Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Window Lickers on December 10, 2014, 07:19:24 pm
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I upgraded this week one of our WFP pumps from an off the shelf 5.3 LPM to a 10 LPM provided by Vyair. Initially I had problems with it as the pressure switch seems to be faulty. So this morning I bypassed the pressure switch and worked with it on full-bore and BeJezus! it makes one hell of a difference to work.
Id say that Ive found a number of noticeable incidences that have affected my working life in a positive way. Initially changing from trad to WFP, then from trolley to van-mount then from van-mount to two man and on up to the current Grippa system we have. I would put upgrading to a 10LPM pump in the same bracket as those other changes.
It makes a cracking difference, windows really do take seconds to clean, literally. I would recommend it to anyone who has the capacity for the increased water required. Saying that, dont go thinking you use 600 litres an hour. The figures quoted by the manufacturers are at full pump potential, so with no resistance created by 100 metres of 6 or 8 mm hose and with no nozzles. In reality it was pushing out a fraction under 4.5 LPM at the brush-head, knocking about 60% off the quoted figures.
We also checked how much a 5.3 LPM pump was producing at the brush-head and this was 2 LPM.
So an improvement of twice the output at the brush-head, which is inline with the figures the manufacturers claim without resistance.
Vyair do a 10 LPM pump for just under £70.00, the same pretty much as a regular 5.3 LPM.
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about time too ;D
Good to know. I wonder how they upgrade the pump - bigger diaphragms or does it run faster?
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Its a bigger pump for starters.
Mine was running flat out ;) its the only way, why bother on half a speed?
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Do you use a controller then matt, or just use the pumps pressure switch with it flowing at full whack?
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are the mounting holes spaced differently to other pumps?
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Thats good to know Matt, thanks for that.
How many litres does your tank hold? I've got a 650ltr and quite often now 2 guys nearly run out, we don't have the flow massively high.
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are the mounting holes spaced differently to other pumps?
Yes just the same. However the inlet and outlet tails protrude about 3/4" more than the basic pumps.
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Thats good to know Matt, thanks for that.
How many litres does your tank hold? I've got a 650ltr and quite often now 2 guys nearly run out, we don't have the flow massively high.
Ive got a 650 Grippa. We get through that on a day between the two of us usually, however we always run the pumps on max. Im thinking we might have to take a few barrels along with us, Ive got 8 or so out the back for a trolley I bought last year so can take them as well in addition to the tank of water.
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Hey Matt,
Are you rinsing on or off the glass?
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on.
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I'm starting to work with a faster flow and flying . So which controller if at all are you using with this pump . Cheers barry
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Bum licker if you are using a high flow rate if you have regular
monthly maintenance cleans unless some dirty bugger has
crapped on the glass why bother rinsing at all surely the flow
itself from scrubbing should be enough.
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Well done Matt, now if the theory is correct ( and I believe it is ) you should be using the same, maybe less water because you only need to be on the glass/window half the time to do the same area. Initially the trick will be to be brave enough to rinse for 5 to 10 seconds instead of 15 to 20
The only problem I forsee is first cleans and SFG cleaning where you may need to scrub an area longer than normal reg windows, this would eat into your water supply
Darran
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I have always used Vyair 5 Ltr pumps and have just upgraded to a 650ltr tank, maybe now is the time to go for a new 10 Ltr pm pump.
I would think that I am going to need some serious battery power though, as I don't use a controller and I would think that this setup would drain batteries PDQ.
The benefits sound worth it.
I could always put out some fires along the way if need be with all that water flowing, ha ha
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U have been using the 7 liter min via air for 3 years and the 10 liter a minute for one year and also find its does clean better unfortunately the pressure switch does give in so my first one lasted 4 months. So get some spare ones Matt as they go with out warning. I have changed my pumps for easy access so I can drop in a new switch on the trot. My first 7 lit pump is still going strong after 3 years and two pressure switches. Were I have found more water makes a big difference is nearly flat roof connies the dirt just floats off. I have a few in monthly cleans and will be getting a Garden over spray to use on these connies. http://www.gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/acatalog/The-New-OVERSPRAY.html
I have said so often heighter flow is the way to go.I believe we have been mislead by the water saving clan.
Want to increase work load put more water on the glass it works.
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I have had failed pressure switches myself
Apparently the new Vyair pumps have a built in pressure switch which is more robust, according to the man on the phone at Vyair
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I upgraded this week one of our WFP pumps from an off the shelf 5.3 LPM to a 10 LPM provided by Vyair. Initially I had problems with it as the pressure switch seems to be faulty. So this morning I bypassed the pressure switch and worked with it on full-bore and BeJezus! it makes one hell of a difference to work.
Id say that Ive found a number of noticeable incidences that have affected my working life in a positive way. Initially changing from trad to WFP, then from trolley to van-mount then from van-mount to two man and on up to the current Grippa system we have. I would put upgrading to a 10LPM pump in the same bracket as those other changes.
It makes a cracking difference, windows really do take seconds to clean, literally. I would recommend it to anyone who has the capacity for the increased water required. Saying that, dont go thinking you use 600 litres an hour. The figures quoted by the manufacturers are at full pump potential, so with no resistance created by 100 metres of 6 or 8 mm hose and with no nozzles. In reality it was pushing out a fraction under 4.5 LPM at the brush-head, knocking about 60% off the quoted figures.
We also checked how much a 5.3 LPM pump was producing at the brush-head and this was 2 LPM.
So an improvement of twice the output at the brush-head, which is inline with the figures the manufacturers claim without resistance.
Vyair do a 10 LPM pump for just under £70.00, the same pretty much as a regular 5.3 LPM.
like what you say about noticeable differences ... Ive just discovered the joys of working with a high flow (- not measured the amount of water from brush yet -) has made a huge difference to me in last 2 weeks and will make 2015 best year ever .. think because I started wfp with a trolley system I tended to be conservative with my flow settings but now working faster and using LESS water ... only taken 4 years to dawn on me ::)roll ::)roll
Was only thinking today "are there more powerful pumps out there" ... your post has answered my question and as doing quite a few upgrades during the Christmas break this is hopefully going to be on the list of jobs to be done.
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http://www.vyair.com/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=31
shame their website makes my head hurt ::)roll
did you know they do a 12 litre version as well 8)
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U have been using the 7 liter min via air for 3 years and the 10 liter a minute for one year and also find its does clean better unfortunately the pressure switch does give in so my first one lasted 4 months. So get some spare ones Matt as they go with out warning. I have changed my pumps for easy access so I can drop in a new switch on the trot. My first 7 lit pump is still going strong after 3 years and two pressure switches. Were I have found more water makes a big difference is nearly flat roof connies the dirt just floats off. I have a few in monthly cleans and will be getting a Garden over spray to use on these connies. http://www.gardinerpolesystems.co.uk/acatalog/The-New-OVERSPRAY.html
I have said so often heighter flow is the way to go.I believe we have been mislead by the water saving clan.
Want to increase work load put more water on the glass it works.
Tucker poles use to have the same overflow system as gardiners. I used it when I first started and was getting complaints that I was pulling the dirt down from above.....I was....so I stopped using it and only rinse from the jets or pencils from within the brush and mostly rinse brush on as it's just as quick or even quicker, especially on hydrophobic glass.
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Well done Matt, now if the theory is correct ( and I believe it is ) you should be using the same, maybe less water because you only need to be on the glass/window half the time to do the same area. Initially the trick will be to be brave enough to rinse for 5 to 10 seconds instead of 15 to 20
The only problem I forsee is first cleans and SFG cleaning where you may need to scrub an area longer than normal reg windows, this would eat into your water supply
Darran
Exactly! ;)
Although I would say each pane was taking approx 3 seconds :)
There's no way we'd use this pump on full bore for FSG, you'd be out of water before breakfast ;)
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You should try using Ungers 40cm solar panel brush on the large panes of glass, it's footprint is huge and it glides really easily on a swivel. Covers a window in a fraction of the time but you need 4 jets minimum and a high flow of water to ensure the glass is cleaned properly as there are lots of bristles splayed on this brush. ;D
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http://www.vyair.com/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=31
shame their website makes my head hurt ::)roll
did you know they do a 12 litre version as well 8)
I did. I might be mental but I ain't that mental ;)
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Bum licker if you are using a high flow rate if you have regular
monthly maintenance cleans unless some dirty bugger has
crapped on the glass why bother rinsing at all surely the flow
itself from scrubbing should be enough.
i dont like to work with that ethic to be honest Mr Glitter.
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Were I have found more water makes a big difference is nearly flat roof connies the dirt just floats off.
We did a roof we do on a regular basis with it yesterday, was a pure joy, an eye opener, it was like a river. Super-dooper ;)
2 conservatory rooves tomorrow, should be interesting.
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i have a 400 tank, if i had my pump on full i would be out of water by lunch, dont understend how you can work with pump on full
or am i missing something ???
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The 10 LPM pump will also be drawing more current, especially at that rate, so your daily battery usage will increase.
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I have had failed pressure switches myself
Apparently the new Vyair pumps have a built in pressure switch which is more robust, according to the man on the phone at Vyair
the 10 lit a min pump I have is the new design sorry to say they are no different to the old one s as far as quality switches go. The only new thing switch is covered and so it will not be knocked of as the old ones were.
The best way round that will be to fake a bad switch and get them to send one and keep it as a spare.
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I have always used Vyair 5 Ltr pumps and have just upgraded to a 650ltr tank, maybe now is the time to go for a new 10 Ltr pm pump.
I would think that I am going to need some serious battery power though, as I don't use a controller and I would think that this setup would drain batteries PDQ.
The benefits sound worth it.
I could always put out some fires along the way if need be with all that water flowing, ha ha
The 10 lit pump draws 8 amp so quite a bit more power, but running for less time I still use a 100 amp hour battery.
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Using this 10 lit pump did not make a big difference to fan jet as they offer to much resistance to the flow and the Psi is still 100 psi, but with pencil jets the flow is much higher as full flow. I run my 10 liter on a controller so only use it at 3/4 but can turn it up when needed.
I know the 12 liter pump is a 120 psi this might force the pump to cycle or force the fitting on your hose and pole.
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What I don't understand is what your getting on the glass every four to six weeks that needs a power
washer to remove it.
Is this rural properties that are getting bombarded with snail trails insect poo and bird muck that we are talking
about or something else ?
I actually cleaned a mates 5 bed detached in under 5mins with a one and three quarter litres per minute flow, done it just to see how quick it was possible for me to go if I really wanted to. ( Didn't include unpacking and packing equipment )
Asked his wife and him to check them and did they find them acceptable which they both did, wont lie there was a small
amount of spotting but it wasn't caused by lack of flow.
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I have had failed pressure switches myself
Apparently the new Vyair pumps have a built in pressure switch which is more robust, according to the man on the phone at Vyair
the 10 lit a min pump I have is the new design sorry to say they are no different to the old one s as far as quality switches go. The only new thing switch is covered and so it will not be knocked of as the old ones were.
The best way round that will be to fake a bad switch and get them to send one and keep it as a spare.
Thanks for that slap bash
I have spare pressure switches from the older Vyair pumps, are these interchangeable with the new covered switches?
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What I don't understand is what your getting on the glass every four to six weeks that needs a power
washer to remove it.
Is this rural properties that are getting bombarded with snail trails insect poo and bird muck that we are talking
about or something else ?
I actually cleaned a mates 5 bed detached in under 5mins with a one and three quarter litres per minute flow, done it just to see how quick it was possible for me to go if I really wanted to. ( Didn't include unpacking and packing equipment )
Asked his wife and him to check them and did they find them acceptable which they both did,wont lie there was a small
amount of spotting but it wasn't caused by lack of flow.
Are you sure ?
Darran
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What I don't understand is what your getting on the glass every four to six weeks that needs a power
washer to remove it.
Is this rural properties that are getting bombarded with snail trails insect poo and bird muck that we are talking
about or something else ?
I actually cleaned a mates 5 bed detached in under 5mins with a one and three quarter litres per minute flow, done it just to see how quick it was possible for me to go if I really wanted to. ( Didn't include unpacking and packing equipment )
Asked his wife and him to check them and did they find them acceptable which they both did,wont lie there was a small
amount of spotting but it wasn't caused by lack of flow.
Are you sure ?
Darran
No it was caused by degraded rubber seals on some of the frames, normally I would take more care with these.
But don't get me wrong even then it was only a little and would take a very OCD member of the public to find it.
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i have a 400 tank, if i had my pump on full i would be out of water by lunch, dont understend how you can work with pump on full
or am i missing something ???
Perhaps you should try it one day and see what happens.
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What I don't understand is what your getting on the glass every four to six weeks that needs a power
washer to remove it.
Nothing, there's no power washer being used. Same pressure as the 5.3 LPM pumps.
Is this rural properties that are getting bombarded with snail trails insect poo and bird muck that we are talking
about or something else ?
No.
This is about speed not quality of work. It means you can clean the glass and walk on immediately the glass has been scrubbed - just about.
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NO, sorry mate the new switches are smaller than the older model.
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Try this www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uuPft4tjLk
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NO, sorry mate the new switches are smaller than the older model.
Cheers
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i have a 400 tank, if i had my pump on full i would be out of water by lunch, dont understend how you can work with pump on full
or am i missing something ???
Perhaps you should try it one day and see what happens.
but id be out of water by lunch lol
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If you say so.
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Higher flow does make you quicker. I've had to up my flow to make my boiler kick in and rinsing is far faster.
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i have a 400 tank, if i had my pump on full i would be out of water by lunch, dont understend how you can work with pump on full
or am i missing something ???
You must be, my shurflo is always on full I've got a 400L tank and I've never used more than 350L for a full day.
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Try this www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uuPft4tjLk
Good video, and he's spot on for pencil jet operatives, change to fan jets and you get none of those problems, as the horizontal spray does not push dirty water upwards, when the brush touches the edge of the window so does the water inside the brush head, higher flow eliminates that spotting half way down the window
So which one caused your spotting again ?
Darran
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Splash and super dash
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Try this www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uuPft4tjLk
Good video, and he's spot on for pencil jet operatives, change to fan jets and you get none of those problems, as the horizontal spray does not push dirty water upwards, when the brush touches the edge of the window so does the water inside the brush head, higher flow eliminates that spotting half way down the window
So which one caused your spotting again ?
Darran
Spot on!
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Try this www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uuPft4tjLk
Good video, and he's spot on for pencil jet operatives, change to fan jets and you get none of those problems, as the horizontal spray does not push dirty water upwards, when the brush touches the edge of the window so does the water inside the brush head, higher flow eliminates that spotting half way down the window
So which one caused your spotting again ?
Darran
Please explain, are you saying that when rinsing with a high flow you just need to run it along the top of the window and
the high flow will do the rest ?
Are you saying that you only need to rinse half way down the window and the high flow will do the rest ?
Like most who come on here saying that a high flow makes you quicker you cant seem to explain why it makes you
quicker or why others who work with lower flows can be just as quick.
I'm not saying that there wont be certain jobs where a higher flow wont benefit you but for most everyday four to six weekly
cleans the small amount of dirt that accumulates on the windows is easily removed.
I personally think its nothing more than a comfort blanket to some.
Here's a suggestion for full flow users, clean your own property today and check the results, in four weeks time reduce your
flow by half but don't change anything else in the way you clean in other words don't take any longer and then check the results.
I guarantee that you wont find any difference in the quality of the clean.
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I think Matts saying by rinsing with the brush on with a good flow of water he is saving the extra time of lifting the brush head and zig zagging down the glass. With a really good flow the water is cascading down the glass whilst you've already started the next window.
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I'm happy Sean to explain why higher flow is better, quicker and gives great results time and time again, and yes I've done tests and have experience of using low flows to know you are more likely to have spotting!
Firstly with fan jet you can keep ramping up the flow, why? Because water is forced out in an arc along the horizontal plain, unlike a pencil jet which mushroom on impact ( this is where it pushes dirt upwards ) with fan jets you get a curtain of water along the brush head, so you are cleaning and rincing a whole area with one movement and the brush requires less movement because the water inside is edge to edge, with pencils you to move the brush more ( as per your video ) to cover the glass, and more slowly, the slower the flow the slower the rince because to need to allow for the trickle of water and the tiny surface area it's covers time to actually make contact with the glass, likewise you need to zigzag down over the glass, with high flow you get a water curtain effect so you can for most windows rinse at the top then move on.
With fan jets you can rinse with brush on or off ( about 1") a tap, aquadaptor aquatap are all ideal add ons for quick on/off for water, rincing with pencils usually means holding the brush head 3 to 6 inches away from the glass, (less control)
Very early on I studied the 2 techniques - Jeff bramble the master of DIY and water saving and Peter fogwill who's autobrush lead the way with high flow WFP.
It became clear that those with low flow were doing so because they mainly needed to make the water last as they worked from backpacks and trolleys, they were prepared to work as close as they could to bare minimum boreline flow to save changing or refilling more often, with van mounts you can up the flow, water saving is not so high a priority as it once was.
On a personal level, I use high flow, but not full bore, there is a sweet spot (for me) where you can only cover so much glass without wasting water but the flow being such rinsing is almost instant.
Here are some examples for you - in pressure washing you can use 15 deg spray tips these give deeper clean but are slower because they cover a small area and stripe easily, 25 deg tip covers a larger area, work is done more quickly but is less intensive, now your using pencils and trying to ridicule the use of high flow when in truth you are using a jet more suitable for heavily soiled windows rather than maintenance work ;)
If you have a patio with leaves on, try hosing it down with a single jet at low flow then with a higher flow on a fan setting as see which covers and cleans the fastest.
hope this helps
Darran
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Excellent reply Smudger, but one more question when you say high flow how many litres per minute
are you talking about ?
Definitely going to give fan jets a try.
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With a 10 LPM pump, 8mm hose and two fan jets its been coming out of the brush head at 4.5 litres per minute.
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i have a 400 tank, if i had my pump on full i would be out of water by lunch, dont understend how you can work with pump on full
or am i missing something ???
Perhaps you should try it one day and see what happens.
but id be out of water by lunch lol
Today I did 4 and a bit hours on the glass ... went out with 400 litres and came home with 150 litres.
No aquadapta.
Pump on 66 which from reel gives me dead on 2 litres per minute. (80 gives me 2.5 litres a min)
Did total of 16 jobs
8 x 3 bed semis no connies
1 x 3 bed semi with conny
3 x 3 bed detached
1 x 4 bed detached (3 monthly clean ::)roll ::)roll) LOTS of rinsing
1 x front only
1 x 4 bed with large conny
1 x 4 bed no conny
Try it you have nothing to loose and lots to gain ;)
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So as a question how much money are u looking to generate on average on about 550 litres
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So as a question how much money are u looking to generate on average on about 550 litres
who me or forum in general ??
if its me then sorry never talk figures on here but I know what on average 100 litres will earn me.
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So as a question how much money are u looking to generate on average on about 550 litres
£300 - £350
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i have a 400 tank, if i had my pump on full i would be out of water by lunch, dont understend how you can work with pump on full
or am i missing something ???
Perhaps you should try it one day and see what happens.
but id be out of water by lunch lol
Today I did 4 and a bit hours on the glass ... went out with 400 litres and came home with 150 litres.
No aquadapta.
Pump on 66 which from reel gives me dead on 2 litres per minute. (80 gives me 2.5 litres a min)
Did total of 16 jobs
8 x 3 bed semis no connies
1 x 3 bed semi with conny
3 x 3 bed detached
1 x 4 bed detached (3 monthly clean ::)roll ::)roll) LOTS of rinsing
1 x front only
1 x 4 bed with large conny
1 x 4 bed no conny
Try it you have nothing to loose and lots to gain ;)
About the same as me mate. Usually about 60 to 68. Every time I turn it on its different. My 250ltr tank will earn me about £200. Lasts me most of day normally 11am to 3 lmao
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Never done an exact measurement, setting have been more trial and testing where the flow is great enough but not excessive.
Digital controllers run at 75
Analogue controllers run at 7
Popping down tomorrow as one of the lads is servicing 2 of the vans so I'll do some tests
Darran
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Never done an exact measurement, setting have been more trial and testing where the flow is great enough but not excessive.
Digital controllers run at 75
Analogue controllers run at 7
Popping down tomorrow as one of the lads is servicing 2 of the vans so I'll do some tests
Darran
I always get spotting get with fan jets Darran. What am I doing wrong. I use sill brush. Red fan jets. Quite a decent flow. Rinsing on the glass?
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Well, I have little faith in Alex's fan jets, for me they don't fan enough, too much of a compromise trying to please pencil jet users and fan jet users.
Never used a sill brush, so can't comment I use super light dual trim, rinse on the glass or lift off a few millimetres no more than 25mm (1 inch)
Blue lumark fans are good, but I use a black version that I sourced for around a £2 each and these are the bees knees, I'll get you a piccy tomorrow
(Sorry not a quid but 2)
Darran
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Smudger where do you buy them from, cheers.
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http://www.spraytips.co.uk/product/?pid=108788
You want the 12's. Not 02's
Darran
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just adding to smudgers post, i too feel the fan jets on high flow (60) for me are better for regular maintenance cleans, i use gardiners low pressure fan jets (red ones)
But i do find pencil are far better for first cleans, leave less spotting or no spotting compared to fan jets, i have both sets on the same brush and just change for jobs
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Never used a sill brush, so can't comment I use super light dual trim, rinse on the glass or lift off a few millimetres no more than 25mm (1 inch)
Same here, SL dual trim - rinse on, full bore.
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i have a 400 tank, if i had my pump on full i would be out of water by lunch, dont understend how you can work with pump on full
or am i missing something ???
Perhaps you should try it one day and see what happens.
but id be out of water by lunch lol
Today I did 4 and a bit hours on the glass ... went out with 400 litres and came home with 150 litres.
No aquadapta.
Pump on 66 which from reel gives me dead on 2 litres per minute. (80 gives me 2.5 litres a min)
Did total of 16 jobs
8 x 3 bed semis no connies
1 x 3 bed semi with conny
3 x 3 bed detached
1 x 4 bed detached (3 monthly clean ::)roll ::)roll) LOTS of rinsing
1 x front only
1 x 4 bed with large conny
1 x 4 bed no conny
Try it you have nothing to loose and lots to gain ;)
personally I wouldn't consider 2lpm particulary a high flow but I can
clean just as quickly with considerably less flow on four weekly maintenance
cleans and I don't rinse unless absolutely necessary.
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With a 10 LPM pump, 8mm hose and two fan jets its been coming out of the brush head at 4.5 litres per minute.
Must admit ive always been curious about using fan jets but never got round
to trying them.
I imagine even using 4.5lpm its not bouncing off the glass like it would
with a pencil jet which I have found when I have plugged into a customers
outside tap :)
Even being a backpack user like myself where the pumps only max at
3.1lpm using 5mm hose its given me something new to think about trying.
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Could somebody please post a video of this technique in action please ???
Thanks, Phil....
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I upgraded this week one of our WFP pumps from an off the shelf 5.3 LPM to a 10 LPM provided by Vyair. Initially I had problems with it as the pressure switch seems to be faulty. So this morning I bypassed the pressure switch and worked with it on full-bore and BeJezus! it makes one hell of a difference to work.
Id say that Ive found a number of noticeable incidences that have affected my working life in a positive way. Initially changing from trad to WFP, then from trolley to van-mount then from van-mount to two man and on up to the current Grippa system we have. I would put upgrading to a 10LPM pump in the same bracket as those other changes.
It makes a cracking difference, windows really do take seconds to clean, literally. I would recommend it to anyone who has the capacity for the increased water required. Saying that, dont go thinking you use 600 litres an hour. The figures quoted by the manufacturers are at full pump potential, so with no resistance created by 100 metres of 6 or 8 mm hose and with no nozzles. In reality it was pushing out a fraction under 4.5 LPM at the brush-head, knocking about 60% off the quoted figures.
We also checked how much a 5.3 LPM pump was producing at the brush-head and this was 2 LPM.
So an improvement of twice the output at the brush-head, which is inline with the figures the manufacturers claim without resistance.
Vyair do a 10 LPM pump for just under £70.00, the same pretty much as a regular 5.3 LPM.
so happy i just found this post came on here to ask if i buy a pump will a stronger flow help!
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i don't know about all these figures but we bought some work off a trolly dolly guy said we would only use 200 lts for this round
1100 we used to do it that day only had 100lts left in the tank they were minging !!! all the customers loved the clean windows why do people skimp on water and rinsing
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http://www.vyair.com/scripts/prodList.asp?idCategory=31
shame their website makes my head hurt ::)roll
did you know they do a 12 litre version as well 8)
Much cheaper off their site than via Ebay.