Clean It Up
UK Floor Cleaning Forum => Carpet Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: john martin on November 09, 2014, 12:21:43 pm
-
Has anyone made a DIY cleaning product thats worked well for them ..
It would only make sense if you buy the main ingredients in bulk .
Im thinking of getting 50kg of sodium carbonate from Mistral as the starting ingredient , then perhaps 10kg of percarbonate to add as desired . And a dash of Alcohol Ethoxylate when its mixed as prespray .
I also have some fels neptha bars i could grate and add to the powder mix . As i dont think il use them as is .
Sodium carbonate is about ph 12 ... i have some citric acid powder i could use to lower the PH a tad when necessary and it would help prevent any powder precipitation .
Any other suggestions ?
-
John
I hear on the grape vine Lever are crapping themselves !!
-
Chemical costs are such a small part of the actual cleaning process, that unless you weren't happy with any of the major manufacturers products, is it actually worth making your own?
-
Chemical costs are such a small part of the actual cleaning process, that unless you weren't happy with any of the major manufacturers products, is it actually worth making your own?
Im really not sure , thats why im thinking there is only one way to find out .
I will keep the branded stuff for high end places but sometimes i like to lay it down thick and heavy and it would be good to think im not wasting it on some places .
And the purity would be high , as in if im reading it right most of these products contain 30% of this 10% of that ... never adds up to 100 anyway so is there bulking agents involved in the branded products .
So high purity and bulk buying may = a low cost product that cleans good .
-
John
I hear on the grape vine Lever are crapping themselves !!
and well they should ;D
Let the mixing begin
(http://i59.tinypic.com/4scw14.jpg)
-
;D
-
That was in a nice way. Good luck.
-
;D ;D ;DNICE ONE JOHN......John, any chance i can give you a bell........
-
Go for it John! ;)
Sod carbonate is the base product of most powdered chemicals, what other ingredients have you got there??
-
Go for it John! ;)
Sod carbonate is the base product of most powdered chemicals, what other ingredients have you got there??
You are looking at 2 x 25kg of sodium carbonate
10kg of Sodium tripolyphosphate
The two 5kg plastic containers are sodium percarbonate
There is 5kg of Sodium xylene sulfonate
250ml of concentrated spearmint fragrance
some fels naptha bars to grate
not in shot ...bags of citric acid
I will try a few different mixes ... if i like some mix then i will buy ingredients in larger bulk to reduce price significantly .
Brendan , you could get me at j-martin@live.com ?
-
remember to deduct all that faffing about to your hourly rate John. ;D
Would be interesting to know how much you saved though. Even better if your able to make some handy stain removers i,e gels, dye removers etc :P
-
Hi John
Are the 5ltr containers Sodium Percarbonate? I thought it could only be bought in powder form?
-
Kev it would be powder after 20 minutes it starts to break down after 4-5 hours useless really
-
How will you know what percentage of each to use? Is it not like making a cake, you might have all the ingredients but without the cooking instructions you won't get the required results. I think holding the chemicals in a uniformed solution will be a problem, if each have a different solubility you might get a lot of separation or settlement. It's an interesting experiment but is it really practical.
Whose carpets will you test each batch on?
-
Wasn't there some guy doing this a few years ago and caused a small explosion? He lost part of a hand and is now partially sighted. Obviously had no insurance for this.
-
Yes , the percarbonate is in powder form in the plastic containers , extra protection from moisture i suppose .
These ingredients are the very common ones used in most of the carpet powders including all of the non detergent powders .
Mike , i dont think mixing ratios are critical as in your baking a cake analogy ... more like making a stew ... even if there is more of one ingredient than another it will still taste good . And i am confident they remain in solution once dissolved .
I will make slight mistakes ... like the xylene sulphonate is in tiny pellet form , so i will have to crush it to a powder with a morter and pestle so it dissolves quicker , but thats of little hassle.
Jeeze im not going to blow myself up with this lot ;D although if anyone sees me through the window weighing bags of powder they might suspect dissident republican activity or drugs cutting .
Price wise , i can make about 75kg powder with this lot ... so it works out at about the equivalent £23 incl vat and shipping for 10kg of the powder mixed
I will probably try my powder out on customers houses :)
-
Sounds a bit iffy to me John. You have obviously done your research but a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Personally I would put my prices up 2 percent and just stick to top brands from suppliers who rely on sales of prespray to stay in business.
-
Think I will stick with Chemspec, as someone has already said chems are such a low outlay why wouldyou bother trying to mix your own ? Not for me anyway
Stuart
-
Ah ok, thanks John. It's just that I've never seen it in 5ltr containers before - they are usually for liquids! (and so looks a bit weird). Normally they are always in tubs or bags.
-
Think I will stick with Chemspec, as someone has already said chems are such a low outlay why wouldyou bother trying to mix your own ? Not for me anyway
Stuart
+1
David
-
Seems to me a distraction from doing the important things in your business ie marketing. Being a supplier I would say that. But the time and effort for the saving you'd make seems pointless.
-
Seems to me a distraction from doing the important things in your business ie marketing. Being a supplier I would say that. But the time and effort for the saving you'd make seems pointless.
I do take the ' is it worth it ' point but its something i want to explore for myself .
I can afford the branded powders and liquids ( although i manage to go through the at an alarming rate )
There are some complex branded formulations that i have a lot of respect for , but there are one to three ingredient products out there also using some of the ingredients i have above selling for up to £70 for 10kg :o
and heres the thing with most of them ... add up the % of usefull cleaning ingredients in them ... it usually amounts to 50% of total volume ... what is the other 50% ..
this stuff ...
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-supplier-Sodium-Sulphate-Anhydrous-99_1964178697.html?s=p
so my cleaning powder at £23 for 10kg is actually about £11 for 10kg .
The time and effort is pretty minimal ... so far i ordered on line and opened the box .
next i spent a few mins mixing the powder ... and im ready to go
-
And with this new chemical you have now made up, you of course will have an MSDS sheet to go with it?
-
And with this new chemical you have now made up, you of course will have an MSDS sheet to go with it?
That would be the responsibility of my supplier
-
If you blend chemicals yourself then you are responsible for producing a safety data sheet. Not an easy excercise, then if you are just using it yourself you may get away with it. However by law you are supposed to carry one on the vehicle and also some commercial customers like to inspect the products you are using.
-
Yes , for my own use only . I bought six cleaning products from a supplier .
If i mix them its the same as someone buying for example a 'microsplitter' and adding energizer . That is then a completely different product .
-
For personal interest I can see why you are doing this, but if the goal is to save money then I think you are going in the completely wrong direction, rather than make your own, look how to eliminate the need for them in the first place.
Are you making pre-sprays or rinse agents?
Looking at the cleaning pie......if you get rid of the chemical you increase dwell time, agitation or heat, I know this is taking the topic in the wrong direction and should have its own thread but I use on 95% of jobs pureclean and a reverse osmosis water rinse.
On some jobs I just rinse with the water and no prespray. ( just using a trigger spray to spot as I go and my boot for aggatation)
I did a job on Friday where I just rinsed the carpet with no regard for removing the stains or spots then when I finished it's was 85%ish clean then I just spotted the other 15% and did a second rinse...... I think I used 500ml of actual pure-clean.
This was using very hot water at a high flow rate
-
Hope you are enjoying yourself John looks like good fun wont be long until you are the biggest supplier of machines and chemicals in Europe ;D
-
Like to hear how you get on. Maybe you could try the same with spotters.
-
Yes , i will be making a general liquid a bit like prespray gold and perhaps something a bit more solventy for spots . The bought liquids are 60-80% water you know :)
Mike , your choice of inefficient and overpriced cleaning powder is compensated ,like u say , by your purified water , truckmount flow , consistant heat and moonwalking the stains . It is easier for me to increase my chemical segment of the pie and with my homemade powder i wont feel screwed laying it down triple strength to get the wow factor .
-
John why do you think pure clean is inefficient & over priced? What's the ingredients, is it full of fillers? How much of it did you try to formulate your opinion of it?
Can you buy it as a base ingredient?
I also bonnet with it and find it gives the same results as all the other bonnet chemicals at a much lower price.
-
Think I will stick with Chemspec, as someone has already said chems are such a low outlay why wouldyou bother trying to mix your own ? Not for me anyway
Stuart
Plus it could be very dangerous, may be illegal without licencing and people who mix chemicals at home could always end up with an armed response unit surrounding the house!
-
John why do you think pure clean is inefficient & over priced? What's the ingredients, is it full of fillers? How much of it did you try to formulate your opinion of it?
Can you buy it as a base ingredient?
I also bonnet with it and find it gives the same results as all the other bonnet chemicals at a much lower price.
Pure clean is about 35% phosphate similar to the sodium tripolyphosphate i got above . They also include just 1% of a fluorinated wetting agent which would serve the same purpose and be quite similar in use to the MES in my ingredients above .
The rest is likely the bulking agent as it seems the norm in powder detergents to bulk up at about 40 to 60% .
The USP with these eco type products seems to be what it does not include more that what it does .
The more complex powders might have five or six ingredients each serving there own purpose .
but if pureclean works for you , then it works . I would think the more complex powders give u more for the money .
But at least it has a bit of wetting agent . The ' microsplitter ' marketed powder is just the phosphate with nothing ... well the bulking agent perhaps .
Its not dangerous ! ;D
-
John why do you think pure clean is inefficient & over priced? What's the ingredients, is it full of fillers? How much of it did you try to formulate your opinion of it?
Can you buy it as a base ingredient?
I also bonnet with it and find it gives the same results as all the other bonnet chemicals at a much lower price.
Pure clean is about 35% phosphate similar to the sodium tripolyphosphate is got above . They also include just 1% of a fluorinated wetting agent which would serve the same purpose and be quite similar in use to the MES in my ingredients above .
The rest is likely the bulking agent as it seems the norm in powder detergents to bulk up at about 40 to 60% .
The USP with these eco type products seems to be what it does not include more that what it does .
The more complex powders might have five or six ingredients each serving there own purpose .
but if pureclean works for you , then it works . I would think the more complex powders give u more for the money .
But at least it has a bit of wetting agent . The ' microsplitter ' marketed powder is just the phosphate with nothing ... well the bulking agent perhaps .
Its not dangerous ! ;D
All the best to you John, not my way but credit to you for trying, if what you are saying about the bulking that goes into powdered cleaning agents is true then you should have nothing to loose. Keep us updated with your progress
David
-
John
I use pure clean on the rare occasion , its good for ph sensitive upholstery, but as far as I am aware it aint an eco product as its full of phosphates and what is eco friendly about them ?
Stuart
-
John
I use pure clean on the rare occasion , its good for ph sensitive upholstery, but as far as I am aware it aint an eco product as its full of phosphates and what is eco friendly about them ?
Stuart
True , i guess i tend to associate these ' very little to them ' products with the ECO usp .
So pure clean is selling it self on ' not containing soap ' ... little or nothing does these days .
' not containing enzymes ' ... is that a good thing ?
and ' not containing fragrance ' ... who cares or whats wrong with fragrance .
Any way what it should say it ' contains dam all ' apart from a bit of phosphate .
So why is selling almost twice the price of Ultimate Master that has about 7 ingredients including phosphate .
And prochems ' natural range ' powder ... whats its selling point
' does not contain phosphate !!! '
so i has a bit of sodium carbonate instead .
its just rehashing the same basic ingredients and coming up with new ways to sell them to us .
I made 10kg of my powder , get a chance to use it tomorrow . I kept the grated fels separate in a container , that would only be added if conditions suited .
I am infusing the fragrance by soaking a piece of brown paper in the oil and putting it in an airtight container with some of the powder , i will then add the powder to the rest . Its a questionable decision to make a room smell like wriggles spearmint , but it might be mild in powder .
-
So i used the powder ... works fine . I mostly used it as an intank extraction rince today , i have nowhere with medium soiling to prespray /aggitate with it . It dissolved fully and showed no residue when dry , and had no foaming . I rinced / extracted a sofa fine . I was doing some hotel bedrooms most of the day and intank is the quickest method i found , it did good there . Job in the evening i had to declare chemical warfare , ultrapac etc .
Its pretty basic as is , i may make some up dissolved and add some Alcohol ethoxylate and perhaps 2-Butoxyethanol as both a prespray and to boost as an extraction rince .
-
Hey John,Mistral sell carpet cleaning powders,have you had a look at the ingredients in them?
-
Hey John,Mistral sell carpet cleaning powders,have you had a look at the ingredients in them?
You mean they sell pre made powder after me grinding my pellets :-X
http://mistralie.co.uk/collections/home-and-janitorial/products/carpet-cleaner-powder-lfs-powder
well i did spot it but i figured i'd try and make something without the sodium sulphate and try a few mixes .
I messaged them to see whats in it but they gave a half ass answer without listing the specifics . Il see if i can get anymore detail but it may be very good value as is .
Im sure its as good as most out there .
-
Sound John,whats your mixture like in hot water,does it stick together are dissolve completely.what you save on a average 5 kg of powder from a supplier to John Martins carpet cleaning cocktail :o
-
Sound John,whats your mixture like in hot water,does it stick together are dissolve completely.what you save on a average 5 kg of powder from a supplier to John Martins carpet cleaning cocktail :o
Im not sure if i dissolved it in really hot water , in luke warm to hot its quick . How much saving is hard to compare , its a fraction of the microsplitter type products which it is similar to at this stage , its still not as complex as some of the detergent powders though .
-
sorry if this thread is driving anyone to despair now :D
Regarding Mistrals mixed carpet powder mentioned on the last page .
Barry kelly of Mistral was replying to my querys at 11 last night , he says is a mix of phosphate , sodium carbonate , sodium metasilate , and a powder surfactant blend they buy in ( which is typically alcohol excolated and a few others , which are processed into the powder ) and some fragrance . he said there is sodium sulphate but at about only 5% .
He explained that the main function of the sulphate bulking is give a free flowing uniform powder , so if the powder mix is the very fine soda ash and phosphate it would be very dence and flow poorly , the sulphate decreases the density . It more about appearance , density , flow etc .
however it is still dilution if its use in large % , its serves no cleaning function .
So Mistrals powder looks like very good value coming at about 2.20 per kilo incl vat/post .
It would be at least twice that and more from a carpet supplier so you are effectively cutting out one of the middle men ( sorry middle men ) . I think i will give it a go at some stage .
-
why is this thread making me think of breaking bad ?
-
sorry if this thread is driving anyone to despair now :D
Regarding Mistrals mixed carpet powder mentioned on the last page .
Barry kelly of Mistral was replying to my querys at 11 last night , he says is a mix of phosphate , sodium carbonate , sodium metasilate , and a powder surfactant blend they buy in ( which is typically alcohol excolated and a few others , which are processed into the powder ) and some fragrance . he said there is sodium sulphate but at about only 5% .
He explained that the main function of the sulphate bulking is give a free flowing uniform powder , so if the powder mix is the very fine soda ash and phosphate it would be very dence and flow poorly , the sulphate decreases the density . It more about appearance , density , flow etc .
however it is still dilution if its use in large % , its serves no cleaning function .
So Mistrals powder looks like very good value coming at about 2.20 per kilo incl vat/post .
It would be at least twice that and more from a carpet supplier so you are effectively cutting out one of the middle men ( sorry middle men ) . I think i will give it a go at some stage .
It dilutes at: For every litre of water add 10–20g of powder and mix. (10g per lt)
Formula 90: Portable 28/56g to 20L water. (1.4g per lt)
So at their weakest dilution you would use more than 5 times as much mistral powder compared to F90.
...... Not as cheap as it first appears.
But the serious question is WHY???
What does Chemspec add that makes it 5 times more effective? if like you say the mistral powder has very little fillers
-
Thats because there is no correct or standard dilution ratio .
Mistral could have picked what chemspec picked or vice versa .
-
::)roll ::)roll
Chemspec don't know the correct dilution of their chemicals??
More likely they use better base ingredient which are more effective,
Bit like coffee , their are 100s of versions of coffee all 100% arabica beans all of them different strengths & quality.
-
Look at the sodium carbonate bag in my pic , over 99% pure , how pure do u want :P
The recommended dilution is an average figure not a set in stone gospel must do .
Chemspec are a mainstream carpet powder supplier , i would say the figure they pick is based on what is competitive in the market , if they sounded like they needed to more concentrated than prochem for example then u would think u are getting better value there and switch .
For Mistral carpet powder is is small portion of their sales products and who knows who they consulted or came up with the chosen printed ratios .
If you come across something dirty i bet u whack in a bit more product , so there gos the recommended figure , its a meaningless average .
-
The problem is everything you say is guesswork based on your opinion & limited knowledge but you state it as fact. you call chemicals of which you have no real experience ineffective & expensive but this is based not on years of using it but looking at an ingredient list.
now you are saying reputable companies just give dilution rates based on market trends not on the recommendation of their qualified chemist. ( of which they will have many of)
Just reading instructions & MSDS SHEETS does not qualify as knowledge of a particular chemical.
It might be better if you stick to giving info on vac motors where you can read the exact specification on the manufactures website and stop guessing what companies put into their solutions.
-
The problem is everything you say is guesswork based on your opinion & limited knowledge but you state it as fact. you call chemicals of which you have no real experience ineffective & expensive but this is based not on years of using it but looking at an ingredient list.
now you are saying reputable companies just give dilution rates based on market trends not on the recommendation of their qualified chemist. ( of which they will have many of)
Just reading instructions & MSDS SHEETS does not qualify as knowledge of a particular chemical.
It might be better if you stick to giving info on vac motors where you can read the exact specification on the manufactures website and stop guessing what companies put into their solutions.
Was my guesswork homebrew with no proper dilution rates bringing me the WoW factor today ... ;D
Hell Yeah !
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2ngbz2g.jpg)
-
But with that fabric, hot water on its with no chemical you would get the same result, or at least very similar.
-
Hi Guys
I have thought about formulating my own powder but in the end I have settled for having two stock powders and adjusting them as necessary with enzymes etc.
As some of you know I do not believe in using enzymes where they are not beneficial and potentially harmful.
You have to weigh up whether all the effort is worth it to save you a fiver a week.
Cheers
Doug
-
Hi Guys
I have thought about formulating my own powder but in the end I have settled for having two stock powders and adjusting them as necessary with enzymes etc.
As some of you know I do not believe in using enzymes where they are not beneficial and potentially harmful.
You have to weigh up whether all the effort is worth it to save you a fiver a week.
Cheers
Doug
Doug , do u know of any online source to buy an enzyme mix ?
-
Hi John
Not anymore.
There are a few companies Novo Nordisk was one I dealt with some years ago.
Cheers
Doug
-
Hi John
Not anymore.
There are a few companies Novo Nordisk was one I dealt with some years ago.
Cheers
Doug
Digestive supplements ?
Papain is cheap , also found a variety mix .
Not sure if there is enough to be of good value .
Could pop a couple of pills in when cleaning something greasy ?
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Bromelain-and-Papain-100mg-30-tablets-anti-inflammatory-digestive-enzymes-/221392576575?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Vitamins_Supplements&hash=item338c06a03f
http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Papain-Amylase-Lipase-Protease-Pepsin-Pancreatin-x180-/281086261851?pt=UK_Health_Beauty_Vitamins_Supplements&hash=item41720bfa5b
-
you can send me a sample and i'll be happy to trial some of your home brew John ;D
-
you can send me a sample and i'll be happy to trial some of your home brew John ;D
Thanks , I think it still needs a bit of tweeking , at the moment its only better than Pureclean and SPM and a few others .
-
Reviving an old thread - John are you still mixing your own?
-
Reviving and old thread - John are you still mixing your own?
I think Doug said it best a few posts back ..' you have to weigh up is it worth the effort '
Its not worth the effort making an ultimate master or f90 type powder , it might be worth it if u want a high PH powder for occasional use or something ,
I would make a citrus prespray as i was that a lot ... but mistral dont stock Limonene and i cant get bulk to where i am without paying the same again in shipping ,
so no , the only things i get regular from mistral are lavender deodouriser , acetone and a few bits