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UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: AquaMagic on April 19, 2006, 11:46:24 am

Title: MS or Detergent?
Post by: AquaMagic on April 19, 2006, 11:46:24 am
After reading how good Microspliters are i used them on my first few jobs and was impressed to say the least, however i recently read on another forum the opinions of some carpet cleaners who believe although microsplitters work they think they dont produce as good results as detergent based chemicals.  Although i can see this argument turning into the same stuation as the age old battle between Portable & Truckmount (please dont start on this again) i would like to hear impartial opions on preffered chemicals.  I understand of course that different carpets and levels of staining require diffenent chemicals but you still can go either MS or Detergent for the majority of jobs.  I will of course test different chemicals m,yself and see which one suits me best as im told the hardness or water in different areas can also effect the effectiveness of chemicals from one cc to the next, but id like to hear peoples opinions on this?

Many thanks

Dene

Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: Steve Chapman on April 19, 2006, 12:19:07 pm
Hi dene,
All i can say is that i changed over to ms after using prochem detergents and after about a month swapped back again, as i was finding it a lot harder using the ms, although i do agree they work, alot more aggitation is needed for it to do the job, and IMHO this is a step backwards.
The water is very hard where we are and maybe this is part of the problem and we do alot of carpets that are trashed by tenants and have found that prochem products while a bit pricey do the job hands down with minimum fuss, and at the end of the day thats what we want :D
regards steve
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: Phil Marlor on April 19, 2006, 06:17:34 pm

I was again told by someone very much in the know a few weeks ago that Microsplitters is just purified water.

I do use them, but to be honest i dont know what's the best out there, microsplitters or detergent, its a minefield trying to work out which is best.

Rgds
Phil
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: Graeme@Access on April 19, 2006, 06:39:33 pm
Phil,

I can assure you that MS are not purified water.  They are phosphates and there is no doubt about it.

check out the prochem site and look at the MSDS for their splitter
>> http://www.prochem.co.uk/safety%20data%20sheets/sdsc409.pdf

Its called pure clean so if the link doesnt work at least you can find it  ;).

We allways use detergents unless there is a worry over chemicals (people seem really afraid for some reason).  Wonder what they wash their dishes with... as the chemicals are pretty much the same in a really general sense.

Alas, in our (rather inadequate) tests we have found that MS require much more agitation to gain the same results.   To save on time (arguably fibre abrasion) and effort in agitating, we use detergents.

Hope this helps

Graeme Thurston
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: Everbrite on April 19, 2006, 08:10:29 pm
I have tried M/S but find them useless have gone back to the old ways much better results.
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: gwrightson on April 19, 2006, 09:25:15 pm
everbrite , i suggest you try using them correctly, persevere and i am sure your results will improve
look at the benifits to your customers,
 Geofff
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: Jason Hedges on April 20, 2006, 11:10:27 pm
I cant remember the last time I used detergents. I've been using splitters for a while now and am really please with the results I'm getting. They do take some getting used to and definately need a lot more aggitation than but on the plus side you're only using one solution then rinsing with plain water and there's no dwell time.

Kind regards,
Jason.
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: AJCleaningServices on April 20, 2006, 11:17:38 pm
... the plus side you're only using one solution then rinsing with plain water and there's no dwell time...

John,
Does it make make any difference whether you use cold or warm water for rinsing?
Regards,
Arthur
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: Jason Hedges on April 20, 2006, 11:33:44 pm
Hi Arthur, think this post was for me (Jason) ;)

Yes I always use hot water to rinse but I'm using a normal 135psi portable and not a super powered cfr or similar!

I put hot water into my machine from the tap (if available) first of all and leave it being heated more by the internal heater while I vac, pre-spray and aggitate.

By the time I'm ready to extract the water is very hot 

I also use hot water to mix the splitter up with. It doesn't stay hot for long after traveling through the air and coming into contact with a cold carpet but it makes me feel better and seems to give better results!

Kind regards,
Jason

Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: AJCleaningServices on April 20, 2006, 11:38:19 pm
Hi Arthur, think this post was for me (Jason) ;)...

Sorry  :-[ Jason,  :-[ thanks for respond. Arthur
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: Jason Hedges on April 20, 2006, 11:44:55 pm
Hi Arthur,

No worries mate, hope the info was of some help.

Kind regards,
Jason.
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: AJCleaningServices on April 20, 2006, 11:52:01 pm
Jason, thank you  ;)

I am thinking of buying a CFR, but still not sure which one.
CFR 500 perfect heat has a heater
CFR 400 has not got a heater but it cost less
CFR ozone has not got a heater, but it has “built in ozone”
Which model is the best for domestic market ???

Regards,

Arthur
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: Jason Hedges on April 21, 2006, 12:47:49 am
Hi Arthur,

I'm still unsure yet tempted by the cfr concept. I love the recycling water idea but am unsure about the cold / dirty water cleaning process! This subject has been spoken about many times on here and some love the process and others not so sure.

I love cleaning with hot water, I wouldn't clean my dishes, clothes or van with cold water so why a carpet?

The added power must contribute but re-using water well?

Its up to the individual but for the time being its not for me.

However I'd love to spend some time working with someone that uses the cfr system to convince me otherwise.

Kind regards,
Jason.

 
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: Derek on April 21, 2006, 06:49:23 am
With all machines and chemicals its down to the technician who is doing the job.

Some can't get on with micro-splitters some think they are great
Look how many different machines are featured in the threads of this and other forums and each technician thinks his/hers is the best.  To the point sometimes they get quite upset if another cleaner doesn't rate their particular make of machine.

The technician makes the machine work!

A good technician will get the best out of his machine!

All chemicals work well providing you follow the manufacturers instructions and also, more importantly, follow the correct cleaning procedures.


Take short cuts and the performance is reduced of both machine and chemical
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: AJCleaningServices on April 21, 2006, 10:06:05 am
...I wouldn't clean my dishes, clothes or van with cold water so why a carpet?...

Jason,

That is a good example of how chemicals can work.  I am sure that washing-up liquid would clean dishes well no matter whether you use cold or hot water, however with hot water you would need less time to complete the job - four fundamentals of soil suspension apply no matter what you clean 8) ;D.

...I love the recycling water idea but am unsure about the cold / dirty water cleaning process!

...However I'd love to spend some time working with someone that uses the cfr system to convince me otherwise...

During CARPEX I attended seminar about CFR OZONE machine.  The CFR representative in respond to claims that CFR uses dirty water to clean carpets suggested a simple test.  I think he called it a "wait shirt test".  He said that as you start cleaning carpet water in the machine becomes yellow/brown, but it is not dirty.  He said that you can do the "wait shirt test" marking a wait shirt with recycled water that you have cleaned the carpet with and see that after the shirt drys there will be no dirty marks on it. 

I have not done it and have not heard from anybody who done something like this, however the CFR representative was very confident talking about the "wait shirt test".   

With all machines and chemicals its down to the technician who is doing the job...
...The technician makes the machine work!
A good technician will get the best out of his machine!...

Could not agree more.

Regards,

Arthur

P.S. There is a saying that a bad dancer always complains about his balls.  ;D

Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: Everbrite on April 21, 2006, 11:16:50 am
Hi Geoff I have tried all makes and followed their instructions but i still go back to chemicals, looks like M/S dont work for every body or we all have different standards.
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: Derek on April 21, 2006, 04:03:36 pm
Arthur

It was the 'white' shirt test
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: Jason Hedges on April 21, 2006, 04:15:51 pm
Nice one Derek,

I thought thats was Arthur meant but wondered if the cfr rep was Irish ;D
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: AJCleaningServices on April 21, 2006, 04:20:13 pm
Arthur

It was the 'white' shirt test
Nice one Derek,

I thought thats was Arthur meant but wondered if the cfr rep was Irish ;D

Lol  ;D thank you, Derek, for pointing me on my spelling mistake.  I am Lithuanian. :)
Regards,
Arthur
 
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: AJCleaningServices on April 21, 2006, 04:25:43 pm
...I thought ... if the cfr rep was Irish ;D

Jason,
CFR representative was American, from Texas.  ;D
Regards,
Arthur
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: Jason Hedges on April 22, 2006, 12:01:31 am
Hi Arthur,

Only joking buddy just didn't have time to reply to your post. Glad to see you have a sence of humour ;D.

You're right cold water will clean but will need a bit more elbow grease than hot.

Putting recycled water on a white shirt would be something to see. I'm sure if the rep said there would be no dirty marks left then they have done it before.

I have seen the cfr machines demo'd and notice the mesh filters catch fluff and large pieces of dirt but the brown water with small particles still circulate. I wouldn't want that on my only white shirt (think the last time I wore a white shirt was at school!).

As Derek said earlier it's the technician that makes the difference not the products or equipment (to a certain degree).

Everyone to their own!

Kind regards,
Jason.




Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: therapist on April 22, 2006, 10:27:16 am
Everbrite

Your sarcasm says more about you, than you might realise, unless, of course, the use of the word '' standards '' was an error.
I hope so, as your assertion in a direct insult to many people, who may work to considerably higher standards than yourself........myself included.

I have, over 20 plus years tried just about every product and system that's come on the market, including M/S, when it first appeared about 7 or 8 years ago.

A few products impressed me '' greatly '' and those are the ones I tended to favour..........

Ironically.........two of the least expensive products, have given me the highest percentage of my income and would never have done so, unless I was happy with their performance.

Ultimately, I agree with Derek  Bolton and would add that............the standards we claim to work to, are not always the standards we achieve.

I've been around too long and seen too many individuals, who claim and often actually believe, that they work to the highest standars.............when they don't and, sadly, never will, because it has to be within your persona, to  '' go the extra mile ''

this is not directed at anyone in particular, but intended to alert some, to the fact, that,  their high standards might not be anywhere near mine, or, more importantly ..............ther clients'

When you have'nt advertised for a couple of years, but the 'phone keeps ringing............youv'e probably got it right.

rob m

Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: Liahona on April 28, 2006, 11:58:04 pm
Rob, always a pleasure to read what you write...... Looking through these posts on here a few comments have been made about if our water we are using to clean with is hard or soft. I have a water softener fitted in the van as I am sure a lot of truck mounted cleaners do but for the portable cleaners out there be it Texatherm cfr's or just small portables .....I am sure if you soften the water however best you deem better than another way to do so , then the resulting clean will be so much better than if hard water is being used......better results....less chemical use.......better image.......maybe even agitate less......but I dont agitate at all so not sure why it appears so important to do so with m/s. Maybe someone using them can tell me why they need agitating?.... Best, Dave.
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: spickandspan on May 01, 2006, 01:08:13 am
M/s rubbish
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: Mike Halliday on May 01, 2006, 07:23:06 am
spiknspan,

thank you for that intellectual  & informative answer ;)

Mike
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: gwrightson on May 01, 2006, 10:13:03 am
sick and spam, how can you quote m/s are rubbish?
 either you are not using correctly, or you are just too set in your ways, and dont wish to see how good m/s are. I would hazzard a guess and say , a combination of both is most likely!!
   I suggest you give them another go,or go out with some c/c for a couple of days who knows how to use them .
 they are not the the answer to every thing, but with statments like yours, it smacks of incompetence on your part
  Out of intertest, what do you use?
  geoff
Title: Re: MS or Detergent?
Post by: therapist on May 01, 2006, 04:00:57 pm
Similar response to mine Geoff, which I posted in response to s and s comments on another post.

rob m