Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Mike Halliday on April 15, 2006, 07:24:13 am
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last year I clean a suite which contained an acid sensitive dye which turned the green fabric pink. I could not correct the problem and my insurance company replaced the suite.
Dave lee has just had the same problem with with exactly the same suite.
i thinks is very important that everyone is aware of this suite.
there are pictures of this suite on;
www. truck moun ters .co.uk look at 'problem suite'
moderators, please leave this link on because everyone needs to see this suite to stop anyone else getting caught out.
Mike
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Mike,
Any chance you can post a picture on here? as some of us can't get on that site.
Arthur
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here it is
(http://img112.i.us/img112/8600/2problemsuitenovapril200600200.jpg)
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Mike,
Thanks for posting picture.
I have cleaned this type of suite in the past without problem.
What did you use and what did Dave use , was it MS.
Cheers
Doug
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this type of suite .... there are lots of suites like this which are probably safe to clean I'm warning about this exact suite,
I cleaned it with M'S and rinsed off with freshwater, I don't know what Dave used.
Mike
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What was the length of time before this happened Mike, was it appearing straight away, or did it take a few hours or longer?
I was also wondering if this suite is prone to do this after a length of time, how long it would have taken to dry naturally or was it dried by fan?
Dave
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Mike,
IS the suite a type of chenille as i had a blue suite made of chenille and that started to get the acid burn effect?
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Mike ,
I have cleaned exactly the same type of suite several times without problems and am trying to find a common thread between your and Daves' problems .
If you both used microsplitters then it could be a factor.
Cheers
Doug
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To my knowledge this can be reversed although when the same thing happened to me I didnt know it could be and ended up buying the customer a new one. It is only in England that you can make this type of claim and the insurers would pay out. In the U.S. there isnt any type of treatments risk. Ayway, Paul Pearce told me how to sort the problem out but I cant remember what it was that had to be done, only that it can be restored to "normal". What causes the colour change is because of a tracer dye that is used in the process of colouring the fabric in the first place. You can watch it change from the pink to green just by using acids and alkalines, very nice to look at as it changes instantly from one to the other. I just was never able to leave it at the green colour , it always went back to red, either insantly as I said or over a few hours. To my knowledge this only happens to green going to red or pink but again Paul I am sure will know if other colours behave as badly. Best, Dave.
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The problem is ph sensitive fabric, and is normally solved by leaving the fabric at exactly 7 on the scale.
Like Liahona Paul Pearce showed me this exact fabric last year, and the problem can be solved, its fairly straight forward but does not always work permanently.
As ms dry neutral, it could be the tap water which is slightly acidic or using cleaning solutions which leaves the suite in a ph state above or below 7. A real nasty one this fabric as you cant really test for it. A good reason why we all need treatment risk insurance.
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Mark,
I find the MS dry neutral a spurious argument , as without water ther is no dissociation and therefore no pH so everything dries neutral .
When mosture is added however , water vapour etc then the pH will not be neutral.
it doesn't make sense that sodium tripolyphosphate which is alkaline will become neutral unless there is something to neutralise it.
http://www.chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/inorganic/STPP.htm
Cheers
Doug
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I can see your point, and the ph levels for ms vary anyway depending on which one you use i.e the woolsafe one is 6.3 etc. I dont think it really matters what solution you use, this is a problem with the fabric which normally shows itself in the weeks after you have cleaned it, and sometimes straight away!
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Mark,
It is the other ingredients such as buffers which will determine the pH of the solution .
I am more intersted in the effect that the absence of detergents will mean less phosphate is removed , as poorer wetting / suspension will occur and this is causing the colour change.
Must be worth looking into .
If anyone has a sample of this material I would be intersted in doing a few experiments.
Cheers
Doug
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How do you identify the fabric????
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It is the other ingredients such as buffers which will determine the pH of the solution .
I thought ph is a measure of Hydrogen ions in solution. A buffer simply stops ph change, and acts as a sponge allowing hydrogen ions to be absorbed until it reaches its point of exhaustion. Only after this point will the product change ph when in dissociation and will vary with temperature etc.
I cant see wetting or suspension making any difference, as this problem occurs when using detergents, which we have seen, and as you cant really test for it, its just a matter of knowing how to put it right ;)
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Hi Mark,
Have we seen this problem with detergents or is it a MS phenomenon?
Cheers
Doug
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From what ive seen and the people ive spoken too, its possible to change the colour of the fabric using any solution (ms, detergents, ammonia, acid rince) going left and right on the ph scale. Only when you leave it at 7 it solves the problem. Even when some have solved the problem it has come back a few weeks later because the the problem solver solution evaporated..(there are a few ways to solve it) Is it only just this fabric?(not likely gov).
Like you say it would be nice if the people that have this fabric available to them to post some results, as its been around for a while now and only when people have problems and claims made against them do we here about it. Is there a test that works on the day? From what ive seen you can only test then leave to dry natually, even then it might bite back you a few weeks down the road...its the stuff of nightmares.
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When i had a problem with this fabric i could get an immediate response with a strong acid solution, so this colour change can be tested for
just carry a small bottle of solution of around 2-3ph and apply it to an inconspicuous area.
Mike
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As Mike has stated I did have the same problem recently. I have copied the last post I made on the subject in another forum, for your interest:-
Thanks for the info Shaun. I sent Mike Halliday the details and he has replied that the exact thing did happen to him last year with the exact same fabric. Anyway the top and bottom of it is, that the fabric dye is ACID sensitive and reacts to an acid OR fresh water rinse. I rinsed with a very dilute self neutralising detergent, thinking I was playing safe - If I had used a stronger alkaline non neutraising one, it probably would not have happened. Just shows how you can be taken unawares. After I was called back to it, I tested unafected areas with A neutral, alkaline and an acid solution. The first two had no effect, but when I applied a small amount of the acidic solution the fabric immediatly turned red.
I used a light spray application of the most basic alkaline, Sodium BiCarbonate, brushed it in and the redness faded away in minutes. Nine days later it hadn't returned, so hopefully thats that. Beware of this fabric!
Another pic,
Dave.
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Hi,
From what i remember Paul Pearce saying, these dyes are called indicator dyes. If these are the same as the indicator dyes in chemistry (the ones on litmus paper for example) then they alter colour with relation to pH.
Litmus paper is
red in acid (pH <7) >> use distilled vinegar to change it to red
green @ neutral pH =7
blue in alkali (pH >7) >> use sodium bicarbonate solution to change it to blue
On the NCCA course Paul showed us a fabric that had been changed to a red coulour by the acid rinse and he made it blue/green again by spraying it with sodium bicarbonate solution.
Maybe these couches are coloured using these types of dyes? Its worth a try at least.
Hope this helps
Graeme Thurston
Access Cleaning Solutions
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Doug,
I wonder if the phosphates in MS degrade to small amounts of phosphoric/other lesser oxygenated phoshporous based acids? I cant think what else they would degrade to...
If splitters go off to acids then a lag in turning red might be expected. By lag i mean weeks+ as decomposition of the splitter would take time.
What u think?
Graeme
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The lag has also been seen with using ammonia? Phosphates are also used as buffers in some detergents?? I see this an indicator die problem in the fabric that simply respondes to ph.
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Hi,
I can see why you would see lag with ammonia. Its quite complicated but ill give it a go. And remember its only a theory as i am not entirely sure of the dye structure.
Basically, its the negatively charged ion of the dye that is blue and with ammonia you do this:
Ion(-)H(+) and NH3{GAS} <reversible> Ion(-)NH4(+)
So you give the dye a negative charge and create an ammonium ion. This process is reversible and because ammonia is a volitile gas, over time it will evapourate.
In chemistry we call it (and excuse my spelling) Le-Chitelliers principle. As the ammonia is volitile the reaction is driven to give you a red colour over time.
To avoid this you will need a non volitile alkali, or ideally sodium bicarbonate.
Ion(-)H(+) and Na(+)HCO3(-) <reversible> Ion(-)Na(+) + H2O + CO2{GAS}
This ustilises the same principle, but will make it turn blue as the carbon dioxide will boil off and force the reaction to the blue side.
Hope this makes sense.
Graeme Thurston
Access Cleaning Solutions
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Thanks for that. that takes me back.
Someone has just piped up on another forum -
""I used a chemical powder of pH 9.5 and left the suite alkali, it had the same affect. My customer called to complain a whole 6 months after the clean! ""
Which still makes me think its an indicator die problem caused by ph.
The plot thickens!
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Mark,
Its still quite a mistery though, isnt it. Going off the Indicator dye, chemical principle, you would have expected the fabric, when subjected to 9.5pH to have turned Blue not Red. It seems that the fabrics dye IS pH sensitive, but for some reason not yet established, which ever side its subjected to Alkaline or Acidic, it turns RED over a period of days to months. Added to this, is that for whatever reason, a basic alkaline (Sodium BiCarbonate) solution misted on and brushed in, will rectify it!!??
Dave.
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I cleaned this exact same suite in Orpington, Kent and suffered the exact same problem. I quickly turned the tables of liability by producing an inspection report including photo's for the client to present to the retailer. The retailer accepted liability over the phone to myself while still in the clients house just on the basis of me announcing my accreditations and membership no's. and informing them that I considered it to be a reaction with the fire retardant treatment;D
Customer had whole suite replaced at retailers expense :o ;D
Spoke to Paul Pearce a couple of weeks later and he said it was indicator dye's and that Bicarb of soda misted onto fabric would resolve the problem.
Think on your feet ;)
Alan
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Gents
Who made and sold these sofa's? Is it limited to one particular manufacturer or is it all sofa's of this type.
Cheers
Neil
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i suppose thinking about it if it was possible to do a ph test to test the ph of the fabric and clean at that ph. thge problem being by the sound of it that even water could upset the reading and lead to problems. it would be nice to get one of these discarded suites and do experiments on
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i have a similar problem with a white suite that has turned blotchy- only in a few areas- client is a very reasonable - just wants it sorted- explained to them ( b4 seeing this forum ) if it was my chemicals causing the red , why has it not gone blotchy everywhere (ie my fault) - client answered and I agreed - you are the last person to touch it syndrome - also I agreed that i would contact my insurers and I would argue this with them re liability ( client even asked me to c/c his 3 floors of offices whilst there !!!!).
Please advise me what amount of bicarb of soda to use and temp of water and procedure
The suite is 3 yrs old and is a russian import and purchased from Furniture Village group of companies - not sure if you have these up north but i think they have about nine shops down south- they are not your low end market ie dfs and courts (bust)- the store has also said to my client they have not heard of any problems with these suites( funny that )
I just want to clear this situation up and leave a decent and reasonable customer happy and not slagging my firm off at a dinner party, but praising us
I shall post the fabric and as much info asap-to warn others
thankyou in advance for any advice given
regards
David
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This fabric is called Graffio green and G plan used ity on upholstery around 2001.... we have had 3 suites which the manufacturer changed it is a problem with the fabric....go carefully simon