Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: slap bash on October 31, 2014, 12:42:56 pm
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Hi guy just bought a new 11o amp hour leisure battery 6 weeks old and its volts drop when under load when its fully charged.( from 12 volt to 6.4) The battery supplier says we need to state when buying its for window cleaning. What difference does the use make if its a motor home a caravan or should it last few days. Am I right or wrong.Thanks in advance. I trust you guys as one knowing your oats. ??? ??? ??? This is the offending battery http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171073055139?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
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Should be fine pal have the battery drop tested at local car garage
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Sorry if this sounds a bit blunt! Its a cheap and nasty battery! You get what you pay for.
Sorry again. I do know what I am talking about by the way.
Invest in a top quality battery.
Its like looking at those top of the range duracell batteries in the shops and then buying the pound shop specials and expecting them to do the same job.
Hope this helps
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Hi guy just bought a new 11o amp hour leisure battery 6 weeks old and its volts drop when under load when its fully charged.( from 12 volt to 6.4) The battery supplier says we need to state when buying its for window cleaning. What difference does the use make if its a motor home a caravan or should it last few days. Am I right or wrong.Thanks in advance. I trust you guys as one knowing your oats. ??? ??? ??? This is the offending battery http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/171073055139?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
It would appear that since Numax started the leisure battery's warranty being nul and void if used in the window cleaning industry, other manufacturers have followed suit.
I have no idea why we are singled out as users.
As Diamond has noted, a good supplier should be able to test the performance of a fully charged battery under a known load and determine if the battery isn't performing to standard.
As I've mentioned in another thread, we have had good service from Numax leisure batteries as have also had good service from Orange batteries (in name and colour) sold from Roper's caravan world.
Although we have split charge relays on both my son and my vans, we rarely let the battery charge drop below 75% which means they are supplementary charged every second night depending on the day's usage.
We have found that our pumps draw about 4.5 amps for every pumping hour, so we would typically use about 15 amps each a day doing residential. If my son is working with me using his back pack the amps are around 6 amps as he uses the pump to trickle fill his 25 liter plastic container. This is about the same amount of current used by an average motorhome user per day (estimated at around 33 amps), but my guess that our daily use of the battery will highlight any weakness very quickly.
Fully charge your battery, switch on the pump with the brush connected and watch what happens to the magic eye. If it goes from green to black quickly then the battery is suspect. It either means that the battery is flat and that the battery charger is faulty, or the battery hasn't got any capacity left and needs replacing.
Theoretically the 110 amp leisure battery should last us 3 days, but it isn't good to let the battery discharge to that amount.
KentKleen swears by Banner batteries. He uses car batteries and they have worked well for him and his team. We have found that leisure batteries only accept a trickle charge where car (starter) batteries will recharge more quickly. I'm tempted to try a Banner battery next time, but will probably end up replacing my leisure battery with another Numax when the time comes.
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Sorry if this sounds a bit blunt! Its a cheap and nasty battery! You get what you pay for.
Sorry again. I do know what I am talking about by the way.
Invest in a top quality battery.
Its like looking at those top of the range duracell batteries in the shops and then buying the pound shop specials and expecting them to do the same job.
Hope this helps
Hello Dave,
How are you?
And Slap bash, Dave is an ex auto electrician so his experience as an auto electrician and window cleaner has to be considered seriously - I rate it personally.
He may have been blunt, but he did apologise. ;D
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Has slap deleted a post here ?
Darran
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Has slap deleted a post here ?
Darran
Yes.
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Hi Spruce, Im fine thank you, hope you are all keeping well.
I am currently trying out a Yuasa commercial deep cycle battery (pricey) and I must say I am amazed at how hard you can work these batteries with no problems whatsoever.
We have 2 vans running seperate batteries (banner 85ah normal car) wired together in parallel. NO split charge relay. Never have to take one out to re-charge. In fact I dont own a battery charger.
2 vans running 'top' quality commercial batteries powering both van and system. No problems either.
One of the vans with the parallel batteries only travels around 5 miles per day and is never left running on the job. It can clean in stints of 3 to 4 hours at a time without moving. Its only prolonged charge is during fill up when it is left running and this equates to around 30 mins of running time. (van start up from last job to fill up point to returning to his home.)
Hope this helps someone out.
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What I did notice on the ebay advert slapdash put up was the 'leisure' battery was displaying its 'greater cranking' capacity. Strange for a 'leisure' battery. IMO.
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http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/helpandadvice/technicalhelp/power/a-guide-to-leisure-batteries/
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http://www.hardwarexpress.co.uk/leisure-battery-12v-100ah-deep-cycle-batteries-2351-p.asp?gclid=CI7JjpH318ECFQQFwwod1z8ALw
Any good? Seemed a little cheap...
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Our lads use a variety of batteries ranging from 'top of the range' leisure to second hand lorry/car batteries.
Not a lot of difference in the overall costs - 'good' batteries are expensive, of course but 2nd hand are dirt cheap so get used till knackered then replaced. One is running an ex-mobility scooter battery (discarded as no longer up to the job) - he's used it daily for nearly two years now, never any problems ;D
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What I did notice on the ebay advert slapdash put up was the 'leisure' battery was displaying its 'greater cranking' capacity. Strange for a 'leisure' battery. IMO.
I picked on that one as well, but did a check and Numax and others also quote a CCA as well. I can only imagine that it is because that will also be used as caravan motor movers which will draw an intermittent high current when positioning a van.
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http://www.hardwarexpress.co.uk/leisure-battery-12v-100ah-deep-cycle-batteries-2351-p.asp?gclid=CI7JjpH318ECFQQFwwod1z8ALw
Any good? Seemed a little cheap...
This is the one I have and I really can't fault it.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/190828055303?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ff19=0
I paid £85.00 for it 3 years ago from our local motor factors in Marske who ordered it in and its still going strong - good grief; I purchased it on the 14th January 2011 so it's going to be 4 years old in 3 months.
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http://www.hardwarexpress.co.uk/leisure-battery-12v-100ah-deep-cycle-batteries-2351-p.asp?gclid=CI7JjpH318ECFQQFwwod1z8ALw
Any good? Seemed a little cheap...
This is the one I have and I really can't fault it.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/190828055303?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ff19=0
I paid £85.00 for it 3 years ago from our local motor factors in Marske who ordered it in and its still going strong - good grief; I purchased it on the 14th January 2011 so it's going to be 4 years old in 3 months.
Cheers spruce
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David Kent the reason the leisure battery had cranks because its a marine battery which will crank and well as power lights and navigate instruments in boating. The reason I chose to but this battery is its overall weight which is a sign of plenty of lead which invariably is a good quality battery. I did not think this battery was so cheap £78.
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I am so sorry slap dash! I will buy my next battery using your formula, Thank You.
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My system runs from the second battery on my Toyota Hiace - they are eight years old now most of my round is within two miles and I've worked like this for the last three years I reckon. Never charged either battery, not had a problem yet although I'm expecting it. :o
In the past I must have gone through £500 worth of batteries when charged every night. Never managed to claim on the warranties either.
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Interesting.
Spruce is right a number of battery manufactures ate voiding the warranty if the leisure battery is used for WFP. While the battery is designed for a long continuous draw and repeated discharge and recharge cycles which make it ideal for WFP. Most Motor home batteries would not see the kind of use associated with WFP.
As a general rule discharging a battery below 50% of its capacity will damage the cells and reduce the ability for the cell to hold a charge.
Another unknown here is the charge state of the battery when you received it. A battery can lose as much as 4% of its capacity a week while disconnected. So your 110 AH is losing almost 5 amps a week just sitting on a shelf.
Depending on how efficient and flow rates It is likely the pump is pulling 4 - 6 amps an hour so times that by your working day and you have your daily amps use.
The 15 amps a day Spruce is using is a using of a very efficient system I would suggest 20 amps a day is more common.
So with your 110 AH battery you have a usable capacity of 55 amps or approx 2 - 2.5 days. Letting the capacity fall much lower will damage the cells.
As Amps fall so do the Volts. The volts will not fall as fast as the amps. If with no load the start voltage is 12.4, Under load with the pump on you can expect to see volts fall by as much as 0.4 of a volt. The battery voltage will remain constant for 3 - 4 hours then begin to fall off, Another 2 - 3 hours would see a dramatic fall off in volts. http://www.springltd.co/node/139
A source of volt drop can be worn cables and connectors and or very long runs of cable. A sign of damaged connectors is them becoming very hot. As the connector heats up its resistance to current increases leading to a drop of volts along the length of the cable.
My gut feel with the battery you have is that it was likely not fully charged when you received it, add to that running the battery a number of days before it was charged taking capacity below the 50% mark. It is likely the cells have become coated with crystalises sulphur which hardens and impedes the cells ability to hold a charge.
I found this article explains it well Battery Basics: http://www.progressivedyn.com/battery_basics.html
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Thanks for shedding so light on the subject,Ian.
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This is the one i have used for nearly 2 years every single day and has never needed to be re-charged by plug, i have a spring controller with split relay and charges it enough to not need me to do anything!
£78.50 inc vat and next day delivery and there good battery's you cant go far wrong at that price.
http://www.battery2u.co.uk/Numax-Leisure-Batteries-XV31MF.aspx
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Numax are good batteries.
I cannot wait for Li Ion batteries to be in common use as the will be perfect for our industry.
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Numax are good batteries.
I cannot wait for Li Ion batteries to be in common use as the will be perfect for our industry.
and how's this?
http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/fords-new-lithium-ion-battery-may-send-traditional-lead-acid-units-scrap-heap/
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LI ION is the way forward the day they are decent price I am in. They charge faster than any other and you can discharge 75% before they stop and loose power. I am trying to get a second hand Li ion yacht battery as they are amazing. They are much smaller, lighter and have more capacity than gel or acid lead.
I have friend servicing catamarans in U She was telling me how they can reduce 1000amp hour batteries by 60 % of the weight of a 800amp hour battery bank. and give double the useable power. His web site is Just Catamarans take a look at the video of the fit.