Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Gerald Ash on December 08, 2014, 08:36:15 am
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Just read a thread where a member labels window cleaners as unskilled workers.
How many people pay minimum wage then are puzzled about the high turnover of staff.
I will employ people next year and this how they will be remunerated.
Firstly, they will be paid a living wage, currently £7.85 per hour. Secondly, they will share 50 per cent of the profit that their van makes.
They will be manual workers as well as sales staff and also customer service reps. they will be doing all the work to profit me so I think they should receive the lions share. My present round will, for a period of time, be funding the wage. I will be making enough to pay a wage and myself.
The wage I pay will obviously be a cost so as long as they work at a profit all`s fine. Of the 50 per cent I get I estimate that half of that will be retained for holiday and down days.
My theory is that the person I employ will directly benefit from how hard they work plus they are less likely to run off with my customers in a few months time.
I would appreciate comments on this, advice and maybe condemnation would be forthcoming as well. Merry Christmas to everyone.
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Sounds good hope it works
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When it comes to working, money isn't the only motivating factor.
If it were, we'd be out working now, instead of taking today off, to go for a nice breakfast and do some Christmas shopping.
One thing that has always put me off with regards to employing is that I'd have to set an example, and that would mean not taking sneaky days off like today; but that's just me.
Have a read up on some leadership and management theory, like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs and Douglas McGregor's XY Theory. There's loads of others that I can't remember.
If I were to employ, I'd look for ex-forces guys, like Stu, because even junior ranks in the military get a lot of leadership training. I'd choose them so I could delegate as much as I could (job expansion is a good thing for an employee), allowing me time to do other things, or go for a nice breakfast and do some Christmas shopping.
Oh, your initial post is very 'Maslow' by the way. We all need our basic needs (food, shelter, clothing - three hots and a cot) catered for; hence a living wage is a good thing. But there comes a point where money won't motivate; there's been lots of studies done around this area.
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Ash your plan is completely flawed, what happens when it comes to costs? Van breakdowns? Etc
I take it you have zero experience employing staff?
Define "profit the van makes" or do you mean turn over minus diesel?
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Ash your plan is completely flawed, what happens when it comes to costs? Van breakdowns? Etc
I take it you have zero experience employing staff?
Define "profit the van makes" or do you mean turn over minus diesel?
+1
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Gerald, in an ideal world..........
I'm guessing you're pretty new to this.
No offence intended as I can see your intentions are honourable but you need to rethink you're entire business plan with regard to basic rate and the profit sharing element will finish you before you start.
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There you go, three of us in one go saying the same thing.
Maybe just stay employed and learn a bit more from the safety cushion that offers
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I ll work for you for 7.85an hr plus 50% of the profit :)
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I pay £10 per hour which is a decent hourly rate. Offer them performance related pay to encourage them to work to a high standard and pace but you can not offer 50% of the profit without first deducting all your costs which include holiday pay, sick pay, insurances, tools, van depreciation, fuel, stationery, uniforms, ink, pens, gloves, cloths you get the idea...
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I pay £10 per hour which is a decent hourly rate. Offer them performance related pay to encourage them to work to a high standard and pace but you can not offer 50% of the profit without first deducting all your costs which include holiday pay, sick pay, insurances, tools, van depreciation, fuel, stationery, uniforms, ink, pens, gloves, cloths you get the idea...
Profit = Turnover - Expenses
I think you need to delete 'profit' and insert 'turnover'.
And the OP did say 'profit', not turnover, so I would assume he meant what you just posted.
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My explanation didn`t go into much detail and I understand about profit and turnover. Any employee will run their van as though it was their own business, they will be given one year to make it pay. I firmly believe in this model of business but will research the maslow thanks Tosh.
Each employee will have a different name on the van so 1, each can be run effectively as a different account/business and 2, If one loses a customer for what ever reason another employee can try to regain the customer.
I don`t know much about advanced business theory but I do believe that a business should be ran from the bottom up. In my old industry of shoe repairs in which I employed people as well as couriers and market trading Timpson`s use bottom up business practice and are very successful because of it.
If someone isn`t pulling their weight then they`re out. I want to be a good employer but they have to be good employees.
I have researched all this and the only thing that will cause it to fail is the people I take on. Of course that is the difficult part and I know that is the only possible flaw, be it a big one.
I can set up a van to work from all in for two thousand. That I will absorb. The wages which will roughly be £11 per hour after PAYE costs.
That will be approximately £60 pound a day or £300 per five day week. I think it can work as I look at it as duplication of me. I work my round and use some of the money to set up another van. I will not be able to take any money from that van for a year or so but build thing s slowly with a view to long term it`ll work. Finally, At any point it threatens the overall business it`ll be stopped. I appreciate any input because it helps with things I may not have thought of. Cheers guys
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so they will canvass their own work ?
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Why not franchise?
Vin
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customers? Do you think you can get enough of them? Are you stacked out with so much work at the moment you can't cope on your own?
Have you won the lottery?
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Have i read this right, £7.85 + 50% of profit of what they've cleaned?
So an 7 hour day (assuming lunch hour is unpaid?) x 7.85 = £55 (bar a few pence)
They clean £150 (easier to work out) take out £30(ish) a day expenses means another £60 a day...
So you're looking at paying £120ish a day....?
(Genuine question, not sarcy!)
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Secondly, they will share 50 per cent of the profit that their van makes.
These are the kind of figures a partner gets not an employee. Think about it Gerald :)
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not getting into wages as that's your business but would want all my customers knowing it was my company cleaning them .... doing it your way would make it easier for a rouge employee to nick all of your customers IMHO
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The more you pay them the more tax you and them pay on it there is a fine balance. You don't really want to be teaching someone how to canvass properly or anything to do with running a business they will set up on there own eventually no matter what you pay them if they have that sort of mentality. You need to do alot of proper interviewing and don't employ mates or family ideally you want previous references from jobs. If there to ambitious you don't want them. If they go to the pub every night you don't want them, just go carefull with it and really concider all the costs. Cashflow can be a problem also
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not getting into wages as that's your business but would want all my customers knowing it was my company cleaning them .... doing it your way would make it easier for a rouge employee to nick all of your customers IMHO
Agreed!!
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If I`d won the lottery I wouldn`t be planning this. My theory is they can earn very good money without the hassle of running their own business. When they can`t work they get paid. If someone offered me a job on these terms I`d jump at it.
Finding the right people IS going to be the nightmare. An intelligent person will see the advantages for them but may decide to start up on their own anyway.
Franchises are a possibility but they are again complex and you have little control on people using your name. The daily costs will be deducted from take and split 50/50. I won`t get to keep much in reality but the point is I have a van and man out there earning me money. I have one hundred per cent of what I make but maybe ten percent of what they make but I`m not working for that ten percent, duplication of me that`s the idea. As to the work I have, well I have enough to pay a wage but not as yet a big enough cushion to start. As I said in the very beginning on this forum I don`t need much to live on. I know the details fully and as long as I can find the right person to start it will work but again that`s the flaw.
I know it may sound crazy but it`s unusual to think about running a business in this manner. I believe it will work but admit it will be risky to start with and be risky in some ways long term as employees could walk off with customers but thats a risk for everyone.
There is another reason, I`m fit and strong at thirty stone but at 48 I know my body will give up on me in the next ten years if I`m lucky maybe less so I have to set up something soon.
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You still haven't addressed the fundamental flaw in this - where are the customers? How quick can you provide work?
And not being funny why not lose a hell of a lot of weight and improve your chances of staying fit and working longer?
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Well, there's a thing - I guess thats the end of the thread then ;D
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Unusual for me but honestly not taking the pee this time.
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I`ve lost twenty stone already and it`s coming off slowly. I am 6`3" and underneath the fat there is some muscle so it`s not quite as bad as it sounds but yes I do need to lose another ten stone. The customers will be found. There`s a lot of new estates being built around here. The plan is next year but that`s not written in stone, it will be started when it has the best chance to sustain itself.
If I`m wrong then it won`t work but surely it`s worth a try. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
I love working the windows, meeting people and to add I do not take work from others. There`s loads of work out there to be had and I walk about three miles a day finding it.
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Gerald are you the really big guy who said he had to do WFP because he was too big to climb a ladder, had a spread in the local paper after setting up from unemployment?
That was about 18 months ago as I recall.
You have done really well if you now have enough work to start employing.
Fast mover.
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I predict Cash flow as being a potential problem.
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Gerald, go ahead with this pie in the sky and you're about to lose at least a bit of optimism, at worst a lot more.
Seriously, go back to the drawing board. If you have anything about you then rerun your plan (though I suspect this should read 'run your plan' as I doubt you've actually thought this through). Be more realistic.
If I had nothing better to do I could show you beyond doubt this will fail, but this is your problem to sort.
As said, you are 100% destined to fail, do yourself a favour. I'd go as far as to say you'll not even get up and running.
The cynic in me suspects this is a wind up, but I worry for you that it's not................
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I predict Cash flow as being a potential problem.
lol, you may be right. You may also be missing a few other 'issues'............
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With this financial model, you won't earn enough to replace the van in three/four years time. It is completely flawed.
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Go to a bank with this business plan, see if they would be willing to financially back your plan.....Sorry but they probably wouldn't be able to keep a straight face.
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doing it your way would make it easier for a rouge employee to nick all of your customers IMHO
Yeah but the red cheeks would give them away, so would be easy to spot. ;)
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Everyone is pointing out the financial problems you'll face with your plan but the other thing to consider is you'll being coping with the extra wages, employee and expense problems, dealing with extra customers, extra monies coming in and the lack of work should we have severe flooding or the country grinds to a halt because of snow storms like in the past Also the mental headache of being extra organised dealing and staying on top of everything, got to put aside for unforeseen hassles and need to make it worth your trouble for the headache of building turnover not profit. Good luck, rather you than me. Done it three times, don't wish to do it again, like an easy life with profit and minimal hassle.
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Stick to working on your own mate iv had people working in the past cant be bothered anymore alot of hassle
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Pie I the sky, we'll you may all be right. I am planning to start when my own work can safely sustain another persons wage and enough to live on myself which at present is £25 per day and I live happily on that. I have put this in much more detail to my accountant and at first he thought I was mad but when he went through the idea and figures he admitted that it would work as long as I found the right person and as said we don't have six foot of snow for three months. I have a budget to build this and at the point where it threatens the business as a whole it will be stopped. I have faith in human nature and to Tosh, I've read Maslows theory on hierarchy of need and the updated version and also his idea of the qualities of a self-actualiser and believe it or not many of those qualities describe me but I'm nowhere near there yet.
It's an idea I've been thinking of since I started the business and it has evolved and probably evolve more. It may never happen or it could happen by April who knows.
Finally there is a theory that if you think of how it could succeed instead of how it could fail then you can see it differently. I sincerely hope I'm right and if I'm not then I'll be posting on here for a job.
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Pie I the sky, we'll you may all be right. I am planning to start when my own work can safely sustain another persons wage and enough to live on myself which at present is £25 per day and I live happily on that. I have put this in much more detail to my accountant and at first he thought I was mad but when he went through the idea and figures he admitted that it would work as long as I found the right person and as said we don't have six foot of snow for three months. I have a budget to build this and at the point where it threatens the business as a whole it will be stopped. I have faith in human nature and to Tosh, I've read Maslows theory on hierarchy of need and the updated version and also his idea of the qualities of a self-actualiser and believe it or not many of those qualities describe me but I'm nowhere near there yet.
It's an idea I've been thinking of since I started the business and it has evolved and probably evolve more. It may never happen or it could happen by April who knows.
Finally there is a theory that if you think of how it could succeed instead of how it could fail then you can see it differently. I sincerely hope I'm right and if I'm not then I'll be posting on here for a job.
Am i reading this right Gerald? You're making £25 a day and looking to employ someone?
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At £25 a day Gerald you'll have lots of offers.
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doing it your way would make it easier for a rouge employee to nick all of your customers IMHO
Yeah but the red cheeks would give them away, so would be easy to spot. ;)
:-[
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You seem like a nice bloke out to do a good thing.
Putting aside the finances which seem a bit flawed.
I'm not sure the type of person you need exists.
If they are bright enough to work the business the way you want then they're more than bright enough to set up on their own, hopefully they won't take all your customers with them.
A previous post was right suggesting a franchisee.
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Gerard,
How is the weight loss going? Why not focus on that and maybe work and business will take care of itself?
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Mate, you will be making a big, big mistake.
I do understand your ideals especially if your view tends towards socialism, as mine does, but things don't work quite like that. You will end up possibly being ripped off or working just to pay your employee.
I've employed in the past and it's a different world viewed from the outside to when you are actually doing it.
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Is this not the point when you all turn on Ash as his idea is revolutionary. CIU members don`t like revolutionaries.
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Pie I the sky, we'll you may all be right. I am planning to start when my own work can safely sustain another persons wage and enough to live on myself which at present is £25 per day and I live happily on that. I have put this in much more detail to my accountant and at first he thought I was mad but when he went through the idea and figures he admitted that it would work as long as I found the right person and as said we don't have six foot of snow for three months. I have a budget to build this and at the point where it threatens the business as a whole it will be stopped. I have faith in human nature and to Tosh, I've read Maslows theory on hierarchy of need and the updated version and also his idea of the qualities of a self-actualiser and believe it or not many of those qualities describe me but I'm nowhere near there yet.
It's an idea I've been thinking of since I started the business and it has evolved and probably evolve more. It may never happen or it could happen by April who knows.
Finally there is a theory that if you think of how it could succeed instead of how it could fail then you can see it differently. I sincerely hope I'm right and if I'm not then I'll be posting on here for a job.
Gerald, I wouldn't normally get involved this much but here are a few basic questions for you (no need to answer, just think about them): -
What level of experience with either employing directly, via sub-contractor or even just senior man management via a previous employment?
How will you recruit? Experienced window cleaners fall into any of a few of categories. Self employed with own round, business owner - employing, working for a cleaning firm or window cleaning firm. If you aren't established you will struggle to find good staff.
How will you manage your people. What targets and objectives will you set. How will you monitor performance, quality, attendance etc....
Do you work a two man team already?
How will you cover holidays? Minimum 28 days per full time employee?
What about sickness?
What level of capital do you have? Cashflow can finish you off.
What is your average revenue per year and month for the past five years.
Where are the new sources of revenue? If already covering why change?
How will you finance the purchase / lease of the vans?
How will you insure the vans (zero no claims, named driver, any driver over 25, clean licence, 6 points....)?
What level of equipment will each van have? WFP or Trad? Ladders, roof rack, signwriting?
You keep going on about Maslow. To be honest I think there are other more relative theories you could make use of. Maslow is used by larger companies as part of management training to highlight and identify motivations. Whilst his hierarchy of needs or whatever it is called makes complete sense it will be of zero use to you in this scenario.
Your accountant is having a laugh. I suspect he had just had enough of telling you "no chance" and you not listening, very much like on here.
I'm not saying don't give it a shot, I am saying if you do, and stick with your current plan, you WILL fail. I think you'll fail before you even get started.
Just so you understand I'm not this huge pessimist trying to ruin your dreams. I am speaking from experience. I have managed multi million pound contracts within the logistics industry, I have taken part in courses and even presented a few on various management systems and techniques. I have taken many workshops and team building events. Following on from redundancy a few years back I took a wrong turn and ended up running a cleaning firm. We have 12 direct employees and a number of sub-contractors. Even though we have a solid team, we have a strong customer base and decent revenue streams and profit, I could not suceed with your plan.
Now, if you are still sure you can succeed with your plan, then go for it, it's yours to lose......
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Good luck to you Gerald,
You're going to need each van hitting a substantial amount of turnover to make it worthwhile, but no reason why it can't be done this way.
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You keep going on about Maslow. To be honest I think there are other more relative theories you could make use of. Maslow is used by larger companies as part of management training to highlight and identify motivations. Whilst his hierarchy of needs or whatever it is called makes complete sense it will be of zero use to you in this scenario.
Whenever (mostly) someone starts a post about motivating employees, it invariably revolves around how much they're going to be paid.
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (and many other studies) show that money is not the sole motivating factor. Of course people need to be paid enough to ensure that they can live (the lower strata of the hierarchy), but there's much more to it.
David of St Ives - for example - used to ensure all his staff went on formal training courses. I'm pretty sure Dean does the same too. They invest in their staff and no doubt they feel valued because of it (feeling valued is higher up the strata than our basic needs).
My point is, it's not just money. As for the rest of the stuff, sure Gerald will need to work it out, but I'm pretty sure - speaking as someone who has recovered from a life threatening addiction myself - that he needs to work himself out first.
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Having read the original post and all of his replies to questions one thing puzzles me.
He's gone on and on about paying a great wage to his future employees yet never once said he's like a decent wage himself.
Now call me greedy but I work as hard as I do to make money for me; if employing someone didn't raise my profits I wouldn't do it.
You have to pay a decent wage but at the end of the day this is your business mate and you should be the one making the most out of it.
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Having read the original post and all of his replies to questions one thing puzzles me.
He's gone on and on about paying a great wage to his future employees yet never once said he's like a decent wage himself.
Now call me greedy but I work as hard as I do to make money for me; if employing someone didn't raise my profits I wouldn't do it.
You have to pay a decent wage but at the end of the day this is your business mate and you should be the one making the most out of it.
That's because he doesn't, even when he was at rock bottom he still wanted to give part of his takings to charity.
Gerald's motivation is to give a few people the chance of employment and still have a few quid
leftover to keep him going when he's no longer fit to do the job.
Maybe I wrong but I seem to remember him saying that he was never happy when he had money and has no wish to chase
after it again.
I honestly don't know if his plan will work but good luck to him.
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Of course I`m making a lot more than £25 a day thats what I live on including rent, every penny over goes back to the business and I spend as little as possible.
The plan is relatively simple. Kit out van at minimum cost, as stated about two grand including van, have contacts so can save a fair bit. My round will support a wage to start off with. I can take £100 in a morning if I go for it on my own so a younger fitter guy should do £150. The wage should cost me about sixty all in. That leaves £90 so say £10 for derv and another £10 for insurances and such. That leaves £70 which £35 goes to employee and £35 to me. The profit payment will be paid one month in arrears and my share will be put aside as I can live off of my round.
You guys are thinking about your lives with perhaps mortgages and van leases and the like. I can save the cash and won`t need any loans.
I have to buy a van in April costing £30,000 but I have a friend coming in with me on that so don`t think I`m doing that well.
As long as we can get the work it won`t be difficult. I have a good success rate on the doors as I average four to five new customers an hour when canvassing. Hope this clarifies some things. I do have A level maths and took A level accountancy many years ago but forgotten most and they didn`t have computer software back then. I`m doing this to build myself a retirement fund so I live as cheaply as I can to build the business up. I`ve had loads of money in the past and wasted it. I appreciate all comments as it gives me food for thought. As for the weight I was thirty-nine stone at last Christmas and at present weigh thirty stone eight pounds. Cheers guys.
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I want to live not exist. This business is absolutely the best I`ve ever done. My history is running shoe repair, courier, car dealing and market trading. All those businesses were profitable but every penny was wasted on rubbish and when things went pear shaped at the end of the eighties I had no cushion to get through the bad patch. This time I save every single penny I can and live as cheaply as I can. Tosh, you speak of the money not being the only goal but it is a gateway to higher goals. This job offers very good money for those who want to work hard. Within that possibility a person can earn a living wage in a shorter time and have more time for his family and this plan can give someone that chance plus I earn a little bit more. As I`ve said they will have a set time to get into profit. It`s quite possible to work like hell in the morning, make enough for a reasonable bonus and plenty of time for other things.
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I made a basic mistake when I first employed: I was like you, wanting to be as fair as possible to my employees so I set an upper turnover limit above which everything the employee turned over was his. Below that figure I was paying them a percentage of the turnover.
What I hadn't realised was that I still had to pay employers liability, national insurance etc etc on all the money they earned above my limit.
I was paying that out of my share but the total I had to pay went up as their earnings went up but I wasn't getting any more!!
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your making out your doing someone a favour employing them, like charity give a man a job etc
you forget there are people out there who go around with a chip on there shoulder looking to screw the boss out of everything, who think that the business owes them a favour for turning up on time.
some employee's take the p, they will cut corners lose you customers and be off like a shot without a care for something you have spent years building and ploughed thousands of pounds into,
some people are more interested in having a secure job, turning up in the morning and leaving at the end of the day without the burden of running a business, that is the bosses job and its the boss/owner who takes the profit, employees get wages
Gerald people get nasty when it comes to money and you sound as weak as they come, you will get screwed over, it will not be worth it and its got fail written all over it
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Franchises are a possibility but they are again complex and you have little control on people using your name.
You have a great deal of control over people using your name. You trademark it and you own it; along with a watertight contract, you're covered.
If you want people who are motivated, who could be more motivated than someone who runs their own business under your name? If you want your people to be content in what they do, let them be the owners of their own business. Franchising sounds very much like something that would allow you to get you to what you're trying to achieve.
Vin
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You keep going on about Maslow. To be honest I think there are other more relative theories you could make use of. Maslow is used by larger companies as part of management training to highlight and identify motivations. Whilst his hierarchy of needs or whatever it is called makes complete sense it will be of zero use to you in this scenario.
Whenever (mostly) someone starts a post about motivating employees, it invariably revolves around how much they're going to be paid.
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs (and many other studies) show that money is not the sole motivating factor. Of course people need to be paid enough to ensure that they can live (the lower strata of the hierarchy), but there's much more to it.
David of St Ives - for example - used to ensure all his staff went on formal training courses. I'm pretty sure Dean does the same too. They invest in their staff and no doubt they feel valued because of it (feeling valued is higher up the strata than our basic needs).
My point is, it's not just money. As for the rest of the stuff, sure Gerald will need to work it out, but I'm pretty sure - speaking as someone who has recovered from a life threatening addiction myself - that he needs to work himself out first.
Here's a terrific presentation on why it's not just money. ten minutes long, so don't click if you don't have the attention span. If you do, it's quirky, engaging and very educational.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc
Vin
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If you want to build a nest egg for your future then work your tits off concentrating on getting really good prices and not average prices working yourself to death. I get 1 in 2 or 3 quotes I give and 1 in 3 are a waste of time quoting as too small or access problems, dodgy areas. I don't want to get every customer going, just the best ones suitable for my preferences. Work hard and smart, save some money and invest in a run down property at auction and learn DIY and go college to do bricklaying, etc courses, they are not that expensive and good fun socialising with others. Bricks and mortar are the way forward regarding pensions. Put all your effort into letting your own property and you won't go wrong.
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I do appear soft and gentle and in general I am but I do not take carp and I can communicate very well and assertively and not bullying. The PROFIT is what I share not turnover that is not possible. If there is no profit they get basic wage which I can finance with my round. If it doesn`t work then it`ll be dropped or possibly sold to someone but I know it can work.
Also I will start it when I have enough in the bank to finance six months wages.
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The problem with profit is it nett profit and gross profit. You gross is turn over and net earnings with out nothing to pay out except tax. Then its yours to spend as you wish. A few day accounting lessons would not go a miss.
I think what Ash is alluding to is profit shearing scheme, which is based on net profit and therefore after all expenses.
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You should know all expenses your business will have for at least one month in advance. There are obviously unpredictable things like blown tyre or equipment breakdown and that`s why profit share will be paid one month in arrears. This way it`s unlikely there will be any inaccuracy in payments. Tax and N.I is set in stone and is not an issue. Targets will be set and must be met but on an average basis, ie average £80 per working day not including down days due to weather as that would be unfair.
I hope this makes things clear, I have been a bit carp in explaining so sorry about that.
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Down south you would be lucky to get anyone to work for £60 a day maybe while there learning the job but that would be about it,for manual work that's not good money you would have to offer a £150-200 weekly bonus if they hit target or they would be nicking from you at every chance they got. You need to pay them more than they can get doing something similar and make sure they have bills to pay that way they'll come in everyday or almost
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The level of basic is a living wage as defined by the living wage foundation. If I pay £10 ph it will mean less profit to share as costs will be higher. Anyone successful will be made quite clear on the aims of the business. I will explain that their wage is a cost and will be deducted from the monies taken before bonus is paid.
That is the whole point, I will share the profits which will come with effort on the employees part. Back to the hierarchy theme, they will be strongly motivated to build their round which is a great sense of achievement, I know it is for me. In affect it will be their business, they will benefit directly from their efforts plus when the weather is too bad to work they still have money coming in. Can anyone honestly say that when you can`t work it does not effect what you earn other times. Traders at Weston work the summer to live the winter. They could be earning £20 ph but take the winter into account they will have less than half of that rate in reality.
If the person applying for the job can`t understand this they are not suitable.
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The level of basic is a living wage as defined by the living wage foundation. If I pay £10 ph it will mean less profit to share as costs will be higher. Anyone successful will be made quite clear on the aims of the business. I will explain that their wage is a cost and will be deducted from the monies taken before bonus is paid.
That is the whole point, I will share the profits which will come with effort on the employees part. Back to the hierarchy theme, they will be strongly motivated to build their round which is a great sense of achievement, I know it is for me. In affect it will be their business, they will benefit directly from their efforts plus when the weather is too bad to work they still have money coming in. Can anyone honestly say that when you can`t work it does not effect what you earn other times. Traders at Weston work the summer to live the winter. They could be earning £20 ph but take the winter into account they will have less than half of that rate in reality.
If the person applying for the job can`t understand this they are not suitable.
If a person wants to work for somebody else its because they don't want the responsibility or risks that comes from working for
yourself or don't have the confidence or finances needed to work for themselves.
So what your saying is your going to take all the risks supply all the equipment and financially support them while they are building
a round.
Then once your input is no longer needed you will still expect them to give you a cut indefinitely, make sure you get a well written
contract on this one.
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Again if they build it to an exceptional level that is a risk. I would counter that with a higher cut of profits above a certain level. Perhaps if they exceed £200 a day then they keep whats over 200 less costs and tax/NI.
At that level I should be getting approximately £50 a day which for doing very little isn`t bad I think. There are guys on here claiming £500 a day which you deduct the 50 percent bravado isn`t far short.
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Gerald; you're making a serious mistake if you think that simply paying people more will make them work better. There are reams and reams of studies and evidence that contradict that. Have a look at the presentation I linked to above. More money tends to make people do their job worse and to be unhappier in their work. Odd but true.
Vin
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I'm sure the Tesco executives would agree.
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Sorry Vin can`t find link but I partially disagree because it isn`t all about money. I want to build something for my decrepitude but not only that help someone build a good living. So many people work long hours for poor pay but that isn`t about the money even then it`s quality of life. At minimum wage on 40 hours that would be £260 with roughly £30 deducted. At living wage it`s nearly £40 more a week, put that together with profit share then after a year of hard work they have the chance to have that quality of life.
When I started I worked from 8am until 8pm with no breaks. Now I start at 9am and finish at 1 or 2pm then a couple of hours canvassing in the evenings. come the spring I`ll be back at twelve hour days to boost the company further to buy a van then hopefully later in the year employ.
You get out of life what you put in is not a cliche it is the truth. What I put into helping an employee I will get out, not only in money but in the fact that I will help a parent spend more time with their child or possibly an ex serviceman build a life in civilian life.
That`s the plan. It will take money but it`s not all about the money
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Gerald; you're making a serious mistake if you think that simply paying people more will make them work better. There are reams and reams of studies and evidence that contradict that. Have a look at the presentation I linked to above. More money tends to make people do their job worse and to be unhappier in their work. Odd but true.
Vin
Very true...
I've had experience in the past of giving someone a pay rise and then their quality of work dropped, they started turning up late a lot of the time, their attitude got worse... It's because they got complacent... I got rid of them in the end.
Andy
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Simple, if they p me about they`re down the road. As I`ve said things will be made very clear and if they behave as I require it will be heaven to work for if not hell is short lived. People seem to hesitate when things need saying but if you leave it then it becomes harder. Speak your mind and address them adult to adult, not parent to child or child to parent. bBe fair, calm and assertive that is the only way you should treat anyone 99 per cent of the time.
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Gerald, if you're only working half a day now, how many more customers do you think you're going to need to get another van going 3x what you have now or more?
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Based on my limited experience employing, I would say best way to take on employees is to start them off in the van with you. This keeps costs down gives you the chance to see their true character, speed and quality of work and how they interact with customers. Customers will also get used to the new face and associate them with you. This will also bring in more money before paying out for another van and equipment. If it works and they are trustworthy and you have too much work for 2 people this is when you set up another van for them and then take on another employee who you can train and assess.
You said someone younger and fitter than you will do more work than you, this is wrong, an employee will not have same motivation as you. A round earning a good income for a one man band will not necessary be priced right for employing so a hard price rise may also be needed before employing as your work will need to be very well priced.
Finally I believe a good rule is what every an employee costs a business is what a business should make from the employee as the business has things the employee doesn't eg equipment, customer base etc
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FFS :o
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Again if they build it to an exceptional level that is a risk. I would counter that with a higher cut of profits above a certain level. Perhaps if they exceed £200 a day then they keep whats over 200 less costs and tax/NI.
At that level I should be getting approximately £50 a day which for doing very little isn`t bad I think. There are guys on here claiming £500 a day which you deduct the 50 percent bravado isn`t far short.
Hi Gerald. I've never employed anyone. If you are going to set up something with fixed numbers like that, ensure there is some wriggle room to allow for inflation if you intend to be in this for the long term. It's easy to ignore at the moment with low inflation rates - but there was a time when the annual inflation rate hit 25% way back. Even at 5%, the value of money depreciates quite quickly (taking compound interest into account).
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Simple, if they p me about they`re down the road. As I`ve said things will be made very clear and if they behave as I require it will be heaven to work for if not hell is short lived. People seem to hesitate when things need saying but if you leave it then it becomes harder. Speak your mind and address them adult to adult, not parent to child or child to parent. bBe fair, calm and assertive that is the only way you should treat anyone 99 per cent of the time.
Sounds like a bit of transactional analysis there - or whatever they call it these days. Adult-adult is brilliant. Unfortunately, some people slip into child mode as a long ingrained habit and it can be very difficult to help them break it; partly because they don't know that they are doing it and partly because such things are usually better left to those who have undergone the appropriate psychological training.
I really do applaud your ethics Gerald. For it to work in business, I suspect that you will need to find people who share those ethics. That last bit can be difficult. As a sidetrack, I've noticed that in places where I've worked as an employee (a long time back) the personality of the boss is often reflected a long way down the hierarchy - even through multiple layers down to the shop floor. It's as if each level employs kindred spirits without actually realising it :)
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To pay his wages insurances running a van and everything that goes with it your figures are way way off IMO,your not even working out on 365 days a year sunshine. He wants to be doing 1k a week on his own to even bother straight away you'll be over the VAT limit so when you cost that and all his benefits you'll be worse off
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Bugger VAT is something I hadn`t thought of, will have to look into that. May be able to adjust to stay under. not sure what level of turnover you have to register. I know that it used to be one quarter to start but you had to be under three quarters to deregister.
You may have shot me down in flames NWH. Better now than next year but I dare say there might be a way round it hopefully.
I could register a separate LTD company as minority director then VAT will be treated as separate from any where I`m a majority director but that will only work once.
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Get someone to come and work with you start them on £7 per hour and build up your business from there. You deal with customers and canvassing and tell him as little as possible in regards to how you started up,how to canvass successfully what u charge. Tell him nothing, when he has proved himself and you have a big enough round send him in a van on his £7 an hour but give him monthly bonuses for hitting targets. Inform all customers by no means are they to pay him as he will start looking at the cash and resenting it. Secondly make your system look complicated or box the pump battery etc in and tell him nothing at all about how the setup works the less they know the better in my opinion, all they need to know is how to do a good Jo and hit there targets
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I must admit my model is not simple to execute and is open to abuse from an employee. A straight forward wage is simple but still open to abuse.
I have definitely had my idea battered and yes I will concede it does look in the light of what has been said flawed in many ways. I`m thinking of still doing it but employ in a much simpler way first.
I still know it will work but with some mods. I`m also considering franchise but not for a while to say the least.
I need to build something to give me a living within the next two to five years.
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Gerald ... think your vastly vastly over complicating things ... remember its only window cleaning ;D
if you want to be a very generous / fair employer then drop the hourly rate to nothing and pay him a share of the vans turnover less expenses.
EG Van does £200 ... take of £5 for fuel and say £25 for other expenses then "pay" him 50% of whats left ... even that prob too generous but you could alter figures to suit yourselve ... if van don't work due to weather then nowt to pay out.
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Get someone to come and work with you start them on £7 per hour and build up your business from there. You deal with customers and canvassing and tell him as little as possible in regards to how you started up,how to canvass successfully what u charge. Tell him nothing, when he has proved himself and you have a big enough round send him in a van on his £7 an hour but give him monthly bonuses for hitting targets. Inform all customers by no means are they to pay him as he will start looking at the cash and resenting it. Secondly make your system look complicated or box the pump battery etc in and tell him nothing at all about how the setup works the less they know the better in my opinion, all they need to know is how to do a good Jo and hit there targets
;D ;D
Thats funny.
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Gerald ... think your vastly vastly over complicating things ... remember its only window cleaning ;D
if you want to be a very generous / fair employer then drop the hourly rate to nothing and pay him a share of the vans turnover less expenses.
EG Van does £200 ... take of £5 for fuel and say £25 for other expenses then "pay" him 50% of whats left ... even that prob too generous but you could alter figures to suit yourselve ... if van don't work due to weather then nowt to pay out.
How I first got into windows was:
I cleaned his round using his van and I got 50%.
He paid for everything except diesel.
I could clean as much as I wanted of my own stuff as long as his work took president.
Maybe try that Gerald.
It's more than fair.