Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: brianbarber on November 19, 2014, 09:00:20 pm
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Hi guys ,
To those that use this hot water system day in day out
Any issues?
Thanks in advance
Mr B
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Is it diesel or gas?
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its diesel
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkjYminKhug&feature=youtu.be
I spoke to this guy today and he has the pure freedom one, he said all these companies use the same heater which is Wobasto and he said they are brilliant, he has never had any problem with it, i know they are expensive, but i think in the long run works out cheaper. :)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkjYminKhug&feature=youtu.be
I spoke to this guy today and he has the pure freedom one, he said all these companies use the same heater which is Wobasto and he said they are brilliant, he has never had any problem with it, i know they are expensive, but i think in the long run works out cheaper. :)
how can they work out cheaper? thats got to be the dumbest comment I have read on here for ages
they are 3k to buy vs a couple of hundred with gas
need a new burner every 1-2 years costing hundreds
are no better than gas
more expensive to run
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkjYminKhug&feature=youtu.be
I spoke to this guy today and he has the pure freedom one, he said all these companies use the same heater which is Wobasto and he said they are brilliant, he has never had any problem with it, i know they are expensive, but i think in the long run works out cheaper. :)
how can they work out cheaper? thats got to be the dumbest comment I have read on here for ages
they are 3k to buy vs a couple of hundred with gas
need a new burner every 1-2 years costing hundreds
are no better than gas
more expensive to run
Why would be the dumbest comment ?
have you had an experience about these burners?
The guys i talk to about webasto haven't had any service done for at 5 years, and still going , one guys i talked to said has never serviced his, and still going.
These burners are leading equipment in the market so if it was rubbish, webasto would have been bankrupt long time ago.
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Bloke that services my van also does HGVs.
He said that a lot of night heaters are Webasto and they are one of the best, it is all about how you use them.
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Bloke that services my van also does HGVs.
He said that a lot of night heaters are Webasto and they are one of the best, it is all about how you use them.
Well said richard, well said, its all about the right knowledge and how you use the knowledge.
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I think the problems arise with the Webasto when it frequently cuts in and out which is what my Pure Freedom one does and I would not personally recommend it. Other suppliers/installers such as Ionics or Grippa may have set their systems up so this does not happen.
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I think the problems arise with the Webasto when it frequently cuts in and out which is what my Pure Freedom one does and I would not personally recommend it. Other suppliers/installers such as Ionics or Grippa may have set their systems up so this does not happen.
I spoke to a specialist today and he said that its suppose to cut out when you stop using the water, and starts again when you use the water, one very important thing he said was that, when you have been using the system for while and you do a lot of stop & starts as we do, every so often let the system run nonstop for about 1 hour, this clean up inside the burner. excellent information because this way, you wouldn't need to service it every 2 years.
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I remember Spruce doing a good post on this a while ago the gist of which I tried to post above (he would explain it far better). All I know is I really do not rate the Isothermal 1 I have from Pure Freedom.
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I remember Spruce doing a good post on this a while ago the gist of which I tried to post above (he would explain it far better). All I know is I really do not rate the Isothermal 1 I have from Pure Freedom.
I am defiantly going for it as i have heard excellent reviews about it.
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I remember Spruce doing a good post on this a while ago the gist of which I tried to post above (he would explain it far better). All I know is I really do not rate the Isothermal 1 I have from Pure Freedom.
I am defiantly going for it as i have heard excellent reviews about it.
You can buy mine if you want, won't be available til March tho.
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I remember Spruce doing a good post on this a while ago the gist of which I tried to post above (he would explain it far better). All I know is I really do not rate the Isothermal 1 I have from Pure Freedom.
I am defiantly going for it as i have heard excellent reviews about it.
You can buy mine if you want, won't be available til March tho.
Why won't it be ready till march?
whats wrong with it?
I wouldn't buy these kind of equipment second hand, i will go straight to the right supplier and buy new :)
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I remember Spruce doing a good post on this a while ago the gist of which I tried to post above (he would explain it far better). All I know is I really do not rate the Isothermal 1 I have from Pure Freedom.
I am defiantly going for it as i have heard excellent reviews about it.
You can buy mine if you want, won't be available til March tho.
Why won't it be ready till march?
whats wrong with it?
I wouldn't buy these kind of equipment second hand, i will go straight to the right supplier and buy new :)
Why would there have to be something wrong with it because it's not available til March? The reason it won't be available til then is I'm getting a new van in March.
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I remember Spruce doing a good post on this a while ago the gist of which I tried to post above (he would explain it far better). All I know is I really do not rate the Isothermal 1 I have from Pure Freedom.
I am defiantly going for it as i have heard excellent reviews about it.
You can buy mine if you want, won't be available til March tho.
Why won't it be ready till march?
whats wrong with it?
I wouldn't buy these kind of equipment second hand, i will go straight to the right supplier and buy new :)
Why would there have to be something wrong with it because it's not available til March? The reason it won't be available til then is I'm getting a new van in March.
Well you can put it in a new van then ;D
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I remember Spruce doing a good post on this a while ago the gist of which I tried to post above (he would explain it far better). All I know is I really do not rate the Isothermal 1 I have from Pure Freedom.
I am defiantly going for it as i have heard excellent reviews about it.
You can buy mine if you want, won't be available til March tho.
Why won't it be ready till march?
whats wrong with it?
I wouldn't buy these kind of equipment second hand, i will go straight to the right supplier and buy new :)
Why would there have to be something wrong with it because it's not available til March? The reason it won't be available til then is I'm getting a new van in March.
Well you can put it in a new van then ;D
Well Iiiiiii'll beeee daaamned! now why didn't I think of that! ;D ;D
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I’m bracing myself for a ‘nuclear’ reaction. ;D
The more I think about these on demand diesel heaters the more I realize that the majority of users are going to find that they are an expensive liability.
Webasto are a well respected manufacturer of these heaters and when used in their correct environment are first class performers. They are designed as block heaters to preheat diesel and petrol engines in freezing climates. The heater switches on and then runs flat out for 30 or 40 minutes heating the engines coolant water up. It can also be wired up to kick in the cars internal blower fan and defrost the car, ready for your journey.
The diesel ones work well when using ordinary road diesel, but even Webasto are advising that red diesel isn’t suitable to use.
When these units are supplied as water heaters for our industry, they are adapted to suit our requirements. A small internal water circuit is created with a small header tank and 1 or 2 heat exchangers to warm the water being pumped to the brush depending on the number of operators.
Initially the single operator systems favoured 5kw Webasto Thermo Top heaters, but these were quickly upgraded to 9kw as they didn’t produce enough heat. Whilst only 2.6kw is required to heat a flow of 1.5LPM by 25 degrees, a 5kw could barely cope when taking into consideration heat loss through the exhaust and other heat transfer inefficiencies. At 2LPM the same unit will only raise the water temperature by 18 degrees, which to all intense and purposes is luke warm.
A Wesbasto 90s is more than capable of heating these afore mentioned water flow rates to a much higher temperature for a single operator. However as soon as another operator is also drawing heat, the 90s will not keep up with both of them. The heater will rely on intermittent use by both users so heat in the internal circuit can be ‘shared’ between the 2.
The other issue the supplies have to decide on is how the hot water is distributed between the 2 heat exchangers. The early Heatwave Thermo2 divided the hot supply line into 2 so the hot water was equally distributed (in parallel). The later model I saw was linked in series. So if the first operator was drawing most of the heat, there is not much left for the second operator. This issue has been raised by several different owners on this forum complaining at a poor heat output from one of the outputs where the other is acceptable.
Another problem that some have had is that of cycling on and off. If an operator is like me and stops to chat, the heater will still operate and it will raise the water temperature in its internal circuit to 80 degrees C. It will then kick into reduced heat mode until the water reaches 84 degrees C. It then switches off. If you switch your tap back on the heater will restart, but if you only use the system for a short burst, the heater will switch off again. This cycle of on and off is heavy on battery power and causes coking up of the burner and glowpin with costly premature failure.
For users like me the manufacturers of these systems need to add another heat exchanger and circulation pump controlled with a 12v digital temperature controller. Once the Webasto reaches 80 degrees C and reduces to half heat, the controller should activate this extra pump and bled the hot water from the heater into the WFP tank. As the temperature drops to 64 Degrees C the controller should deactivate the pump. This will allow heat to slowly build to 80 degrees C when the pump is again activated. This will keep the heater running on idle mode.
When I see how easy it was to install an 8 LPM Meny gas heater, even with fitting a Broan vent through the roof, and how effortlessly it runs, I can’t understand why these diesel heaters are still being bought.
This is my opinion. ;D
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I have to agree with all that you have said Spruce. I'm surprised that there is very little happening in the way of development from suppliers to make an LPG unit rather than diesel units.
I've a friend who got a so called pro webasto system from a reputable supplier. He didn't use the hot through the summer due to the cost and when he got back to the winter the burners coked up in a few weeks due to the reasons you have stated. Some suppliers may use different internal plumbing to avoid the coke up issue.
I have 2 gas boilers running all year round, and to replace the whole units would cost less than replacing the burners on a webasto. The running cost is also a lot less with gas.
However carrying gas does limit your choice of insurance companies and maybe that's why suppliers push them on the market. I also wonder if a supplier started making branded LPG boilers, how much would they charge. On ebay at the moment you can get them for around £100 each. I'd be interested to see how Grippa have implemented the internal plumbing on the diesel heaters though.
Simon.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkjYminKhug&feature=youtu.be
I spoke to this guy today and he has the pure freedom one, he said all these companies use the same heater which is Wobasto and he said they are brilliant, he has never had any problem with it, i know they are expensive, but i think in the long run works out cheaper. :)
how can they work out cheaper? thats got to be the dumbest comment I have read on here for ages
they are 3k to buy vs a couple of hundred with gas
need a new burner every 1-2 years costing hundreds
are no better than gas
more expensive to run
Why would be the dumbest comment ?
have you had an experience about these burners?
The guys i talk to about webasto haven't had any service done for at 5 years, and still going , one guys i talked to said has never serviced his, and still going.
These burners are leading equipment in the market so if it was rubbish, webasto would have been bankrupt long time ago.
I'm interested to know what your calculations were in the long run.
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I have to agree with all that you have said Spruce. I'm surprised that there is very little happening in the way of development from suppliers to make an LPG unit rather than diesel units.
I've a friend who got a so called pro webasto system from a reputable supplier. He didn't use the hot through the summer due to the cost and when he got back to the winter the burners coked up in a few weeks due to the reasons you have stated. Some suppliers may use different internal plumbing to avoid the coke up issue.
I have 2 gas boilers running all year round, and to replace the whole units would cost less than replacing the burners on a webasto. The running cost is also a lot less with gas.
However carrying gas does limit your choice of insurance companies and maybe that's why suppliers push them on the market. I also wonder if a supplier started making branded LPG boilers, how much would they charge. On ebay at the moment you can get them for around £100 each. I'd be interested to see how Grippa have implemented the internal plumbing on the diesel heaters though.
Simon.
.......... and if you get an under body lpg vapour tank and filler fitted (or fitted yourself) then gas is much cheaper on lpg forecourts.
The Meny is a 16kw heater, so plenty of heat in reserve.
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its a shame nobody makes a gas water heater that is fitted with the exhaust and air intake designed to go through the van floor like the webastos do ......propex make a gas air heater that is fitted this way so it must be possible .
i would definitely buy one.
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Grippa have just taken all the internals from a varitech or similar and wedged it all in behind a blanking plate the parts they use are exactly the same as mine,I've seen one up close
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I'm sure they are all basically exactly the same. 9kw Webasto heater, plastic wyedale header tank, 1 or 2 water to water heat exchangers each with a temperature regulator valve.
The only differences will probably be in digital controllers and some gauges and cabinet. The Ionics one looks like of part of space technology whilst the Heatwave is at the opposite end of the spectrum.
The Ionics unit looks to have a bleed off system employed to reduce on/off cycling. Dave Willis says that the PureFreedom unit has the same, but users are complaining that the first failures appear just after the warranty expires.
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apparently the gas heater used by concept2o is just a cointra heater in a fancy case
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I'm going to jump in with both feet.
Does anyone have experience on how an Ionics Diesel heater works. This is with reference to bleeding excess heat generated in the heating water circuit and not used for cleaning when switching the water off.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1417083050_ionics2a.jpg)
This Ionics unit appears to be a single operator unit as it only has one heat exchanger. It has 2 pumps in series; the right one joining to the second pump. In the top right hand side is a brass t piece with what appears to be a pressure relief valve. It looks similar to a pressure relief valve used in the food industry to release excess hot water/steam. It has a hose leaving from it to the top of the tank - a heat bleed off?
Further to the right is another brass T which looks to have a temperature probe fixed in it.
My guess is that the first pump is your everyday working pump that delivers water to the brush through the second pump and heat exchanger. In my experience we need no more that 60 psi to deliver all the water we need to the brush head. If that temperature probe is connected to a temperature controller it would be easy to activate that second pump. If that pressure relief valve was set at say 70 psi and the second pump to cut off at 100 psi, then that second pump would blow off the relief valve to push all that extra excess heat back into the tank.
But I could be wrong. Help needed.
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That Ionics set-up looks so complicated I would worry about potential problems/faults. Hot water has advantages but cold makes for a much simpler life.
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I'm going to jump in with both feet.
Does anyone have experience on how an Ionics Diesel heater works. This is with reference to bleeding excess heat generated in the heating water circuit and not used for cleaning when switching the water off.
(http://www.cleanitup.co.uk/smf/1417083050_ionics2a.jpg)
This Ionics unit appears to be a single operator unit as it only has one heat exchanger. It has 2 pumps in series; the right one joining to the second pump. In the top right hand side is a brass t piece with what appears to be a pressure relief valve. It looks similar to a pressure relief valve used in the food industry to release excess hot water/steam. It has a hose leaving from it to the top of the tank - a heat bleed off?
Further to the right is another brass T which looks to have a temperature probe fixed in it.
My guess is that the first pump is your everyday working pump that delivers water to the brush through the second pump and heat exchanger. In my experience we need no more that 60 psi to deliver all the water we need to the brush head. If that temperature probe is connected to a temperature controller it would be easy to activate that second pump. If that pressure relief valve was set at say 70 psi and the second pump to cut off at 100 psi, then that second pump would blow off the relief valve to push all that extra excess heat back into the tank.
But I could be wrong. Help needed.
You know its strange that no one from Ionic or any other major company who sells this has come here to explain this. ???
But i was talking to another guy today which has similar set up to this one and he explained that this type of system is designed so you can heat the water in the tank as you driving around and once the water in the tank has reached a certain temperature i.e.: 60 degrees then the boiler will stops, and hence you will have hot water in the tank for the rest of the day.
This is a good idea as you can switch off the boiler once the water reached that temperature and hence saving lots money on the Diesel for boiler.
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you people a brainless or what lpg is cheap as chips and works great why pay thousands daaaaaaa
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just a thought , has anyone used a gas heater to heat the water in there static tank ?
i don't like the idea of having the gas and boiler in the van , how long would one of these boilers take to heat a 1000 litres upto around 30C ?
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just a thought , has anyone used a gas heater to heat the water in there static tank ?
i don't like the idea of having the gas and boiler in the van , how long would one of these boilers take to heat a 1000 litres upto around 30C ?
Difficult question to answer.
I can't remember what the specs say on these, but an 8LPM unit will easily raise the water temperature from say 5 degrees in your tank to 30 degrees C, a rise of 25 degrees.
If you have an 8lpm pump then theoretically it will take 125 minutes. But heat will be lost and you will also have hotter water at the top of the tank than at the bottom where you draw from.
If you use 500 litres per day, then you are in effect heating another 400 - 500 litres for nothing.
This is why heating the water you will use at that moment (on demand) is the most economical way.
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just a thought , has anyone used a gas heater to heat the water in there static tank ?
i don't like the idea of having the gas and boiler in the van , how long would one of these boilers take to heat a 1000 litres upto around 30C ?
Difficult question to answer.
I can't remember what the specs say on these, but an 8LPM unit will easily raise the water temperature from say 5 degrees in your tank to 30 degrees C, a rise of 25 degrees.
If you have an 8lpm pump then theoretically it will take 125 minutes. But heat will be lost and you will also have hotter water at the top of the tank than at the bottom where you draw from.
If you use 500 litres per day, then you are in effect heating another 400 - 500 litres for nothing.
This is why heating the water you will use at that moment (on demand) is the most economical way.
Thats interesting spruce, how about if you insulate your tank ?
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my ibc is in an insulated shed , i have tried the 2kw element from ebay for a tenner and although it keeps the shed warm from the radiated heat the water doesn't get quite warm enough .
I have thought about knocking up my own diesel system (you can get the 5kw heaters from ebay refurbished for £399) so could be done for around 800 but been a bit put off by the stories on here .
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my ibc is in an insulated shed , i have tried the 2kw element from ebay for a tenner and although it keeps the shed warm from the radiated heat the water doesn't get quite warm enough .
I have thought about knocking up my own diesel system (you can get the 5kw heaters from ebay refurbished for £399) so could be done for around 800 but been a bit put off by the stories on here .
From my own experience a 5kw diesel heater doesn't equate to 5kw at the water exit point of the burner. It will never run 100% efficiently, as a % of the heat generated will be lost through the exhaust. Whilst I haven't seen any figures from the suppliers/manufacturers, my guess is that's its efficiency is around 50 to 60% at the most. So if you do a search for the heat transfer formula on the internet, you will probably have to double those time figures.
The manufacturers claim that the 8lpm Meny gas heater runs at an efficiency of around 80%. It is has 3 times the heat output at 16kw.
If you are going to use something like this to circulate the water in your IBC tank then you will need to ensure that the heater remains frost free. As the original design of this heater was as a engine preheater, it was protected from frost by the engine's antifreeze.
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The idea of the diesel one was to be fitted to the van and just roughly copy the way the ionics version works .......just don't like the idea of having gas in the back of the van .
I also don't like the idea of having a flu through the roof of van , if they made one that flued through the floor i would be more interested .
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How about this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgmKVt4HgM0g
Looks interesting.
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How about this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgmKVt4HgM0g
Looks interesting.
The Kampa is a 5kw unit and will be good enough to heat the water into a backpack like David Hilton has demonsrtrated.
A few people bought them but I don't know how they performed in everyday window cleaning. We demand pressures in the hose of up to 100 psi. Will that Kampa be robust enough to endure those pressures in its heat exchanger?
Again it is exhausted out of the side of the unit, so van doors will have to be left open.
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How about this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgmKVt4HgM0g
Looks interesting.
The Kampa is a 5kw unit and will be good enough to heat the water into a backpack like David Hilton has demonsrtrated.
A few people bought them but I don't know how they performed in everyday window cleaning. We demand pressures in the hose of up to 100 psi. Will that Kampa be robust enough to endure those pressures in its heat exchanger?
Again it is exhausted out of the side of the unit, so van doors will have to be left open.
Thanks for the input Spruce :)