Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: WCS Limited on December 08, 2014, 11:49:50 pm
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Now i had a safefill with a fogwash many moons ago and now in the new van im just running cold, ive been debating whether to buy a used diesel system when one comes up for sale or to just build my own from scratch (im more than up to the challenge of building an almost identical pure freedom one for the fraction of the new cost)
anyways ive also been tempted by going the LPG route again until i saw this on Facebook this morning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tInsvzrE5SA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tInsvzrE5SA)
i would not like this to happen anywhere near me!!!
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When driving an HGV 10 years ago round about now, I witnessed another HGV tanker flatten a broken down black hack (taxi) on the M77. The driver was still in it at the time and when I ran back there he had just stepped out from what was left. His face was badly cut up but he was lucky to be alive just like the chap in the video a very near death moment. :o
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so your full of fear cos of a video from 2 years ago of 2 guys in a middle eastern country nearly blowing themselves up with a dodgy tank/cylinder.stick with cold mate.............oh and be careful out there.keep your eye out for vans with lpg.if you see one RUN FOR THE HILLS.by the way cold water cleans far better than hot did you know cold actually keeps your hands warmer on cold days? ;D ;D ;D
I use a 13kg gas bottle with an L5.costs me around £50 a month to use hot every day throughout winter(2 bottles a month).i know its cheaper in the long run to fit a gas safe cylinder but i only use hot in winter.
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I'm thinking of building a diesel system too , i reckon you do it properly for less than a grand.
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Haha no I do agree it's cheaper, having to cut hole in the roof to run a thermostatic controller at night also puts me off.
Remember Dazmond I had a gas one fitted by myself years ago when they first started coming out. I think it's more the point of the older I get the more I think about my own mortality lol rather than to save some money...
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I'm thinking of building a diesel system too , i reckon you do it properly for less than a grand.
Is it spruce that's tried before and found out some problems??
However I've spoken to both PF and Spring controllers about essentially jail breaking the temperature control unit to reduce the 60dg plus setting on heater units but the costs would be far out weighed to bother doing. Think the easiest way would be to pretty much copy theirs but use a recon heater... I think £1k would be pushing it though if you wanted a guaranteed recon heater :)
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£399 on ebay for a 5kw refurbished with the full kit (fuel pump /wiring etc) all the ancillaries are brand new .
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Eberspacher-Hydronic-D5WSC-12v-DIESEL-WATER-HEATER-FULL-KIT-WARRANTY-/251743726512?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item3a9d186bb0
6 months warranty
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Water-heater-Hydronic-D5WSC-D5W-SC-12V-diesel-full-kit-1-year-warranty-/261623409698?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item3ce9f86c22
1 years warranty ....... ideally i would prefer a 9kw version but i think this work for a one man system .
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That's what I mean to get a 9kw or even 7kw your looking way closer to around £1200 at best with all the ancillaries plus a cabinet and the PF controller to work the thermostat.
Don't forget you have to install an additional fuel tank as apparently new legislation prevents you from tapping into your existing tank ???
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they do get the 9kw ones in occasionally with the full kit and they are nowhere near 1200 .
i don't need a cabinet as my bespoke grippa system has room to bolt it on since i removed the filters from the van .
I'm pretty sure grippa still tap into the tank .....personally i think its easier just to fit a second tank .
where did you hear that legislation?
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That's from PF it does make sense with idea of the fuel leaking from a non manufacturer installed part
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I don't think it makes any sense , any competent mechanic can fit a full line leak free its not rocket science .
You could have exactly the same problem fitting a separate tank , you still need a fuel line.
I can see it maybe voiding your warranty if its a new vehicle though .
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That's what I mean to get a 9kw or even 7kw your looking way closer to around £1200 at best with all the ancillaries plus a cabinet and the PF controller to work the thermostat.
Don't forget you have to install an additional fuel tank as apparently new legislation prevents you from tapping into your existing tank ???
I haven't been able to find anything about this new legislation tbh. Our van insurers didn't know anything about it either. The Webasto stand pipe is a pretty good piece of kit, and, if fitted to their instructions will be pretty fail safe.
There was an issue with Ducato based motorhomes which had diesel heaters fitted. Webasto suggest that the fuel pump is removed from the tank and there is a section on the flange of the unit that will nicely accept the stand pipe. It obviously means drilling the fuel pump flange. There was a batch of fuel pumps that failed and were replaced under warranty. However any that were tampered with (ie a hole drilled in it) had their warranty rejected. Those fuel pumps are jolly expensive.
The other issue fitting a stand pipe to some tanks is that some of the drilling swarf will get into the tank, despite the drill bit being coated with grease to catch it. The fitter would have to assume responsibility for this if this swarf was proven to cause other fuel related issues.
My feeling (unless they can direct us to the legislation) is that THEY (PF) don't want the responsibilty and have used it as an excuse not to do the job that way.
I would have thought they would ban fitting additional tanks rather than tapping into your existing fuel tank. If you have a second tank fitted into the van permanently, then you risk spilling fuel into the van with either putting the nozzle in or taking it out. What happens if you overfill your tank?
This is the latest info that I could find regarding the carrying and storage of extra fuel.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/17548007
Many found a solution was a Marine tank. Easy to fill on the forecourt, easy to carry and transport, and easy to connect up to the boat. Its what I would use. There is a steel frame work that will secure a 20 litre jerry can (which is also used in the marine industry). It can be taken out at fuel staions and filled on the forecourt before returned full into its frame. All that would need is a longer hose from the tank to the pump.
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Eberspacher-Hydronic-D5WSC-12v-DIESEL-WATER-HEATER-FULL-KIT-WARRANTY-/251743726512?pt=UK_Campervan_Caravan_Accessories&hash=item3a9d186bb0
6 months warranty
It won't produce enough heat. A 5kw diesel heater working at full 'bore' will raise the water from 9 degrees to 35 degrees at 1.5 LPM. If you increase the flow to 2LPM it won't get you much above 25 degrees from 9 degrees.
You can get a hotter output by slowing the water to 1.0 LPM, but it's too slow to rinse properly IMHO.
The trouble with diesel heaters is that they are very inefficient, so most of the heat generated goes to waste through the exhaust.
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I'm thinking of building a diesel system too , i reckon you do it properly for less than a grand.
Here's a photo my test bench system.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1418136889_DSCF0551b.jpg)
It has 3 heat exchangers. It was built to see how well it would cope as a 2 operator system. The third heat exchanger (first in line from the heater) was to tap off excess heat from the circuit via a digital thermostatic pump controller and return it back to the tank during periods when we weren't cleaning windows.
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I've wondered for a while now if it was a legal requirement to display the sticker if you're carrying gas.
It isn't.
It's probably a good idea, but not a legal requirement.
http://www.bcga.co.uk/pages/download_document.cfm?document_name=L1.pdf
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It is funny it's a little like Chinese whispers it all started as a fAg packet idea to stop people buying gas lol
An exploding bottle does worry me...
Spruce... Looks like you've been plugging away at this for a while then, rather than setting your heater as a demand unit did you look into it heating the water as a hot water tank (like at home) and using a controller with temperature probes to tell the unit when to fire between certain peramitters?
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I'm thinking of building a diesel system too , i reckon you do it properly for less than a grand.
Here's a photo my test bench system.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1418136889_DSCF0551b.jpg)
It has 3 heat exchangers. It was built to see how well it would cope as a 2 operator system. The third heat exchanger (first in line from the heater) was to tap off excess heat from the circuit via a digital thermostatic pump controller and return it back to the tank during periods when we weren't cleaning windows.
I was looking at the 5kw for a one man system rather than 2 which is what i believe pure freedom used in there one man system .
Also why the extra heat exchanger , surely its simpler to have a thermal valve in between the exchanger and the hosereel outlet to cycle water back to tank from the same heat exchanger?
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Personally I'd go for an immersion heater if I was building another hot system. Diesel may be less explosive than gas, but you have worse issues with fumes, higher purchase costs, higher running costs and higher maintenance costs,...
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thats only really an option if you have a driveway to park on , not everybody does.
I'm surprised nobody has come up with a certified lpg system that flues through the floor of the van yet , i would be tempted to buy it.
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The issue is the fumes rise so channeling out the flue would be an issue. Now there are hot water tanks (30l) available that exit through the side which are fitted to caravans but take forever to heat...
I agree it's about time the cheap shower units were upgraded to a better unit.
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Propex make a gas powered air heater that flues through the floor of the van , the same way webasto/eber diesel units do so i can't see that being a problem.
I can't see how it would be any different for a water heater as opposed to an air heater .....they both burn gas and produce fumes.
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I've wondered for a while now if it was a legal requirement to display the sticker if you're carrying gas.
It isn't.
It's probably a good idea, but not a legal requirement.
http://www.bcga.co.uk/pages/download_document.cfm?document_name=L1.pdf
One of the things I have been wondering is it legal to leave a cylinder opened while not in the vehicle or
if that vehicle is on the public road unattended, if not this would mean it would be illegal to have this system running while
your cleaning the property.
It says on the list that they shouldn't be opened while in the vehicle but I wonder does this only apply to a moving
vehicle.
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Propex make a gas powered air heater that flues through the floor of the van , the same way webasto/eber diesel units do so i can't see that being a problem.
I can't see how it would be any different for a water heater as opposed to an air heater .....they both burn gas and produce fumes.
I've wondered if you could modify a proper air heater to run water instead if I could get one cheap enough of have a play
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Propex make a gas powered air heater that flues through the floor of the van , the same way webasto/eber diesel units do so i can't see that being a problem.
I can't see how it would be any different for a water heater as opposed to an air heater .....they both burn gas and produce fumes.
Propex do make a gas water heater for the caravan industry. Its called a Propex Malaga 5E 13 Litre Gas & Electric Water Heater. It has a 13 litre hot water tank which I think is a great feature. But I read somewhere that its only a 5kw heater. It also has a side exhaust but comes with a £350.00 price tag (VAT?)
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I did see that one but a side exhaust is still not ideal and I think it would struggle to keep up with demand .
I did wonder about modifying the propex but could be on dodgy ground doing that I think .
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It is funny it's a little like Chinese whispers it all started as a fAg packet idea to stop people buying gas lol
An exploding bottle does worry me...
Spruce... Looks like you've been plugging away at this for a while then, rather than setting your heater as a demand unit did you look into it heating the water as a hot water tank (like at home) and using a controller with temperature probes to tell the unit when to fire between certain peramitters?
Yes that was a consideration. In fact a Webasto service engineer said that in his opinion it was the only way of doing it successfully. He did point out that as we use pure water, this is what would be inside the Webasto. Under design conditions as a block heater, the Webasto would be protected against frost damage with anti freeze. We would have to find a way to protect the whole unit from frost damage.
I didn't want to heat a whole 650 liter tank of water to say 40 degrees and have half go to 'waste' as we didn't use it that day. What happens if we couldn't get out that day due to sickness or bad weather? At the heat output coming from the Webasto in practice it would take around 7 hours to heat the water in the main tank. At the price of diesel, that's around £9.00. So this heater would use around three times the amount of fuel a week than my van does.
Heating the water you are using at the time makes more financial sense to me.
I've considered a separate smaller 100 litre tank, but that would take up too much space. I have considered a calorifier as a heat source, but none of the manufacturers would commit themselves on suitability. In fact, a well respected supplier into the marine industry suggested I buy one and report back to them of my findings. (They thought using a calorifier as a heat source was a good idea and if it worked, they would adopt the idea.)
To produce a raise of temperature from 9 degrees to 35 degrees (C) at 1.5 LPM would need 2.6kw of heat (from memory). So when starting this many years ago I believed that the Thermo Top C I have would just support 2 pumps with each operator stopping and starting. I presumed that the 5kw was the usable heat, so soon found out that it is a theoretical figure. About 50% of their quoted figure in our application is what is usable. This came as quite a shock to me.
If anyone is going down this route of wanting to build a cheap diesel heater, my advice is to be cautious. The Webasto Thermo Top like mine are very popular second hand as that this what is mainly used in the motor industry. However, you need one that is a universal one which is mainly sold into the marine industry. That uses a standard 'analogue' controller. IF they come out of a specific vehicle, say a BMW, they will only work on a BMW vehicle as the electronics on board will only accept 'orders' from a BMW ECU. You can buy a new circuit board that will work, but will cost £200.00 + import duty from a supplier from Turkey.
Eberspatcher is owned by Webasto as Webasto bought them out 5 or 6 years ago. Eberspatcher are more likely to be a better buy as they aren't generally vehicle specific, but, as they are less popular, spares aren't as readily available.
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I did see that one but a side exhaust is still not ideal and I think it would struggle to keep up with demand .
I did wonder about modifying the propex but could be on dodgy ground doing that I think .
I also think it's too small TBH. I would also hesitate to modify the exhaust.