Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Tony Rowley on December 29, 2014, 01:54:33 pm
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Received this email on Saturday regarding a carpet I cleaned on the 22nd:
" I am contacting you in relation the carpets you cleaned at the above address on 22 December. Unfortunately, at least the carpet in our middle bedroom has been water damaged. We had carpets fitted elsewhere in the house and the carpet fitters needed to lift the carpet in the middle bedroom. This revealed that the carpet in the middle room has been delaminated. The carpet fitters' view was that too much water had been used and that it was not possible to repair the carpet. We may have a similar problem with the other bedroom carpets but we would need to lift them to find out. For the time being, please just consider this as being a notification in relation to middle bedroom. The carpet in the middle bedroom was only fitted about 6 months ago so we do think that the damage could have been caused by anything else.
I have attached pictures of the middle room carpet. As you will see, it is clear that the carpet is delaminated. You will also see the area which seems to have had too much water applied to it (there is clearly a patch that had much more water applied than the rest of the carpet). The carpet fitters have tacked the top layer of the carpet into the door bar as a temporary measure but there is already bunching and movement where the top layer is now detached from the backing.
We will need to have the carpet replaced and expect the cost to be met by you or your insurer so please can you let me know how you would like to proceed?"
I have never been presented with this problem before and I will be passing this to my insurers to deal with but wanted to ask is it possible/probable that I have caused the problem? would the carpet delaminate in 24 hours? (http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1419861225_IMG_7091.JPG)(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1419861233_IMG_7093.JPG)
Any thoughts appreciated.
Tony
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Does look like its been over wet, clearly the carpet fitter told them about delamination they would not ordinarily know that term.
Cheap carpet poorly constructed, as this is, with a weak backing adhesive can break down pretty quickly especially with moisture, aggressive use of the wand on soiled areas and time.
Looks like you may have a a claim on your hands but of course you are perfectly at liberty to have it inspected yourself, maybe pay a visit, see if other areas are still damp or delaminating and if they are holds your hands and admit it, you can still win the situation around with good after service.
You never know you might be able to trace it back to a radiator pipe under the boards or similar, we had this with a pipe under concrete on the ground floor of a house, carpet fitter accused us of over wetting, on inspection I found he had tacked the carpet rods down under the rad and straight into a pipe, when he should have used adhesive knowing that pipes were underground.
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They only became aware of it due to the carpet fitter lifting the carpet?, then how can they say it was not pre-existing?
They would not know if the carpet was in that condition prior to you cleaning it, it could have been caused by over stretching when originally fitted, the presence of water marks is not a sign of over wetting.
Thier whole opinion of the situation is just that..... their opinion. Also who made the carpet fitter the expert on water damage or carpet de-lamination again he is just giving his opinion.
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Yeah but you know with no other obvious signs of cause, ie no other leaks the claim will be cut & dried in the customers favour and denying it and arguing the case will not benefit anyone.
You could go down the route of a poor specification of carpet for the usage, which again they would lose, or even carpet fault as it should still be under warranty but again the supplier and manufacturer will deny any claim against them given the evidence.
Unless of course you could prove the fitter supplied directly an inferior product which they have been known to do having bought stock on the cheap, in other words it was already delaminating.
If the carpet is delaminating in other areas of the property that were not cleaned or very lightly cleaned then you will have a case, once again it involves a visit and inspection of all areas.
Just act professionally what ever the outcome.
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It looks a bit more than just over wetting to me....more like a water leak.
I have seen carpets leaving the retailer to be fitted showing signs of delamination especially in the colder months.
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Tony
What sort of a machine do you have? Porty or truckmount?
The reason I ask is that a few years ago, I parked my porty (Ninja) in a lounge whilst cleaning the rest of the house (before getting to the lounge).
Unbeknownst to me my machine was leaking copious amounts of water which left a severe damp patch on the lounge carpet which was not detectable whilst then cleaning the lounge carpet.
The carpet was a high quality heavy traffic 80:20 large patterned. When the carpet dried out whilst there was no shrinkage or delamination or physical damage there was a distinct watermark which I was unable to diminish to an acceptable level-and ended up claiming on my insurance for a new carpet. :'( :'( :'(
I'm guessing you didn't have your machine in this bedroom but I recount this story simply to further the discussion and give others food for thought about damp patches occurring during cleaning which you are unaware of.
Rog
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Carpet fitters are always quick to blame carpet cleaners, but that doesn't neccassariy mean they are right in their appraisal of the situation, that's point one.
Point two is that carpets like that delaminate with age and usage and could well have been in that state prior to cleaning and cleaning has brought the problem to the fore.
For you to be liable you would had to be reasonably expected to foresee the problem in advance of cleaning and while that isn't possible you are only obliged to take professional care when carrying out the work.
It would be worth asking how long the carpet took to dry as this is an indication as to how wet the carpet was left. If you don't spill anything or have a machine leak and cleaned the whole carpet exactly the same, how come just one area has delaminated?
It could well be that it is a poorly constructed carpet where the slightest moisture has been the last straw and caused the delamination, which otherwise might not have occurred.
If you know you overwet or flooded the carpet then by all means hold your hands up and do what is right, but a customer acting as an expert on the back of comments by someone who knows nothing about carpet cleaning doesn't necassaril make them right.
Btw, the second picture of the corner of the carpet doesn't look as if it is water damaged and the delamination could be a manufacturing fault.
Simon
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Thanks for your replies guys.
Mike: That was my thoughts, there was no other indications of any problems until the fitter lifted the carpet, which he would have needed to do as there has previously been a runner in on the landing so the existing door bar was not suitable for a fitted carpet, why he then decided to pull up half the room is beyond me!
Hilton: Yes the area showing does appear to be a touch over wet as the water has gone through to the underlay but thats only because he was adement that this was (as well as being the main walkway) particualrly dirty due to them having had building works done and dust/debris getting under the door, it was not however overly wet to touch. In another picture that he sent me there are items on the floor that would suggest to me that it was at least touch dry for toys, changing mat etc to be placed on it.
Rog: I use a powrflite porty which IMO is great and it was on the ground floor and the room was on the first so no significent loss of suction power, but as a talking point your right and its always a good idea to have some kind of protection under your machine when its in any carpeted room although not applicable in this particular case.
Simon: Thanks for your comments, I always wonder where our liability ends, surely if you have checked the carpet is properly fitted, is suitable for cleaning using the process you use then what more can you do!
I posted this because I thought it may be helpful to someone else in the future who has the same problem.
As I said I will pass this on the my insurers as I find this is the best way to proceed, I could go back and talk to the customer but from the email I get the feeling that he is now a "carpet expert" and will not accept any reason I give him for it being another underlying problem. I also find that they will probably accept a third party giving them a decision even if its not in their favour.
Thanks again for your input.
Tony
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I bet you it was fitted a lot longer than 6 months ago.
Do you remember if the carpet was the carpet fitted properly before you cleaned it? i.e. flush to the skirting boards etc
Did it ripple slightly after you cleaned it?
What was the reason for lifting the carpet?
I find it hard to believe that a carpet cleaner with your machine would over wet a carpet to the point of delamination. You would have to really go out of your way to leave the carpet soaking to cause that type of damage.
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My last carpet clean of the year on Tuesday had already delaminated not 6 months after fitting and before I cleaned it.
The owner said it was the second time they had replaced this carpet since moving in...the previous one had done the same and delaminated for no apparent reason.....the carpet firm replaced it for free.
She had me clean it even though it was faulty and was going to get back to the carpet firm again after Xmas.
I replaced the carpet in my computer room last year and within weeks it was off the grippers....it was a pp and the carpet supplier said I had shrunk it when cleaning it...I said it has never been cleaned and probably wouldn't shrink anyway no matter how much I overwet it...he then relented when he realised he didn't know what he was talking about and replaced it.......6 months down the line and it's off the grippers again...poor fitting.
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Well if I can put my pennies worth in.
The first picture, the carpet isn't even fitted on a proper underlay. It looks like an up-turned old carpet (you can see where they have used the d/s tape in strips to secure it previously). Looks to be worse because of this.
The fitter is right, no amount of stretching can rectify a massive amount of delamination, however if it is only a small area then glue can be injected using a syringe.
Any more pictures?
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It is on underlay, they have also laid it on top of Hessian paper which is an indication that they have previously had problems with draught marks.
By the way if delaminate a carpet through your own neglect then you own it, whether large area or not.
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Tony,
You really should go back, even if you cant do anything or persuade otherwise it at least shows youre professional. If you just pass onto insurance without seeing it it looks like you didnt know what you were doing and will make them think youre a cowboy.
You cant get a true picture of a situation from an email and pictures, its amazing how different things look or what you notice when youre there in person.
Just my opinion but I would go back and at least see whats what !
Steve
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Going off the second pic showing a corner, I would say it is a fault with the carpet. Check to see if underlay is damp or water stained in that area, if not I would put it down to carpet manufacturing fault as it looks pooe.
As stated best to go and inspect it and see what else you can find, because I can not see how you could of done that much damage with out having a major spillage, how many pre spray that much into a corner anyway.
If the same carpet is elsewhere in the house, lift it too and inspect the backing.
i would admit nothing until I had inspected, it may of course be your fault >:(
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Tony - i feel for you, what a poope email to get the day after Boxing day
I totally agree with the last 2 comments, dont just accept an email as proof and pass straight to your insurers. I know its horrible dealing with this but the worst case scenario is it goes to your insurers so dont get it to that stage without going to look first.
Some details seem out of place - firstly, if a customer is emailing and not calling why is that so? Most people with a genuine grievance will call, those who are a trying it on will often go for the email approach so they dont have to talk to you direct. A photo can't show the full story. Also, if you cleaned them on the 22nd, why and when has she had some replaced since then? she emailed you on the 27th so that means the day after Boxing day she is having new carpet fitted!? And why have they had to lift the carpet in the middle of a bedroom that isnt being replaced?
poope carpet does delaminate - especially if its had certain types of chairs on it. She said it was especially dirty in that area as building work was done - but the carpet is only 6 months old? So that means that carpet was down when the building work was done - why would you put a new carpet down and then have building work? Doesnt make sense - does she actually mean someone peed on the carpet there, or water was spilt there or something went on there she didnt want to reveal but she knew it had happened there and thats actually what delaminated the carpet not you.
I wouldnt of thought delam would happen so quickly unless solvents were used and if it was from over wetting the room would stink of damp. Is she saying the underlay was wet?
I would take a carpet fitter with me and go look. If you dont know one do a Google search or call a local carpet shop and chuck a fitter £20 to go with you. I would email back and tell the customer you need to inspect the area and you are taking an independent fitter with you and see what they say.
But i am suspecting you may have already given it to your insurers?
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The carpet fitters were in on the 23rd, the day after I cleaned, as I said earlier he would have needed to change the door bar on the bedroom carpet as the one that was there was not suitable to join 2 fitted carpets. Probably they didnt want to email me straight away as it was christmas
The building work was being done in the house but I guess they were saying that the dust/debris had been sucked under the gap of the door.
This isnt the first job I have done for them, I cleaned for them in their previous property so I dont think he is deliberately trying it on I think he has just been quickly over-educated by the carpet fitter who possibly could have been the person who supplied and fitted that carpet as well so would be reluctant to give any other reason for the delamination.
He always communicates by email and even copies in his wife! so no surprise he didnt call me, I guess he is one of those people who likes a paper trail.
No I have not passed it to my insurers yet, instead I am trying to arrange to pop round later this week and take a look for myself.
Thanks again for all your helpful comments.
Tony
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Just remembered another job I once attended.
I was called in I forget the exact reason-possibly because of an odour in a bedroom.
Getting to grips with the issue we discovered the carpet was positively damp under the bed.
As to why it was damp we decided that the only way of finding out was to lift the carpet to fully see what was going on rather than just drying the carpet out with a snail and then applying Clensan etc.
This involved having to remove all the furniture in the room (which was smallish and very cluttered). :'(
Anyway having finally lifted the carpet we discovered why the carpet was damp. At some point (we think it was the carpet fitter) had for some reason put a tack through the carpet-and where he had nailed it it had gone through a waterpipe just under the boarding!!
A fluke accident undoubtedly, but at least it explained why the carpet was getting progressively soggy and odourous.
Turned out to be a well paid job for us in the final analysis-and lots of brownie points for our professional approach.
Rog
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It is on underlay, they have also laid it on top of Hessian paper which is an indication that they have previously had problems with draught marks.
By the way if delaminate a carpet through your own neglect then you own it, whether large area or not.
No, the carpet is made like that with a thin layer of hessian glued to the carpet backing. That carpet is fitted on top of an old carpet which is not to BS therefore you should not be responsible for it's damage. There should have been a proper underlay.
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No, the underlay is laid on top of Hessian paper (or similar) the carpet also does not have a Hessian backing.
When you go back take lots of pics and try and find out , as I mentioned before, if the fitters supplied the carpet. They will have to produce their invoice anyway for insurance so ask for a copy. ;)
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Before contacting your insurers, check what the amount of your excess. Mine like many others is £500.. If the value of the carpet is less than that, there is no point in letting your insurers know about it.
Dave.
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Tony - condolences mate, this sort of thing is a real PITA >:(
My threepennysworth:
1. You cant really tell from the pics HOW damp the underlay/recycled carpet is - but surely if the wet patch is/was under the carpet you cleaned the top layer would need to have been very wet to make that much damp underneath - everyone who cleans carpets knows this - carpet underlay does not get wet without the face fibre and backing of the carpet (above) becoming really wet - most carpet fitters have no idea how little water is actually used to clean the face fibre of a carpet and how it is removed by vacuum straight away - so this 'problem' does not make any sense - do you remember soaking the top carpet that much - if you do then fess up - if not and you cleaned it normally then its NOT YOUR FAULT and you should contest this - your insurer will need to know your doubts - a good insurer will find an experienced assessor who can fight yours (and their case) they will not pay out if there is doubt about you being blamed.
2. The 2nd pic shows a corner that is de-laminating - but that piece looks as if it is completely dry - did you reply/mention this to them?
3. You say "possibly could have been the person who supplied and fitted that carpet as well so would be reluctant to give any other reason for the delamination." that could be important - are you sure there is not another source for the water/dmapness
A very strange case all around - and it does look like pretty cheaply-made carpet
Good luck!
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Unlucky bud, what I find strange though is on the first picture, has the carpet been layer over another carpet? I can see the wet area yet on the actual rolled carpet I cannot see any water marking at all nor any delamonation.
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Unlucky bud, what I find strange though is on the first picture, has the carpet been layer over another carpet? I can see the wet area yet on the actual rolled carpet I cannot see any water marking at all nor any delamonation.
Exactly correct!
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No, the underlay is laid on top of Hessian paper (or similar) the carpet also does not have a Hessian backing.
Incorrect. That is an old upside down carpet they are using as underlay. If that is not a form of cheap hessian backing then I don't know what is.
I've been fitting carpet for 37 years and I know a little about fitting techniques.
I wouldn't pay out at all as this is not fitted to British Standards.
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That's underlay, not an upside down carpet
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Ask the fella,
Is the underlay being used a piece of carpet and if so have they done the same in the rest of the property..?? ( still looks like underlay to me )
If this is so then they have bodged the fit ,the carpet would move about on the underlay almost certainly contributing to the delanination through friction , you could have a defence against the claim.
From the pictures the secondary backing is synthetic and not Hessian...
But what do I know. ;D
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Download and save the image then zoom in on it and it does look like carpet not underlay.
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it looks like a crum rubber underlay to me, difficult to tell though.
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Guys, guys lets not argue about it.
If you zoom in closely it does look like an upside down carpet, if you look closely at the edge you can see blue fibres, but I will find out as I have arranged to visit on friday afternoon so will take plenty of pictures and take up the carpet in some areas, especially under the wardrobe as it was not moved so hopefully that may help me if I can find the same problem under there!
Appreciate all your input, it has given me food for thought and a few different avenues to go down depending on what I find.
In all honesty this is what this forum is about and why it is such a great resource, carpet cleaners helping carpet cleaners.
I will report back on Friday, in the meantime, everyone have a great new year.
Tony
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We're not arguing, just giving different opinions :)
Daves point is very valid, might be worth 'settling out of court' if your excess is high, make sure they are aware that liability insurance in these cases are not like home insurance.
they don't get new for old, they will get what the insurance company believes the carpet is worth making an allowance for age and wear & tear. if they think they will get a replacement they are in for a shock
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"In all honesty this is what this forum is about and why it is such a great resource, carpet cleaners helping carpet cleaners."
Please can someone answer my questions in the other posts... (said whilst on knees, head lowered, hands up & together) :)
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You don't think the builders have had a leak and the water has travelled under the door? Why wouldn't the carpet and flooring be wet all over?
Shaun
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This is I would say crumb rubber underlay as Andrew pointed out .
I restretch and repair carpets and loads of delaminated carpets all the time and get calls from insurance companies to check claims .Most carpets that delaminate do so when the backing is dry and brittle and to pull the backing away from a carpet when it has just occured even when wet takes some doing so even if you had soaked it ,it would have taken a while to delaminate ,the glue is usually broken down when the drying process occurs and given the time scale you mention I would be very surprised if you did this in this short period unless there was a problem to begin with .I would say there was an inherant problem with this carpet in the first place ,I have layed many of this type and they are prone to have a weak backing,also the fact that the fitters restretched a carpet when it was damp/wet could ...and I emphasize could have when stretching it into the door bar pulled the face of the carpet of the backing away from the backing if the pins on the stretcher were not fully extended ...that ones a long shot but has been known .My next port of call when I access would be to look at other rooms that have the same carpet ,if there are a number of rooms look at them as well as the first one could be off a different roll ,and inspect the backing for any signs of delamination or faults and especially the edges and if you see any then bingo .Like someone else pointed out the tell tell sign of an initial problem is delamination round the edges especially if they are not wet .A carpet fitter when he is cutting the edges to poke down will see the backing come away beforehand ,it is far more common than you think and he is certainly not going to tell the customer and have to refit it later .If you dont feel comfortable taking up carpets yourself pay a fitter it will take him no time to lift carpet and restretch back on .Best of luck mate and sorry this was so long winded
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One Hell of a problem
Makes you think its a Minefield every time you clean a carpet
Problems often awise on Carpets when you go the extra mile like clearing Builders Debris
This was the starting point
Personaly I would not think Carpet is worth more than £50 plus fitting cost
Are you in NCCA because I believe one of the Directors has qualified as a Carpet Inspector according to his Web Site
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Hi Guys
Delamination may well be down to a manufacturing defect if the adhesive wasn't correctly applied.
Questions
Did it delaminate as it was being pulled up, this could be because it had adhered to the substrate or whatever else it was layed on.
Obviously if you can find delamination in an area where there is no evidence of water marking then this will be pretty conclusive.
A piece you haven't cleaned showing delamination would of course be perfect.
Is the floor concrete, the alkalinity can destroy adhesive bonds?
Cheers
Doug
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Well I went to see the customer this afternoon and it pretty much played out the way I thought it would.
Just to clear up the underlay is blue crumb rubber.
So on inspecting the carpet I found that 2.5 sides of the room appears to be glued down and I couldnt, and did not want to try and rip it up to inspect it. It is as it appears in the original pictures, the delamination is apparent around the edges for between 4 - 8 inches deep around the door and the corner and then appears to stop! I moved the wardrobe and it was not delaminated there.
We discussed other possible reasons for the delamination which he was not particularly interested and is adiment that one way or another he will be getting a new carpet from me even to the point of saying "if your insurance wont pay out dont think that will be the end of it, I will take you to the small claims court for the money"
Something, and I cannot believe I have only just remembered it, when we went to clean he said that sometimes his boy hides in his bedroom and wees behind the door, doubt he will now admit to saying that though.
The carpet is from John Lewis and is £22.00 psqm coming to £281.60 and then fitting is £100.00, not a massive amount of money but his attitude makes me loathe to replace it in case its not my fault.
What to do, what to do?!
Tony
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if you lose in small claim court then your insurance will pay I would say
get opinion in writen from some carpet inspector
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so basically it is de-laminated in the area that the fitter has lifted up and nowhere else, and everywhere else is
glued down solid, mmhh sounds like the fitter has had a bash at pulling up a heavily glued down carpet, maybe he ripped it, looking at it and retailed carpets in the past I wouldn't say it was worth 22msq, although J Lewis is a bit dearer than us paupers up north.
Ask to see the original invoice as you maybe able to get the same carpet cheaper elsewhere
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Tony this guy is a sh*ite ...we all come across them .If it was me I would fight my corner on principal and facts but then again I am a fitter and repairer as well, so would be easier for me .You have to ask yourself is it worth the hassle or not .
But I would bet on it being a problem with the carpet beforehand as all the signs are there ,did you take a fitter with you and have a look at other carpets .I know it is difficult especially when someone is slightly overpowering but you have got a right and it is not unreasonable to ask to inspect if he is asking you to pay out .
The fact that glue has been used to stick some edges as opose to gripper would indicate that either the fitters were not very good or he has cut corners and told them to just fit it regardless, so that in itself would be a grey area for a claim imo as you could argue that if it wasnt fitted properly and to a reasonable standard who is to say the carpet was not to a high standard and the fitting has contributed to the problem,it is a pity you did not know the guys who fitted it .Also some spray glues which I would hazard a guess the fitters used ,can in fact delaminate a carpet backing .Urine could and would have a detrimental effect also .But the reason I am pretty sure its a carpet defect as well as the other points, is under the wardrobe it is fine which points to constant walking and perhaps a office chair with castors making the problem worse in the walk areas as delamination happens over a period of time and if the backing was weak to begin with walking etc would have a detrimental effect on it ,there are many other reasons but too many to go into . This does stink of contradiction on his part and arrogance in expecting you to toe the line because he says so ,but you have to ask yourself is it worth the hassle .In my experience peole who are surly and bordering on rude are usually the least likely to be truthful as they feel bullying is their only answer not pure facts .If I did pay for it though I would also keep my dignity and explain that even though I am paying I certainly dont accept responsibility but am doing it for customer relations and proffesionalism .Good luck mate and keep us posted .
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Hi Guys
I think Tony Bish is spot on.
Why is it your fault just because you cleaned it.
The onus of proof is on him not you.
Cheers
Doug
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Unless they have been a good customer, I would agree with Doug and Tony and fight it.
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Where the carpet has delaminated would the backing not still be glued to the underlay if they have glued it down my instinct is they have pulled it up and its came apart now looking for a scapegoat
I would contact the NCCA even if you are not a member they should help put you in touch with a independent carpet inspector arrange for the inspection to take place and ask for the fitters details as if the inspector finds the problem has been caused by someone else you will be looking to be reimbursed for the cost of the inspection also join the NCCA
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If there is one thing I cannot abide its bullies, reasonable people I am more liable to consider in a compassionate way but when he said that if the insurance doesnt pay then he will pursue me that really annoyed me. He also suggested that I should pay for a replacement pretty much on the spot and then try to claim the money back from my insurance!! like thats gonna work!
I am considering my response to him as I said I would email him but will be taking my time to word it the way I want it to come across so he clearly understands.
You know when someone tries to be really smart even though they dont have much knowledge? yep he is one of those.
Thanks again for all your input, you've been vary helpful and I will keep you updated on developements.
Tony
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Jim I think the glueing was done at the edges and not all over ...I dont think any fitter would glue all over with underlay and gripper underneath as there would be no point ,but you are right the backing would come of if that was the case ,but the underlay would be pulled apart also .
I dont think the fitter who fitted the door bar is at fault as he has just said what he sees and cant for a min think he would pull all that carpet up to do a door bar or if he saw it was wet even, you would see delamination on the edge of the carpet when you do a door bar in fact it is probably the area worst affected for obvious reasons,how many times do we see carpet coming out of door bars and carpet is knackered, and I would suspect he mentioned this to said ass*hole and he put two and two together and came up with scam ( sorry did I say that ,well wash my mouth out ) ,I believe the guy did that and dare I say it had a hand in the damp problem also .
As I said before delamination does not happen instantaneously if carpet is in proper condition and given the time scale off incident I would say highly unlikely . There are many on this forum who are skilled in flood work,I dont and am no expert , but they have taken up carpet which has been submerged in water and the backing is still operational .
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Derek Bolton has good knowledge of how trading standards work he sometimes looks in on here.
Shaun
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Well well well,
So it is on crumb, pretty much what I suspected I hope you did not accept any liability.
By the way bonding carpet to to this type of underlay is not unusual and is the recommended method when using Duralay System 10, so pulling the carpet away from around edges could result in it pulling the secondary backing away, I am not sure why they would have done this though..
In case you are wondering I used to do carpet inspections for major stores including John Lewis which I am sure you know have their own range and use their own appointed fitters.this does not look anything like the quality they would sell..are you sure the invoice is genuine ? Does it say including fitting.?
If I was still in the game I would to take this one on..
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Tony,
I too hate people that think they can bully you into paying for something that probably isn't your fault , by threatening to take you to the Small Claims Court. Taking you to court is one thing, winning is quite another as they will have to convince the court that this problem was your fault. Your job is to be in a position to cast as much doubt upon that as possible and that shouldn't be difficult as this case hinges on one simple point - that you couldn't reasonably have foreseen this issue in advance of cleaning the carpet, which the client engaged you to do and given that you couldn't have known this issue would arise, then it could be argued that it is actually the clients fault and that he should have checked with the manufacturer to get guidelines on how to clean this carpet and passed them on to you.
The other thing is that it is not unreasonable for a carpet to hang together through the process of cleaning it and the fact that it has delaminated in places is surely down to a manufacturing fault.
You say you are going to write to him and put your position.....don't!
Write to him and acknowledge his complaint and say that following your recent visit on XX day at XX time you intend to obtain specialist advice from a qualified carpet inspector.
Next, take Hilton up on his offer or get someone he knows about these things to go and take a look.
Simon
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A lot of advice here to take in...I would like to make several points if I may..
1 in an earlier post I intimated that the wet area looked to be more than over wetting i.e. a leak of some sort
2. Delamination... I have seen new carpets being loaded onto a fitters van delaminating as the roll is being maneuvered onto the vehicle.
3. Latex glue used to secure the secondary backing to the primary backing does not, to my knowledge, have to meet any British Standard therefore its manufacture can be inconsistant. To bulk the glue a China clay is used and its when this dries out (crumbles to dust) any likely delamination present can escalate.
4. Trading Standards...why not have a word with them...after all we all pay taxes and have a right to call on their services.... they can be very helpful. Allied Carpets used to follow this route in awkward situations to good effect
5. Something else crossed my mind... if a fitter has been playing around... couldn't the 'last person to touch it syndrome be applicable'?
I hope this is useful....Good luck
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tony just on another side linked to your post I cleaned a carpet for a client before xmas and she had a carpet from john lewis and when it did arrive to be fitted the carpet was delaminated...
Just shows this can happen at any time of supplier.
good luck with this by the way.
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Tony what sort of Guarantee do you give
On the other hand a cleaner round my way who offered a Money nack Guarantee told the client to go and F..ck her carpet
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Did you get this sorted Tony .
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Having lifted many carpets due to water and fire damage I have seen this many times. Sometimes even when the carpet has been saturated delamination hasn't occurred. However they do delaminate when wet for a long period. I have normally found this in the traffic lanes especially the footfall area just in the doorways. Most of these were cold water leaks so I imagine hot water would increase the risk. I have also seen this many times when lifting carpets which hadn't been wetted. Obviously this was due to friction due to wear.
In this instance I would be reluctant to accept responsibility as it appears that the damage is along the edge of the carpet where it has been stretched onto the door bar and gripper. If over wetting had been the cause why was the damage not more widespread.
If you are convinced you did not over wet then I would just put it in writing that the carpets were cleaned using industry standard methods which would not cause the damage highlighted. I would also mention that he told you his son had urinated. I bet they wouldn't have just left that but would probably have used a lot of water to wash it out.
Let him then take it further which would put the onus on him to prove you caused the damage. The carpet fitters word would not be enough to do this unless he was qualified in carpet inspections which I doubt.
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Well to cut a long story short(and I am leaving out a fair bit of detail deliberately at this point) I continued to deny responsibility and suggested other reasons for the delamination, pointing out that it had only happened where the fitter had lifted the carpet but to no avail, he is/was still insistant that I was the only possible cause for the damage and if I didnt pay up he would claim (through the court) not only for that carpet but for another much older carpet that I had cleaned and he now said was damaged! Not really into blackmail and you just cannot reason with some people so he has been told that, as John has just pointed out, the onus is on him to prove my responsibility for the damage.
That was about a week ago and I await any further response from him and expect something to drop through the letter box any day and we will see what happens from there!
Thanks again for all your comments and help and if anything further happens I will let you know how it turns out.
Tony
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Well good luck mate, lets hope he crawls back under the stone he came out from .........and keep us posted
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If the fitter has lifted the carpet then I reckon the 'last person to touch it syndrome' could apply... see previous post