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UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: Leeds on September 29, 2014, 12:37:37 pm

Title: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Leeds on September 29, 2014, 12:37:37 pm
Hi Guys,

I'm buying a domestic round. What would i need from the other window cleaner to put on my books, so i can write it down as an expense? Like an invoice or something?

Thank you

Meridion
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: colin purewater on September 29, 2014, 01:13:21 pm
Just a receipt stateing what you have bought
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Leeds on September 29, 2014, 01:25:34 pm
Just a receipt stateing what you have bought

Thank you Colin.

Will a hand written receipt do? (This guy isn't technical haha)
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Jonny 87 on September 29, 2014, 01:49:18 pm
Hi Guys,

I'm buying a domestic round. What would i need from the other window cleaner to put on my books, so i can write it down as an expense? Like an invoice or something?

Thank you

Meridion

Technically buying a round cannot be counted as a business expense even with a receipt.

If your accountant plays exactly by the law that is.
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Leeds on September 29, 2014, 02:01:42 pm
Hi Guys,

I'm buying a domestic round. What would i need from the other window cleaner to put on my books, so i can write it down as an expense? Like an invoice or something?

Thank you

Meridion

Technically buying a round cannot be counted as a business expense even with a receipt.

If your accountant plays exactly by the law that is.

Really? How Come?
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Jonny 87 on September 29, 2014, 02:18:17 pm
I forget actually how it was explained now, but my accountant worded it along the lines of that your not physically buying anything that hmrc can see as an asset.

Essentially just a piece of paper with names and adresses isn't something you can claim as a business expense.

Mayb someone else on here more clued up can explain it better?

My accountant is always spot on with these kinds of things though and does things exactly by the book.
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Smudger on September 29, 2014, 02:40:34 pm
i think its because you are buying "goodwill" now of course he sold you window cleaning equipment on the receipt this would something you could use i think ;)
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: steve rix on September 29, 2014, 02:43:17 pm
Tell the seller to give you a reciept for equipment, ladders , poles etc and put that through the books
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Leeds on September 29, 2014, 02:46:30 pm
i think its because you are buying "goodwill" now of course he sold you window cleaning equipment on the receipt this would something you could use i think ;)

As a matter of fact, I am actually buying some gear off him as well. Might just get him to include the round in the price.

Meridion
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Jonny 87 on September 29, 2014, 02:50:40 pm
Just be careful if you ever get investigated by the tax man. Lol
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Leeds on September 29, 2014, 03:50:41 pm
Just be careful if you ever get investigated by the tax man. Lol

It works out alright though, cos he is selling me a Water fed system with a HEAVY discount (friends), so i'll say to him to sell me it for full price, and that should cover some of the cost right?

Meridion
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Smudger on September 29, 2014, 04:04:29 pm
Just have a list of equipment you buy off him with the price of the round,

Who are you to know the equipment is only worth £36.75 when paying £6000

Point the tax man in the general direction of ionics for vastly overinflated prices 😄

Darran
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: clarkson on September 29, 2014, 04:56:18 pm
Hi
I don't think that's quit right.

It is good will and although not a tangible asset it is an legitimate expense. It is not a
List of numbers it is a business transfer with a customer base.

I do think though it is put on your balance sheet as a capital expense . Not straight of your profit and loss

With regards to receipt as long as it has name and address I think it would be fine although a payment trail ie pay by cheque or bank transfer so you can prove the money changed hands would be good
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Spruce on September 29, 2014, 10:20:40 pm
Why not phone the tax man and find out then you will know for sure.

I also know that it is classed as 'goodwill' and not tax deductable as I was told that. However, as Darran says, it works to your benefit as you won't pay tax on it at the other end when you decide to sell it in the future. It should be worth a lot more 'goodwill' then.



Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: PoleKing on September 29, 2014, 10:40:22 pm
Not to contradict anyone.
And I can only speak from my own experience buying my round nearly 12 years ago (so things may have changed)
I could not write down the cost of the round as it wasn't a tangible asset.
But the guy who sold it to me-he had to pay tax on the money I paid him as the money I paid him was income.
That's what we were told. So we didn't do that.
On paper, I bought the van, system, equipment etc for the total cost.
The round wasn't even mentioned in the paperwork.
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: 8weekly on September 30, 2014, 07:36:00 am
It sounds extremely unlikely that you can't offset the cost of buying a business off someone. I do my own tax return and I would have no hesitation in adding it as an expense. I am sure you can't add it as a capital expense, but how does it differ to paying a canvasser to go out and knock you up a round?
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Jonny 87 on September 30, 2014, 07:38:23 am
It sounds extremely unlikely that you can't offset the cost of buying a business off someone. I do my own tax return and I would have no hesitation in adding it as an expense. I am sure you can't add it as a capital expense, but how does it differ to paying a canvasser to go out and knock you up a round?

It does seem a bit unfair, but too that many accountants can't all be wrong. :)

Mayb you can't even deduct a canvassers wage. I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Roy Harding on September 30, 2014, 07:46:02 am
So If you bought for instance a round for a £1,000 you cant claim it?

Then 3wks later you sold it for £4,000 you would not pay tax?

Slightly different I know but I told my account I had sold 11 doberman puppies for £500 each. He said if the tax man wanted a part of that, then they would have to allow all keep of the dog, including the purchase price etc for the last 3 years.

Roy
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Smudger on September 30, 2014, 08:42:26 am
Selling a litter of pups can easily be classed as a hobby. So the situation is different but of course if you were claiming the vet bills, food etc as expenses then yes you would need to declare the sales as income.

When buying a biz, you can only buy physical things, ie premises, stock, equipment in the customers or contracts are only viewed in relation to the value of that biz.

Customers may leave or go elsewhere so cannot be included as an expense

I worked for a company who were brought out for 8 million pounds, the premises was worth about 1 million, machinery a further 1.5 million but we had a full order book and work totalling 6 million
We were brought by a rival US company, and instantly closed down us down.
Basically they paid well over the top to take our work and kill off a rival company, the two owners were happy as they sold a company valued at around 3 million for 8
The tax man didn't go chasing about overpaying for a factory unit and machinery.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Darran
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Plankton on September 30, 2014, 10:50:17 am
I was told I couldn't include the Goodwill as I had no receipt although if I were to sell it then it would then count as income.
If your buying round and equipment from your mate and asking for a receipt then he would have to include it in his books.
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Roy Harding on September 30, 2014, 02:44:42 pm
Selling a litter of pups can easily be classed as a hobby. So the situation is different but of course if you were claiming the vet bills, food etc as expenses then yes you would need to declare the sales as income.

When buying a biz, you can only buy physical things, ie premises, stock, equipment in the customers or contracts are only viewed in relation to the value of that biz.

Customers may leave or go elsewhere so cannot be included as an expense

I worked for a company who were brought out for 8 million pounds, the premises was worth about 1 million, machinery a further 1.5 million but we had a full order book and work totalling 6 million
We were brought by a rival US company, and instantly closed down us down.
Basically they paid well over the top to take our work and kill off a rival company, the two owners were happy as they sold a company valued at around 3 million for 8
The tax man didn't go chasing about overpaying for a factory unit and machinery.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Darran

Hi Darran

I know what your saying. But if you purchased a round for a £1,000 and then sold it 4wks later for £4,000 you would be taxed on the £4,000 but you have not made £4,000 as you spent £1,000 to acquire it.

I could not see the tax office saying it was good will and keep all of the £4,000. What do you think?

Roy



Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Smudger on September 30, 2014, 04:09:14 pm
I think the point I'm trying to make is you don't buy a round for £1000.

Your buying cleaning equipment for £1000 (included in the sale is some paperwork)

You get a receipt that says you parted with a grand for cleaning equipment it can be listed or not on the receipt either way you have a genuine receipt.

The seller now pays tax on this as income and you have it as an expence then when you sell you pay tax on any profit.

Darran
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: martin hulstone on September 30, 2014, 04:38:31 pm
You cant offset work bought against any future tax bills,and thats that really. If you want to find ways around it do your homework rather than coming on here. The taxman reads these pages you know. lol
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: bobplum on September 30, 2014, 09:15:47 pm
Hi Guys,

I'm buying a domestic round. What would i need from the other window cleaner to put on my books, so i can write it down as an expense? Like an invoice or something?

Thank you

Meridion

Technically buying a round cannot be counted as a business expense even with a receipt.

If your accountant plays exactly by the law that is.
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: bobplum on September 30, 2014, 09:16:21 pm
ITS NOT AN EXPENSE
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Jonny 87 on September 30, 2014, 09:38:07 pm
ITS NOT AN EXPENSE

No need to shout.

 ;D
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Edge Clean on September 30, 2014, 11:33:34 pm
Are these possible solutions?

The purchase of Marketing mailing lists is a legitimate business, get the seller to sell you his customers as a marketing mailing list.

When you take over a round your not guaranteed to retain all the customers and the only way to know who you have of the list is to contact them all personally and sell your service to them. (that's your marketing angle covered)

Or

Get the seller to sell you the list as a list of customers that he has canvassed for you. Seems that enough window cleaners seem to pay canvassers to go find them work and can write that off as canvassing fees in their accounts.
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: Leeds on October 01, 2014, 04:02:44 pm
I drafted up a receipt for the Waterfed Pole System and Client Database for the price of the total sum. Don't see anything wrong in that. He's declaring it as a sale, and me as a purchase for the business. The tax man can take that as he likes.
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: g.brookes on October 01, 2014, 04:29:51 pm
i have just had this exact problem myself.
i can categorically say this is not an allowable expense for a sole trader.  If you are a limited company then its fine.
I have had countless phone calls with my accountant and the hmrc.  I have a lot of money to pay in back taxes currently, because i was previously advised it was an expense.
Be warned!
Title: Re: Buying Round, Deduct as Expense. How?
Post by: sunshine windies on October 01, 2014, 08:17:13 pm
Not to contradict anyone.
And I can only speak from my own experience buying my round nearly 12 years ago (so things may have changed)
I could not write down the cost of the round as it wasn't a tangible asset.
But the guy who sold it to me-he had to pay tax on the money I paid him as the money I paid him was income.
That's what we were told. So we didn't do that.
On paper, I bought the van, system, equipment etc for the total cost.
The round wasn't even mentioned in the paperwork.

+1