Clean It Up
UK General Cleaning Forum => General Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: cleaning4usussex on October 30, 2014, 09:04:00 pm
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just researching and looking into buying a fall arrest harness system for cleaning roofs etc any good recommendations ? Most only come with 2 mtr land line is that enough to move about or do you have to keep moving ladder along?
Jamie
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2 meters is supposed to be the max length you can fall without killing yourself :-X
Hire high access equipment for a better and safer job
(http://i1045.photobucket.com/albums/b458/huxleyhobbs/3c46c2291340ce42f77b7342e919cbda_zps4059c9e3.jpg)
Darran
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The customer only wants the moss scraped off then treated with mossgo or algoclear etc I thought roof ladder up roof with fall arrest attached would this not be very compliant with health and saftey?
Jamie
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Also got another roof job where they just want some tiles replaced so I thought it would be good for this also
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Roof ladder and fall arrest is health and safety compliant if all the necessary risks have been accessed, along with using correct ladders that have been inspected.
It's not for me to say, but I'd not ever fanny about with scraping a roof, long winded, hard work, dangerous, and the results even with algoclear don't compare to pressure washing it.
Darran
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Company called spanset do harness traing course through HSS.
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I've been on the Spanset course a few times. They can tailor your training to your needs.
Fall arrest should really be a last resort. You should be looking at a system that stops you falling in the first place if at all possible
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We use these http://www.fallarrest.co.uk/fall-arrest-blocks/rga4-three-way-15-metre-wire-fall-arrest-and-rescure-block?utm_source=shopping_feed&utm_medium=google&utm_term=Ridgegear+RGA4+Three+Way+15+Metre+Wire+Fall+Arrest+and+Rescure+Block&utm_campaign=main&gclid=CjwKEAjww8eiBRCE7qvK9Z7W_DgSJABfOjf2Y50FOvHTlsUGLoRLjDJSDW5WwE1mqhWmtX-eJ6fKoBoCpiDw_wcB#.VFMxIfmsWSo
And
http://www.fallarrest.co.uk/belts-and-work-positioning/rgp4-fibre-wire-pole-strap#.VFMxh_msWSo
We scrape roofs and apply Algo clear
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Hi Chris what do you use for cleaning of roofs or spraying roofs?
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Hi Chris what do you use for cleaning of roofs or spraying roofs?
Do you have a telephone number ? It would be easier to answer your questions.
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As you say to Kevin
'Tell us on here so we can all learn from your experience. Help everyone out.
Are you frightened of giving trade secrets away. He's asking you about cleaning a roof not what goes on at GCHQ
Rob ;D
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Can't be bothered typing ( cleaning/accessing domestic roofs is fairly complex ).... but I appreciate your point.
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Give a man enough rope.... you know the rest.
Enough of this idle chatter. I would rather stare at a blank wall!!
Rob ;D
A change from your usual occupation of licking windows? Thats what I like to see somebody diversifying...is your business moving in a different direction ?
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Only three people .....I'm losing my touch. :o I think you have mistaken me for somebody who cares.
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I don't mistake you for anything other than what you are!
Rob ;D
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Oops have I started a domestic!!!!
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Oops have I started a domestic!!!!
;D
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Are there any harnesses to watch out for ?
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Are there any harnesses to watch out for ?
in terms of what..brands ,type?
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Cleaning4
SpanSet are one of my clients, we cleaned their skylights late last year.
I bought four harnesses from them, very good make, very well made.
Rob ;D
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Yes brands , types you can buy ones for £30 and then there was the one you showed me Chris which is out of my price range at the moment I don't mind buying a good harness which will last and do the job properly but this roof clean is only priced at £500 it's quite flat with large interlocking tiles you can walk on most roofers would go up without a harness but I value my life :)
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I will look into spanset do you know how much they cost approx rob
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We use a 2 rope system, same as Mike Roberts on here. Got all the gear from www.totalaccess.co.uk
Very helpful. Got 2 lengths of rope, harness, all the caribiners and two rope grabs. Works well and dont need to move the ladder around.
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You want a two point harness.
Definitely no need to spend a lot of money. I think mine were £60.00 each but they do cheaper ones. They have to be of quality but whichever you buy they have a lifespan, generally of five years.
They are all dated and have a final date on them as well.
I have three in the unit that we can no longer use on my works as we have to show the conformity sheets.
Rob ;D
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A rope grab is more important than the harness... Drill and rawlbolt the wall and/or tie it to something solid/heavy. Roof ladders are handy (hire them)
Here this has all the access gear you will need.... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fall-arrest-kit-/221589502700?pt=UK_H_G_Ladders_RL&hash=item3397c37aec
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I am the highest bidder! :)
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I am the highest bidder! :)
;D
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If I win these on eBay these will do me so I can get used to them then I can upgrade as I need to,😀
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You will not need to upgrade...it's got everything you need.
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Thanks
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Nice to see nothing has changed.
Why would anyone recommend a 2nd hand rope system ?
Why would anyone buy a second hand system ? The only item which is usable is the rope bag !
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Have to agree with greatoutdoors here. Make sure you get all the paperwork and safety check sheets with the ebay ropes. Otherwise you dont know how old how worn etc.. when i bought all my rope stuff i made up safety check sheets on the computer that i fill out every time i use the equipment.
You could buy all that new cor a couple hundred quid and then you have piece of mind.
Welcome back Mike ;D
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Mike has been absent for some time now but it is good to see that he is back and that he has highlighted the potential problems if the second hand system is purchased.
Solid advice from Mike & Matt
Rob ;D
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They are all secondhand once you have used them once. Common sense would suggest you don't use anything damaged... I have three harness sets all from ebay ...all as brand new .
I would worry more about what it is attached too.
If you are employing somebody to go on the roof for you ....you will need to reconsider all of the above.
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Backtrack - to completely change what you think or say about something
Rob ;D
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If I got into larger projects would none of it be ok to use ? If older than 5 years ?
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These things are covered by conformity records.
Date made
Date 1st used
Date of last use
As has been pointed out, you have no idea of the history, if a lanyard (harness) has a fall on it it should be replaced. It might look ok but this is what should happen.
If you get into larger projects, commercial? - you won't be using rope systems!
Spend the money on 'new' kit. It is there to potentially save your life.
Phone your insurance company up and see where you stand if you buy the Ebay set up!!
Rob ;D
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By the look of it you are going to be buying the Ebay set up as well, you're the only bidder
Rob ;D
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Records need to be a bit more than dates. You need to have check boxes, visual inspections etc.. and as Rob said, if you get into commercial work, then you don't want to be using second hand stuff, but i also agree with Chris, that once you use something, it becomes second hand, but at least you know how it has been used from new.
I think you can use ropes in any scenario, commercial or domestic, as long as its a professional set up, but if you go into commercial work, using ropes, you WILL need up to date records, with daily checks etc of all rope equip.
Common sense is the key here.
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If I got into larger projects would none of it be ok to use ? If older than 5 years ?
Hse recommend it is inspected by a "professional service " every 6 months . You will need paper work to prove this in the event of something happening/ and or inspection by Hse/insurance company.
So Strictly speaking if it is 6 months old with no " professional inspection records " you should not be using it.
Bearing this in mind "paperwork" does not make the equipment safe to use. It is down to how the operator is rigging it and the condition of the equipment at the "time" of use. If it was inspected 12 hours it could still be damaged when you come to use it!!
Remember most paper work is in place as a checklist for Muppets and so "somebody" has got "someone" to blame...nobody wants to be responsible for there own actions .
Just make sure your anchor point is solid.... tree,van,rawlbolts....we have used water drums in tonne bags.
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Matt
You are correct. A rope system could not be used on my works.
I have a Product history card in front of me
It has an inspection record on the back and you can check them yourself but must fill the card in.
The problem with the HSE statement is that they 'recommend' but it is not something that has to be done.
I know the history of all of my harnesses, the cards are up to date and I am covered to check them as per guidelines
http://simplifiedsafety.co.uk/solutions/fall_arrest_harness/how_do_i_inspect_my_harness/
A very useful topic.
Rob ;D
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Only came back to look at something which came to my attention.
Second hand argument is a nonsense, you do not know the history of the eBay stuff full stop hence To any pro it's worth less. No pro would buy a second hand harness ,Only other advice I will give u is log off this site and do some simple research a lot of posts on here are simply nonsense, the post ref roof coating was hilarious 4lts lol
Chris has totally changed his tune yet guys still take his advice ref moss kill , wake up
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Only came back to look at something which came to me attention.
Second hand argument is a nonsense, you do not know the history of the eBay stuff full stop hence To any pro it's worth less. No pro would buy a second hand harness ,Only other advice I will give u is log off this site and do some simple research a lot of posts on here are simply nonsense, the post ref roof coating was hilarious 4lts lol
Chris has totally changed his tune yet guys still take his advice ref moss kill , wake up
"totally changed his tune" Have I ...in what respect ?
Enter Rob....
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(http://i61.tinypic.com/2ykh01s.jpg)
Rob ;D
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Maximum lifespan of a harness is 10 years, but 5 years from the date first used
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Chris,
Would I be able to give you a ring about the roofs as well please.
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Chris,
Would I be able to give you a ring about the roofs as well please.
No problem....although according to this lot I don't have a clue and according to Mike have changed my views on roof cleaning. ;D
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Chris,
Would I be able to give you a ring about the roofs as well please.
have a look on eBay you might be in luck ;D
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Chris,
Would I be able to give you a ring about the roofs as well please.
have a look on eBay you might be in luck ;D
Mike ...I had a quick look . Is it a book or Dvd?
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Only came back to look at something which came to me attention.
Second hand argument is a nonsense, you do not know the history of the eBay stuff full stop hence To any pro it's worth less. No pro would buy a second hand harness ,Only other advice I will give u is log off this site and do some simple research a lot of posts on here are simply nonsense, the post ref roof coating was hilarious 4lts lol
Chris has totally changed his tune yet guys still take his advice ref moss kill , wake up
"totally changed his tune" Have I ...in what respect ?
Enter Rob....
suggest u read ur posts, at one stage u recommend an eBay item after neg comments you quote Hs regs which conflicts with ur rec completely.
To be honest I really don't give a damn if some brainless muppet wants to use second hand poop, whatever... Nice to back ;D
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Only came back to look at something which came to me attention.
Second hand argument is a nonsense, you do not know the history of the eBay stuff full stop hence To any pro it's worth less. No pro would buy a second hand harness ,Only other advice I will give u is log off this site and do some simple research a lot of posts on here are simply nonsense, the post ref roof coating was hilarious 4lts lol
Chris has totally changed his tune yet guys still take his advice ref moss kill , wake up
"totally changed his tune" Have I ...in what respect ?
Enter Rob....
suggest u read ur posts, at one stage u recommend an eBay item after neg comments you quote Hs regs which conflicts with ur rec completely.
To be honest I really don't give a damn if some brainless muppet wants to use second hand poop, whatever... Nice to back ;D
In English please ?
I suggested that if the harness was in good order (after he had given it a visual inspection) than it would be Ok for his own personal use.
If he is sending an employee up there to clean the roof it is a whole different ball game .
Mike who actually does the cleaning for you and for what reason?
I fail to see where I have changed my views on cleaning roofs... I adopt both methods but prefer Softwashing.
Sealing Concrete roofs I use a clear water based acrylic....Slate and Rosemarys a water-based Fluoropolymer.
My song remains the same ;D
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Can you show me where you said - 'I suggested that if the harness was in good order (after he had given it a visual inspection) then it would be ok for personal use'
I can't see it in any posts. I have removed posts as they detract from what is a very important topic. I see that some of your wording has been altered after the posts have been posted. You do alter your posts a great deal
Rob ;D
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They are all secondhand once you have used them once. Common sense would suggest you don't use anything damaged... I have three harness sets all from ebay ...all as brand new .
I would worry more about what it is attached too.
If you are employing somebody to go on the roof for you ....you will need to reconsider all of the above.
Here
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I can't see that in what has been said there.
Anyway - Despite changing the nozzle on my MSR Dragonfly I still get a sputtering fuel supply and a lack of ongoing flame, do you know what is wrong with it Christopher?
Rob ;D
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I cook hedgehogs on a camp fire...so can;t help you there
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Thankyou - I thought you may have googled for the info.
Through your suggestion Cleaning4 is now in a situation where he is purchasing an inadequate safe system - would you agree with that?
Do you think his insurance company will accept that 'Chris Scott told me it would be ok'?
Is using barrels of water in a 1 tonne bag something that you would put down on a MS? Would that cover you as a safe working practice, in relation to how your insurance would see it?
Rob ;D
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A rope grab is more important than the harness... Drill and rawlbolt the wall and/or tie it to something solid/heavy. Roof ladders are handy (hire them)
Here this has all the access gear you will need.... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fall-arrest-kit-/221589502700?pt=UK_H_G_Ladders_RL&hash=item3397c37aec
This has been changed, utilising barrels has been removed. That is correct isn't it?
Rob ;D
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If I got into larger projects would none of it be ok to use ? If older than 5 years ?
Hse recommend it is inspected by a "professional service " every 6 months . You will need paper work to prove this in the event of something happening/ and or inspection by Hse/insurance company.
So Strictly speaking if it is 6 months old with no " professional inspection records " you should not be using it.
Bearing this in mind "paperwork" does not make the equipment safe to use. It is down to how the operator is rigging it and the condition of the equipment at the "time" of use. If it was inspected 12 hours it could still be damaged when you come to use it!!
Remember most paper work is in place as a checklist for Muppets and so "somebody" has got "someone" to blame...nobody wants to be responsible for there own actions .
Just make sure your anchor point is solid.... tree,van,rawlbolts....we have used water drums in tonne bags.
No it's here ....Along with tie it to a tree or a van or drill and rawlbolt the wall.
It is adequate...but he will have to purchase it to determine whether the condition is suitable .
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You two should get in a ring, and go toe to toe for five rounds ;D
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I can't see that in what has been said there.
Anyway - Despite changing the nozzle on my MSR Dragonfly I still get a sputtering fuel supply and a lack of ongoing flame, do you know what is wrong with it Christopher?
Rob ;D
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51092 I thought you tree huggin, rambling, boot polishing, Daily express readers only walked a mile between the car and a pub. What fuel do you use in your tilley lamp pot noodle water boiler
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I know the answer but I wonder if you do?
If you spoke to your insurance company (you do have insurance don't you?) would they say that was an acceptable methodology and do you feel confident giving out such advice as that and tying your set up to an anchor point such as a van, tree is 'sound and good' advice?
I don't know how Mike or Matt 'anchors' their set up but I am sure it would be with bolts as a minimum of standard. They are both professionals and though I don't use a rope system at all I would only work from a drilled anchor point if I had to do it this way. They may do it another way! but irrespective of how it is carried out it must be acceptable to insurers, particularly if (god forbid) you need to action the policy.
I clean all of my roofs from MEWP. I have just looked at another roof clean that has been priced to include an 85 MEWP and the plan is to boom across the ridge and drop down the other side of both buildings.
Looking at the way you give out advice and what is in that advice would tell me that you don't fit the title of 'professional'.
Now that may be personal and your level of professional is clearly different to mine and you may not see there are levels of service that are above your level, by a long way.
I would suggest you stop giving out 'bad' advice and think before you engage your frustrated viewpoint
Have a good evening 'stetson' boy
(http://i62.tinypic.com/30m47kp.gif). Does this fit?
Rob ;D
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Carl
I don't buy that trash, I'm a Times sort of 'chap' ;)
Rob ;D
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I forgot tying round the chimney stack ....
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Yeeehaaaaaa
Do you lasso the rope over the chimney?
Amended after posting - you haven't answered any of my questions. Why's that?
Rob ;D
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Yes... it is a sort of Lasso that goes round the chimney.
Yes ...I feel confident in saying tie your rope to a sound anchor point ...something that wont move if you slip.
The rest of your "questions are statements" telling me how good you are.
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Through your suggestion Cleaning4 is now in a situation where he is purchasing an inadequate safe system - would you agree with that?
Do you think his insurance company will accept that 'Chris Scott told me it would be ok'?
Is using barrels of water in a 1 tonne bag something that you would put down on a MS? Would that cover you as a safe working practice, in relation to how your insurance would see it?
Are these about me? They remain unanswered!
Rob ;D
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As discussed the system he is about to purchase is an adequate harness system...the condition needs to be inspected before use.... As would a brand new one .
"Chris scott told me it would be ok"... Why would his or any insurance company be bothered about what I ,you or anybody else said?
Even when I was a kid "he made me do it" ...never was the correct answer.
I wouldn't have clue what my insurance consider "safe working practice" ...if something goes wrong ,they are a law unto themselves.
You seem to see insurance as "insurance against" something going wrong ..it is not.
If the the 2 ton van is the safest thing to tie off to... thats what happens. If the wall needs drilling and bolting thats what happens...Sometimes I "lasso" the chimney ( Same with the one ton bag.)
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You carry on with your 'sound' advice and 'of a level' working practises.
You have after all got 14 websites ;)
What are the web addresses out of interest?
Rob ;D
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What have I started 😁😁😁😁
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Why is a window cleaner like yourself Rob interested in what I am up to ...maybe looking for another add-on?
I am getting bored of you ...although it has been funny in parts. ;D ;D
So from now on to retain the integrity of the site in general and for the sake of other users ...I am going to refrain from taking part in any discussion with you.
Please don't take this as "I have spat my dummy out " far from it.... genuinely it is that I am bored of you.
If you ever need advice... on anything (even the size of your nozzle) please feel free to call me ...or use one of my 14 websites to get in touch .
I will be always there for you....but as I say you bore me ...so it's over. xxx
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Only came back to look at something which came to me attention.
Second hand argument is a nonsense, you do not know the history of the eBay stuff full stop hence To any pro it's worth less. No pro would buy a second hand harness ,Only other advice I will give u is log off this site and do some simple research a lot of posts on here are simply nonsense, the post ref roof coating was hilarious 4lts lol
Chris has totally changed his tune yet guys still take his advice ref moss kill , wake up
"totally changed his tune" Have I ...in what respect ?
Enter Rob....
suggest u read ur posts, at one stage u recommend an eBay item after neg comments you quote Hs regs which conflicts with ur rec completely.
To be honest I really don't give a damn if some brainless muppet wants to use second hand poop, whatever... Nice to back ;D
In English please ?
I suggested that if the harness was in good order (after he had given it a visual inspection) than it would be Ok for his own personal use.
If he is sending an employee up there to clean the roof it is a whole different ball game .
Mike who actually does the cleaning for you and for what reason?
I fail to see where I have changed my views on cleaning roofs... I adopt both methods but prefer Softwashing.
Sealing Concrete roofs I use a clear water based acrylic....Slate and Rosemarys a water-based Fluoropolymer.
My song remains the same ;D
The point is you simply don't know the history of the harness, hence its useless. A visual inspection is worthless unless you can trace / show its history.
Why should it make a difference who goes up there ? Surely you want to use a system that's safe !
The statement you have changed your tune is in respect to the ebay item you recommended and not your roof cleaning methods.
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(http://i57.tinypic.com/10h1xg1.jpg)
Boo hoo - I can give it but I can't take it -
(http://i57.tinypic.com/j163ir.jpg) - Is this you?
When you start playing the smart arse games you think you can play on here, thinking you're clever you have to understand that none of us are stupid and if you don't like a little banter then you shouldn't give it out.
I know I have got right up your nose -
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2h2qkxw.jpg)
Have a great day
Rob ;D
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What a bunch a fannies...
Get a grip lads, its the internet...
Re read the whole thread, look at yourselves in the mirror, and then ask yourself ''am i actually a grown up, or did i just throw a b1tch fit on the internet like a 13year old school girl...
You're so keen to measure thingyes that the bloke asking for help as no idea now...well done
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(http://i57.tinypic.com/2h2qkxw.jpg)
I have thoroughly enjoyed myself.
Rob ;D
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Damn it that was the wrong one.
Here you go -
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2qnnl08.jpg)
Rob ;D
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Mike
Whilst I appreciate your views on traceability of the harness ...ultimately it is a visual inspection that you are relying on before it is deemed safe to use.
If you as an employer are sending somebody up on the roof to clean....then it's a completely different set of "rules" than doing it yourself. Granted the gear your using still needs to be safe.
I have bought several harness,chimney anchorage systems,fall arrest/recovery blocks etc that have been in "as new" condition and I have no hesitation in using them.
I think that say... the fall arrest/blocks are around £650 each new...if I had to pay that we would not have them. I have bought secondhand" as new" so we have them.
So now we have rope access and the addition of fall arrest with recovery.
Tying off we have drums in bags,we use trees,vans, Eyes bolted into masonry,chimney anchorage systems (Robs lasso) Tirfor ground anchors. We have these ..but I don't trust them http://simplifiedsafety.com/store/fall-protection/anchor-points/concrete-anchors/concrete-anchor-10k-or-5k.html
The only thing we struggle with that I need to find a solution for is temporary edge protection ....what do you use?
If cleaning 4u is on a budget I see no problem in using second hand safety equpment providing it is in good order. We all take risks every day...we can reduce risk yes but we still take them.
I hope the seatbelts in the van work when I need them ...I bought them secondhand ;D
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Mike
Whilst I appreciate your views on traceability of the harness ...ultimately it is a visual inspection that you are relying on before it is deemed safe to use.
If you as an employer are sending somebody up on the roof to clean....then it's a completely different set of "rules" than doing it yourself. Granted the gear your using still needs to be safe.
I have bought several harness,chimney anchorage systems,fall arrest/recovery blocks etc that have been in "as new" condition and I have no hesitation in using them.
I think that say... the fall arrest/blocks are around £650 each new...if I had to pay that we would not have them. I have bought secondhand" as new" so we have them.
So now we have rope access and the addition of fall arrest with recovery.
Tying off we have drums in bags,we use trees,vans, Eyes bolted into masonry,chimney anchorage systems (Robs lasso) Tirfor ground anchors. We have these ..but I don't trust them http://simplifiedsafety.com/store/fall-protection/anchor-points/concrete-anchors/concrete-anchor-10k-or-5k.html
The only thing we struggle with that I need to find a solution for is temporary edge protection ....what do you use?
If cleaning 4u is on a budget I see no problem in using second hand safety equpment providing it is in good order. We all take risks every day...we can reduce risk yes but we still take them.
I hope the seatbelts in the van work when I need them ...I bought them secondhand ;D
LOOK Not going to keep going over this as we all have better things to be doing! Our opinion differs greatly, If your on a budget and you cant afford decent kit then don't do roof cleaning ... simples.
Ref to edge it would be classed as short duration working, we stay at least 1m away whilst cleaning using suitably positioned anchor point, gables are cleaned via ground using telescopic s.
As for a decent harness - Navaho Bod Full Sternal Harness gives you far more comfort whilst using ropes compared to the std harness
Matt has supplied the guy with everything he needs
Thats my lot :)
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No problem ;D
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLWgbZgkpZc
;D
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I'm still the highest bidder😁😁😁😁😁😁😁
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLWgbZgkpZc
;D
Excellent safety video ...showing a visual inspection before use.
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I've watched the video several times - I would tie the rope round the tow bar ;D
I am going to out bid everyone on all that safety equipment on e bay and destroy it to rid the world of unsafe safety equipment and get this forum back to the real threads that really matter and stop all this bitching.
Now how can we stop the green spots coming through creosote ::)roll
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;D
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16hrs to go and still the highest bidder
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I will look into spanset do you know how much they cost approx rob
I think it's about £150 plus vat
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16hrs to go and still the highest bidder
You must be getting worried by now
Darran
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watch this too http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JRG-self-retracting-Life-line-harness-fall-arrester-/311158492817?pt=UK_BOI_ProtectiveGear_RL&hash=item48727dce91
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😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁
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Not getting into a debate here but the manufacturers don't reccomend SRL 's for
Roof work...
I'm confused as to why you are reccomend ing this type of equipment, ?
Darran
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Darren
It's just easier to not ask the obvious sometimes ;D
Rob ;D
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What is an srl?
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Not getting into a debate here but the manufacturers don't reccomend SRL 's for
Roof work...
I'm confused as to why you are reccomend ing this type of equipment, ?
Darran
We use them when the building is scaffold-ed .Sometimes we clean from gutter level depending on the type of roof .
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https://www.millerfallprotection.com/smart-solutions/connecting-devices/self-retracting-lifelines
Darran
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This looks good too if you substitute items 5 for a couple of Rawlbolts and anchor rings.
https://www.millerfallprotection.com/fall-protection-products/horizontal-lifeline-systems/miller-techline-hll-kits-for-residential-construction
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I got out bidded ! After all that! 😃
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Just aswell I don't think I could take the stick on here if you had won it. ;D
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How much did outbid him by then Chris?
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Lol, think I will buy a new one but not sure what else to buy I want to be able to go up onto a flatish roof and be able to walk around safely
It sold for £72.00 in the end!