u.co.uk/details.php?pID=7253&cID=) - solution tank is 18 litres, waste tank is 12 litres.
However, I have found that some carpet cleaning machine's (Ninja or Steam Pro 2000) solution and recovery tanks are the same size or very similar size, but it would not mean that recovery rate is 100%.
As far as CFR recovery rate is concerned I am satisfyed with Steve respond, plus he is refering to an independant test conducted in the UK by Dr. Eric Brown and Paul Bakker of Cleaning Research International. I have seen CFR at work at 500 PSI and can tell that carpet was damp not wet.
Regards,
Arthur
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So Arthur if my solution tank holds say 50L and my waste 25L when ive finished cleaning and I have used 25L from the solution tank and have 25L in the waste that would mean I have 100% recovery rate. Its nothing too do with how much the tanks hold? You read too much just buy one!
CFR’s recycling solutions differ from conventional surfactants available in the fact that they do not liquefy soils, they separate soil from fibres so that solids sink to the bottom of the solution/recovery tank and oily soils float. Even when super heated water is used with the system soils are not liquefied with CFR’s detergent chemistry.
Steve are you saying only clean with CFR 's own chems then. What happens when you use Ms?
I enjoyed using my cfr, but im glad to be back using a 'normal' machine. I do remember cleaning quite a dirty carpet with ms then at the next customers house the first two strokes of the wand on a cream berber filled the carpet with dirt, that was dirt in the solution line from the previous house even though i had cleaned the machine and changed the water at the previous house.. It took a while to sort that berber which bugged me. I think that was the start of the end for me. Amtech have great customer care though which is a credit.
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...most machine manufacturers state that 80-90% of water is recovered...
Andy,
So far I have been thinking that the best way to find out the real recovery rate is by comparing solution and recovery tanks of carpet cleaning machines. For examle take a look at Advantage (http://www.alltec.co.uk/page/1gff/Portables/Advantage.html) - solution tank is 67 litres, waste tank is 35 litres or Karcher Puzzi 400 (http://www.karcher.co.uk/product.php?pr=173&vw=dt) - fresh water tank 45 litres and dirty water tank 18 liters or Galaxy Carpet Cleaner (http://www.vacuumcleaners4u.co.uk/details.php?pID=7253&cID=) - solution tank is 18 litres, waste tank is 12 litres.
However, I have found that some carpet cleaning machine's (Ninja or Steam Pro 2000) solution and recovery tanks are the same size or very similar size, but it would not mean that recovery rate is 100%.
As far as CFR recovery rate is concerned I am satisfyed with Steve respond, plus he is refering to an independant test conducted in the UK by Dr. Eric Brown and Paul Bakker of Cleaning Research International. I have seen CFR at work at 500 PSI and can tell that carpet was damp not wet.
Regards,
Arthur
The size of the recovery tank was not part of the question, nor was there any implication that the size of recovery tank gave any indication to a machines recovery capabilities,the question was do you ever monitor your recovery rates during cleaning?
While i do not doubt any claims made by anybody with regards performance without seeing the full situation myself i don't accept them either, the recovery rate varies slightly from job to job, dependant as i said on the material being cleaned,drying times will change according to temperature, humidity and airflow on the job, the operators wand technique will also effect recovery, Andy
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So Arthur if my solution tank holds say 50L and my waste 25L when ive finished cleaning and I have used 25L from the solution tank and have 25L in the waste that would mean I have 100% recovery rate...
Yes, Mark, that would mean you have 100% recovery, but not one carpet cleaning machine can achieve it, because carpet/upholstery absorbs a part of what you spray in, that is common sense. The common sense would not allow CC equipment producer to manufacture a machine where waste tank would have to be emptied before solution tank was empty.
...You read too much just buy one!...
Mark, could you advice which portable is the best on the market at this moment?
Thank you,
Regards,
Arthur
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Andy,
Have I ever mentioned that I got this or this result? No I have not. I believe I have never ever posted confusing posts. I am going to buy a CC machine after attending a hand on training organised by an experienced CC.
Regards,
Arthur
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I didnt suggest that you had posted anything confusing Arthur,I was just wondering why you were explaining the virtues of the cfr when you havent had chance to look its performance over a period of time involving the cleaning of differing types of materials in various situations,i personally dont own and have never had experience of driving a ferrari, and as such wouldnt be able to give what might be considered a fair opinion on them, same with skodas, i hope you see where im coming from,on the other hand i do own a 1970 1100cc mk1 escort and would love to point out that it does 600mph, 200mpg and never wears out tyres as it hovers 3 inches from the ground, if you need a good car i can sell it to you for £3,000,000, just my opinion as a saloon bar pundit, Andy ;D
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Arthur, have you cleaned a carpet on your own yet? What did you use?
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Yes Arther so once you know how much you have used in the solution tank and how much you have recovered in the waste tank you can work out your recovery rate(minus pre-spray). The waste tank is normally always smaller, normally because of components underneath the tank and because of the intakes for vacuum are in there. The size of tanks is irrelevant which was the point of my post above.
Operator technique as Andy points out is probably one of the biggest factors along with type of machine, type of carpet, psi used, and lots of other variables.
As for the best machine, only you can decide that. It will depend on your market, and what you feel is important. Everyone has a favorite machine, as long as it suits them and makes them good money then its a good machine. Go out with as many cc's as you can, have a go with as many different machines as possible, only then will you know which is best for you. You wont find your best machine by reading these boards only whats available ;) For me it was a toss up between the latest Ninga and a Scopion, i went with a scorpion and am more than pleased. I hope you find a machine that suits you and not these boards!
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I 'm not sure, but it seems like, a least couple of months, since Arthur started posting pedantic nonesense and even admitted, ' he's only thinkinking about carpet cleaning '
Seems to me, if someone is only able to see the Black and White, they will never be happy and to my mind are NEGATIVE !
If you want success, you seek out and mix with positive individuals who, basically are, do'ers rather than talkers, or thinkers.
All this gent' does is cause argument and cloud issues rather than contribute in a constructive way to debate.
As I've said before.
I can't figure out exactly where he's coming from........but, then I live in the real world and trust my judgement enough, to ' get out and get on with it '
ROB M
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...Arthur started posting pedantic nonesense ...
Rob, I would like you to quote ::) an example of the above.
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Added later:
In the mean time here are two of your nonsense posts (http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=17905.0#msg142681)
Regards,
Arthur
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...Arthur,I was just wondering why you were explaining the virtues of the cfr...
Andy, before buying anything, which cost several hundreds pounds (digital camera, camcorder, computer or car), I do a comprehensive research. The same applies to a carpet cleaning machine.
There is nothing magic about CFR, but their wand is different then others and mainly (not just) because of the wand construction they can achieve such high recovery.
Now, without any real experience I feel I can say what I have said here on the forum because I of the theoretical knowledge I have gained. However, Andy, if you read my posts, you will see that I still asking a lot of questions about carpet cleaning. So despite I am sure about some aspects of carpet cleaning process/equipment, I still learning, but not teaching.
Regards,
Arthur
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Arthur, there comes a time to stop reading and to put some of your theoretical knowledge into practice, cleaning carpets in your head wont earn money, cleaning carpets on floors will, which is why i have said in the past that the best thing to get a new cc up and running is to take in some hands on training, most, if not all manufacturers courses cover carpet construction and testing techniques along with practical hands on supervised practice.
If i had dithered about for months when i started not so long ago i would by now probably have been bankrupt and homeless, instead i got on with it and have roughly £1.50 in the bank and some bread in the cupboard, if next weeks good to me i shall have butter to go on the bread,as i was once told,
winners never quit, quitters never win, or another one, run with the runners, walk with the walkers, but NEVER sit with the sitters, Andy
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There is nothing magic about CFR, but their wand is different then others and mainly (not just) because of the wand construction they can achieve such high recovery.
Did i tell you about the exhaust on that mk1 escort Arthur, its made of gold and cleans the fumes so they smell of roses,as you hover down the road in it you can look in your rear view mirror and see that people who you just passed are now skipping down the pavement singing and small children have a look on their faces like they do on christmas morning, it can even make the nastiest of dogs roll over and let the postman rub their bellies, but then come next week their will be something better out there with even better tricks up its sleeve, Andy ;D
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Arthur
Theory is fine if what you have learned can be applied successfully. You also need practice, and you will find you will learn a lot when you are actually out there cleaning carpets. Remember the old adage------ that there are a lot of educated idiots out there. I am not knocking education, but some people have no common sense, having all theory and no experience.
The therapist is correct about the difference between carpet cleaners. Try different products to find what works well for you, and remember to keep learning and re-evaluate your techniques and working practices from time to time to enable people to be able to differentiate between you the professional and the splash and dash merchant.
Dave
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Andy,
I have got a small domestic cleaning business (http://www.cleaningforyou.co.uk)... Carpet cleaning would be an addition.
Regards,
Arthur
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Dave,
...I am going to buy a CC machine after attending a hand on training organised by an experienced CC...
I just want to make sure that I am going to get the equipment I need.
Regards,
Arthur
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Arthur
But think of all the carpets you could be cleaning whil'st codgitating over which machine to buy.
A lot of carpet cleaners have bought a machine and may wish they had bought something else, but they are still making money. In oher words, they have had a taster. Now when it comes to replacing the machine maybe several years down the road, they are now more knowledgeable about machines.
When i bought my Extracta Excel i started cleaning carpets and learned. Then i happened upon Prochem training courses, i then saw their machines and thought they are better than min'e but i carried on, made a mental note to buy a Prochem one the next time. Also Alltec machines i liked.
You cannot always go by what other people think of a product.
Dave
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Dave
I thought your reply was spot on ;D
All machines have pros and cons
I pre vac - spay chem - plus heat- sebo agitate - great results (cleaning pie) - use prowchem powermax to rinse - brilliant kit
Arthur
there is no magic carpet cleaning bullet - no hotwater cc extracta is the answer.
Cfr offers a cleaning system as all of them do.
500 psi with cold dirty water - i think i will stick with what i know best.
Doug
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codgitating
Codgitate; to agitate cod ;D
Andy
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OK.
I forgot..........we are dealing with a ''fount of all knowledge '' and we, although earning a living, in some cases a substantial living, from simply ...........doing, rather than pedantically pontificating ( and it's only 7.40 ) are really the students at the feet of the King...........but, wait a minute...............did'nt he die several ceturies ago ?
While I love discussion and banter and truly love to help people succeed and better themselves.........there always has to be positive response from the ' student' or it becomes pointless.
I my post seemed sarcastic, there was good reason.
A lot of decent, knowledgable and hard working people populate these forums and negativity simply leads to doubt.
In their own words, a few others have echoed my thoughts and I feel if someone is not listening, there comes a time, when I, personally, will quit on them, as they probably will never listen, anyway.
Nuff' said, must stay calm, as six days ago, my heart decided to scare the s..t out of me and give me a very strong hint that my, twin jet should be hung up, for the last time.
Fabulous cloud free morning up here,
Have a good life
rob m
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...Arthur started posting pedantic nonesense ...
Rob, I would like you to quote ::) an example of the above...
OK
...I my post seemed sarcastic, there was good reason....
...a few others have echoed my thoughts and I feel if someone is not listening, there comes a time, when I, personally, will quit on them, as they probably will never listen, anyway...
Rob,
If this ::) is all what you could say to support your previous statement then obviously you have nothing to say...
Have a happy retirement...
Regards,
Arthur
P.S. You have suggested that there are other producers of recycling machine:
The concept is far from new and is not exclusive to AMTECH. it's about 8 years since I was introduced to re cycling machines and microsplitters.
r m
When Ian asked you:
Rob,
Who else makes these recycling machines.
You did not answer.
Just another example ::) of you talking nonsense.
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Hi arthur,
I hope you dont mind me giving you some cc advice,I know you are looking at lots of different machines for your buisness and when you read posts it is easy to get caught up with the power of one machine vs another this system and that system.I looked at your website and carpet cleaning is only a small part of your buisness at the moment anyway. So i think a standard machine prochem powermax etc is the way to start. Its easy to use will handle the sort of jobs you will get say from existing cleaning customers.Its light and easy to get upstairs to flats etc. More powefull machines tend to heavier and a little bit tempermental.Something like the cfr 500 while a very well made machine i think is for the more experianced cc .Its great if you are doing lots of carpet,quick drying times excellent results just more maintence in the way of cleaning out filters etc. perhaps a second machine when the cc grows
Its only my opinon though.
cheers steve.
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Thanks Steve
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Arthur, I have received some very good advice from people on here, especially when i first started to clean carpets, some of the questions must of appeared when looking back rather silly to experianced cc's but they answered them, there is a great wealth of knowledge on this and other forums, this i find being the one that will get you the answers in an unbiased manner without one companies products being plugged constantly, go on, have a go, clean a few carpets (you will need to put the books down for practical reasons) and give yourself something proper to think about rather than worrying about what machine recovers what percentage of water, Andy
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I don't spend all day on here.........my visits are occasional, sometimes with gaps of weeks.......
I have on occasions, posted and possibly had a reply which has disappeared of the page before I return to a topic.
Neither do I keep a log of every site I visit, in fact I find it hard to use this piece of equipment efectively.
Whatever drives your need, to show everyone how clever you are, at picking up little discrepancies, could be put to better use.............
You come accross as a typical administrator, whose need is to be tidy and keep people on their toes, pointing out all their faults...........
Ian Gourley and I have agreed and disagreed on occasions as have others, but we either forgive or ignore minor indiscretions and concentrate on the bigger picture.
If I failed to post a reply, it would'nt be the first time, or the last.
The reason, was not to insult, or ignore, or to have posted a lie, but probably, because I was unable to find the American sites referred to, but I assume other people are just as inquisitive as me and seek out these sites through search engines.
I'm NOT retiring......
I have wrecked my body through hard work, martial arts and carelessness and my heart has given me a very clear message.........but I'm in my 62nd year, soooooooooooooo!
Ian
Still can't remember the site for other machines, but I probably found it by using basic search techniques.
Arthur........it's Easter......a time of re birth..........enjoy
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hi arthur i think steve cardy is giving you sound advice remember he has 20 yrs experience at cleaning carpets. also i can back up his statement as i started with the powermax and find it a great little machine for the price it can easily be carried upstairs if need be and coupled with an in line heater its just fine. i know a couple of c/cs who have been in the game for many years who still have the said machine and find it ok. once your carpet cleaning side kocks off and you want to have more psi then you can still use it for a back up machine. regards pete
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If you learn how to use the machine properely you dont need a BIG psi or power, it all comes with expierence Chris and I have over 35yrs expierence between us and i use a powemax he uses a diamondback, its the operator NOT the machine that gets the results.
We have all heard stories and seen carpets been badly cleaned by operators with TM's and powerfull portables dont try to run before you can walk.
So if i was you go for a powermax or similar entry level machine.
Regards
Nick
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Thank you Andy Peter Nick for your constructive comments and advice.
If you learn how to use the machine properely you dont need a BIG psi or power...
Nick, I could not agree with you more, however I am not after the power feature in CFR. It is CFR tools, what I like, as they minimise drying time and reduce risk of over-wetting. To my understanding the CFR tools require higher PSI then an entry portable can deliver and at the same time as a high PSI would require/consume more water, then conventional tools, the recycling feature is essential.
That is why CFR package looks so attractive to me, not the cheapest however. Or am I missing something?
Regards,
Arthur
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Arthur,
The truth is you can get the same cleaning results regardless of what type of equipment you use, truckmount, portable, cfr etc. The most important part of any clean is the operator. I have all of these machines at my disposal and depending on type of job, access, water, etc, will dictate the type of equipment I will use. You will get the same drying times using say a powermax as you would using a truckmount, but it takes preparation from the operator to achieve the desired results. The best thing about the cfr has got to be the upholstery tool, an absolutely brilliant piece of kit. But you can use this with an ordinary portable or truckmount. I have used the upholstery tool with a 100psi machine and it works great.
Derek
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Arthur,
Do what everyone else does,select a machine, spend your money and get on with doing the job, there's no magic formula.
Arthur
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Arthur,
Do what everyone else does,select a machine, spend your money and get on with doing the job, there's no magic formula.
Arthur
Well said, hit it in a nutshell! ;D
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So AJ what's your considerations as to the machine your supposedly going to buy?? as i can't see what additional advice your going to get????????????
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i too have used the cfr tools with the powermax and got good results with extremely quick drying times.
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Thank you Andy Peter Nick for your constructive comments and advice.
If you learn how to use the machine properely you dont need a BIG psi or power...
Nick, I could not agree with you more, however I am not after the power feature in CFR. It is CFR tools, what I like, as they minimise drying time and reduce risk of over-wetting. To my understanding the CFR tools require higher PSI then an entry portable can deliver and at the same time as a high PSI would require/consume more water, then conventional tools, the recycling feature is essential.
That is why CFR package looks so attractive to me, not the cheapest however. Or am I missing something?
Regards,
Arthur
By a powermax and use a drimaster handtool then??!!
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Get a job as a researcher, sounds like you're never gonna get round to carpet cleaning ;D FOOOUUURRR PAGES of chat ??? ::) Good grief
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Im currently looking at reinventing the wheel and could do with somebody to carry out customer surveys on the project mainly to assertain the best shape for the product, it would take somebody with special skills to be able to extract this information from the general public in a stealthy manner, they may also be required to spy on wheel production units and manufacturers research and development departments, just to ensure that the competition isnt coming up with anything revolutionary, anybody who feels they have what it takes to fill this role and continue their carpet cleaning business, real or imagined can contact me by telepathic messaging, thanks, Andy
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I'm thinking a magnetic hub with a reverse polarity rim ::) ;D
Do I get the job or is it only for daydreamers ??? ;D
Alan
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Sorry Alan,but by displaying enough initiative to find a solution without carrying out pointless research I think you may find yourself better suited to carpet cleaning or some other practical role, Andy ;D
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Tag teaming with a veangance ;D
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and tagging so well.........I am not sure with whom against but I have a clean off to do tomorrow. Who ever cleans better as to be judged by their "inspector" will end up with the cleaning contract. Please note I am not after the contract but do want to take part. I am not aware of the stipulations of the test either but will keep you informed. I am going to bring with me a carpet that I have had soiled to "testing condition" as well. You should know me well enough now that I am not worried in the slightest but will keep you informed....At least someone out there is confident enough to put themselves against someone else, maybe I shold be worried.......best, Dave.
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Baited breath, Dave and looking forward to the results .
rob m
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Rob, I will go into all that happened later on maybe via e-mail. Via e-mail so as to keep a lot of comments off of the posts. The reason for this is because I dont want to cause a riot and you have always been objective in your postings and comments made that I know it would be ok to speak my mind. For the record though...... The tech who I was against who was a nice bloke but came prepared with a Texatherm system. Need I say more???? The "inspector" of which was part of his company said on meeting me and my system that it wasnt fair for me to use my machine against theirs. Funny I thought that was the whole idea. Anyway if needs be I will continue on here but I leave that up to those members reading this and if at all interested. Best, Dave.
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Im always interested to hear of comparisons being made in a fair environment, it could make interesting reading so im for it, what machine do you use Dave? Andy
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I am very interested in hearing how this went. I am considering upgrade options from a small portable and comments and observations made assist in this process.
It would be a shame if this information were not shared.
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In which case I will write on here all that happened. Not now though as I have a boat load of things to do and I have a football tournament to ref at and play in this weekend. Best, Dave...... Also I want to find out a bit more about the chemicals that are for the Texatherm system as both people concerned didnt have a clue about what they were using or why.
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Ok, here goes. Please note in some cases the lack of continueity as I may just list "things". I had thought that I would be cleaning against, we will call him Tim, under or at least some sort of test conditions. However he had thought it best to just turn up and clean against him on a church that he had the contracts to clean. ......Not a problem.....Tim could not clean in and amongst fixed chairs similar to cinema seats.......... not clean to corners........ not clean stairs.......... not clean entrance matting as it tore up his pads.......... not clean vinyl areas.......not clean tiled areas....... not clean concrete walk ways...........goodness knows what chemicals he was using, at this point I add that he was using Texatherms chemicals but the containers had no information on them as to what they were, ph wise or anything wise........... He did HAVE to use gloves though and the resulting smell from the pre-spray inparticular was quite irratating. Tim at this point had said that it caused him breathing problems, small places being a huge problem....... cant clean bad spots and stains as to Tims words it isnt an extraction sysytem so it doesnt work the same way or get the same reults........cant clean at sustained heat........There were many other limitations I felt but thought these were more down to the technician so not a problem, things like he didnt move any furniture type of thing.........The carpet I brought with me wasnt used as again Tims "inspector" felt that it was un fair to use my machine against theirs........In contrast to the cant clean list above, the machine that I use can indeed clean all that was listed, with standard attachments and un-like Tims the machine sustains heat to the carpet being cleaned.......... My biggest concern was the chemicals being used. None of the containers had any information on them as to the p.h. I thought this was nonsense as, how are you to know what is for what. Tim said that he used an acid to pre-spray with and an alkali to rinse with, bass ackward if you ask me but again how is one to know if it doesnt say on the container. I went to Texatherms web site and there safety sheets have no information on any of their chemicals as to the p.h. How the blazes can you use a chemical to clean something when you dont know what it is in the first place??? and dont you have to label the p.h. of a chemical solution. All my chemicals are labelled with all sorts of info and inparticular the p.h..........Please note that Tim and I got on very well and had a laugh comparing the 2 machines and then cleaning the church. The inspector wasnt so pleased though as now realises that Tims machine is one step off of useless in this situation. ..... Apart from the chemical issues I can see that this system certainly can have some uses, however cleaning this church and or against the system I use there is no need for it, ever!!!!!...... I understand that it is low moisture which is fine but as to if it can out clean the system I use or any truck mount for that matter, you are having a laugh.....Would you wash your hair by just spraying it with a shampoo and then rubbing it with a wet towel? I think not. Anyway, at least someone had the dangly bits to offer his system up to be tested against another one. I hope there is a cfr tech out there willing to do the same thing, however I am not holding my breath. Again I do understand there are times where Texatherm and the cfr's of this world might be used and so not knocking them.............As always, best, Dave.
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Andy, sorry mate..... I use.....Powermatic Legacy 2100......from Steamway International. To my limited knowledge there are only three in Britain. One in Scotland, one in Ireland and I have the third. Actually I have 2 more but they are still being used in the states. Best, Dave.
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Dave
I have just read your comments and i think you have carried out a very fair assessment rather than an outright character assasination. I have often thought about the limitations of these systems, but if you dare to mention them on this forum, people who use them will leap to its defence.
Like you i have made the statement a while ago that they do have their uses in the right place where establishments such as educational buildings etc have them cleaned on a regular basis, but other than that, no.
The proof of the pudding is in seeing one in action which you now have and it seems logical to me that without extracting out dirt, nothing is ever clean.
I gotta go now as i have a load of washing to do. I am going to use a damp cloth and some solutions on them to see if they will dry a bit quicker. I hope it will remove grass stains. ::)
Dave
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Well then Dave
There will be a few swelling chests out there today, when the t/m boys read this and, of course, everything you've said, is accurate............but. the Texatherm owners can still do a decent job for a market sector, mainly commercial, where a regular programme is in place.
I understand you're enthusiasm and determination to show your machines and your own ability, to tackle much more, than the basic .......carpet and upholstery cleaning, although I suspect it was considerably more than what was required by the client, on this occasion.
You were correct to point out the lack of information on the containers and fair to point out, that the system, may well have proven better, in other hands.
Hope the Tex' guy was'nt too disillusioned and gets himself down to Tex for a day's training.
rob m
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Thanks for the comments Rob. Indeed I agree with you in that I think the Texatherm system has a place in the c/c market even though of its drastic limitations. As a maintenance clean it would be very handy. With regards my comments and accordingly yours, I am concerned with their chemicals. As he rinsed or bonneted if thats a word with an alkali wouldnt that in theory leave a residue. But again I looked at the chemicals he was using and had no idea of it being acidic or alkali, just that he had said so and I had no reason to doubt. Perhaps the Tex's on this forum can help me out. I hate to say this but wouldnt the health and sdafety people have a field day with the chemicals with no identity, labelled or on the msds sheets. The same surely applies if you had to take someone to the hospital heaven forbid and you couldnt advise what chemicals the "patient" had been exposed too. May be different here but in the U.S. you would be sued to hell and never clean again. Best, Dave.
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Hiya Dave,
I'm ashamed to admit that I never checked the ph values, but I'd expect the prespray
to be alkaline and the ' rinse ' to be acid, as this is usually the case.
I'm pretty sure the Tex' people will give a response to those comments, as I believe, they are decent and genuine people and very helpful to purchasers of their system.
happy days
rob m
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Rob, I am going to give the Tex people a bell tomorrow and see if I can find out about their chemicals. I agree with you about the order of first an alkali and then an acid but "Tim" certainly said the other way around. That was why previously I felt this came under operator error and not the norm......Again to the Tex people on here, what is the deal???? What do you use for what and do you know the ph of what it is that you are using? Tim had mentioned that he got very limited results out of cleaning wool carpets in a domestic situation. This would be due to the so say acid then an alkali rinse but as we have both said, surely this isnt the case. Please let me know, cheers, best, Dave.
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regarding ph i like to play safe and test the carpet first and then leave it with a similar reading when i have finished providing it is in the safe zone
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carpet clean, I understand that but still my question is....how do you know the ph of Tex's chemicals when they arent on the container or the safety sheets??? Best, Dave....Untill we or the tech knows that how would we know what to use??
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I got in touch with Texatherm to ask the obvious questions. Apparently it is not a health and safety issue to have to have the p.h. info on their containers or their msds sheets......and arent beaking any laws by not doing so......... Apart from the EEC, world wide it is required to have that info....... Those who bye the Tex system are trained in what is for what and would know the relevant ph's. If it is then sold on to another person that info would not go with it so to speak. I see a serious problem with this as from time to time most systems are sold to another person at some time or another. Tex agreed with those thoughts but of course have no control over them.. My better half is an orthopeadic trauma nurse but also works on A and E on many occasions. When a chemical instant occurs one of the first assesments is to the p.h. of the chemical. Even though apparently it is not a legal requirement (Deb doesnt know either way), surely for this reason alone it should be labelled........ but just my opinion. .... The Tex man although all for his system did suggest it has limitations. The entrance matting for one (which I found out last week) but also on berber carpeting. Other than that he advised that it should clean quite well. He also suggested it should out perform the portable hwe that I use....... But I dont use a portable, anyway........Think I will stick to my machine, best , Dave