Clean It Up
UK Window Cleaning Forum => Window Cleaning Forum => Topic started by: stuart howes on April 09, 2006, 11:10:07 am
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::)Last week i was out window cleaning using my fab freedom wfp
so i got to the house stopped the van on the drive as it is on double yellows
put my 2 cones out pulled by bright yellow hose out and started to clean the front then this van pulled up and stopped out the front,one guy with a clip board got out :o oh here we go what have i done wrong i said to my self,so i carried on to the next window then he came up to me and said he was from the hse :-X i said is any thing wrong NO he said :D i am just going round looking for people that are still using ladders in an unsafe manner so i am all ok? yes he said i am so glad that people are taking note of the law so i started to ask him 100 Q the main things are .........
yes you can use a ladder if it is fixed to the wall so you can hook your ladder to it and he said i should have 2 yes 2 sand bags to put on the bottom rung to stop the ladder slipping out i said i have the ladder legs that do this ,yes but you still need the sand as well :-\also he said if you use a ladder you need to have a risk assesment of each ladder job that you can show to the hse if he stops you :o plus get this one he said as the law stands you should have a warning cone sign warning people of the warning signs you have out for your hose so i said i will get one van for my warning signs and a bod putting them all down the street and one van for my wfp :P plus the thing that got me was this ..he said that if a window cleaner was to die in a fall and the hse found that the cleaner was not following the rules the wife as in next of kin can be sued for breech of hse rules(if she is used for tax purposes as in if she is your PA at home doing your books ;)) so yes thay can even sue you when you are dead >:( plus one of my mates also a freedom user knows a cleaner that was stopped on a job my a hse guy that told him to get off his ladders and if he was seen going on them again he would may be fined so he had to go and get all wfpoled ££££££££££££££££££££ so yes they are fineing and stopping all window cleaners so get a loan get a wfp and get safe you are dead a long time 8) summers coming ;D 8) :P
stu
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I know you have got to have rules and regulations, but come on thats going a little too far!!!
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You want to see some of the window cleaners round our way that use ladders they dont have anything at the bottom of there ladders and there working 3 stories up ::). Mental.
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all i can say is any one says that to me will need health &safety themselves & i'll gladly pay any fine&compensation. i want to get wfp but because i want to not cos of any numb nuts nanny state
rant over, no offence to any one >:(
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I feel sorry for the lads in southern water area.
Your screwed if you use WFP and screwed if you use a Ladder. >:( >:(
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yes, give a man a clipboard and a badge and he will make up all sorts of rules and regs as he goes along
fix the ladder to the wall - 2 sand-bags - a sign to say beware of the sign - and another sign to say beware of the sign - beware of the sign - beware of the sign . . . . shheeeez !
beware of my clipboard, and did he park on double yellow lines and did you make a citizens arrest and give him a ticket after he couldnt show you his insurance, euro passport, proof of living blah blah blah ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
JohnL
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We all know what health and safety are here for
But i think they go over the top sometimes
Fix your ladder to the wall, 2 sand bags at the bottom this means when you fall off your ladder doesnt fall on top of you it stays in 1 place, the ladder doesnt have to slip or move for you to fall off.
Dont forget to look both ways when you cross the road, dont ever walk under a ladder bad luck
Dont cross someone on the stairs
Dont go over the speed limit
Smoking is dangerous
There are so many dangers in life we could go on forever
Brett ::)
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This is the world we live in now all we can do is grin an bear it!!! ;D >:(
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Sanf bags??? I mean sand bags!! :o
Doesn't he know there are proper devices out there to stop ladders slipping and so on?
And I thought it was only over a certain height that the ladder had to be fixed to the wall?
of course you also have to climb the lader to do this, by the time you have tied it off you will have cleaned the bloody window anyway!
What an earth sort of difference is a couple of sand bags going to make?
And come to that they will represent a hazard on descending the ladder too.
I actually find it hard to believe a health & safety officer would be daft enough to suggest putting a couple of sand bags on the ladder rungs!
Apparently most serious accidents occur on the first rung of the ladder, how stupid is it to put something on that rung that makes it even more unsafe!
And as for a warning sign to warn of a warning sign....
Ian
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Watch out Squeaky - they're a'comin for you! :D
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And I thought it was only over a certain height that the ladder had to be fixed to the wall?
of course you also have to climb the lader to do this, by the time you have tied it off you will have cleaned the bloody window anyway!
I think I understand what this chap was getting at;
The new regs require ladders to be "secured" before use - no exceptions. The regs spell out 3 ways to do this;
1) tying it to an existing structure
This is highlighted as the most effective method to prevent the ladder slipping (by far the most common cause of ladder accidents). This would be practical for say a building site or scaffolding, but not really for window cleaning unless you were using a roodsafe or something like it, but that requires eyebolt installation (www.roodsafe.com - see the image at the top)
2) an effective securing device
This is something like a rojak ladder stopper, ladder leveller, etc. The device must perform all of the necessary stabilizing functions; ie a ladder leveller will not be enough on its own if the ground is both uneven AND slippery.
3) Any other method of equal effectiveness
This includes, as an absolute last resort, footing by having someone stand on the bottom rung. I presume the man mentioned sand bags as an 'equally effective' measure, 2 bags perhaps being the weight of a person. The regs make a point of saying that "footing" is only permissable if the other two methods can't be employed.
The truth is, this has been on its way for some time. You just can't put a ladder against a building anymore and clean from it. First you have to be able to demonstrate that it wasnt possible to do it without working at height, then you have to "secure" the ladder in one of those ways. Not doing any of them could see you land a prohibition order from the HSE, or if there was a serious breach - a prosecution.
-Philip
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Well put Phillip,
I am actually in total agreement with you, but a couple of sandbags on the bottom rung also means a distinct hazzard, I don't think that is safe at all, one misplaced foot on the way down and crack goes an ankle! or any other bone if you fall badly :-\
I am personally 100% WFP, the only time I'll climb a ladder is for access only (flat roofs and so on).
I also think the writing is on the wall for ladders (regards working off them that is) but I don't have to think it is right!
Right, I'm off to hurl a ball as fast as I can at someone standing 22 yards away, I may not manage to damage anyone today, but someone will get hurt, smashed on the fingers, hit on the elbow, and someone will be hoping around when their toes get hit.
and of course if someone gets hit between the legs and collapses in agony everyone will fall about laughing.
Lets hope H & S don't get their teeth into cricket, I don't know anyone that hasn't been hurt playing that game :-\
Ian
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Humping 2 sand bags about will soon put your back out. Will you be able to sue the HSE for dangerous health & safety advice? What about if you slip/trip on them on the way down the ladder blah blah........?
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This is a good posting and i am sure these people are actually about as they are bored sat in their offics. I am not a window cleaner but a carpet cleaner who regularly runs two hoses, one 2 inch and one solution across pavements, but only put one yellow warning sign as provided by the machines manufacturer, so i assumed this must of been the legal requirment.
However when i took the dogs out for a walk with my wife the other day, there was a water fed pole being run from a van with a normal hose running across a pavement with no warning sign at all. Okay it was a car dealership on an industrial estate, but theres always one person about to trip up.
Dave
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Watch out Squeaky - they're a'comin for you! :D
now that i would like to see, by the time Squeaky had finished they would be appologising & trying to get away, hes got an answer for every thing. ;D
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Surely working on a house is private property? It is not commerical and ther public are not in danger in any way shape or form it's not even an issue???
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this is complet and uter b-----s
j really am surprised at what some of you guys are writing
yes risk assesments are a good thing even for domestic it can save silly accidents i am all for being safe but this is rediculas
the E U directive has not changed since last year so we are in no more trouble this year than we were last year ??
we work traditional and are seting up wfp system not because we have to but because some of our jobs would be well suted to the pole others will stay traditional
30 to 40% of our work in on new build we are a precent doing 7 difrent sites all same company and we have very good relations with 3 diffrent HSE construction officers and we use ladders on site to 3 story only thats why i say this is robbish if you supply me with the name of the officer or area you were pulled and date i will pass on this information and this topic to my HSE officer and ask for a writen reply this week. maybee he needs more training
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Stephen,
I am surprised you are allowed on a building site to work up a ladder up to 3rd floor.
I know that for Initial cleans you cannot use WFP, but the time is just about here when this work, on building sites in particular will have to be done off a platform of some desciption, either mobile or scaffolding.
If H & S Officers really are hunting down those such as window cleaners that are working off ladders then it has started to happen at least a year or two earlier than I personally expected.
It will come though, make no mistake.
As I've said elsewhere on the forum, where the reduction of risk is concerned, there is always another little step that can be taken, each step might be tiny, but it can and will be taken.
I don't agree with it, but it is true.
And every time there is a serious accident it will be pounced upon and used as an excuse to tighten up the rules.
Perceived risk and actual risk are two different animals, and it is the perceived risk that will hold sway where H & S are concerned.
There are of course thousands of accidents off ladders every year, and there are several deaths.
If you fall off a ladder you will hurt yourself, you might even kill yourself, or be crippled for life.
I've worked off ladders for 34 years (except for the last 2 ;D) and my worst accident was the ladder shooting uot from underneath me and I bruised both of my heels on landing.
I lost about 2 days off work as a result.
I've hopped over a wall and sprained my ankle too, I lost a week off work because of that one!
No ladders were involved there though!
You work off ladders for long enough, you WILL have an accident.
I had one in 34 years.
All manual work carries risk. try working on a farm!
H & S are continually trying to reduce that risk, nothing wrong with that is there?
1 death is too many...isn't it?
Well in one respect of course it is, but the handful that occur each year as a result of falls from ladders are acceptable.
Each individual one was in all likelihood avoidable, human error is usually the major factor, it is in just about all accidents.
There are something like 180,000 window cleaners in the UK and each year half a dozen will die as a result of falls from ladders.
that is only a tiny percentage.
How many of those 180,000 will have major car accidents?
Around 3000 will die in car accidents (not all window cleaners I hasten to add!!)
But H & S won't be happy with simply educating us to use ladders in the safest way possible, because no matter how much educating you do, accidents and deaths will still occur.
You won't eliminate all human error and complacency.
But stopping people working off ladders will eliminate a great many accidents.
On a building site they can turn around and say that initial cleaning should be done off the scafolding prior to it being taken down.
For all other window cleaning at height there is now the option of WFP, therefore they can virtually eliminate the risk of 180,000 window cleaners clogging up A & E :-\
It will come, they can and will stop us working off ladders.
Ian
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this is complet and uter b-----s
j really am surprised at what some of you guys are writing
yes risk assesments are a good thing even for domestic it can save silly accidents i am all for being safe but this is rediculas
the E U directive has not changed since last year so we are in no more trouble this year than we were last year ??
we work traditional and are seting up wfp system not because we have to but because some of our jobs would be well suted to the pole others will stay traditional
30 to 40% of our work in on new build we are a precent doing 7 difrent sites all same company and we have very good relations with 3 diffrent HSE construction officers and we use ladders on site to 3 story only thats why i say this is robbish if you supply me with the name of the officer or area you were pulled and date i will pass on this information and this topic to my HSE officer and ask for a writen reply this week. maybee he needs more training
Tell me if i'm wrong, but I thought that the bloke in charge of Health and Safety on a building site represented the construction company and not the HSE.
He therefore is the building controller and directly responsible for your H & S.
To allow you to do 3rd from ladders is very odd.
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The simple fact is; ladders are an easy target for the HSE.
Yes it is probably more dangerous driving to the job then climbing the ladder to clean windows. But they cannot ban Cars can they.
Only a few deaths on ladders a year: If you do not know the person or family it turns into a statistic after a few weeks. NOT FOR THE FAMILY they have to live with it for the rest of there lives.
How many suffer long term injuries that result in not been able to work and become dependent on the benefit system.
I may be cynical but its more about the cost of people sustaining long term injuries and becoming a financial drain on the National Health and the government.
It’s got nothing to do with the safety of ladder users its all about Money. Like I said ladders are an easy target.
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I have just spoken to the HSE, they have looked into this for me and said that they were not aware of anyone being instructed to look into window cleaners using ladders.
They said that there were no plans in the pipeline to stop window cleaners using ladders.
Specifically, they quoted the relevant section of the WAHR and said that as long as a risk assessment was done and that ladders were used safely, eg: secured if a device was available and had a secure footing that was sufficient, bearing in mind their duration of use, height etc.. (advised to read the WAHR and the safety leaflets - which I have done anyway). It was about safe and responsible use.
I think if you read the leaflets, make yourself aware of the risks, record your risk assessment and method statements and work safely and sensibly the HSE doesn't have a problem.
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i havent read the WAHD buti understood it to say that if the job can be done in a safer way than off a ladder then you had to do the job that way......i might have that wrong but if i am right then sesutton has been misinformed .....hasnt he????
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Hi billoz.
You really should read the work at height regulations and all of the safety leaflets issued by the HSE, and their press release concerning ladder use. I have.
If you still have any queries - give the HSE a call - I did.
For your information here are some relevant links - happy reading
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20050735.htm#sch6
http://www.hse.gov.uk/falls/ladders/evaluation.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2005/e05110.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2003/e03207.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/fallindx.htm
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/misc613.pdf
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thanks for the info but from what i read in reinforces what i said earlier
"These Regulations do not ban ladders but say they should be used only when all other safer alternatives for work at height have been ruled out. "
" ladders should not be the automatic first choice of access. They should only be used after a suitable assessment of the alternatives and the prevailing site conditions."
"Where external cleaning from height is the chosen
Method, using the safest equipment is the best
Approach to reducing risk. Ladders should not be an
Automatic choice and alternatives should always be
Considered first."
like i say very interesting to actually read though
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This is what you should be reading, as it says...HOT OF THE PRESS as the FWC had a meeting with the HSE last Sep which is a follow on from WAHD.
Andy
Page 13
http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/documents/WINDOW_TALK_JAN_2006.pdf
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I have also heard as it has not been published yet that the HSE will direct all
new companies that they must use WFP. All other companies have 2yrs to
change over.
Doug
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i have also spoken to the hse today an said the same thing to me as sesutton
i also read the first post and there answer was its a bit over the top isnt it
as for speculation and roumor mongering. frightering window cleaners into going wfp or trying to justify why you have gone wfp is not on.
the HSE said if any people have any concerns regarding legislation then look at the web site. and asked me to put a link up so hear it is http://www.hse.gov.uk/index.htm and also you can ring the information line 0845 345 0055 stop the roumours get the information first hand??? lets not hear i think. ive heard or its my interpritation.
as for the HSE officer, rogue officers are going around and are being looked into by the HSE and police the HSE are interested in this persons name and area HSE do not do on the spot fines regardles of what you have heard its allways a court case
quot
I have also heard as it has not been published yet that the HSE will direct all
new companies that they must use WFP. All other companies have 2yrs to
change over.
this is exactly what i have been on about
absalout B_______S
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This is what you should be reading, as it says...HOT OF THE PRESS as the FWC had a meeting with the HSE last Sep which is a follow on from WAHD.
Andy
Page 13
http://www.f-w-c.co.uk/documents/WINDOW_TALK_JAN_2006.pdf
Has anyone any comments on the transition period mentioned here?
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I have also heard as it has not been published yet that the HSE will direct all
new companies that they must use WFP. All other companies have 2yrs to
change over.
this is exactly what i have been on about
absalout B_______S
Stephen.
I have also heard about this from someone who I regard as a very reliable source. Two years to change over for existing businesses (dated from April 2005 I think so that gives until April 2007) and immediate compliance from any new business start-ups.
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just rang the HSE again and asked them this
i have heard that all new companies that they must use WFP. All other companies have 2yrs to change over.
ANSWER no sir this is not true and is not in the legislation as long as the new company conforms to the relevant working at hights act there will be no problem
tel no HSE info line 0845 345 0055
if you think or arnt shure get the info first hand call them
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Stephen,
As you know in any major company if you talk to the voice on the phone they
do not know what is going on up top.
This is not absurd, the big major companies in WFP and HSE ( not the telephone
operator but the top people ) are always in discussion.
The news has not been released yet, but a major WFP company has had this
info from the top people in HSE. So the guy on the phone will not even know yet,
nor anyone else within the Window cleaning industry.
I heard this with my own two ears so and I do not beleive he would have been
talkng rubbish as it is in his interests if this happens, they make WFP.
This is an open forum so if guys here news that will be of benefit to people then
its worth disclosing it as long as it is true. Hence why I disclosed it, I was not
told at the meeting to keep quiet.
As regards who the company is I will not disclose them as they regularly post
on here, so I will leave it up to them to hopefully keep us updated.
Cheers
Doug
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well said DA
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(dated from April 2005 I think so that gives until April 2007) and immediate compliance from any new business start-ups.
what date dose this read ???????
what is todays date?????
if guys here news that will be of benefit to people then
its worth disclosing it as long as it is true
to whose benifit ???????
how many wfp people do you think there are compared to traditional
who gives the wfp companies the right to talk to the HSE about ladders who is acting for the traditionalist ??????
how many other trades use ladders window cleaning is just a small proportion can you imagine no ladders for firemen
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in two years when the next window cleaning invention comes out will you start kicking the wfp people
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Stephen,
Stop ranting and do somthing useful.
Bear
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Sorry, but Stephen's absolutely right.
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i agree
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in two years when the next window cleaning invention comes out will you start kicking the wfp people
I merely passed on what I know as I thought it might be helpful to you.
As you clearly don't want to hear it, I don't think there's any point in me discussing with you any further on this issue.
Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger.
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I have also heard the very same thing about 2 years to change over and all new businesses that start up now don't have a choice.
Also from a very reliable source
Paul
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YES its time for change, it’s a changing industry, move with the times or get left behind, YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD
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I have also heard the very same thing about 2 years to change over and all new businesses that start up now don't have a choice.
Also from a very reliable source
I heard that this is what is happening in Holland, not here?
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Why waste time looking for this nonsense ??? If and when ladders are banned, every one concerned will know about it soon enough.